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Vistani on the Planes and Possible Origins

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
vedicdragon
Nov 15, 2005 14:50:02 Is it possible, just possible, mind you that Vistani were followers of a God of Travel/portals? (Phaerlaghn and Aoskar, anyone?)

Assembled perhaps from some bedine tribes of various different settings (al-Quadim, Rashemen, Baklunish of Oerth) for some great quest, and then retooled for some inscrutable purpose?

What if they got out? Where would they congregate on the planes? Where would they go?

There -are- canon ways out of the domains, barring the Rift Spanner and other horrifically evil acts.
And I would think, if anyone, the Vistani could escape. Who would be their God?

IMC, I had a pc that became a Vistani demigod of revelry and folk hero (much like the Kender "Uncle Trapspringer"-not that he's a demigod), and broke out through to the Planes through an act of Martyrdom.
Your thoughts?
#2
solandras
Nov 15, 2005 20:57:44 Actually one of my possible theories is that the Dark Powers themselves are the god of the vistani, which is why they gain so many benefits that others lack. Such as the mist navigation, the eye abilities, and a few more. In fact they may not even know as such as every month they have to run off into the wild and do "something" that nobody knows about, possibly even them. As such they could be worshiping their maker, or making sacrifices, or who knows what. Just thought I'd put that one out.
#3
Mortepierre
Nov 16, 2005 2:48:29 Vistani are already "out in the planes". They exist on Gothic Earth (from MotRD), in space (check out the SJ MC), quite possibly on Oerth (the Rhennee are likely candidates for that dubious honor), etc..

Of course, only Vistani who exist on planes held in the grip of the DP still have the full range of "mist powers".

As for a deity, I settled long ago on Stillsong (from the 2e DMGR4). He is perfect. After all, the majority of the gods don't even have a clue as to what or who he is. I'll grant you though that Aoskar is another good match.
#4
Prof._Pacali
Nov 16, 2005 18:00:57 According to VRGttV the Vistani aren't that religious, in the sense of worshipping a deity. In 3.5 clerics can revere a philosophy, rather than a god, and just choose domains, which is what Vistani clerics generally do.

As for the Vistani leaving, while I think individual Vistani might try, they run the risk of becoming Mortu (see VRGttV). The Vistani as a whole have a reason for their wandering, even if they don't share it with Giorgios.

If the Vistani were to leave Ravenloft, I think they would continue their wanderings, until they no longer have to. According to one theory in VRGttV, a deity cursed them for their actions, even though the actions were not evil. They must wander, or suffer static burn and become Mortu. Most likely they would stay on the Material Plane, or wander the Upper Planes and the Outlands.
#5
ripvanwormer
Nov 16, 2005 20:56:14
in space (check out the SJ MC),

That would be the Aperusa.

The Bene Idanim are another possible candidate for Vistani-relative.
#6
rotipher
Nov 17, 2005 18:42:58 FWIW, I think it's likely that 99.999999% of the "gypsy" cultures in the various planes of the multiverse have no connections to the Vistani whatsoever. While the Vistani ARE in Gothic Earth -- no great surprise, since that realm's numerous ties to Ravenloft are self-evident -- most of the Rhomany-style cultures in the various game products are just cases of parallel evolution, much like how virtually every game world has its Pseudo-Ancient-Egypt culture, its Sort-Of-Celtic-British culture, its Looks-Kinda-Norse culture, etc. OOC, they're inspired by the same body of IRL history and folklore; in-character, they're presumably the result of the parallelism which commonly exists between different Material Plane worlds.

And the Rhennee don't look much like Vistani, BTW. They're too short for one thing, IIRC.
#7
zombiegleemax
Nov 27, 2005 4:49:02 Well in the module the Evil Eye its revealed that the Zarovan Vistani can travel between the planes, more or less at will...the only people who can leave Ravenloft when they feel like it. That opens up wonderful speculation on *why* they stay in RL. It may be the Canjar, (sp?) the other tribe in the Manusa tasque can do so as well.

Now is it possible that they were originally the followers of some diety of travel? Of course. If thats the direction you want to take your campaign go for it.

