Question about Ravenloft - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Question about Ravenloft

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Oct 16, 2005 18:31:36 Hello all. I am writing because I have an important question I'm hoping you all can answer for me. I've always had a HUGE interest to play in the Ravenloft campaign setting since it first came out during 2.0. I never got to do so though. Just earlier today I decided to look at what was out there under the D20 Sword and Sorcery license for 3.5 because I'm still interested in playing in this setting. I know the stuff for 3.5 under these labels were produced by White Wolf because Wizards of the Coast gave them the license for a bit and now Wizards of the Coast has gotten the license back in recent days, making these White Wolf products dated/discontinued.

However, I looked through the D20 S&S Player's Guide and I saw a timeline of the demi-plane of Ravenloft there. In it there was a date for an event listed in the year 666 for when the first book of ezra was created. I was greatly disturbed by this. I have strong religious beliefs and this was kind of alarming to me. I am asking you all out there that are knowledgeable of Ravenloft if this timeline has ever appeared in any of the TSR Ravenloft products and if so did this particular date appear in there in the same year? Or can I chalk this up to something that White Wolf must have done? I'm sure this was on purpose because it is pretty obvious....did they do it for dark purposes since Ravenloft is supposed to be a dark gothic setting? I was struck by this date and disturbed because of my strong religious beliefs. I'm hoping this is something that White Wolf had done and that this is not the fault of White Wolf or earlier TSR products. Please help me. If this was White Wolf only I'll simply try to look through the TSR 2.0 stuff instead and anxiously await to see if Wizards of the Coast ever bring back this setting.

(Note: I have posted this in the Ravenloft forum also...in case someone yells this should be there instead of here. I am simply trying to get some answers)
#2
theredrobedwizard
Oct 16, 2005 19:21:26 Yes. Book of Ezra, Year 666. Which book this was originally published in, I don't remember. But I had seen it before the WW/SnS version came out. I remember a discussion with one of my players "way back when".

Player: "Huh, check this out."
Me: "What?"
Player: "The first Book of Ezra was published in the year 666."
Me: "Huh."
Player: "Ooo. Lookie here, spells."

-TRRW
#3
zombiegleemax
Oct 16, 2005 19:26:28 No..I did not take it that in that respect but ignorance can be bliss I guess. First of all we are talking about a dark, gothic setting with vampires, etc. Second of all, we are talking about White Wolf. WW have produced other such references in the past. Seeing that date in the book seemed like much more than a coincidence to me. They could have chosen the year 667 or the year 665 but no they chose that particular number. It seems purposeful to me. Also the Book of Ezra they mention there. If I'm not mistaken Ezra...isn't that the name if a book from the Bible? I'm just a bit concerned about them using this number when they could have chosen easily any other number...doesn't it seem a bit purposeful to you?

You are saying this same timeline appeared in the earlier TSR products that first introduced Ravenloft also? I'm pretty concerned about this and was hoping this was just something White Wolf did but it seems you are saying otherwise.
#4
RunningWilder
Oct 16, 2005 19:32:04
No..I did not take it that in that respect but ignorance can be bliss I guess. First of all we are talking about a dark, gothic setting with vampires, etc. Second of all, we are talking about White Wolf. WW have produced other such references in the past. Seeing that date in the book seemed like much more than a coincidence to me. They could have chosen the year 667 or the year 665 but no they chose that particular number. It seems purposeful to me. Also the Book of Ezra they mention there. If I'm not mistaken Ezra...isn't that the name if a book from the Bible? I'm just a bit concerned about them using this number when they could have chosen easily any other number...doesn't it seem a bit purposeful to you?

You are saying this same timeline appeared in the earlier TSR products that first introduced Ravenloft also? I'm pretty concerned about this and was hoping this was just something White Wolf did but it seems you are saying otherwise.

