Human Church Traditions
Antalian Faith (Aasatru)
Pantheon: Antalian Pantheon
Church: Antalian Church (Clan based)
Roots: Unknown. Possibly Blackmoor Era Skandaharian Faith.
Countries: Ostland, Vestland, Soderfjord, Heldann, Norwold, Wendar, Isle of Dawn
Eternal Truth
Pantheon: None (al-Kalim)
Churches: Church if the Eternal Truth
Roots: Thyatian Faith, Ylarii Tradition, Nithian Faith
Known World Countries: Ylaruam, Darokin (Selenica), Ierendi, Thyatis (Biazzan)
Thyatian Faith
Pantheon: Thyatian Pantheon
Churches: Church of Thyatis, Church of Karameikos, Church of Darokin
Roots: Nithian and Old Traladaran Faiths
Known World Countries: Thyatis, Karameikos, Darokin, Minrothad, Ierendi
Traladaran Faith
Pantheon: The Traladaran Three, Hero Spirits
Churches: Church of Traladara
Roots: Old Traldar Faith and Tradition, Nithian Faith
Known World Countries: Karameikos, Darokin, Thyatis, Glantri (Boldavia).
Demihuman Church Traditions
Dwarven Faith
Pantheon: Dwarven Pantheon
Churches: Dwarven Church (Clan Based)
Roots: Dwarven Tradition
Countries: Rockhome, Karameikos, Thyatis, Darokin, Soderfjord, Vestland, Ostland, Norwold, Ierendi, Minrothad, Isle of Dawn, Alphatia (Denwarf-Hurgon), Gwaithallen (Moulder Dwarves).
Elven Faith
Pantheon: Elven Pantheon
Churches: Elven Church (Clan based)
Roots: Elven Tradition
Countries: Alfheim, Wendar, Karameikos, Minrothad, Darokin, Thyatis, Minrothad, Undersea, Glantri (Erewan, Belcadiz), Alphatia (Shyie Lawr), Norwold (Shyie Clans)
Hin Faith
Pantheon: High Heroes
Churches: Hin Church
Roots: Hin Tradition
Countries: Five Shires, Karameikos, Darokin, Thyatis, Norwold (Leehashire)
Human Mystical Traditions
Athruagin Mysticism
Pantheon: Athruagin Pantheon, Spirits
Churches: None (Athruagin Shamanic Tradition)
Roots: Oltec Tradition
Countries: Athruagin lands, Darokin
Ethengar Mysticism
Pantheon: Ethengar Pantheon, Spirits
Churches: None (Ethengar Shamanic Tradition)
Roots: Blackmoor Era Peshwa Tradition and Beliefs
Country: Ethengar
Glantrian Mysticism
Pantheon: Rad
Church: Shepherds of Rad
Roots: Ethengar Mysticism, Arcane Philosophy
Country: Glantri
Do you count the Heldannic Knights as belonging to the Church of Thyatis?
:-) Jesper
Interesting. A very good overview for introducing players to various faiths. However, it seems to be missing Thothian mysticism? (Isle of Dawn decendants of the Nithian empire).
Do you count the Heldannic Knights as belonging to the Church of Thyatis?
Thanks!
As you note, not everything is included here, I am concentrating on the heartlands of the Known World, but since you ask, I would suggest:
Thothian Mysticism
Pantheon: ?
Church: Temples of Thothia
Roots: Nithian Faith
Country: Thothia
For the Order of Heldann, I would suggest that it is part of the Thyatian Faith, but a separate organization. I could see arguments for it belonging even to the Church of Thyatis though since it is such an open organization, where each temple is pretty much independent from the other. However, given the specific nature of the Heldannic Knights, it would probably be best to consider them a separate Church.
Some words of explaination to this thread:
Unlike previous writeups, I decided here to sort the churches/immortals/pantheons by their underlaying faith, rather than by country, organization or immortals (pantheon). Like there are many different Christian church organizations for instance, the same would apply to Mystaran churches, who share more or less the same ethos and pantheons.
This also stresses the reltionship between churches like the Church of Thyatis, Karameikos, Darokin and the Heldannic Order, who all (at least IMC) share more or less the same beliefs and recognize the same immortals, though may differ in emphasis on some of these aspects.
I also postulate that say the Church of Karameikos recognizes the immortals of the Church of Thyatis even if it does not officially honor all of them. Also, by including the "Roots" section, I have made an attempt at explaining the historical links between the religions, for instance claiming a historic connection between the Thyatian Faith and the Eternal Truth...
Comments?
Håvard
Also, by including the "Roots" section, I have made an attempt at explaining the historical links between the religions, for instance claiming a historic connection between the Thyatian Faith and the Eternal Truth...
Comments?
The Thyatian religion seems to take from many sources -- Antalian, Hinterlander, Ochalean, Pearl Islander, etc., even though it has a strong Thyatian "core" (Vanya, Valerias and Tarastia).
The Thyatian religion seems to take from many sources -- Antalian, Hinterlander, Ochalean, Pearl Islander, etc., even though it has a strong Thyatian "core" (Vanya, Valerias and Tarastia).
Indeed. It is specifically mentioned in the gaz that the Thyatian Empire specializes in adopting immortals, customs and technology from other cultures that they conquer and integrate into their own.