As has been noted the Vistani are rarely religious and traditionally have no gods. The 2E VanRichten's Guide to the Vistani somewhat suggests something otherwise from your proposal. Most of the Vistani in the legends presented there speak of either following a great king or learning secrets man was not meant to know to thwart the evil asperations of an individual who sought power over space and time to challenge the gods.

-Eric Gorman
#8
ripvanwormer
Nov 28, 2005 20:49:21
Well in the module the Evil Eye its revealed that the Zarovan Vistani can travel between the planes, more or less at will...

But don't the Vistani get their special abilities from Ravenloft (or the Dark Powers)?

Do you think the Dark Powers actually desire that the Zarovan spread their influence across the worlds?
#9
rotipher
Nov 29, 2005 6:23:12
Do you think the Dark Powers actually desire that the Zarovan spread their influence across the worlds?

According to VRGttVistani, the Zarovan don't seem to breed much if at all; young children are never seen amongst their number, and even half-Vistani are virtually never of Zarovan blood. While I suppose it's possible that the DPs may allow their *prophecies* to influence events outside of Ravenloft, it seems to me that if they'd wanted the Zarovan to become a really decisive factor in the multiverse-at-large, then their tribe would be steadily increasing its numbers, rather than being limited to Madame Eva's own extended family.

My guess is that the Dark Powers allow the Zarovan to [temporarily] leave the demiplane (and its Gothic Earth spin-off, which I sometimes suspect is merely an extraordinarily large domain), so that they can retrieve individuals from other planes whose arrival is critical to fulfilling major Zarovan prophecies. As powerful as they are, I don't picture the DPs as being omniscient so far as foreseeing *all* possible future outcomes, where Vistani predictions are concerned -- temporal paradoxes and alternate histories are tricky things; besides, if the DPs were THAT powerful, wouldn't they have long since *finished* whatever job they built Ravenloft to try to accomplish...? -- so they may allow the Zarovan (and only the Zarovan) limited freedom, to ensure their prophecies come to pass. The Sight of the Vistani can't be manipulated by magic or skimmed off by mind-reading, so the DPs have to let the Zarovan take care of such arrangements: to directly invade a seer's mind, so they'd know what to do themselves, would contaminate and disrupt her visions.

