Is it just that it is a metal poor world and that a majority of the rich veins if ore were mined out during the Green Age- at least on the Tablelands.
Or is it that, during the Cleansing wars, certain spells, maybe some of the epic nature, that were employed to destroy opponent’s weapons, armor, and means of creating more? I like this idea- it would have been a great tactic that I could see Borys using to try to weaken the Dwarven nations- seeing as how the dwarves were most likely the ones supplying a majority of other races with metal items to fight against Rajaat and his Champions.
If this second possibility is true- which is just hypothetical- is might be reasonable to assume that there are regions of Athas that have a high- or at least normal- quantity of metal.
On another kind of related point of interest- does anyone think that there are horses on Athas- now or in another age? I do not recall ever seeing anything that would suggest that there were.
On another kind of related point of interest- does anyone think that there are horses on Athas- now or in another age? I do not recall ever seeing anything that would suggest that there were.
I think there were, but they either all died off towards the end of the Green Age or turned into some other creature.
I have nothing to support this, but it would be very fitting for DS if this were the case IMO.
I don't believe this was the case, but thought I'd throw it out there anyway.
Just a odd theory/idea on the lack of metal on Athas. What if Rajaat (or one of his minions) was secretly (or not so secretly) gathering/hoarding mass amounts of metal for some unknown sinister purpose?
I don't believe this was the case, but thought I'd throw it out there anyway.
Interesting thought- but what would you propose this sinister purpose was? An unstoppable army of Iron Golems to help Hamanu as he Cleansed the Human race from Athas?
Interesting thought- but what would you propose this sinister purpose was? An unstoppable army of Iron Golems to help Hamanu as he Cleansed the Human race from Athas?
Perhaps as part of some component to return Athas to the Blue Age once the Cleansing Wars were over. Maybe to craft a huge gate to the Elemental Plane of Water?
Or, maybe huge quantities of metal were gathered by the SK's as part of the processes in creating the Rajaat's prison the Hollow?
Maybe they needed a lot of soap in the Cleansing Wars and used all the horses to make it...
Maybe they needed a lot of soap in the Cleansing Wars and used all the horses to make it...
Or glue ;)
I always figured that it had a lot to do with the "druid wars". It would be quite fitting if they caused weapons and armor to rust enmasse during their attacks on the SKs. I also figured that it could have in part be the Preservers fault, they could have summoned up hoards of rust monsters which quite successfully ate themselves out of business. :P
Yeah, I like that. Because, according to The Crimson Legion novel, there was a lot of metal during the Green age, and the dwarves in Kled, still had a bunch of metal armor and weapons. "For the next three centuries the blood of druids across the land stains the sands red in what would be known as the Eradication. " So to go with your theory the rust monsters and the rust causing spells may also have tainted the sands red.
Altough there are probably a few references here and there to dogs, wolves, and cats, the setting is extraordinarely empty of said references, which to me - again - is a good indicator these classic elements were intended to be absent from Athas.
This would seem to be corroborated with the usual D&D races being different on Athas.
It looks to me the only reason horses are not found is that the designers did not include them - or gods, plus a couple of other typical game elements - to ensure that Athas would feel unique.
Altough there are probably a few references here and there to dogs, wolves, and cats, the setting is extraordinarely empty of said references, which to me - again - is a good indicator these classic elements were intended to be absent from Athas.
This would seem to be corroborated with the usual D&D races being different on Athas.
Due to the drastic changes to Athas casued by the Cleansing Wars dwarves lost their beards and stopped living underground.
I agree that the standard elements of most game worlds are not found in present day Athas but could have very well existed during the Green Age as proven by the dwarven example.
Due to the drastic changes casued by the Cleansing Wars dwarves had beards and lived underground during the Green Age.
I agree that the standard elements of most game worlds are not found in present day Athas but could have very well existed during the Green Age as proven by the dwarven example.
Yeah, I agree.
Due to the drastic changes casued by the Cleansing Wars dwarves had beards and lived underground during the Green Age.