:-) Jesper
One good example is of course the Traladaran Three. Halav, Petra and Zirchev have Traladaran origins. IMC the Thyatian Church and of course the Church of Karameikos have not only "adopted" them but also rewritten them. The Three are considered to be elder deities who only appeared in Traladaran history via mortal figures. - The imperial theology doesn't wish to "give credit" to the Traladara.
The most serious conflicts have concerned the Thyatian church and the Ylari. Many Ylari factions are wary against such "appropriation" and for example deny that Al-Kalim's "Old Man of the Sea" could be seen to be the same figure as Protius in Thyatian lore.
On the other hand the PCs have had trouble with Al-Kalimian fanatics who wish to stop exploration of Alasiyan religious history. The PCs found evidence of the cult of Odin ("Otan") in Nithia, which the fanatics consider dangerous - especially since the archealogist in the group is Thyatian-born!
The Thyatian religion seems to take from many sources -- Antalian, Hinterlander, Ochalean, Pearl Islander, etc., even though it has a strong Thyatian "core" (Vanya, Valerias and Tarastia).
I like Jesper and TC's throughts on how the CoT adopts forreign immortals, yet integrates them into its own belief system. The Thyatians themselves would ofcourse dismiss this. OTOH, IMC I emphasize the Thyatian Core immortals you identify. I have also expanded this list to include quite a few immortals that were not mentioned in DoTe yet clearly are central Mystaran Immortals without too many links to other Faiths. Among these are Ixion, Khoronus and Protius. I might also be tempted to include the "Olympians" since there arent by far enough immortals in the Core Thyatian pantheons to cover even the most basic portfolios.
Håvard
I have also expanded this list to include quite a few immortals that were not mentioned in DoTe yet clearly are central Mystaran Immortals without too many links to other Faiths. Among these are Ixion, Khoronus and Protius.
Same here, especially regarding Protius and Ixion (and Asterius as well). With Giulio, we did some work on Thyatian religion, even though I don't know whether it's still on line (most of it went in the geocities "purge").
Any thoughts on religious sects?
For the Dwarven Church, I envision it as intimately linked with the clan structure. So Dwarven Clerics are still bound to their clan, and each clan may have differing religious views. Also, Kagyar is not the only Immortal of the Dwarven Pantheon, even though he is the most important one. Some Clans may put a greater emphasis on others. The Non-Rockhome clans will have a greater tendency to have differing religious views from what the Rockhome clans do.
For the Northern Dwarves I suspect most of them are actually followers of Aasatru and have abandoned Kagyar altogether...
Håvard
For the Northern Dwarves I suspect most of them are actually followers of Aasatru and have abandoned Kagyar altogether...
I don't know what to think about that one...
To me it is a sort of betrayal of one's own race to abandon the race's patron immortal and adopt the immortals of another race.
Anybody else have thoughts on this?
:-) Jesper
Organized Cults:
Church of Universal Harmony
Church of Darokin
Church of Essuria
Church of Karameikos
Church of Narvaez
Chuch of Renardie
Church of Thyatis
Church of Traladara
Council of Alphatian Temples
Cult of Halav
People's Temple
Temple of Bozdogan
Temple of Rafiel
Temple of Yav
Philosophies & religious movements
Antalian Cult
Augrism
Celestial Court
Children of Atruaghin
Cult of the High Heroes
Dwarvish Cult of Kagyar
Dainrouw
Druidism
Elendaen
Eternal Truth
Karimari Cult
Minrothism
Samdu
Shamanism
Temple of Rad
Tortle Cult
All of them have been mentioned in official supplements, although many of them have never been fully detailed -see Church of Thyatis, of Essuria, of Darokin, Dwarvish Cult of Kagyar, Church of Renardie and of Narvaez, or the Temple of Bozdogan (something which I did when I wrote the Codex Immortalis).
Only the Council of Alphatian Temples is my own invention, while the Celestial Court has been rewritten based on the original work of Kit Navarro :D :embarrass
Obviously the list is not complete, since I need to add also the Heldannic Order, the Arachnian Mysticism, the Thothian Cult and all of the the Hollow World cults among others.. ;)
I don't know what to think about that one...
To me it is a sort of betrayal of one's own race to abandon the race's patron immortal and adopt the immortals of another race.
Anybody else have thoughts on this?
Well, it depends on how you handle the Northern Dwarves. The way I see them, they are pretty much outcasts from Rockhome in any case. That said, what I suggested for these guys was written without giving the issue much prior thought, so I havent really made a final decision on these guys.
Håvard
That's the list of the churches AND movements I described so far in my Immortals' manual:
Organized Cults:
Church of Universal Harmony
Church of Darokin
Church of Essuria
Church of Karameikos
Church of Narvaez
Chuch of Renardie
Church of Thyatis
Church of Traladara
Council of Alphatian Temples
Cult of Halav
People's Temple
Temple of Bozdogan
Temple of Rafiel
Temple of Yav
Philosophies & religious movements
Antalian Cult
Augrism
Celestial Court
Children of Atruaghin
Cult of the High Heroes
Dwarvish Cult of Kagyar
Dainrouw
Druidism
Elendaen
Eternal Truth
Karimari Cult
Minrothism
Samdu
Shamanism
Temple of Rad
Tortle Cult
All of them have been mentioned in official supplements, although many of them have never been fully detailed -see Church of Thyatis, of Essuria, of Darokin, Dwarvish Cult of Kagyar, Church of Renardie and of Narvaez, or the Temple of Bozdogan (something which I did when I wrote the Codex Immortalis).
