some questions about ravenloft... - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

some questions about ravenloft...

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Nov 15, 2005 10:33:38 There is no apparent way out of ravenloft once you are sucked in, correct?
And yet, the various areas still have tenuous connections with the worlds they originate from.

First question is this: why, if priests and clerics brought in with an area still have powers related to a god outside of ravenloft, and can lose those powers if a god dies or leaves or whatever, why do those gods not object to such cutting and pasting of the worlds they watch over? Do they have an agreement with whatever dark god controls ravenloft? Or dose this dark power have power over them?

Second question:

I understand that this is usually entirely up to the DM, but was there ever any statement from the authors as to what the dark power is, and what its agenda in creating ravenloft was? We know from one of the published accessories that this power seems to have a partially good nature, and sometimes takes the form of a human male with a rather angelic appearance, but is it just a sham? Surely any creature that could create a pit of evil like ravenloft is pure evil. Unless it was perhaps removing these lands to save their places of origin from even greater evil? Perhaps it did not even take them itself, and some ancient pact placed them there when a great act of evil was done, such as strahds murderous rampage? IS THERE ANY CLOSURE ON THE DARK POWER? DID THEY EVER TELL US WHAT HE/IT IS?

Thank you in advance if you can answer any of the above.
#2
solandras
Nov 15, 2005 11:43:22 "First question is this: why, if priests and clerics brought in with an area still have powers related to a god outside of ravenloft, and can lose those powers if a god dies or leaves or whatever, why do those gods not object to such cutting and pasting of the worlds they watch over? Do they have an agreement with whatever dark god controls ravenloft? Or dose this dark power have power over them?"

It is very possible that the gods do not have any agreement with the Dark Powers and that the don't have the resources to stop the DP or take the lands back. As well it is a theory that the clerics that are within Ravenloft actually gain their powers from either the Dark Powers, or just various gods that match their alignment. (side note, I've always hated the idea that clerics can get their powers by following an ideal without following a single god).

"Second question:

I understand that this is usually entirely up to the DM, but was there ever any statement from the authors as to what the dark power is, and what its agenda in creating ravenloft was? We know from one of the published accessories that this power seems to have a partially good nature, and sometimes takes the form of a human male with a rather angelic appearance, but is it just a sham? Surely any creature that could create a pit of evil like ravenloft is pure evil. Unless it was perhaps removing these lands to save their places of origin from even greater evil? Perhaps it did not even take them itself, and some ancient pact placed them there when a great act of evil was done, such as strahds murderous rampage? IS THERE ANY CLOSURE ON THE DARK POWER? DID THEY EVER TELL US WHAT HE/IT IS?"

I hear there was once a kind of "official" answer in one of the novels to the source and agenda of the Dark Powers, but likewise I have heard it to be dismissed by almost all other sources. As such once again it becomes the juristiction of the DM to decide what, if anything, the Dark Powers really are. I have MANY theories myself, such as in the end the Dark Powers are Neutral, stiving to either keep the balance of good/evil, or wishes to end the battle by making one side win, as a form of ineviability, forcing them to confront each other until one is gone.
#3
gonzoron
Nov 15, 2005 12:41:30 The official source solandras refers to is the novel Lord of the Necropolis, which has been officially declared non-canon. In it, the dark powers are prisoners themselves, and cultivating the darklords as stepping stones to act as a bridge to the prime material plane.

but the Ravenloft Dungeon Master's Guide confirms what most fans have always said: The Dark Powers are a plot device, for DM's to use & define as they see fit, and no official product should or will ever define them.

I'm curious where you saw this "male human with an angelic appearance." I don't recall that in any official product.

It's up to the individual DM if the gods don't interfere in Ravenloft because they can't or because they won't. All we know for sure is that they don't.
#4
malus_black
Nov 15, 2005 14:40:08
I'm curious where you saw this "male human with an angelic appearance." I don't recall that in any official product.

Possibly some confusion regarding the Gentleman Caller? But no, the Dark Powers have never (to our knowledge) taken on any recognizeable form, shape, or aspect (unless you count the Mists).
#5
Prof._Pacali
Nov 16, 2005 18:11:59 In the RLPHB, there is mention of the possibility of a Pact between the DP and the deitys of the D&D cosmology. Basicly, the DPs don't interfere in the Outer Planes, and allow the gods of lesser power or greater (essentially divine rank 6 or higher as defined in Deities and Demigods) to come and go as they please. In return the gods agree not to come and go as they please unless there is a major crisis, and allow the DPs to snatch people from the Material Plane as they will. The general consensus is that either the gods grant spells to divine casters as a result of the Pact, or the DPs themselves grant divine spells. The latter seems to be the case with "false gods" like The Wolf God, who have no counterpart in the D&D cosmology.

