I am about to lift one of my campaigns up into the endless voids, have read through the SJ box and the majority of modules (still have to work through the war captains companion...) but several questions are still unanswered. I hope to get those answers here.
1) Maps of the Spheres?
I googeled around for hours and finally found that all available maps are already gathered at spelljammer.org…
a) Paul Westermeyer's Map of the Flow: http://spelljammer.org/worlds/flowmaps/Flow.gif
totally different from the other maps, as it´s more of a ring and less of a "network of spheres". I slightly prefer the network version, as the spheres are easier to reach that way, but that´s just me.
contra: lots of isolated spheres. how does one reach for example Redeye?
...or does missing flow-rivers only mean that these flows are not common knowledge? In that case: how can one find unknown rivers?
some questions (of general concern, but especially important for the ring-shaped map) to Paul Westermeyer´s Phlogiston Navigation (http://spelljammer.org/worlds/flowmaps/flow.html):
a1)
What happens with a ship´s speed when I travel a Flow-River, arrive at a shpere and don´t want to enter it?
Example: I start in Realmspace and want to go to Grommspace. That means I have to go Bralspace first. When I reach Bralspace (aka Spiralspace), does my ship slow to tactical speed like when I want to enter that Sphere? In that case, I´d have to either travel around the sphere (which would tace very long at tactical speed!) or enter the shpere, traverse it and leave it on the other side, find the river to bralspace and continue my voyage (which would be slower but still take quite some time).
one alternative I could imagine is that a sphere is "visible" long before the ship slows to tactical speed (because spheres are really big), so the helmsman can steer the ship around AND stay in the flow-river at high speed.
a2)
Can one travel directly through the phlogiston to a shpere without a river? I think yes, but it would be a lot slower. …just how slow do you think, compared with “river-running”?
b) the flow maps from http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/2891/maps.html by Patrick Stutzman:
http://www.geocities.com/starspeed_a/Graphics/spheremap.jpg
that´s what I like most, and will most likely adapt for my campaign.
Questions:
b1) shouldn´t spiralspace be a bit more central? Afaik, it was said to be quite prominent sphere due to it´s strategical position at several major trade routes. I am tempted to swap it with Hyrkulspace; are there any logical problems with that (conflicts with canon or fanbased reverences)?
b2) does the flow between cluster and hyrkul touch krynnspace or is it supposed to lie “behind” krynn? The same with herospace – realmspace – winterspace and herospace – darkspace – icespace.
c) Tilaurin's Map of the Flow: http://lost.spelljammer.org/Enildarion/images/enersph.jpg
It even states distances between the spheres (I don´t really like the official "totally variable - traveltime"-system!), but it diverges in some ways from canon (greyspace missing, no "radiant triangle" with direkt flow-rivers between the three spheres,...). As the traveltime depends on the speed of the respective flow-river, would you see any problems with transfering these traveltimes to map b) (from Paul Stutzman)?
d) http://www.nightwasp.com/daggerdale/spelljammer/smallphlo.jpg
the alignment of the spheres seems to be closer to canon, but I don´t have enough knowledge to verify it. perhaps someone could check it...
- pro: The flow-rivers have directions. I´ve read somewhere that the Krynnspace-Realmspace- flow is oneway to RS, which is portrayed here.
- contra: too many empty spheres - I´d love to fill these spheres with worlds (NPC´s should know at least basic informations about these spheres, and my players will ask them, I´m sure…), but I don´t have the time for that. Of course I can always ignore these empty spheres and redraw the map. If I do, I´ll post the results here.
e) Noah Bonebrake's Prime Junction : http://spelljammer.org/worlds/flowmaps/Junction.gif
…too small: too many shperes missing to be of use for me. The look, however, is a jammers dream!
2) …A totally different question, concerning spelljamming ships and Halruaa´s flying ships (from the Forgotten Realms):
Halruaan skyships are one of the wonders of Faerun, they are what Elminster is to Shadowdale: iconic.
Compared with Spelljammers, however, they pale. Not only are ´jammers faster but also far more easy to “acquire”: There are (relatively spoken) lot´s of spelljamming ships in the realms: some of cormyr´s noble houses own small fleets, a few sembian merchants use them, there is regular trade with ´jammers in Calimport and recently (after the calishite slander against waterdeep was discovered and countered) traffic with the city of splendors picked up again. Then we have The Dock in the far east and Kara Tur´s fleet, etc… However, I have almost never heard of a Halruaan Skyship that is owned by a non-native of that land.
My problem with that: If spelljamming ships (or helms) are relatively(!) easy to obtain, and spelljamming awareness in the realms is really at the level it is portrayed (i.e. at least well educated folks (read: wizards!) are aware of their nature), shouldn´t Halruaan Mages try everything to get these superior ships? I mean, why should they use their “lame” Skyships (no offense meant!) when they could have a Spelljammer?