Only the Council of Alphatian Temples is my own invention :D :embarrass
Thanks for posting these Marco! They will be very useful for completing the project. How will all of these fit into the division of Faiths?
Håvard
To me it is a sort of betrayal of one's own race to abandon the race's patron immortal and adopt the immortals of another race.
Anybody else have thoughts on this?
The dwarves of the Northern Reaches are considered as "downtrodden" by the Rockhome dwarves. It is then likely this derives also from the fact that they have adopted not only the typical norse lifestyle, but also some of their cultural features, such as religion.
I believe 70% of the Northern Reaches dwarves do worship the gods of the Antalian Cult and have substituted Kagyar with Volund (Wayland), while the remaining 30% are prolly still loyal to Kagyar.
Obviously the list is not complete, since I need to add also the Heldannic Order, the Arachnian Mysticism, the Thothian Cult and all of the the Hollow World cults among others.. ;)
It is a nice list, but I'd say you should also include the humanoid cults, how giants organise their worship and also the underground sects worshipping immortals such as Orcus, Alphaks, Arik etc.
That would be swell!
:-) Jesper
I like the idea of a general "Faith" as a tool for a GM & players.
If I understand your intention correctly, the Faiths are something like cultural pantheons, general formations of religions beliefs in cultural areas.
Along these lines I'd say that:
Churches are their concrete institutions, and don't necessarily follow the "heuristic" lines of the Faiths. Thus the Thyatian imperial church might adopt Thor as a warrior deity, or the Traladaran Three.
--> Or they might try more careful approaches, like saying that Tubak is actually Ixion in another guise. (Which is true, but the Ethies might not like it) And so on.
So the original Thyatian "Faith" remains, but its organisations are "polluted" with elements from other Faiths.
So Faiths give us idea of historical origins and general ethnological background (of some of the Immortals also), whereas churches are organisation "today".
Some churches might be more closed, and others might have a policy of colonization, but they are limited to one project (Church of Karameikos).
Church of Darokin on the other hand might welcome new cults within its confines quite often (without the colonising spirit).
--> Even though it has "Thyatian" origin when it comes to the core pantheon, I'd think that their church organisation is very distinct. Their origins are in a national project of integration.
Within the churches you may still have temples and sects of some individual Immortals (or even groups of Immortals), as organisations of some autonomy and even paladin orders.
Then you can have "heretic" sects that break away from the original church:
Church of Karameikos, Heldann Order. Some of them remain marginal, some transform into churches of their own.
But in keeping with the spirit of many published adventures and the original D&D-feel (at least mine), I'd still keep open the possibility of individual indipendent Cults/Temples. They haven't joined a church but only worship the single Individual without paying attention to a determineate pantheon.
--> Actually this is important in cases like the Norse Faith. They don't seem to have an organised church of any kind. Their faith is organised as cults of individual immortals - of course the cults recognise each other.
I tried out these ideas on the MML aroung the Heldannic Knights a month or two ago.
I like the idea of a general "Faith" as a tool for a GM & players.
If I understand your intention correctly, the Faiths are something like cultural pantheons, general formations of religions beliefs in cultural areas.
Yep, that is pretty close to it. The Faith would be the general religious beliefs, ethos and core myths. While often connected to the various individual immortals/pantheons, it has the advantage of being separate from these. My categories are broad so as to cover faiths that have spread beyond the borders of a single country, which also helps develope the cultural relations between various known world countries.
This also helps explain why certain concepts, values and myths exist in the teachings of more than one religious institution/organization. This is especially true for the Thyatian Faith, which many Churches still follow (with variations), just as there are many denominations within the Christian Faith, and even more national variations for various churches, sects and cults all considered to be Christian. The same is true for other RW faiths as well.
Along these lines I'd say that:
Churches are their concrete institutions, and don't necessarily follow the "heuristic" lines of the Faiths. Thus the Thyatian imperial church might adopt Thor as a warrior deity, or the Traladaran Three.
--> Or they might try more careful approaches, like saying that Tubak is actually Ixion in another guise. (Which is true, but the Ethies might not like it) And so on.
So the original Thyatian "Faith" remains, but its organisations are "polluted" with elements from other Faiths.
Agreed. This is a good explaination to the flexible relationship between pantheons and faiths. While a Thyatian might say that Tubak is just another name for Ixion. An Ethengar would rather say that Ixion is just the Thyatian name of Tubak, or he might deny any relation between the two at all.
In general I consider most canon material as written from a Thyatian perspective. This also goes to include things like the name Immortals, which is not used by the Antallians, and possibly not by Ethengars and Athruaginers either who might prefer names like Great Spirits or Mysteries.
So Faiths give us idea of historical origins and general ethnological background (of some of the Immortals also), whereas churches are organisation "today".
Yep. I also added the "roots" section to cover speculation the real ancient origins of the faiths. The Churches are indeed the organizations today and they follow one of the Faiths, but might disagree with other Churches what the best interpretation of that faith is.
