Anyway, something really interesting that I noticed in their future plans:
Blackmoor Reborn
Adventures in Blackmoor(tm) Boxed Set: This campaign set allows the return of the Blackmoor civilisation in the Known World. A bit of history: Blackmoor destroyed itself 1,000 years ago and was "cloned" inside the Hollow World sanctuary by the Immortals. The Blackmoorians' technological antics finally upset the Immortals who literally kick them out of the Hollow World. Blackmoor re-establishes itself on the Known World, after being copiously trashed by their Immortal (ex)- patrons. Blackmoor distinguishes itself from the traditional fantasy genre because of modern technology equipment that keeps showing up in their setting. These are rare, poorly understood items that become very dangerous in the wrong hands. In a nutshell, Blackmoor qualifies as "dark-age medieval fantasy with technology"!
BMa1 - Blackmoor #1 of 2, The Egg of Coot: This adventure takes traditional player characters from the usual Known World to the chaotic Land of Blackmoor. They discover the secret and dark wonders of Blackmoor and realise the risks they pose to their way of life. They must shut down one of the known sources of technology-the strange and mysterious Egg of Coot. But it is indeed a deadly place.
BMa2 - Blackmoor #2 of 2, The Doomsday Rod: An adventure for native Blackmoor characters. These adventurers hear of a secret weapons cache forgotten by the powerful entities of their land. Contrary to the wisdom of characters in the traditional Known World setting, these fellows want these lethal contraptions to fulfil their dreams of power! The player characters are allowed to get their hands on the deadly weapons, but in so doing trigger a doomsday machine. The characters must use (and hopefully deplete) their newly acquired equipment to destroy the frightening machine. A typical shoot'em up escapade for gun powder-crazed players!
It looks like this was supposed to take place in Mystara's ancient past - a mere 1000 years after the Rain of Fire.
Hmm. Good eye, I hadn't caught that. I'm wondering if that isn't supposed to be a typo, though. It doesn't really make sense that this would herald the return of Blackmoor to the Known World if it is supposed to still be set in the past. Nor would it really help to explain why (if Blackmoor "returned" c. 2000 BC) there isn't some more legacy of the Blackmoor culture in the present day.
Man- I'm so glad that Reference Guide finally turned up- You have no idea how long I've been looking for it! I knew it existed and wasn't just in my imagination!
Anyway, something really interesting that I noticed in their future plans:
...
:OMG!
Where did you get that info from? - Amazing, it is...
Where did you get that info from? - Amazing, it is...
In the "Synn's Secret" thread, Agathokles posted a link to a reference guide that Bruce Heard had posted on the MML a long time ago, that was his product line proposal for the Mystara line (he was Line Editor/Manager or whatever the title was). It laid out the status of the Mystara line, and their plans for future products (though as you can see while reading it, those plans changed somewhat).
I'd been looking for that list for ages now, and no one could seem to point me in quite the right direction, but now I've found it! :evillaugh
Thank you! That's an amazing information! - Too bad we never saw it done... OTOH, destroying the Egg would have been as un-Arnesonian as the Greyhawk Wars were un-Gygaxian... ;)So they were planning on bringing Blackmoor back to the Known World setting (or at least the Outer World). I imagine this idea was scrapped for similar reasons to the planned DA5: City of Blackmoor module.
Indeed they were! The idea was cancelled because Mystara was cancelled. The ref guide lists this as an item that would have been published in the, then future of the setting IIRC.
In any case, this presents some intriguing ideas- we know the Blackmoor civilization survives in the Hollow World in the form of the Blacklore Elves, but the info here seems to indicate that there is at least one other remnant of Blackmoor civilization inside the Hollow World. The Blacklore elves' technology can't function outside the Valley, so it couldn't be their tech that causes trouble in the HW (unless they somehow finally managed to make it work), and the info doesn't indicate that it is only elves that return to the surface. So how would this scenario come about? Some ideas:
I see this as confirmation that Blackmoor itself was preserved in the Hollow World. The HW boxed set mentions that Khoronus travelled back in time and preserved Blackmoor on a separate Plane, but placing it within the Hollow World makes alot more sense IMHO. It also means we can find new use for the DA modules, the FFC and the new ZGG products within Mystara.
1) The Egg of Coot managed to finagle his/her/its way into the group of Blacklore Elves that were saved by the Immortals, evading their detection, and it is it that is responsible for finally making the breakthrough that allows Blacklore technology to function outside of the valley, prompting the Immortals to kick them out of the Hollow World. Perhaps the Egg of Coot is in collaboration with the Burrowers.
Again, I still think they were talking about the actual Blackmoor here. OTOH, having the Egg or one of its cousins work as manipulators with Blacklore society is interesting!