I agree that the standard elements of most game worlds are not found in present day Athas but could have very well existed during the Green Age as proven by the dwarven example.
Agreed.
In fact, I think there still are dogs, cats, wolves, and bears on Athas, they are just different and have evolved through the ages.
Horses were probably around during the Green Age but are now extinct since I can't see them evolving into any of the lu birds or kanks since they are on very opposite sides of the species tree.
I was just wondering what everyone else thought of the horse thing because with all of the new maps that Brian has been making it opens up the possibility for them to exist- but not in my game. There were horses on Athas, but they all died out when the climate changed- they just did not adapt as well.
As for metal- I really like the idea that metal was more common in past ages and that it was with the use of magic that stores of the weapons and armor and the unworked ore was destroyed. IMC the only metal items that exist from the Green Age are those items that are magical/psionic in nature or in some kind of magically protected place.
Agreed.
In fact, I think there still are dogs, cats, wolves, and bears on Athas, they are just different and have evolved through the ages.
Horses were probably around during the Green Age but are now extinct since I can't see them evolving into any of the lu birds or kanks since they are on very opposite sides of the species tree.
Dogs: Jakar
Cats: Tagster, Tigone, Kirre, Kivit
Wolves: ?
Bears: Takis, Klar
Wolves: ?
Rasclin, zackel, tembo
I do agree that there is a good reason not to include some of the common elements from most other settings- DS is a rather unique place and I would personally feel robbed if someone wanted to start intoducing, well.. things that are not DS<- I cannot really put it into words.
Dogs: Jakar
Cats: Tagster, Tigone, Kirre, Kivit
Wolves: ?
Bears: Takis, Klar
Thought I saw wolves somewhere in one of the accessories/modules. Maybe the crack coffee is still affecting me this morning, heh.
Sysane came up with a good substitution list though for wolves.
Ahh yes, the zackal is a deadringer for the coyote; a member of the wolf family and I thought rasclin was more of a racoon adaptation, but I'm not sure how you can construe the tembo as wolf related.
There's also the Ruve.
Rasclin is more along the lines of a jackal IMO.
Tembo is to wolf what Klar is to bear.
Ahh yes, the zackal is a deadringer for the coyote; a member of the wolf family and I thought rasclin was more of a racoon adaptation, but I'm not sure how you can construe the tembo as wolf related.
There was another dog critter in ToA that would fit the wolf family as well. Can't remember the name right now and can't download anything from athas.org since the firewall doesn't like it and considers it a "game".
I just remember converting the thing and it being pretty damn quick, and it came from another world's MC, like Spelljammer or something.
Kam, help me out. :P
There's also the Ruve.
Ah yes, the Ruve. How could I forget that name.
Thanks Sysane!
:D
Even elephants are replaced by mekillots as the ultimate beast of burden.
Agreed.
In fact, I think there still are dogs, cats, wolves, and bears on Athas, they are just different and have evolved through the ages.
Horses were probably around during the Green Age but are now extinct since I can't see them evolving into any of the lu birds or kanks since they are on very opposite sides of the species tree.
I figure that the fallout from the Cleansing Wars, the Dragon's rampage, and just the hostile environment the world has become, has forced creatures to either adapt and survive, or to become more or less extinct, while other creatures which are already more acclimated to this environment gained in numbers, strength, and power. The massive climactic changes from the Blue -> Green, and Green -> SK ages had to have wrecked some incredible shifts in the ecosystems of Athas. Entire food chains thrown on their ears, mass extinctions, and significant adaptations. That's one of the reasons I tend to, as a rule of thumb, when introducing an animal that may be "recognizeable" as a "real world" animal, I make a Dire, and probably Phrenic version of the animal to be found. I figure the Phrenic aspect is due to the proliferation of psionics in the world, and the harsh environment would tend to make psionic creatures survive better than non-psionic creatures. The Dire element, because this harsh world would tend to weed out all but the strongest of a species, and the species would tend to adapt to survive better physically.