Some churches might be more closed, and others might have a policy of colonization, but they are limited to one project (Church of Karameikos).
Church of Darokin on the other hand might welcome new cults within its confines quite often (without the colonising spirit).
--> Even though it has "Thyatian" origin when it comes to the core pantheon, I'd think that their church organisation is very distinct. Their origins are in a national project of integration.
Absolutely. I think most Churches have some sort of national character, even the Church of Thyatis. An equivalent to the Roman Catholic Church doesn't exist in this sense on Mystara, since it requires a stronger bond between the Churches of the Thyatian faith to produce something similar.
Within the churches you may still have temples and sects of some individual Immortals (or even groups of Immortals), as organisations of some autonomy and even paladin orders.
Then you can have "heretic" sects that break away from the original church:
Church of Karameikos, Heldann Order. Some of them remain marginal, some transform into churches of their own.
Yep, this is very cool. Ofcourse, not all sects and cults can be included in such a simplistic writeup, but most will belong within one faith or other.
But in keeping with the spirit of many published adventures and the original D&D-feel (at least mine), I'd still keep open the possibility of individual indipendent Cults/Temples. They haven't joined a church but only worship the single Individual without paying attention to a determineate pantheon.
The Church of Thyatis works much in this way actually. Although its myths and legends are connected to the entire Thyatian pantheon, each individual temple, usually associated with one single immortal, has almost complete autonomy and will focus more or less entirely on the teachings about that immortal. Most such temples will not deny the existance of other immortals however, and may even behave in a friendly manner to clerics of other immortals, depending on the nature of the immortal obviously.
--> Actually this is important in cases like the Norse Faith. They don't seem to have an organised church of any kind. Their faith is organised as cults of individual immortals - of course the cults recognise each other.
Yes. I think I should replace the "church" entry with "organizations". The Antalians organize their religion through cults which are linked to the clan structure. Often, Clan authorities (Jarls, or even family leaders/housekarls) will perform religious functions. As you say, these are often strongly associated with one chosen immortal, but are linked to the rest of the pantheon by the common Faith.
Håvard
In general I consider most canon material as written from a Thyatian perspective. This also goes to include things like the name Immortals, which is not used by the Antallians, and possibly not by Ethengars and Athruaginers either who might prefer names like Great Spirits or Mysteries.
This is a great idea. I'll adopt it immediately in my campaign, as the PCs are trekking in Vestland and Ethengar.
An equivalent to the Roman Catholic Church doesn't exist in this sense on Mystara, since it requires a stronger bond between the Churches of the Thyatian faith to produce something similar.
And of course it is unlikely that anything of the sort will emerge. The fact that we have polytheism with real and acting "deities" is a powerful antidote.
The Church of Thyatis works much in this way actually. Although its myths and legends are connected to the entire Thyatian pantheon, each individual temple, usually associated with one single immortal, has almost complete autonomy and will focus more or less entirely on the teachings about that immortal. Most such temples will not deny the existance of other immortals however, and may even behave in a friendly manner to clerics of other immortals, depending on the nature of the immortal obviously.
I've ended up with a double system. There are Churches as overarching organisations that have links to secular power, especially in countries like Darokin and Thyatis - their cosmopolitan nature requires some unifying religious organisations that still recognise different deities. I've modeled this somewhat on the basis of republican Rome. So such churches nominate Priests that represent the different cults within the church, when it somes to advicing secular powers, organising the finances of the church and so on.
- Note: But as said above, this is far from such an organisation as the Catolic Church.
- I also use the concept of "church priest". So there are priests that focus on the whole pantheon of the church. They would be theologians, philosophers or something like that.
But there are also temple cults that have stayed out of (or strayed away from) the unified churches due to religious reasons. Their priests usually focus much more on a single Immortal. The attitudes towards other cults and churches vary according to the temple's credo and the priest's personality of course.
--> One of these might be the Hattian Cult of Vanya as written by Bruce Heard. Vanya was surely worshipped before that, but never with such a fervour.
The Antalians organize their religion through cults which are linked to the clan structure. Often, Clan authorities (Jarls, or even family leaders/housekarls) will perform religious functions. As you say, these are often strongly associated with one chosen immortal, but are linked to the rest of the pantheon by the common Faith.
This is especially true of the Antalians, as they have so distinct culture and a common ethnic history. The various Immortals are closely linked to this history.
As I stated eaarlier, I interpret most canon sources to be written from the point of view of the Thyatian Faith. This includes:
The Term Immortal
As I mentioned before, the Term Immortal is used mainly by followers of the Churches associated with the Thyatian Faith including the more distantly related Way of the Eternal Truth. Other Faiths tend to have other names for their deities such as Great Spirits or Mysteries.
Ascending to Immortality
Canon contradicts itself on this issue, but IMC, legends about mortals rising to the rank of Immortality is common in the Thyatian Faith. All the same, this is hardly something most people would consider an possible future for themselves. Still, since it is in fact true that most Immortals are former mortals, it is likely that most Faiths have such myths, even though their names for the Immortals do not have this implication.