Besides, (iirc) Skyships are reserved to Elders (= members of Halruaa´s Government), and there are “only” 300 of them. Every lowlevel mage with enough money could “buy” a helm, without having to wait to become an archmage (of at least 16th level or so, iirc).
It´s even possible that a regular (i.e. non-wizard) citizen (a well-to-do merchant for example) gets his hands on a spelljamming ship and hires a spellcaster to man the helm. …Imagine the scandal when a merchant´s spelljammer outruns an elder´s skyship!
1a) You can "skip" a sphere, if necessary, although this can be dangerous if your supplies are low or you don't know how far away the next sphere is. I really don't see the river running right up to the sphere, but instead skirts around the edges, just like how ocean currents run around continents instead of stopping dead at the beach.
1b) Sure, when travelling off a river, the next sphere is 10d10 days travel away.
As far as picking a map, whichever map you want, or just make one up. There really isn't an "official" way of placing spheres. There are three semi-official maps that I know of: the map of the Vodoni Empire from Under the Dark Fist, which labels the spheres of the Empire but not the Radiant Triangle; the "NW" section of the "Arcane Inner Flow" from Dungeon, which shows Realmspace as close to the Flow, and the spheres Refuge, Pirtel, & Darannon on the Flow (this was the basis of Paul's map); and the map from Astronumdi Cluster, which shows the Radiant Triangle & Clusterspace in a "diamond" formation + the Crystal Spheres "spheres" (Dark, Hero, Faerie, & Great) clustered around Greyspace, with Greatspace off of Realspace. The location of the rest of the spheres are speculative. We can guess the order of some rivers, but not the direction. A lot of spheres aren't located at all, other than in the most vague fashion.
Information on the flow is sketchy, meaning both that it is inadequate for more than the most superficial use and that it is spread thinly throughout the Lorebook and Concordance from the original set in just a VERY few key sentences. The whole of this information is recounted below in italics. Some of it has been paraphrased for increased clarity, but this is in fact all the official information there is to go on.
The phlogiston has varying thickness' or densities in space and forms rivers between the spheres. When the spheres drift too close the phlogiston between them thickens, becomes more dense, and they move apart. Along these rivers the greater the density of the flow the faster a ship can move. A ship can adjust its speed by adjusting its "depth" in the river. A ships speed is at least partially dependant on the surface area it presents to the flow so many ships carry sails for the purpose.
The flow allows spelljamming ships to attain even greater velocities than the "full spelljamming speed" of 1,000,000 miles per day achieved in wildspace. These speeds have defied measurement since the flow is without permanent landmarks.
From these statements it may be inferred that this is the basis of reasoning for giving travel between spheres as a wildly variable 10-100 days though this is not specifically stated. It can also be inferred that the helmsman is still necessary in the flow whether travelling at maximum possible speeds or at tactical speed, though again this is not specifically stated. Tactical speed in the flow could be assumed to be identical to tactical speed in wildspace. This is also not specifically stated but it’s a safe assumption since we have not been provided with the alternate rules. How it can be determined that phlogiston speeds exceed "full spelljamming speed" when in almost the same breath it is stated that speeds cannot be determined is a mystery. Actually, with a bit of clever thinking or a specifically researched spell or magic item it could be easily determined - and indeed, should, and would have been determined long ago because this is a rather important and useful bit of information to have.
The hint about surface area being a factor in speed is interesting despite the lack of any further rules to define the effects. It also directly contradicts the idea that a helm provides only the speed and sails are used only for maneuvering, and this is why there is some question as to whether a helmsman is needed in the flow.
Entering the phlogiston river you can follow a planned course, or if you have none then the sphere reached will be random unless a spell or an Arcane locator device is used.
There is no mention in any Spelljammer materials of an Arcane locator for spheres - portals, yes, but not spheres. Oh, and just how do you set a course through a medium that has no landmarks to navigate by? It seems obvious that simply wanting to go to a certain sphere will not suffice for navigation.
In general, it takes 10-100 days for intersphere travel. Over time the spheres do shift positions relative to each other (thus the random time for moving between spheres) but the courses of the rivers almost never change. Some spheres drift into and out of proximity to each other so a particular sphere may not be accessible every time. A sphere with a variable chance of accessibility, if it is out of position, can still be reached on a direct route - that is by not following the rivers. To travel this way is very slow - to such a degree that it is faster to take an alternative route along the river past one or more different spheres and thus arrive in a roundabout way.
Once more we have a contradiction. While it is understandable that a direct route is slow it is also an impossibility given that it cannot be determined which direction to travel in. In point of fact, if any ship ever finds itself out of sight of a river it is forever lost until it can find one again.