The destruction of a lot of metal would result in a loss of power for the Earth Elementals, one would have thought.
I find myself wondering if there was an event, even a deliberate act. Or perhaps a result of the destruction of the power of other elements - the fourfold balance began to topple.
Dragging ourselves back to the original topic :D
The destruction of a lot of metal would result in a loss of power for the Earth Elementals, one would have thought.
I find myself wondering if there was an event, even a deliberate act. Or perhaps a result of the destruction of the power of other elements - the fourfold balance began to topple.
Hmmmm...perhaps as part of a bargain that Rajaat struck with the Elemental Lords of Water? It would offer an explanation how he was able to conjure the massive amounts of water at the end of the PP.
That's one of the reasons I tend to, as a rule of thumb, when introducing an animal that may be "recognizeable" as a "real world" animal, I make a Dire, and probably Phrenic version of the animal to be found. I figure the Phrenic aspect is due to the proliferation of psionics in the world, and the harsh environment would tend to make psionic creatures survive better than non-psionic creatures. The Dire element, because this harsh world would tend to weed out all but the strongest of a species, and the species would tend to adapt to survive better physically.
I just can't seem to understand why you equate survivability with Dire. Do you realize that the whole dire animal thing was based on sabertooth tigers and wooly mammoths and such; creatures from the post dinosaur area ice ages. In fact their were huge versions of all sorts of animals that just don't exsist anymore today. The reason, large and strong does not equal survival. If it did the dinosaurs would have been the ones to survive the meteor impact and not the tiny mammals of the time. In fact its really just the opposite when your talking about a scarcity of reasources, small adaptable species are those that survive most often. While large creatures that require more food and water, long gestation periods, and slower reproductive cycles tend to die off.
In an ice age there is a significant advantage to being large, and thats warmth and fat stores. In the desert however being large just makes it harder to find enough food and water, and harder to keep cool.
As for a pact with Water... couldn't Rajaat merely have cast a huge epic spell to create the Tyr Storm??? and since he is so uber level... he could have made one heck of a DC check...
I just can't seem to understand why you equate survivability with Dire. Do you realize that the whole dire animal thing was based on sabertooth tigers and wooly mammoths and such; creatures from the post dinosaur area ice ages. In fact their were huge versions of all sorts of animals that just don't exsist anymore today. The reason, large and strong does not equal survival. If it did the dinosaurs would have been the ones to survive the meteor impact and not the tiny mammals of the time. In fact its really just the opposite when your talking about a scarcity of reasources, small adaptable species are those that survive most often. While large creatures that require more food and water, long gestation periods, and slower reproductive cycles tend to die off.
Dire is biger, tougher, has bony plates that help it defend itself from other predators. Your assumption is to compare it to the Ice Age, I see it as them being the physical superiors of the "standard" animals. The Klar (I think it's the Klar -- the one that's modeled off of the bear described in the Prism Pentad books) started out basically as a Dire Bear with psionic abilities. The Prism Pentad sort of glazes over the idea that the animals are bigger, tougher, and meaner than what we'd normally expect. For me, when I read the statistics and information on Dire animals, I see "bigger, tougher, meaner" as being the attributes at the forefront. So therefore, I equate Dark Sun animals with Dire versions. It's not my original idea, it's one that Troy Denning seemed to be pushing for.
Dire animals, to me, make the world that much rougher and tougher. Going from a "survival of the fittest" standpoint -- where the weak get killed off rather quickly in Dark Sun, you'd still end up with the bigger, tougher, and more capable beasts being what survived. Everything else either was eaten, or died from the exposure.
Now, I'm not saying these things are in vast numbers -- that would be silly. However, when I do present a "real world" animal, I present it in the same light that Troy Denning did -- big, mean, psionic, and bloodthirsty. Something that strikes fear in a character's heart.