Names of Immortals
Where nothing else is noted, the names used for the Immortals (in the WotI Codex and elsewhere), the Thyatian name is used. Exceptions are those who are strongly associated with another Faith and/or have no presence within the Thyatian Pantheon. Immortals who are mentioned, yet are not offcially linked to any Faith/church then, are likely to be part of the Thyatian Faith. Ive used this to justify that Ixion, Khoronus, The Twelve Watchers, Tyche, the Olympians and Tyche all are part of the Thyatian pantheon, even though canon does not specifically state that. DotE gives a list of some Immortals who are worshipped in Thyatis, but several of these are _not_ part of the Thyatian Pantheon, and I think it is reasonable that the list is longer than those who are provided.
Spheres
The concept of Spheres is also known to Thyatian Clerics, and they have theories on which immortals belong to which sphere, and how the Spheres tie the Multiverse together. Other Faiths usually do not have these concepts, but may have similar models, perhaps linked to the elements for instance. Wizards and Sages are also familiar with the Spheres; religion and science walk hand in hand in this Age....
Alternate Identities
Thyatians like to nativise Immortals from other Faiths. It is central to their religion that deities worshipped by others most likely simply are their own immortals using other names. This has also allowed them to incorporate non-native immortals, often giving them new Thyatian-style names in the process. This gives the Thyatians a sense of superiority, claiming that they know the Truth, while others simply understand a fragment of the Truth held by the Thyatians.
The Emperor
The Emperor is officially the Head of the Church of Thyatis, though it is not a power the Temples will allow him to exercise. Still, it has found its way into the Mythology. OTOH, this fact is denied by the other Churches assocated with the Thyatian Faith, and is in fact the main source of the schisma between the Church of Thyatis and its fellow Churches such as the Church of Karameikos and the Church of Darokin.
Håvard
For the Church of Thyatis, I have always been of the
opinion that there is a bit more to it than just a
wide bunch of cults devoted to individual immortals.
There is for instance an overarching Faith connecting
these cults, even though the organization connecting
them is very lose at best.
Syncretism exists within the Church of Thyatis, but
much less so with the Churches of Karameikos and
Traladara. (Darokin is open to speculation).
The Antalian Faith, if we go with the RW Aasatru
paralell, accepts the existance of other Immortals,
and acceptance of healing/aid and even usage of relics
from other immortals, but joining a forreign cult is
absolutely banned. In Antalian society, religion is
firmly connected with the clan structure, and
abandoning one's religion means turning your back on
your family and clan.
The Ethengar would probably simply assume that others
worship various hero spirits (true, in fact), but
probably feel little reason to involve these in their
daily lives since they are not connected to their
lands or their people.
The Eternal Truth is even more absolutist than the
Church of Karameikos, and would not allow worship of
any immortal other than Al-Kalim.
The fact that Mystara has clerical magic does indeed
change things from the R/W situation. Few people doubt
that the Immortals exist, even immortals outside their
own Faith. However, the nature of those immortals will
be disputed. Most forreign Immortals will be suspected
to be untrustworthy at best, demonic at worst. R/W
comparisons may be something like Faeries and Demons.
Okay, so Faeries arent exactly evil, but they are
likely to get you in trouble no matter how many
presents they offer you.
This is not so different from the R/W medieval
situation actually. Unlike the situation these days,
medieval man rarely disbelieved the existance of magic
and supernatural beings, both of benign and malign
existance, though he was likely to rely on the local
priest to tell him which was which.
The closest to Atheists in the Known World are the
people of Glantri. They also do not deny the existance
of Immortals, but frown upon Clerics which they see as
people who have sold their souls to more powerful
beings rather than persuing the power of magic on
their own.
Attitudes towards forreign Immortals:
...
The Eternal Truth is even more absolutist than the
Church of Karameikos, and would not allow worship of
any immortal other than Al-Kalim.
Interesting, Havard. However, the way you see the Eternal Truth is the way I used to view it. After re-reading it in preping for the players to go through Ylaruam earlier this year, it seems to me that the Eternal Truth is about the 'proper way' to rever the immortal Guardians and respect your fellow man, through the teachings of Al-Kalim.
I think they just see 'infidels' as either not honouring the Immortals at all or trying to do so in an inappropriate manner. It also seems that the Immortals should not be named (other than Al-Kalim who is their prophet/Immortal). Any other views out there?
Also particularly enlightening IMO is the passage in GAZ12 where Saru the Serpent IIRC explains the different attitude of the Ethengarians and the Ylari towards the immortals.
The Ethies KNOW there are many immortals around the world and respect them, but worship Yamuga, Tubak and Cretia not because they are above the others, but because they recognize that these three are so much interested in their welfare and thus important for their life, and they deserve their daily reverence. The Ethies think that the Ylari however turn too on the fanatical side when they demand that everybody worship the IMMORTALS the way they do.
So for the Ylari, the infidels are not those who worship OTHER immortals, but those who do not follow the Eternal Truth, which is the ONLY PROPER WAY to honor ALL Immortal Guardians without displeasing any of them. So the dwarvish and elvish monotheism are obviously considered erratical faiths by the True Believers, as much as any of the pantheistic churches of the KW - Traladara, Ethengar, Minrothad, etc. ;)
The Church of Thyatis (which is briefly documented in DotE and GAZ5) in my view is a philosophical church that has more to do with the welfare of the Empire rather than with pursuing higher theological truths. This means that it does not honor SPECIFIC immortals, although it recognizes a group of deities which are considered favourably disposed towards the Empire, and therefore praised. This way, you can find philosophical clerics (serving the cause of Law for Thyatis), pantheist clerics (serving the pantheon of the church) and more rarely even specialist priests (serving one of the protectors of Thyatis).