The flow prevents decay of bodies and prevents departure of the soul upon death (most likely due to lack of contact with any Powers in the flow).
Not much to comment on here except that if I were appointed Benevolent Dictator over the Spelljammer setting I’d make some changes in this setup of clerical interference to make Spelljammer clerics a more unique class.
The preceding is ALL the information there was about the phlogiston. If you want ANYTHING more than that you have to make it up yourself.
My problem with that: If spelljamming ships (or helms) are relatively(!) easy to obtain, and spelljamming awareness in the realms is really at the level it is portrayed (i.e. at least well educated folks (read: wizards!) are aware of their nature), shouldn´t Halruaan Mages try everything to get these superior ships? I mean, why should they use their “lame” Skyships (no offense meant!) when they could have a Spelljammer?
I believe you'll find (though I could be wrong here) that Halruaan flying ships were introduced as part of the Forgotten Realms long before Spelljammer was introduced as an add-on set of rules for 2E. It means it's up to you to decide whether Halruaa continues to even bother producing its much different kind of ships or how they deal with things otherwise because Spelljammer never had a means of ACTUALLY integrating with existing game settings. Oh, it was supposed to enable travel between them, but it never dealt with how existing settings could or even if they would/should change if Spelljamming is added into the mix.
My own take on it would be that because it's a given that they cannot hope to control Spelljamming anywhere outside their borders they pretty much can't control it at ALL. Things will have to change because their "skyships" won't impress anyone anymore except perhaps as a quaint, old curiosity - like a Model T sitting next to a Ferrari or an 18-wheel Kenworth tractor-trailer with an 80,000# gross vehicle weight capacity. They'd completely abandon their old vessels (or better yet convert them to Spelljammers) and then try to turn the country into THE destination for Spelljammers on Toril.
"See, we knew all about flying ships and such even before Spelljamming was invented. OUR Spelljamming ships are naturally better than anyone elses as a result. We may as well have invented Spelljamming. In fact, we pretty much did. So since we are the ACTUAL INVENTORS of Spelljamming, Halruaa's the place to be. This is where you'll find the best cargos, get the finest hulls, hire the most reliable crews, yadda, yadda, yadda."
Good grief, could have broken this up into a few posts!
sorry for crowding one posting that much. It´s a bad habit of mine...
I´ll start a new thread for the Halruaan Skyships, to make the whole discussion a tad bit better structured.Ok, let me answer as many as I can:
1a) You can "skip" a sphere, if necessary, although this can be dangerous if your supplies are low or you don't know how far away the next sphere is. I really don't see the river running right up to the sphere, but instead skirts around the edges, just like how ocean currents run around continents instead of stopping dead at the beach.
"skipping a sphere" and "sphere-skirting rivers" is what I like best, and what seems to make sense more than the other possibilities. I´ll stick with this alternative. Now it becomes important just how much slower travelling off the rivers is. Since we don´t have any canon information about it: what have you (...and all readers who have more dm´ing- and playing- experience with the setting than I!) used in play?
1b) Sure, when travelling off a river, the next sphere is 10d10 days travel away.
I ´d interprete this statement not as:
"when travelling off-river, traveltime between two specific spheres can take 10d10 days[/i]" but as "[i]all (or better: most) spheres can be anywhere between 10 and100 days"
but more like:
"as a general rule, when travelling off-river, most journeys take 10-100 days, depending on the two spheres in question. Example: from sphere A to sphere B it´s ca. 20 days, while B to C you´ll need about 80 days."
that way, the rule is more a general statement of the average distance between spheres...
distances between the individual spheres should be more tangible and precise (see example above). ok, spheres "bob" in the flow, thereby changing their relative distances somewhat, but that is to a degree countered by the changing "thickness" (and thus, speed) of the river between them...
btw, there is a pretty "low-tech"- method of determining the different sailing speeds of using the rivers and travelling off the rivers: two identical (=equally fast) ships start at the same time in realmspace and head to, say, greyspace. one uses the river, the other takes the "direct route" off-river (=> more food&water on board!). that way it is possible to say "travelling in the flow is x times faster than off the river", though still there´s no precise speed.
...but at least a factor could be found - and should long ago be found, indeed! I imagine larger organizations like the IEN should have done that long ago. such an endeavor would also make a great adventure-hook!