By the way it is possible to leave Ravenloft, either through a conjunction, a portal or a scroll of return. Conjunctions were described in the Black Box, as a way into and out of Ravenloft. The most famous was the Grand Conjunction, detailed in the module Roots of Evil. Portals can be found scattered across the Core, Clusters and Islands of Terror, in places like the Island of Agony, or Castle Hunadora. In 2E scrolls of return were lesser artifacts, allowing someone to punch a hole in the cosmos to return to their home plane. Alas in 3.5 some idiot made them ordinary magic items, as can be seen in the RLDMG.
#6
zombiegleemax
Nov 17, 2005 8:17:49 I always just viewed the Demiplane of Dread as part of the D&D cosmos...as the plane dealing with Dread, fear, etc. In this respect, the plane has it's powers for the same reason why the other planes behave as they do. The Dark Powers can therefore do anything they want to...so long as it fits with "Dread". The laws of the demiplane itself are there to cause maximum fear (a very basic aspect of fear is being trapped, which the demiplane does in different ways to everyone). So it has enough power over the gods to make them fear it, but not enough to actually DO anything to them...except steal their lands/worshipers and cut them off from the gods in question.

As for leaving, all the ways mentioned by Prof are accurate, also some modules allow escape if you take out a Darklord (DM option, basically if you only wanted to run a Weekend in Hell vs an actual campaign). Whether this is a reard or just the plane purging those that threaten to ruin it is for you to decide.
#7
zombiegleemax
Dec 09, 2005 20:40:26 Lord of the necropolis sort of explains what the Dark Powes are. Book is confusing as hell but pretty good because Azalin is responsable for everything Strahd is. There are ways out of Ravenloft in the books. One is having a major artifact that can cast planeshift. Then I think there's something in the Ravenloft DMG about Loremasters being able to find a way out.
#8
zombiegleemax
Dec 10, 2005 10:03:29 Do keep in mind that the Ravenloft game writers (to the best of my knowledge) don't consider Lord of the Necropolis in any way canonical, and on the whole prefer to remain coy about just what the Dark Powers might be up to...
#9
zombiegleemax
Dec 13, 2005 7:54:06
I understand that this is usually entirely up to the DM, but was there ever any statement from the authors as to what the dark power is, and what its agenda in creating ravenloft was?

I don't know this, but from a Meta-game-point-of-view, in a twisted way the Dark powers take on the rule of the allmighty unforgiving inscrutable God in gothic horror. Gothic Horror simply doesn't work well without the wrath of the One God, the victorians had to to fear in that stories.

Ravenloft in it's former "Weekend in Hell"-form, simply couldn't work that way, because the Weekenders usally have more than just one god to have faith in (offending one good will easily be lifted by pleasing some other god ...).

Thus instead of one god and the fear to wake his wrath, you have the Dark Powers and have to fear to please them...
#10
zombiegleemax
Dec 13, 2005 23:16:35 It could be viewed as some sortof parrelel universe where cosmic entities even stronger then the ones of normal D&D cosmology exsist. (Though not as abundant.) Thus, these lesser dieties (Atleast by The Dark Powers standards..) made a pact with The Dark Powers. They do not interfeare with Ravenloft, and Ravenloft does not inerfeare with the rest of Greyhawk. (Or whatever you want to call the Dungeons&Dragons universe.)

As for clerics, it could be assumed thier divine powers is a sortof "loophole", all pacts have them, ironic that it be the Holy, honourable, (atleast ussualy) ones that manage to "cheat the system" the most. Or, perhaps, the clerics just get thier powers from DPs.. Just because good is weaker in Ravenloft, does not mean it doesn't exsist. It's just not humanly possible. Ravenloft is just a better example of what a real fantasy world would look like.. wether for better or for worst.. (More then likely the latter..)