I've written a rather long description of this church, but unfortunately I lack the time to do the translation right now..:P
hope these bits are interesting enough to spark the discussion
I second Hugin's view of the Eternal Truth.
Also particularly enlightening IMO is the passage in GAZ12 where Saru the Serpent IIRC explains the different attitude of the Ethengarians and the Ylari towards the immortals.
The Ethies KNOW there are many immortals around the world and respect them, but worship Yamuga, Tubak and Cretia not because they are above the others, but because they recognize that these three are so much interested in their welfare and thus important for their life, and they deserve their daily reverence. The Ethies think that the Ylari however turn too on the fanatical side when they demand that everybody worship the IMMORTALS the way they do.
So for the Ylari, the infidels are not those who worship OTHER immortals, but those who do not follow the Eternal Truth, which is the ONLY PROPER WAY to honor ALL Immortal Guardians without displeasing any of them. So the dwarvish and elvish monotheism are obviously considered erratical faiths by the True Believers, as much as any of the pantheistic churches of the KW - Traladara, Ethengar, Minrothad, etc. ;)
In retrospect I agree. On the other hand, I am wondering if these arent just different perspectives on the same facts. The Ylarii would accept worship of other immortals if it was done within the Eternal Truth, but in fact the Eternal Truth is such a narrow path that by default only Al-kalim can show the way? AFAIK other immortals are not worshipped in Ylaruam anymore. The Gnoll and The Old Man of the Desert have been all but forgotten these days....
The Church of Thyatis (which is briefly documented in DotE and GAZ5) in my view is a philosophical church that has more to do with the welfare of the Empire rather than with pursuing higher theological truths. This means that it does not honor SPECIFIC immortals, although it recognizes a group of deities which are considered favourably disposed towards the Empire, and therefore praised. This way, you can find philosophical clerics (serving the cause of Law for Thyatis), pantheist clerics (serving the pantheon of the church) and more rarely even specialist priests (serving one of the protectors of Thyatis).
I've written a rather long description of this church, but unfortunately I lack the time to do the translation right now..:P
hope these bits are interesting enough to spark the discussion
This is indeed interesting! So little is revealed on the Church of Thyatis that much is left to speculation. My interpretation is a bit different from yours though. I have based it on the following assumptions:
1) DotE provides a list of Immortals, some of obvious forreign origin, others lack this and are thus considered "native" Thyatian Immortals.
2) The alignment system according to Gygax is based on Judeo Christian values (Lawful and Good anyway), thus some elements can be borrowed from these religions for understanding basics of the ethos.
3) Thyatis is based on The Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire as well as generic medieval Europe, these also suggest some things about the nature of the Church.
4) The Church of Karameikos is derived from the Church of Thyatis, thus it may have many similar traits. (Though it could be very different if you want it to).
5) WotI lists many Immortals considered Major ones who are not worshipped under their default name in any specific country (Ixion, Khoronus etc). I have also made the assumption that these are part of the Thyatian pantheon as well as the Olympians. This does not seem to differ too much from your writeup BTW.
Beyond this though, its mostly up to the individual DM (sorry about the pun ;) ) I like your ideas about the connection of the cults to the welfare of the Empire. I have also tried to make that connection and even included something about the Emperor being the symbolic head of the Church. IMC theological questions are still central to the Cults of Thyatis though, even if their social functions are extremely important. They also have an impact on politics even though they have not been able to act as a unified Church in a long time (Bruce's comment that the Church of Thyatis is *now* a defunct organization.)
As for Clerics, I see this more as a rules question than anything else. I would have no problem seeing all these different Cleric varians that you mention though IMC for the sake of keeping things simple I rule that all Clerics must chose a specific immortal.
I would love to here different opinions and comments on this extremely interesting topic.
Håvard
The Ylarii would accept worship of other immortals if it was done within the Eternal Truth, but in fact the Eternal Truth is such a narrow path that by default only Al-kalim can show the way? AFAIK other immortals are not worshipped in Ylaruam anymore...
They are ALL worshipped, but not individually. They are collectively revered (refered to as the Immortal Guardians) and are not named at all. Distinction between Immortals seems to be a major reason the True Believers call others Infidels!
I like [DM's] ideas about the connection of the cults to the welfare of the Empire.
Same here. I think the CoT is quite philosophical in nature. The worship of the Immortals, and which ones, seem more a personal choice whereas the church itself is what connects the Immortals to the Empire (if that makes any sense).
The break off of the Chuch of Karameikos seems to have taken the personal choices and worship of Immortals under its authority and control.
As for Clerics, I see this more as a rules question than anything else. I would have no problem seeing all these different Cleric varians that you mention though IMC for the sake of keeping things simple I rule that all Clerics must chose a specific immortal.
For me it's not just a rules question but a logic question. Where does a cleric of Law gain his powers? Is his just a sorceror with ideologies? IMC, every cleric serves a specific Immortal, although he'd aid any need of his church. I see a cleric having a single Immortal patron (out of a pantheon for instance) the same way that a cleric focuses on certain domains or aspects of that single Immortal.