As far as picking a map, whichever map you want, or just make one up. There really isn't an "official" way of placing spheres. There are three semi-official maps that I know of: the map of the Vodoni Empire from Under the Dark Fist, which labels the spheres of the Empire but not the Radiant Triangle; the "NW" section of the "Arcane Inner Flow" from Dungeon, which shows Realmspace as close to the Flow, and the spheres Refuge, Pirtel, & Darannon on the Flow (this was the basis of Paul's map); and the map from Astronumdi Cluster, which shows the Radiant Triangle & Clusterspace in a "diamond" formation + the Crystal Spheres "spheres" (Dark, Hero, Faerie, & Great) clustered around Greyspace, with Greatspace off of Realspace. The location of the rest of the spheres are speculative. We can guess the order of some rivers, but not the direction. A lot of spheres aren't located at all, other than in the most vague fashion.
thx for listing the official maps! I have all of them, so now I can be sure I haven´t overlooked any others. I think the best strategy is to give players a map with a small number of the better-known spheres centered around their homesphere (realmspace) and let them discover other spheres during play.
[...snip...]
The phlogiston has varying thickness' or densities in space and forms rivers between the spheres. When the spheres drift too close the phlogiston between them thickens, becomes more dense, and they move apart. Along these rivers the greater the density of the flow the faster a ship can move. A ship can adjust its speed by adjusting its "depth" in the river. A ships speed is at least partially dependant on the surface area it presents to the flow so many ships carry sails for the purpose.
The flow allows spelljamming ships to attain even greater velocities than the "full spelljamming speed" of 1,000,000 miles per day achieved in wildspace. These speeds have defied measurement since the flow is without permanent landmarks.
From these statements it may be inferred that this is the basis of reasoning for giving travel between spheres as a wildly variable 10-100 days though this is not specifically stated.
…as said in my answer to nightdruid, I prefer to interprete this as a “general statement about intersphere-traveltimes, a “bandwidth” if you will. I think it is more logical that all travel between 2 specific spheres is more or less the same, varying only slightly because of the bobbing of the spheres and small changes in the density (and thus, speed) of the particular river.
I don´t say this is the only correct interpretion of the abovementioned rule – please point out any logical flaws, inconsistencies, concflicts or problems!
It can also be inferred that the helmsman is still necessary in the flow whether travelling at maximum possible speeds or at tactical speed, though again this is not specifically stated.
let´s say the ships bearing or course must be continually “adjusted” to the flow, like a paddle-steamer must be on the mississippi.
But for the sake of the discussion: would there be any problems or conflicting logic if no helmsmen is needed during the ship being in the flow? Of course a ship in the flow without a helmsman could not change it´s course, but other than that, what might prevent “unmanned flow-travel”?
[...snip...]
Actually, with a bit of clever thinking or a specifically researched spell or magic item it could be easily determined - and indeed, should, and would have been determined long ago because this is a rather important and useful bit of information to have.
D´accord. See my idea of the sphere-to-sphere- race...
The hint about surface area being a factor in speed is interesting despite the lack of any further rules to define the effects. It also directly contradicts the idea that a helm provides only the speed and sails are used only for maneuvering, and this is why there is some question as to whether a helmsman is needed in the flow.
perhaps we should come up with a rule of thumb for travelspeed without a helm, i.e. only by using the sails in the flow. Any idea?
Entering the phlogiston river you can follow a planned course, or if you have none then the sphere reached will be random unless a spell or an Arcane locator device is used.
There is no mention in any Spelljammer materials of an Arcane locator for spheres - portals, yes, but not spheres. Oh, and just how do you set a course through a medium that has no landmarks to navigate by? It seems obvious that simply wanting to go to a certain sphere will not suffice for navigation.
I guess the planetary locator functiones as a sphere-locator when in phlogiston. Just how that works stays one of the secrets of the arcane. Perhaps the flow-beacons are part of that mystery? ...lots of mysteries – perfect for adventure hooks, or as research-projects for NPC´s (like the seekers)!
In general, it takes 10-100 days for intersphere travel. Over time the spheres do shift positions relative to each other (thus the random time for moving between spheres) but the courses of the rivers almost never change. Some spheres drift into and out of proximity to each other so a particular sphere may not be accessible every time. A sphere with a variable chance of accessibility, if it is out of position, can still be reached on a direct route - that is by not following the rivers. To travel this way is very slow - to such a degree that it is faster to take an alternative route along the river past one or more different spheres and thus arrive in a roundabout way.
Once more we have a contradiction. While it is understandable that a direct route is slow it is also an impossibility given that it cannot be determined which direction to travel in. In point of fact, if any ship ever finds itself out of sight of a river it is forever lost until it can find one again.
A serious problem. My only guess is that the helmsman always “feels” a river, perhaps like an emanation, like a light “breeze” or by means of a variation in the density of the surrounding phlogiston... Crystal Spheres could send ripples caused by their bobbing through the phlogiston, like a buoy on the water.
The preceding is ALL the information there was about the phlogiston. If you want ANYTHING more than that you have to make it up yourself.
This discussion already helps me with a lot of potential problems! I don´t know whether I will be able to post much during the this and next week (why must there be such a thing as real life?¿?) but I am definitely interested in this sort of brainstorming!