I just can't seem to understand why you equate survivability with Dire. Do you realize that the whole dire animal thing was based on sabertooth tigers and wooly mammoths and such; creatures from the post dinosaur area ice ages. In fact their were huge versions of all sorts of animals that just don't exsist anymore today. The reason, large and strong does not equal survival. If it did the dinosaurs would have been the ones to survive the meteor impact and not the tiny mammals of the time. In fact its really just the opposite when your talking about a scarcity of reasources, small adaptable species are those that survive most often. While large creatures that require more food and water, long gestation periods, and slower reproductive cycles tend to die off.
In an ice age there is a significant advantage to being large, and thats warmth and fat stores. In the desert however being large just makes it harder to find enough food and water, and harder to keep cool.
I totally agree with Sage- which was one of the reasons for the template- bumping the 'normal' animal up just enough to make it a bit tougher, but not the type of monsters that Dire and Phrenic creatures become- expecially the latter which has alot of psionic powers BTW- too many in my mind to feel comfortable giving them to animals.
Plant--->Herbavore--->Omnivore--->Carnivore
Question: Ok, so what happens when the bottom of the food chain is severely depleted, as is the case on Athas?
Answer: The destruction of the foundation of the food chain undermines the rest of the food chain striking hardest at those at the top of the food chain as they are the most vunerable relying on every level of the chain to survive.
Question: Which predators are most likely to survive?
Answer: Those that are able as a species to aquire enough food to survive and reproduce in great enough numbers to maintain a viable population. Those predators that require fewer nutrients and water and require them less often will be the most likely to survive, the same goes for the herbavores.
But, you say successful aquisition of food and water is also an improtant issue. And that being big and tough helps animals to outcompete eachother for food resources by scaring off and killing competition. Yes, this is true. But, since the larger herbavores are having a hard time aquiring enough food due to a simple lack of available plants. The larger predators lose most of their advantage (the ability to take down larger more dangerous prey). Meanwhile, the smaller predators are doing much better as they are able to survive off of the smaller herbavores which they are already better adapted to hunt than the large predators are.
Now, you might be saying, "wait a minute! What's this viable population nonsense?".
Well, I'll tell you: A species requires a minium population level in order to remain viable. This level varies with the species on question, but tends to be much higher in larger animals especially those that reproduce slowly and have small litters (3-4 or less counts as a small litter for this purpose). The reason these minimum levels are necessary is two-fold.
1. With too few members of a species surviving there is not enough genetic variance to maintain the health of a species over the longer term. Each successive generation will have more genetic disorders until the species becomes unable to survive or reproduce successfully.
2. Without a great enough population density (strongly tied to total numbers), the members species will have trouble finding suitable mates, and the death of a few individuals in an area could effect a much larger region by preventing the mating, thus reproduction of other nearby member of the species.
Look, I don't have any problem with athas having large dangerous predators and monsters. It makes a roleplaying game much more fun to have these sorts of creatures, all I'm saying is that the destruction of the worlds ecosystem is not an explanation for having larger animals running around all over the place and their are plently of large dangerous creature and monsters already in the game. If your going to be adding more animals to the world, it needs small animals, wiley well adapted animals, poisonous and psionic animals, but not dire animals. All those "dire animals" have to eat something afterall and there are already plently of creatures filling the position of big bad predator. How about somemore small wiley predators and some figgin' animals for them to eat!
The problem with the layout of the ecosystem as you had expertly (or well, more expertly than me) done is that it's great for Earth. But we're not talking about Earth. We are more or less talking about an alien ecology, affected by forces that we don't have in real life. What these forces have done to the ecology we can't explain through natural scientific means (hence the term "supernatural"). How can you look at environments on Earth, and say "Of course, because Earth's ecosystem is structured this way, therefore a world that's been desicrated by magic for thousands of years and permiated with psionics for longer would be the same way". There could be some similarities, sure -- but Dark Sun is a different environment all together.
I see plants and animals on the world as equally being in a more horizontal-line structure of the ecosystem, rather than a pyramid-like or web-like scheme as you find on Earth. Things had to change to survive, to adapt or perish. They have. Many had to become much tougher than they once were, others had some added benefits like psionics thrown in the mix.