I answered on the other board. You know, I've had my book for almost five years now, and I never noticed the connection. I guess you only find what you're looking for. Sorry if they just looked at it like a number and didn't take the time not to worry you.
#5
theredrobedwizard
Oct 16, 2005 19:32:08 In regards to the above, I ninja-edited my post before Warduke was done posting his response. I was rather confrontational, so I went back and made it more public-appropriate. Sorry if I upset you, Warduke.

Maybe it was a coincidence, maybe it was by choice. Whatever the true answer is, well, that's what the answer is.

Ravenloft was TSR's "giving in to the stereotype" setting. Being dark and evil and evil just for the sake of it.

Ezra was a book of the bible, but I believe that the name was chosen simply because it sounded cool; not to attach any real world connotations to it. Unless the Ezra in the bible was a red-headed fighter/paladin/witch-hunter woman. In that case, it was probably based on her.

-TRRW
#6
zombiegleemax
Oct 16, 2005 19:38:37 I appreciate you making it more friendly. I'm not here to attack anything...I'm not attacking the setting. I was interested in Ravenloft as I said earlier. I just don't want to be involved with anything that is associated with something that is using that number in a diabolical way. If it is there as a coincidence or just as a number then fine. If it was put there on purpose for shock factor or for dark purposes then that is entirely different. I just wanted help is all. I really hope it isn't in the TSR stuff. If any of you have earlier TSR Ravenloft books can you let me know if this timeline is indeed in there anywhere and if the year 666 is in there? I'm interested in knowing.
#7
zombiegleemax
Oct 16, 2005 19:48:29 First and foremost as you all know Ezra is a Paladin and a diety. Here is some source websites incase you were wondering.

http://www.ravenloft.me.uk/Religion_Ezra.asp

666 Yakov Dilisnya found unconscious in a stream near the family estate, rages with fever for five days. When he recovers, he claims to have received a rapturous vision from and entity he calls Ezra, Our Guardian in the Mists. Yakov pens The First Book of Ezra, and begins his largely fruitless campaign to found a new religion in her name. [BoSec: Anchors of Faith]

this is located on http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/Wine_Cellar/RL_Timeline_JWM.doc

Its original source is from a netbook with a non-canon source.
#8
zombiegleemax
Oct 16, 2005 19:57:59 I appreciate your info guys. You have been most helpful. I am hoping this was just something that was in there without it being some kind of purposeful thing they did for the evil value of it. If so, I can deal with it. If it is something accidental of something like that then I can deal with that.
#9
androcus_divinicus_02
Oct 17, 2005 4:20:28 I am a bit perplexed as to how, exactly, the year 666 bothers you. I'm assuming that your "strong religious beliefs" are Christian. Well, as a fellow Christian, let me say that the number 666 appears in the NIV version of the Christian Bible exactly four times: first in 1 Kings 10:14, second in 2 Chronicles 9:13, third in Ezra 2:13, and last in Revelation 13:18. The first two verses say exactly the same thing: "The weight of the gold that Solomon received yearly was 666 talents". The third reference in Ezra appears to be an accounting of the exiles returning, and there were 666 men in the tribe of Adonikam. Finally, we see the Revelation reference saying "This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666." Nowhere does it say "Thou shalt not use this number" or anything similar ... it just says that it is the number that the Beast will bear. 666 is a real number, just like any other ... it was a year in our history, so why shouldn't it be a year in the history of a Fantasy Game setting? Click Here to find out what was going on in our world at about that time.

Now, onto the deeper issue of that specific number being used as a date in the Ravenloft setting ... is it likely that they used the year 666 in the history specifically because of the significance that number has in classic occult symbology? It's certainly possible. But, then again, Ravenloft is designed to be a setting of "Gothic Horror". It is pretty safe to assume that some fairly unpleasant stuff is going on, and there's probably a lot of evil floating around. And, I'll guarantee you (because I read the 2e setting), that a lot of it is a whole lot worse than just having to deal with the number 666 as a year. Now, that isn't to say that the setting glorifies evil, or that to play in it, you have to be evil. There are some good folks fighting "the good fight" in Ravenloft ... but they're confronted with a hard fight (think ... like the persecution of the early Christian church under the Roman Empire before the conversion under Constantine, but plus a bunch of magic, and a bunch of evil farie tales that are now real). If you're interested in this angle (and I know I am ... I really enjoy playing undead bashing clerics in any setting, and the cliched Holy Crusader type as well from time to time), then you can have a lot of fun in Ravenloft. But, remember, your character (and, by extension, you) will have to confront and deal with that evil on a personal level in order to fight it.