Just immagine The Dark Powers being discovered as The Old Ones/The Chthulu, and all your players and all your DMs will nod thier head and agree that what The Koga said made the most logical sense. Less our Greyhawk gods wanted to risk everything in an attempt to create a patheon war. A war they had very little chance of winning. Negotiations happen when someone realizes they are going to lose..
#11
rotipher
Dec 14, 2005 11:54:30 Just because the gods opt not to intervene as closely in Ravenloft as in other worlds doesn't HAVE to mean the DPs are stronger than the deities. Deities don't take a direct, hands-on approach to *Material Plane* affairs in general, either, even though (at least in most settings) there's no "overpowering force" to stop them from doing so: they just seem to reach an agreement amongst themselves, not to step in personally to interfere with the doings of the Material Plane's mortals. Yes, the DPs COULD be phenomenally mega-powered beings that are literally forcing the gods to stay out of their sandbox (Ravenloft)... but the deities might have *other* reasons to leave the Land of Mists alone, rather than just being pushed out by brute strength.
#12
breakdancin_bladesinger
Dec 14, 2005 17:55:44
I'm curious where you saw this "male human with an angelic appearance." I don't recall that in any official product

I beleive that was from a old dragon article about RL.It had to dealw/speelbooks in the lands of dread.It was a spirit that appeared to a crazy priest(of Ezra i think)
#13
thanael
Dec 18, 2005 14:17:33 Double post.
#14
thanael
Dec 18, 2005 14:19:11 Do any of these ring a bell?

I believe it might be on of the following two:

Dragon#234 (October 1996) - the Book of Souls
Author: Robert S Mullin
Content: A dread book, for wizards
Comment: Yep, the title of a Dread netbook, that inspired our former colleagues to venture into Ravenloft-themed netbooks… Interesting cursed book, its powers, and way to destroy it.

or:

Dragon#252 (October 1998) - Arcane Lore: Tome of Forbidden Lore
Author: Mathew L Martin
Content: Dark spells books, one of them by Azalin himself!
Content: Three dark spell books, one of them by Azalin himself (Book of Requiem)! Other two books are Tome of the Shackled Mind and The Revelation of the Prince of Twilight.
New spells: Book of Requiem - Blood's Call (control someone with his blood), Life Bond (channel life energy to a willing target), Death's Tithe (collect life energy from worshippers); Tome of the Shackled Mind - Corrupt Charm, Dark Desires (opens up the dark lusts of the victim's heart), The Revelation of the Prince of Twilight -Conjure rendered soul, Spirit's reunification.
Comment: Weird new spells. The quest for one of these books (or to forbid an evil group of finding / using it) could generate adventure hooks.