2) There is a second Blackmoor civilization within the Hollow World, far removed from the known civilizations there (and not previously described). Explorers from this culture eventually contacted the Blacklore civilization, and working together, the two groups managed to make their tech function normally again.This is the one I prefer. I even have a map setting up Blackmoor on the western (that is right side of the map) continent of the Hollow World. This would be the Blackmoor of the DA-series era, not its futuristic version, though the seeds of technology already exist here, notably with the Egg. I imagine the Afridhi, Thonians and other Blackmoor neighbours were also brought along for the ride, probably even the Wilderlands Campaign peoples if they are used. Afterall, we are talking about an entire continent here within the Hollow World that remains undeveloped.
I will try and get the map posted tomorrow.As to their Outer World antics, where would the Blackmoorians pop up? Would the Immortals return them to Skothar, and their Outer World origins? (Where they might possibly wake a hibernating Egg of Coot?)
Or might they return in the place of an Outer World civilization that recently disappeared- say, the Alphatian Sea?
This has been bugging me too. Ideally, it should be somewhere that would allow us to use Dave Arneson's maps instead of having to create new ones. If we reverse East and West on the map ofcourse, it could appear on the western coast of Skothar.
My main objection to having it reppear in the Alphatian Sea is that I want Alphatia returned at a later stage...
Håvard
I prefer to give up the idea of a "cloning" of Blackmoor in the HW by the Immortals, because in the HW boxed set we know that Blackmoor obliteration "catches the Immortals off-guard" and that they don't have enough time to save any consistent part of this civilization before its copmplete destruction.
Anyway, we know also that:
- Blackmoor pushed the beastmen far in the north of Brun, near the North Pole;
- The elven colony of Wendar/Glantri is very, very near to the old North Polar Opening (which was smaller than the present one and located in the Ethengar Khanates). This land was on the fringe o Blackmoor civilization, even if not yet colonized by Blackmoor, and the elves asked for permission of colonizing it. We know, also, that these elves were a particularly "high tecnology" group.
- The flying device of Serraine, a combined antigravity/jet propulsion flight system, is found by gnomes somewhere in the Altan Tepes south of Rockhome, which means that the Blackmoorians came nearer than the elves to the old North Polar Opening.
This is what the official modules say. They all hint about a strong presence of Blackmoor in the old Arctic regions.
SO, why can't we say that the Blackmoorians passed through the old North Polar Oening and that they explored the Hollow World in 3200-3000BC, founding a colony?
The Alphatians succeeded in doing this using magical devices, which are opposed in many ways by the anti-magical barriers posed by Immortals on the route to the HW. The Blackmoorians, using technological devices, shouldn't be affected by these limitations, so the exploration and colonization of the HW should have been a lot easier.
Moreover, a colony in the HW obviously is not affected by the Great Rain of Fire. Also, any "nuclear" device (in case) located in the colony shall not detonate, because the Mystara's magic field perturbation (which probably caused the explosion of this kind of devices) is softened by the anti magic aura of the Hollow World.
So we can have a Blackmoor colony in the HW, with Blackmoor technology still working (and people who know how to use it) and, maybe, also some of its very dangerous exploding devices. Cool, isn't it?
In a thousand years or so, this colony grows powerful, and begins to heavily influence the other HW cultures, in violation of the Spell of preservation. So the Immortals decide to eradicate it. Its members, their memory changed and deprived of all their technology, could have been transported somewhere in the external world in 2000BC.
For the destination place, I suggest the Skhotar continent (where I located Blackmoor :P ). Maybe, the Nentsun are the descendants of this colony, transplanted near their ancestral land...
I still like the idea of the old medieval style Blackmoor being preserved in the Hollow World though. Here is a map I made of the Hollow World marking the location of the canon civilizations of that world as well as Blackmoor and its neighbours, the Wilderlands, the Empire of Bahlor and the Selhomarr Empire.
Let me know what you think!
Håvard
I like also a lot the locations you decided for these cultures.
Surely, the fast technological rise of Blackmoorian civilization is enough to persuade the Immortals to preserve a more "classical" Blackmoor culture in the HW (throughout history, the Immortals transported and preserved also many less-menaced Outer World cultures: think about Sajarpur or the Merry Pirates) .
The Afridhi and Peshwah, in particular, are the most endangered cultures (the Afridhi undergo a mass migration to Thonia, not a truly invasion, so they are a very vulnerable society), so they should surely have been transported to the HW.
Thonian Empire is declining in 4000BC, so maybe this culture is already in the HW up to this date (think about Milenians).
As for Blackmoor, apart from Khoronus intervention, other Immortals could have decided to preserve its civilization as a part of Thonian Empire, or maybe, as an indipendent society just after the Great Rebellion of the Northern Provinces. Anyway, the preserved culture should be anterior to Beagle crash/discovery, and so, anterior also to DA1 events.
Apart from this, surely these cultures don't represent a threat to the other HW cultures. So, if we accept the plan proposed by Heard & Co., we should think that in the 3000-2000BC HW is present ALSO a technological Blackmoor culture.