Finally, let me just say that I don't mean any of this to offend you or bring you down ... I'm just trying to say that using 666 as a year isn't really all that bad. If, however, it's something that you find unforgivable, that's your decision, and I respect it. That said ... if you can't forgive what may very well be a deliberate use of the number 666 in this campaign setting, you may have a hard time dealing with some potentially more offensive issues once you get involved in playing in the setting. If you'd like, feel free to PM me for further discussion on this topic.

Regards,
Justin.
#10
zombiegleemax
Oct 17, 2005 8:06:18
However, I looked through the D20 S&S Player's Guide and I saw a timeline of the demi-plane of Ravenloft there. In it there was a date for an event listed in the year 666 for when the first book of ezra was created. I was greatly disturbed by this.

Though I respect your beliefs, and wouldn't judge you because of them, sometimes you have to accept that a number is just a number.
#11
The_Jester
Oct 17, 2005 13:17:52 The current year in the Ravenloft setting is 758-759. There's not that many years to work with and a limited time in which to place events. Something had to have occured in the year 666 in the Barovian Calender just like something occured on the real Earth on that year.
Maybe the author thought it would be cute to have that be the date. Or maybe it simply worked based on the age of the religion and the characters and it didn't 'click' until later.
I've used Erza alot in my writing and campaigns and the date never really stuck out in my head.