Just my own pet theory. YMMV, as ever.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 vedicdragon Nov 15, 2005 14:50:02	Is it possible, just possible, mind you that Vistani were followers of a God of Travel/portals? (Phaerlaghn and Aoskar, anyone?) Assembled perhaps from some bedine tribes of various different settings (al-Quadim, Rashemen, Baklunish of Oerth) for some great quest, and then retooled for some inscrutable purpose? What if they got out? Where would they congregate on the planes? Where would they go? There -are- canon ways out of the domains, barring the Rift Spanner and other horrifically evil acts. And I would think, if anyone, the Vistani could escape. Who would be their God? IMC, I had a pc that became a Vistani demigod of revelry and folk hero (much like the Kender "Uncle Trapspringer"-not that he's a demigod), and broke out through to the Planes through an act of Martyrdom. Your thoughts?
#2 solandras Nov 15, 2005 20:57:44	Actually one of my possible theories is that the Dark Powers themselves are the god of the vistani, which is why they gain so many benefits that others lack. Such as the mist navigation, the eye abilities, and a few more. In fact they may not even know as such as every month they have to run off into the wild and do "something" that nobody knows about, possibly even them. As such they could be worshiping their maker, or making sacrifices, or who knows what. Just thought I'd put that one out.
#3 Mortepierre Nov 16, 2005 2:48:29	Vistani are already "out in the planes". They exist on Gothic Earth (from MotRD), in space (check out the SJ MC), quite possibly on Oerth (the Rhennee are likely candidates for that dubious honor), etc.. Of course, only Vistani who exist on planes held in the grip of the DP still have the full range of "mist powers". As for a deity, I settled long ago on Stillsong (from the 2e DMGR4). He is perfect. After all, the majority of the gods don't even have a clue as to what or who he is. I'll grant you though that Aoskar is another good match.
#4 Prof._Pacali Nov 16, 2005 18:00:57	According to VRGttV the Vistani aren't that religious, in the sense of worshipping a deity. In 3.5 clerics can revere a philosophy, rather than a god, and just choose domains, which is what Vistani clerics generally do. As for the Vistani leaving, while I think individual Vistani might try, they run the risk of becoming Mortu (see VRGttV). The Vistani as a whole have a reason for their wandering, even if they don't share it with Giorgios. If the Vistani were to leave Ravenloft, I think they would continue their wanderings, until they no longer have to. According to one theory in VRGttV, a deity cursed them for their actions, even though the actions were not evil. They must wander, or suffer static burn and become Mortu. Most likely they would stay on the Material Plane, or wander the Upper Planes and the Outlands.
#5 ripvanwormer Nov 16, 2005 20:56:14	in space (check out the SJ MC), That would be the Aperusa. The Bene Idanim are another possible candidate for Vistani-relative.
#6 rotipher Nov 17, 2005 18:42:58	FWIW, I think it's likely that 99.999999% of the "gypsy" cultures in the various planes of the multiverse have no connections to the Vistani whatsoever. While the Vistani ARE in Gothic Earth -- no great surprise, since that realm's numerous ties to Ravenloft are self-evident -- most of the Rhomany-style cultures in the various game products are just cases of parallel evolution, much like how virtually every game world has its Pseudo-Ancient-Egypt culture, its Sort-Of-Celtic-British culture, its Looks-Kinda-Norse culture, etc. OOC, they're inspired by the same body of IRL history and folklore; in-character, they're presumably the result of the parallelism which commonly exists between different Material Plane worlds. And the Rhennee don't look much like Vistani, BTW. They're too short for one thing, IIRC.
#7 zombiegleemax Nov 27, 2005 4:49:02	Well in the module the Evil Eye its revealed that the Zarovan Vistani can travel between the planes, more or less at will...the only people who can leave Ravenloft when they feel like it. That opens up wonderful speculation on why they stay in RL. It may be the Canjar, (sp?) the other tribe in the Manusa tasque can do so as well. Now is it possible that they were originally the followers of some diety of travel? Of course. If thats the direction you want to take your campaign go for it. As has been noted the Vistani are rarely religious and traditionally have no gods. The 2E VanRichten's Guide to the Vistani somewhat suggests something otherwise from your proposal. Most of the Vistani in the legends presented there speak of either following a great king or learning secrets man was not meant to know to thwart the evil asperations of an individual who sought power over space and time to challenge the gods. -Eric Gorman
#8 ripvanwormer Nov 28, 2005 20:49:21	Well in the module the Evil Eye its revealed that the Zarovan Vistani can travel between the planes, more or less at will... But don't the Vistani get their special abilities from Ravenloft (or the Dark Powers)? Do you think the Dark Powers actually desire that the Zarovan spread their influence across the worlds?
#9 rotipher Nov 29, 2005 6:23:12	Do you think the Dark Powers actually desire that the Zarovan spread their influence across the worlds? According to VRGttVistani, the Zarovan don't seem to breed much if at all; young children are never seen amongst their number, and even half-Vistani are virtually never of Zarovan blood. While I suppose it's possible that the DPs may allow their prophecies to influence events outside of Ravenloft, it seems to me that if they'd wanted the Zarovan to become a really decisive factor in the multiverse-at-large, then their tribe would be steadily increasing its numbers, rather than being limited to Madame Eva's own extended family. My guess is that the Dark Powers allow the Zarovan to [temporarily] leave the demiplane (and its Gothic Earth spin-off, which I sometimes suspect is merely an extraordinarily large domain), so that they can retrieve individuals from other planes whose arrival is critical to fulfilling major Zarovan prophecies. As powerful as they are, I don't picture the DPs as being omniscient so far as foreseeing all possible future outcomes, where Vistani predictions are concerned -- temporal paradoxes and alternate histories are tricky things; besides, if the DPs were THAT powerful, wouldn't they have long since finished whatever job they built Ravenloft to try to accomplish...? -- so they may allow the Zarovan (and only the Zarovan) limited freedom, to ensure their prophecies come to pass. The Sight of the Vistani can't be manipulated by magic or skimmed off by mind-reading, so the DPs have to let the Zarovan take care of such arrangements: to directly invade a seer's mind, so they'd know what to do themselves, would contaminate and disrupt her visions. Just my own pet theory. YMMV, as ever.