If this culture is a colony of Outer World Blackmoor (such as the Heldannics and Alphatians outposts of modern time), its ancient position coud be located somewhere between Azcans and Neathars.
In fact, remember the axis rotation: the old north polar opening (Ethengar) is about halfway between Atruaghin palace (which lead to Azcan lands) and the Alphatian shaft in the Alatians (which lead to Alphatian Neatharum in Neathar lands).
So, if Blackmoor colonists passed the North Polar Opening, they should have found uninteresting Neathar tribes all around them (Azcans, Oltecs, Beatmen and many and other civilizations locations in the HW are post cataclysmic). Maybe the colonists stood in proximity of old North Polar Opening, mantaining contact with the elves of Wendar/Glantri and other Blackmoorians outposts in the Arctic regions. The Heldannic Knights do the same in modern times, referring to the modern South Polar Opening.
When, after the GRoF, the Immortals began to transplant Azcans and Oltecs, this region became far more interesting (given also the fact that Blackmoorians and Oltecs never met in the Outer World - see HW boxed set), and so the (stranded) Blackmoorian colonists could have started to influence these cultures. Incurring in Immortals wrath by 2000BC.
Of couse, this is simply my personal wiew of the whole thing ;)
OTOH, destroying the Egg would have been as un-Arnesonian as the Greyhawk Wars were un-Gygaxian... ;)
Careful with that kind of reasoning, Raf. If you take a look at the articles by E.G.G. & R.J Kuntz (Dragon #56, 57, 63, and 65), you'll see the Wars C.S. created were bound to happen sooner or later (although I'll grant you they probably would have ended differently if E.G.G. had been at the helm).
Going against the EGG might not neccesarily mean that it would be destroyed. The EGG afterall has proved to be extremely resiliant. However, for the players to get some sensation of success at the end of the adventure, they might be able to drive the EGG away, into hiding or exile, so it wont bother people again for a century or so...
Håvard
Careful with that kind of reasoning, Raf. If you take a look at the articles by E.G.G. & R.J Kuntz (Dragon #56, 57, 63, and 65), you'll see the Wars C.S. created were bound to happen sooner or later (although I'll grant you they probably would have ended differently if E.G.G. had been at the helm).
Yeah, you're right, I see. - Still, it may be a similar situation - without owning the early Greyhawk sources, what I learned from the material I saw hints strongly that such conflicts like the Greyhawk Wars and in BM, the final war against the Egg were things that were esteemed to happen sooner or later. In the case of Greyhawk, the original author didn't come to carry it out himself, and with Blackmoor, things would have been quite the same, if that list is to be taken by the letter. That doesn't mean the results were (or would have been, in BM' case) bad, but maybe different from what the original designers had had in mind. (Actually, post-war Greyhawk was the period of the setting I enjoyed most.)
While Gygax never came to ellaborate us his vision, Arneson now has the chance. - I am pretty interested how this will go on, as for now, it doesn't really seem that the Egg will play a major role in current campaign development...
Going against the EGG might not neccesarily mean that it would be destroyed. The EGG afterall has proved to be extremely resiliant. However, for the players to get some sensation of success at the end of the adventure, they might be able to drive the EGG away, into hiding or exile, so it wont bother people again for a century or so...
Håvard
Congrats to another great map, Havard!
Are those *my* JG Wilderlands, or some regions that originate in the Mystara setting, btw?
The Egg is for me personally, quite a problem for the setting right now. Without it, BM looses a lot of charm, yet, one has to come near it sooner or later, because it's almost ever-present..
And really, now every story that reveals the truth about the egg would sound banal after dozens of years of theory... Personally, I hope that the new ZG line at least hints what one can do about it... I'd like my party to pay a visit to Ohmfet some day, so a bit of offical backing could come in quite handy... ;)
This says to me that the Spell of Preservation prevented the Dark Age Blackmoor (which might have been put in the Hollow World as soon as it became "modernized" on the surface, rather than waiting until the Rain of Fire) from being entirely changed by technological advancement, but it didn't prevent this civilization from continuing to make advancements. For example, some Blackmoorians might invent machines that allow cities to fly, but thanks to the Spell of Preservation not all Blackmoorians would agree to live in them.
Once new advancements changed a substantial number of Blackmoorians' lives, the Spell of Preservation would also prevent the immortals from changing things back. Because Blackmoor was a place on the cusp of advancement, there was no way to preserve Dark Age Blackmoor without also preserving the potential for them to invent things that would change the way of life of not just many Blackmoorians, but potentially civilizations across the Hollow World. This couldn't be allowed.
Therefore, the Spell of Preservation was suspended long enough to remove Blackmoor civilization from the Hollow World entirely and put it somewhere else. Once it was on the surface, outside the grasp of the Spell of Preservation, the immortals could freely destroy the advanced technological elements of Blackmoor society, leaving the Dark Age Blackmoorians living among the ruins left by a more advanced society that they had, thanks to the Spell of Preservation, learned to shun.