But I also think the reference might be to the Gentleman Caller. I'll have to look it up...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Nov 15, 2005 10:33:38	There is no apparent way out of ravenloft once you are sucked in, correct? And yet, the various areas still have tenuous connections with the worlds they originate from. First question is this: why, if priests and clerics brought in with an area still have powers related to a god outside of ravenloft, and can lose those powers if a god dies or leaves or whatever, why do those gods not object to such cutting and pasting of the worlds they watch over? Do they have an agreement with whatever dark god controls ravenloft? Or dose this dark power have power over them? Second question: I understand that this is usually entirely up to the DM, but was there ever any statement from the authors as to what the dark power is, and what its agenda in creating ravenloft was? We know from one of the published accessories that this power seems to have a partially good nature, and sometimes takes the form of a human male with a rather angelic appearance, but is it just a sham? Surely any creature that could create a pit of evil like ravenloft is pure evil. Unless it was perhaps removing these lands to save their places of origin from even greater evil? Perhaps it did not even take them itself, and some ancient pact placed them there when a great act of evil was done, such as strahds murderous rampage? IS THERE ANY CLOSURE ON THE DARK POWER? DID THEY EVER TELL US WHAT HE/IT IS? Thank you in advance if you can answer any of the above.
#2 solandras Nov 15, 2005 11:43:22	"First question is this: why, if priests and clerics brought in with an area still have powers related to a god outside of ravenloft, and can lose those powers if a god dies or leaves or whatever, why do those gods not object to such cutting and pasting of the worlds they watch over? Do they have an agreement with whatever dark god controls ravenloft? Or dose this dark power have power over them?" It is very possible that the gods do not have any agreement with the Dark Powers and that the don't have the resources to stop the DP or take the lands back. As well it is a theory that the clerics that are within Ravenloft actually gain their powers from either the Dark Powers, or just various gods that match their alignment. (side note, I've always hated the idea that clerics can get their powers by following an ideal without following a single god). "Second question: I understand that this is usually entirely up to the DM, but was there ever any statement from the authors as to what the dark power is, and what its agenda in creating ravenloft was? We know from one of the published accessories that this power seems to have a partially good nature, and sometimes takes the form of a human male with a rather angelic appearance, but is it just a sham? Surely any creature that could create a pit of evil like ravenloft is pure evil. Unless it was perhaps removing these lands to save their places of origin from even greater evil? Perhaps it did not even take them itself, and some ancient pact placed them there when a great act of evil was done, such as strahds murderous rampage? IS THERE ANY CLOSURE ON THE DARK POWER? DID THEY EVER TELL US WHAT HE/IT IS?" I hear there was once a kind of "official" answer in one of the novels to the source and agenda of the Dark Powers, but likewise I have heard it to be dismissed by almost all other sources. As such once again it becomes the juristiction of the DM to decide what, if anything, the Dark Powers really are. I have MANY theories myself, such as in the end the Dark Powers are Neutral, stiving to either keep the balance of good/evil, or wishes to end the battle by making one side win, as a form of ineviability, forcing them to confront each other until one is gone.
#3 gonzoron Nov 15, 2005 12:41:30	The official source solandras refers to is the novel Lord of the Necropolis, which has been officially declared non-canon. In it, the dark powers are prisoners themselves, and cultivating the darklords as stepping stones to act as a bridge to the prime material plane. but the Ravenloft Dungeon Master's Guide confirms what most fans have always said: The Dark Powers are a plot device, for DM's to use & define as they see fit, and no official product should or will ever define them. I'm curious where you saw this "male human with an angelic appearance." I don't recall that in any official product. It's up to the individual DM if the gods don't interfere in Ravenloft because they can't or because they won't. All we know for sure is that they don't.
#4 malus_black Nov 15, 2005 14:40:08	I'm curious where you saw this "male human with an angelic appearance." I don't recall that in any official product. Possibly some confusion regarding the Gentleman Caller? But no, the Dark Powers have never (to our knowledge) taken on any recognizeable form, shape, or aspect (unless you count the Mists).
#5 Prof._Pacali Nov 16, 2005 18:11:59	In the RLPHB, there is mention of the possibility of a Pact between the DP and the deitys of the D&D cosmology. Basicly, the DPs don't interfere in the Outer Planes, and allow the gods of lesser power or greater (essentially divine rank 6 or higher as defined in Deities and Demigods) to come and go as they please. In return the gods agree not to come and go as they please unless there is a major crisis, and allow the DPs to snatch people from the Material Plane as they will. The general consensus is that either the gods grant spells to divine casters as a result of the Pact, or the DPs themselves grant divine spells. The latter seems to be the case with "false gods" like The Wolf God, who have no counterpart in the D&D cosmology. By the way it is possible to leave Ravenloft, either through a conjunction, a portal or a scroll of return. Conjunctions were described in the Black Box, as a way into and out of Ravenloft. The most famous was the Grand Conjunction, detailed in the module Roots of Evil. Portals can be found scattered across the Core, Clusters and Islands of Terror, in places like the Island of Agony, or Castle Hunadora. In 2E scrolls of return were lesser artifacts, allowing someone to punch a hole in the cosmos to return to their home plane. Alas in 3.5 some idiot made them ordinary magic items, as can be seen in the RLDMG.