I've come to the point where, should a cleric wish to serve the ethos of Law for example, he would become a servant of the Sphere of Matter and Law would be one of his domains. At least this way I can reason that his powers originate from one the spheres of power (which I also believe is the same source of power for the Immortals themselves, but that is another story).
P.S. Good to have you back, Håvard!
They are ALL worshipped, but not individually. They are collectively revered (refered to as the Immortal Guardians) and are not named at all. Distinction between Immortals seems to be a major reason the True Believers call others Infidels!
Interesting! All the immortals are honored as a collective group, though if identified individually by followers these are considered blasphemers. This seems like a clever ploy by Al-Kalim to make sure he is the only one who is worshipped specifically as the one showing the path to True Worship of the immortals... Am I onto something here?
Same here. I think the CoT is quite philosophical in nature. The worship of the Immortals, and which ones, seem more a personal choice whereas the church itself is what connects the Immortals to the Empire (if that makes any sense).
Yes, but I still think it is of interest to distinguish between "native" Thyatian Immortals and those who have been adopted into the faith. In theory, virtually any Immortal may be adopted into the Thyatian faith, but worship must then be done within the borders of Thyatian Tradition. Thyatian religious tradition is ofcourse of a changing nature also, but there are certain things at its core which remain since the early days of the Empire. IMC the creation of the Empire itself is an important part of the Thyatian Faith, and it is believed that the Immortals instituted the First Emperor.
Some other things the various cults of Thyatis would be likely to have in common:
* Creation Myth
* A concept of Immortal Hierarchy
* Enemy Immortals (Thanatos, Nyx, Demogorgon and Orcus are central ones IMC)
* Concepts such as The Soul, Sin, Afterlife
* Rites of passage (Baptism, Coming of Age, Marriage, Burials)
* Social Functions
* The institution of Empire and Emperor as a reflection of Immortal society.
* Anything else?
IMC, I have also downplayed the role of forreign immortals dramatically since I find that it confuses things a bit.
The break off of the Chuch of Karameikos seems to have taken the personal choices and worship of Immortals under its authority and control.
My interpretation is that the Church of Thyatis was much more like this in the past. However, the authority of a centralized Church has been lost there due to the increasing power of the individual cults, while the CoK is an attempt to revive this centralized authority. This is their greatest advantage against the Church of Traladara.
Clerics and Immortals:
For me it's not just a rules question but a logic question. Where does a cleric of Law gain his powers? Is his just a sorceror with ideologies? IMC, every cleric serves a specific Immortal, although he'd aid any need of his church. I see a cleric having a single Immortal patron (out of a pantheon for instance) the same way that a cleric focuses on certain domains or aspects of that single Immortal.
The explaination I could suggest is that their power is derived from Immortals supporting the cause of Law, or the cause of a Church, but that these would be considered subordinate to the ideology they serve. The Immortals then would be considered more like saints than deities then...
I've come to the point where, should a cleric wish to serve the ethos of Law for example, he would become a servant of the Sphere of Matter and Law would be one of his domains. At least this way I can reason that his powers originate from one the spheres of power (which I also believe is the same source of power for the Immortals themselves, but that is another story).
I agree that the Spheres are the source of power of the Immortals. The idea of Clerics accessing that power directly is fascinating, though I'm not sure it should be allowed since that would also make them more wizardly. While onto the subject of the source of magic, I am beginning to be less happy about the idea of magic being associated with the Sphere of Energy. If (Arcane) magic is is drawn directly from the Spheres (as you suggest for Clerics above), this would be an excellent explaination for the animosity between Clerics and Wizards. Drawing on Holy Power without going through the Immortals would be seen as the ultimate blasphemy! It also makes the name Nucleus of the Spheres make more sense...
P.S. Good to have you back, Håvard!
You too Hugin!
Håvard
Interesting! All the immortals are honored as a collective group, though if identified individually by followers these are considered blasphemers. This seems like a clever ploy by Al-Kalim to make sure he is the only one who is worshipped specifically as the one showing the path to True Worship of the immortals... Am I onto something here?
Perhaps- especially if you think about how it may relate to my old article The Truth Behind the Eternal Truth.
I have been meaning to update that one, but it was going to be my further contention that Al-Kalim's companion, "Farid", was actually a mortal identity of Thanatos, who sought to use Al-Kalim's popularity to fuel his own immortal power. Perhaps "Farid" even spurred the popular Al-Kalim onto the path of Immortality, just so he could usurp his identity later.
Then, when Al-Kalim finally returned, only to discover the entire nation of Ylaruam was worshipping "him", he adopted another identity to try and countermand the damage done in his name, and to fight against Immortal corruption.
Who might he be? Well, Al-Kalim was always about taking personal responsibility and throwing off the shackles of control, and at the end of the Wrath of the Immortals, a new Immortal turned up decrying the ways of the Immortals-That-Be and exhorting the virtues of mortals and the choice of self-sufficience over blind faith...
Humanoid Shamanism/Mysticism
Pantheon: Humanoid Immortals
Church: Holy Ground
Roots: Nithian Faith, Spiritualism
Country: The Broken Lands
You can break them out to each regions, but there are similarities to all of their shamanistic worship.