And, as I said before, Troy Denning had already laid the footwork for using Dire-like (he wanted Larger to work) creatures in Athas, with the whole scene dealing with the Bear (which I believe the Klar is based off of). I'm just building from that idea, and extending it to other things. I get the impression you think that I'd have these Dire creatures be in vast numbers. They aren't. I generally use Dark Sun creatures, but when I want to have fun, I take a real-world animal, and make it Dire-like. I use the Phrenic template as well sometimes (or rather a stripped down version of it, or I just make the creature psionic, but I'm more or less relegated to using Phrenic template, because WotC removed the Psionic template when they releaed the XPH). It adds a bit of spice, surprises the hell out of my group, and is fun to mix into the campaign. That doesn't mean I have herds of dire phrenic deer flirting across the wastes. That doesn't mean that everyone has dire and phrenic kitty cats as pets. It just means when I bring an animal not normally found on Athas, I buff it up a bit.
Thus, in the larger scheme of things, Athas could have been a planet that cooled slowly and thus simply has a lower natural occurance of metal.
However, I kinda like the idea of a vast army of Iron Golems waiting to destroy the last of the races on Athas. I am imagining something like Xian's terracota army.
itf
I love it when you get all technical and scientific on us- next time use BIG words too :D...Now, I am going to slightly rework some of the aspects of the template due to the fact that Kam told me that others in Athas.org didnot think it was DS enough- but we will see because I do not want to change it too much...
As I recall, it was more that it echoed the dire and phrenic templates too closely. Cool idea, though, but I'd definitely like to see it take a step away from those in similarity. As I suggested elsewhere, some typical Athasian features to add might include spiky bits, spine missiles, poison, hexapedal limb structure/attacks and the ability to shoot laser beams out of its eyes :D.
...when introducing an animal that may be "recognizeable" as a "real world" animal, I make a Dire, and probably Phrenic version of the animal to be found...
Me too - those two templates capture a lot of the feel of the effects of Athasian evolution for the reasons that you've noted above.
The Klar (I think it's the Klar -- the one that's modeled off of the bear described in the Prism Pentad books) started out basically as a Dire Bear with psionic abilities.
We weren't entirely sure about the relationship between the 2e klar and the Prism Pentad bear (the latter is much larger, for a start) so we also statted out an athasian bear for ToA. From that perspective, bears and cats have all done pretty well for themselves (klar, takis and athasian bear for the former and tagster, tigone and kirre for the latter - oh, and the kivit too, I guess...) The same could be said for the dog/wolf breeds, as you have rasclinn, ruves and zhackals all running about the place.
Actually, on the original topic of the thread, I wonder if the rasclinn can be blamed in any way for the depletion of metal on Athas. The species eats metal - although the rasclinn population probably couldn't devour all of the metal on Athas, I wouldn't be surprised if they played a small part in its diminished presence.
That aside, I have always been taken by the idea that Athas' metal resources were mined into non-existence by a thoroughly irresponsible Green Age society and a warmongering collection of armies during the Cleansing Wars. It echoes the original ecological undertones of the setting and places the blame at the feet of regular Athasian folks instead of concocting an extended magical explanation for its absence.
As I recall, it was more that it echoed the dire and phrenic templates too closely. Cool idea, though, but I'd definitely like to see it take a step away from those in similarity. As I suggested elsewhere, some typical Athasian features to add might include spiky bits, spine missiles, poison, hexapedal limb structure/attacks and the ability to shoot laser beams out of its eyes :D.
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I will be adding something along the lines of spikey growths and plating/scales- such factors will be dependant upon the creatures total natural armor (base critter + increase for template). Also, I have been playing around with some ideas of subtile mutations that will not make them superfreaks- an additional chart tthat will allow for extra limbs and lazer beams ;). I have several other projects- like finishing the time travel spells, but the modification of the template is on the list of to do items.
Maybe it is time to resurrect that thread and get some more feedback.