#6 zombiegleemax Nov 17, 2005 8:17:49	I always just viewed the Demiplane of Dread as part of the D&D cosmos...as the plane dealing with Dread, fear, etc. In this respect, the plane has it's powers for the same reason why the other planes behave as they do. The Dark Powers can therefore do anything they want to...so long as it fits with "Dread". The laws of the demiplane itself are there to cause maximum fear (a very basic aspect of fear is being trapped, which the demiplane does in different ways to everyone). So it has enough power over the gods to make them fear it, but not enough to actually DO anything to them...except steal their lands/worshipers and cut them off from the gods in question. As for leaving, all the ways mentioned by Prof are accurate, also some modules allow escape if you take out a Darklord (DM option, basically if you only wanted to run a Weekend in Hell vs an actual campaign). Whether this is a reard or just the plane purging those that threaten to ruin it is for you to decide.
#7 zombiegleemax Dec 09, 2005 20:40:26	Lord of the necropolis sort of explains what the Dark Powes are. Book is confusing as hell but pretty good because Azalin is responsable for everything Strahd is. There are ways out of Ravenloft in the books. One is having a major artifact that can cast planeshift. Then I think there's something in the Ravenloft DMG about Loremasters being able to find a way out.
#8 zombiegleemax Dec 10, 2005 10:03:29	Do keep in mind that the Ravenloft game writers (to the best of my knowledge) don't consider Lord of the Necropolis in any way canonical, and on the whole prefer to remain coy about just what the Dark Powers might be up to...
#9 zombiegleemax Dec 13, 2005 7:54:06	I understand that this is usually entirely up to the DM, but was there ever any statement from the authors as to what the dark power is, and what its agenda in creating ravenloft was? I don't know this, but from a Meta-game-point-of-view, in a twisted way the Dark powers take on the rule of the allmighty unforgiving inscrutable God in gothic horror. Gothic Horror simply doesn't work well without the wrath of the One God, the victorians had to to fear in that stories. Ravenloft in it's former "Weekend in Hell"-form, simply couldn't work that way, because the Weekenders usally have more than just one god to have faith in (offending one good will easily be lifted by pleasing some other god ...). Thus instead of one god and the fear to wake his wrath, you have the Dark Powers and have to fear to please them...
#10 zombiegleemax Dec 13, 2005 23:16:35	It could be viewed as some sortof parrelel universe where cosmic entities even stronger then the ones of normal D&D cosmology exsist. (Though not as abundant.) Thus, these lesser dieties (Atleast by The Dark Powers standards..) made a pact with The Dark Powers. They do not interfeare with Ravenloft, and Ravenloft does not inerfeare with the rest of Greyhawk. (Or whatever you want to call the Dungeons&Dragons universe.) As for clerics, it could be assumed thier divine powers is a sortof "loophole", all pacts have them, ironic that it be the Holy, honourable, (atleast ussualy) ones that manage to "cheat the system" the most. Or, perhaps, the clerics just get thier powers from DPs.. Just because good is weaker in Ravenloft, does not mean it doesn't exsist. It's just not humanly possible. Ravenloft is just a better example of what a real fantasy world would look like.. wether for better or for worst.. (More then likely the latter..) Just immagine The Dark Powers being discovered as The Old Ones/The Chthulu, and all your players and all your DMs will nod thier head and agree that what The Koga said made the most logical sense. Less our Greyhawk gods wanted to risk everything in an attempt to create a patheon war. A war they had very little chance of winning. Negotiations happen when someone realizes they are going to lose..
#11 rotipher Dec 14, 2005 11:54:30	Just because the gods opt not to intervene as closely in Ravenloft as in other worlds doesn't HAVE to mean the DPs are stronger than the deities. Deities don't take a direct, hands-on approach to Material Plane affairs in general, either, even though (at least in most settings) there's no "overpowering force" to stop them from doing so: they just seem to reach an agreement amongst themselves, not to step in personally to interfere with the doings of the Material Plane's mortals. Yes, the DPs COULD be phenomenally mega-powered beings that are literally forcing the gods to stay out of their sandbox (Ravenloft)... but the deities might have other reasons to leave the Land of Mists alone, rather than just being pushed out by brute strength.
#12 breakdancin_bladesinger Dec 14, 2005 17:55:44	I'm curious where you saw this "male human with an angelic appearance." I don't recall that in any official product I beleive that was from a old dragon article about RL.It had to dealw/speelbooks in the lands of dread.It was a spirit that appeared to a crazy priest(of Ezra i think)
#13 thanael Dec 18, 2005 14:17:33	Double post.
#14 thanael Dec 18, 2005 14:19:11	Do any of these ring a bell? I believe it might be on of the following two: Dragon#234 (October 1996) - the Book of Souls Author: Robert S Mullin Content: A dread book, for wizards Comment: Yep, the title of a Dread netbook, that inspired our former colleagues to venture into Ravenloft-themed netbooks… Interesting cursed book, its powers, and way to destroy it. or: Dragon#252 (October 1998) - Arcane Lore: Tome of Forbidden Lore Author: Mathew L Martin Content: Dark spells books, one of them by Azalin himself! Content: Three dark spell books, one of them by Azalin himself (Book of Requiem)! Other two books are Tome of the Shackled Mind and The Revelation of the Prince of Twilight. New spells: Book of Requiem - Blood's Call (control someone with his blood), Life Bond (channel life energy to a willing target), Death's Tithe (collect life energy from worshippers); Tome of the Shackled Mind - Corrupt Charm, Dark Desires (opens up the dark lusts of the victim's heart), The Revelation of the Prince of Twilight -Conjure rendered soul, Spirit's reunification. Comment: Weird new spells. The quest for one of these books (or to forbid an evil group of finding / using it) could generate adventure hooks. But I also think the reference might be to the Gentleman Caller. I'll have to look it up...