Please don't blame White Wolf for this. They just published the book, they didn't write it. As pointed out, the reference goes back to a net-source that was adopted as canon when the Kargatane began writing the books.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Oct 16, 2005 18:31:36	Hello all. I am writing because I have an important question I'm hoping you all can answer for me. I've always had a HUGE interest to play in the Ravenloft campaign setting since it first came out during 2.0. I never got to do so though. Just earlier today I decided to look at what was out there under the D20 Sword and Sorcery license for 3.5 because I'm still interested in playing in this setting. I know the stuff for 3.5 under these labels were produced by White Wolf because Wizards of the Coast gave them the license for a bit and now Wizards of the Coast has gotten the license back in recent days, making these White Wolf products dated/discontinued. However, I looked through the D20 S&S Player's Guide and I saw a timeline of the demi-plane of Ravenloft there. In it there was a date for an event listed in the year 666 for when the first book of ezra was created. I was greatly disturbed by this. I have strong religious beliefs and this was kind of alarming to me. I am asking you all out there that are knowledgeable of Ravenloft if this timeline has ever appeared in any of the TSR Ravenloft products and if so did this particular date appear in there in the same year? Or can I chalk this up to something that White Wolf must have done? I'm sure this was on purpose because it is pretty obvious....did they do it for dark purposes since Ravenloft is supposed to be a dark gothic setting? I was struck by this date and disturbed because of my strong religious beliefs. I'm hoping this is something that White Wolf had done and that this is not the fault of White Wolf or earlier TSR products. Please help me. If this was White Wolf only I'll simply try to look through the TSR 2.0 stuff instead and anxiously await to see if Wizards of the Coast ever bring back this setting. (Note: I have posted this in the Ravenloft forum also...in case someone yells this should be there instead of here. I am simply trying to get some answers)
#2 theredrobedwizard Oct 16, 2005 19:21:26	Yes. Book of Ezra, Year 666. Which book this was originally published in, I don't remember. But I had seen it before the WW/SnS version came out. I remember a discussion with one of my players "way back when". Player: "Huh, check this out." Me: "What?" Player: "The first Book of Ezra was published in the year 666." Me: "Huh." Player: "Ooo. Lookie here, spells." -TRRW
#3 zombiegleemax Oct 16, 2005 19:26:28	No..I did not take it that in that respect but ignorance can be bliss I guess. First of all we are talking about a dark, gothic setting with vampires, etc. Second of all, we are talking about White Wolf. WW have produced other such references in the past. Seeing that date in the book seemed like much more than a coincidence to me. They could have chosen the year 667 or the year 665 but no they chose that particular number. It seems purposeful to me. Also the Book of Ezra they mention there. If I'm not mistaken Ezra...isn't that the name if a book from the Bible? I'm just a bit concerned about them using this number when they could have chosen easily any other number...doesn't it seem a bit purposeful to you? You are saying this same timeline appeared in the earlier TSR products that first introduced Ravenloft also? I'm pretty concerned about this and was hoping this was just something White Wolf did but it seems you are saying otherwise.
#4 RunningWilder Oct 16, 2005 19:32:04	No..I did not take it that in that respect but ignorance can be bliss I guess. First of all we are talking about a dark, gothic setting with vampires, etc. Second of all, we are talking about White Wolf. WW have produced other such references in the past. Seeing that date in the book seemed like much more than a coincidence to me. They could have chosen the year 667 or the year 665 but no they chose that particular number. It seems purposeful to me. Also the Book of Ezra they mention there. If I'm not mistaken Ezra...isn't that the name if a book from the Bible? I'm just a bit concerned about them using this number when they could have chosen easily any other number...doesn't it seem a bit purposeful to you? You are saying this same timeline appeared in the earlier TSR products that first introduced Ravenloft also? I'm pretty concerned about this and was hoping this was just something White Wolf did but it seems you are saying otherwise. I answered on the other board. You know, I've had my book for almost five years now, and I never noticed the connection. I guess you only find what you're looking for. Sorry if they just looked at it like a number and didn't take the time not to worry you.
#5 theredrobedwizard Oct 16, 2005 19:32:08	In regards to the above, I ninja-edited my post before Warduke was done posting his response. I was rather confrontational, so I went back and made it more public-appropriate. Sorry if I upset you, Warduke. Maybe it was a coincidence, maybe it was by choice. Whatever the true answer is, well, that's what the answer is. Ravenloft was TSR's "giving in to the stereotype" setting. Being dark and evil and evil just for the sake of it. Ezra was a book of the bible, but I believe that the name was chosen simply because it sounded cool; not to attach any real world connotations to it. Unless the Ezra in the bible was a red-headed fighter/paladin/witch-hunter woman. In that case, it was probably based on her. -TRRW