GW
The philosophical churches do not get their spells by worshipping one of the Spheres. They do follow either CHaos or Law as ethic belief embodied by different set of rituals or different focuses, which are not however immortals. This means that they do not actively worship the Sphere of X, but Law or Chaos. This possibility was first presented in the old Basic set, and has always been a characteristic of Mystara.
So what does this mean? Where do they get their powers?
The only possible explanation, as Verro Diabolico once explained to me, is that they draw their spells from two different sources that make up the Multiverse:
Order (embodied by the Spheres of Energy, Thought, Matter and Time)
Chaos (embodied by the Sphere of Entropy)
When THIS cycle of the Multiverse will come to its end, Entropy will become the new "order", and the four remaining spheres will fight against it, becoming the representatives of Chaos (see also the discussion about the wheel of time in PC1, Tall tales of the Wee Folk).
That's the only possible way for mortals to "circumvent" the immortals and access directly to divine powers.
AS for arcane powers, they permeate the Multiverse, so they're theoretically much easier to access and to wield by those who grasp their nature and secrets (arcane spellcasters and sages). ;)
The NoS is a special effect LIMITED ONLY to Mystara. It does not affect the whole Multiverse for sure, and we do not even know if it affects the Prime beyond Mystara (it's not clear in GAZ3 or WotI, but judging from GAZ3 I'd say NO).
I agree that Arcane Power should be easier to access. Your description about it being a separate force, similar to Chaos and Order, but permeating the Multiverse is interesting, and from what I understand, this means that Arcane Power also stems from the Spheres (The building blocks of the multiverse). It makes alot of sense to me.
I agree that the draining effects of the NoS should be limited to Mystara. I like your suggestion about the Sky Shield being the limit that you posted elsewhere. It also makes the Sky Shield a bit more interesting, I only thought it was annoying in the past.
Håvard
[Edit] Here's another one that may be helpful.[/Edit]
But Just to give you some food for the brain on this subject, since It's something I'm considering these days, here's what I thought about the original faiths of the original human races (I'm basing this idea on Agathokles's article):
The basic hypothesis is that the human pantheons closely match the trifunctional model by Dumezil (although that is a reduction of the real complexity of the pantheons). In this model, there are three main divine "functions", corresponding to the three social classes (warriors, priests/magicians/rulers, producers of wealth).
The Three Functions
1. Knowledge, Rulership
(a) Kingship, Wisdom, Wizardry (and Trickery)
(b) Law, Order, Justice, Kin/Race
2. Fighters, War
(a) Strategy, Battles, Lightning
(b) Combat, Duelling, Thunder
3. Protection, Service
(a) Healing, Growth, Birth, Protection
(b) Wealth, Crafts, Trade
Now, from Hollow World direct quotes we know that these are the common ancestral deities worshipped by the three major ethnic races:
Tanagoro:
Korotiku
Ixion
Valerias
Oltec:
Ka
Ixion
Neathar:
Odin
We have then to choose a third deity for the Oltec pantheon and two other deities for the Neathars. My method of choice takes into consideration only the ancestral immortals, those already immortal by the time these three races spread on Mystara.
Judging by the fact that Ixion is present both in the Tanagoro and Oltec pantheons, and that he's a major deity, I would suggest to use him in the Neathar pantheon too, in that same role (nr 2 in Dumezil's model). The third immortal to fill in the Protective role for the NEathar is IMHO Terra, which always IMVHO plays the role of Frigg in the Antalian pantheon for example, and Yamuga among the Ethengarians.
That leaves out a place in the Oltec pantheon. Judging from the scant info we have, it may be that Pax could have occupied that place (Paxculli) either as 1. or 3. figure. After her disappearence, Utnapishtim (1) or Ninsun (3) may have replaced her among the Oltecs (depending on where you want to put Ka).
So here's my final list:
Tanagoro:
1. Korotiku
2. Ixion
3. Valerias
Neathar:
1. Odin
2. Ixion (as Tyr)
3. Terra
Oltec:
1. Pax (later Utnapishtim)
2. Ixion
3. Ka
or (if you prefer to have a female deity occupying role nr 3)
1. Ka
2. Ixion
3. Pax (later Ninsun)
Another possibility is to substitute Terra and Pax with Valerias in all three cases, thus making her and Ixion the ever present couple in all the ancient pantheons.
INterestingly enough, if you notice the same spheres are always present in each pantheon:
Area 1 goes to Thought
Area 2 goes to Energy
Area 3 goes to Matter
And:
Tanagoro tend towards Chaos (Korotiku and Valerias are Chaotic)
Neathar tend towards Law (Odin and Terra are Lawful)
Oltec tend towards Law (Pax and Ka are Lawful)
This model is obviously a bit too "stratified" and "simplistic" for Mystara, but it can be used to a certain extent to explain which were the three most important deities in each of the three initial ethnic groups of Mystara.
I would never use Verthandi (as Agathokles did) in any of the above described roles, since from my point of view he/she is a very unique deity, present in most pantheons of the Multiverse but not playing any active role (he represents time and especially FATE), deeply linked with Urd and Skuld in a way that trascends the common immortal hierarchies.
And so, it is that Ixion, father of the Sun, is the greatest war deity...
I saw him more as a "nature" deity, as he is the sun, he feeds crops, so he feeds people... he is the father of the light, the evershining light.