#6 zombiegleemax Oct 16, 2005 19:38:37	I appreciate you making it more friendly. I'm not here to attack anything...I'm not attacking the setting. I was interested in Ravenloft as I said earlier. I just don't want to be involved with anything that is associated with something that is using that number in a diabolical way. If it is there as a coincidence or just as a number then fine. If it was put there on purpose for shock factor or for dark purposes then that is entirely different. I just wanted help is all. I really hope it isn't in the TSR stuff. If any of you have earlier TSR Ravenloft books can you let me know if this timeline is indeed in there anywhere and if the year 666 is in there? I'm interested in knowing.
#7 zombiegleemax Oct 16, 2005 19:48:29	First and foremost as you all know Ezra is a Paladin and a diety. Here is some source websites incase you were wondering. http://www.ravenloft.me.uk/Religion_Ezra.asp 666 Yakov Dilisnya found unconscious in a stream near the family estate, rages with fever for five days. When he recovers, he claims to have received a rapturous vision from and entity he calls Ezra, Our Guardian in the Mists. Yakov pens The First Book of Ezra, and begins his largely fruitless campaign to found a new religion in her name. [BoSec: Anchors of Faith] this is located on http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/Wine_Cellar/RL_Timeline_JWM.doc Its original source is from a netbook with a non-canon source.
#8 zombiegleemax Oct 16, 2005 19:57:59	I appreciate your info guys. You have been most helpful. I am hoping this was just something that was in there without it being some kind of purposeful thing they did for the evil value of it. If so, I can deal with it. If it is something accidental of something like that then I can deal with that.
#9 androcus_divinicus_02 Oct 17, 2005 4:20:28	I am a bit perplexed as to how, exactly, the year 666 bothers you. I'm assuming that your "strong religious beliefs" are Christian. Well, as a fellow Christian, let me say that the number 666 appears in the NIV version of the Christian Bible exactly four times: first in 1 Kings 10:14, second in 2 Chronicles 9:13, third in Ezra 2:13, and last in Revelation 13:18. The first two verses say exactly the same thing: "The weight of the gold that Solomon received yearly was 666 talents". The third reference in Ezra appears to be an accounting of the exiles returning, and there were 666 men in the tribe of Adonikam. Finally, we see the Revelation reference saying "This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666." Nowhere does it say "Thou shalt not use this number" or anything similar ... it just says that it is the number that the Beast will bear. 666 is a real number, just like any other ... it was a year in our history, so why shouldn't it be a year in the history of a Fantasy Game setting? Click Here to find out what was going on in our world at about that time. Now, onto the deeper issue of that specific number being used as a date in the Ravenloft setting ... is it likely that they used the year 666 in the history specifically because of the significance that number has in classic occult symbology? It's certainly possible. But, then again, Ravenloft is designed to be a setting of "Gothic Horror". It is pretty safe to assume that some fairly unpleasant stuff is going on, and there's probably a lot of evil floating around. And, I'll guarantee you (because I read the 2e setting), that a lot of it is a whole lot worse than just having to deal with the number 666 as a year. Now, that isn't to say that the setting glorifies evil, or that to play in it, you have to be evil. There are some good folks fighting "the good fight" in Ravenloft ... but they're confronted with a hard fight (think ... like the persecution of the early Christian church under the Roman Empire before the conversion under Constantine, but plus a bunch of magic, and a bunch of evil farie tales that are now real). If you're interested in this angle (and I know I am ... I really enjoy playing undead bashing clerics in any setting, and the cliched Holy Crusader type as well from time to time), then you can have a lot of fun in Ravenloft. But, remember, your character (and, by extension, you) will have to confront and deal with that evil on a personal level in order to fight it. Finally, let me just say that I don't mean any of this to offend you or bring you down ... I'm just trying to say that using 666 as a year isn't really all that bad. If, however, it's something that you find unforgivable, that's your decision, and I respect it. That said ... if you can't forgive what may very well be a deliberate use of the number 666 in this campaign setting, you may have a hard time dealing with some potentially more offensive issues once you get involved in playing in the setting. If you'd like, feel free to PM me for further discussion on this topic. Regards, Justin.
#10 zombiegleemax Oct 17, 2005 8:06:18	However, I looked through the D20 S&S Player's Guide and I saw a timeline of the demi-plane of Ravenloft there. In it there was a date for an event listed in the year 666 for when the first book of ezra was created. I was greatly disturbed by this. Though I respect your beliefs, and wouldn't judge you because of them, sometimes you have to accept that a number is just a number.
#11 The_Jester Oct 17, 2005 13:17:52	The current year in the Ravenloft setting is 758-759. There's not that many years to work with and a limited time in which to place events. Something had to have occured in the year 666 in the Barovian Calender just like something occured on the real Earth on that year. Maybe the author thought it would be cute to have that be the date. Or maybe it simply worked based on the age of the religion and the characters and it didn't 'click' until later. I've used Erza alot in my writing and campaigns and the date never really stuck out in my head. Please don't blame White Wolf for this. They just published the book, they didn't write it. As pointed out, the reference goes back to a net-source that was adopted as canon when the Kargatane began writing the books.