What future role(s) do people feel it will next play and how it will effect Athas.
in my current campaign, the rise of Dregoth and his use of the Pristine Tower for his Godhood spell shift the sun even further towards the negative. as the divine conduit opens to him and fills him with godlike power, his proximity to the negative plane plus his undead status make him the first God of Death on Athas...the sun becomes a dark Blue-Purple...an eternal midnight befalls the world...the temperature drops...
of course, this event doesn't go unnoticed throughout the planes (forgive me but i like planescape as well) and many other dieties begin to vie for power and influence on this new planet...not only that, but the divine energies flowing from the astral bleed off to the rest of Athas...the gray and the black begin to dissolve...and an age-old sorcerer begins to awaken once again as the spill off of god energy seeps into his decaying prison...
my theory is that Athas' sun, much like the plane or sphere in which Athas resides, is deeply connected to the inner planes, PRIMARILY the POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE planes.
Interesting theory. It would sort of be a unique twist in that the sun would actually benefit undead rather than harm them as the sun shifts more in line with the Negative Plane.
and you thought the barren deserts were unforgiving...
I would think it a sound theory in that Rajaat had plans on changing the sun from red back to blue after the close of the Cleansing Wars. It would be interesting story/campaign arc if some being came across some of the Warbringers research and made it their life's quest to change the sun back to yellow using that info.
Din't Rajaat try to use time to "reprint" the blue age over the present age?
Din't Rajaat try to use time to "reprint" the blue age over the present age?
Time? How so? I've long thought that Rajaat would have studied the flow of time and how to traverse it.
Time? How so? I've long thought that Rajaat would have studied the flow of time and how to traverse it.
perhaps thats the explosion that nearly killed him. a small, eh, error made trying to alter time?
perhaps thats the explosion that nearly killed him. a small, eh, error made trying to alter time?
Perhaps. Cannon credits that explosion with him discovering magic though.
Athas' sun has played important, but varried, roles thru out the worlds history. Destroying the Brown Tide, heralding the Green Age, turning Rajaat's chosen into his Champions, and granting Sadira the power of a sun wizard are but a few examples of how pivotal it is to the major events that have transpired on Athas.
What future role(s) do people feel it will next play and how it will effect Athas.
I tend to think that the Sun has been artifically forced through a distorted solar lifecycle. Most of it's energy has been drained through use of the Pristine Tower, and now Sadira is taking (relatively miniscule amounts of) energy from the Sun as well. I think the next change for it will be to collapse in and become a Brown Dwarf type of star, making Athas slide into an extreme cold period, and become Arctic World. I don't think there will be any nova effect -- because once again, the cycle that the Sun's gone through is artificially induced and due to energy being stolen from it with the Pristine Tower.
There have been many other threads (Raven's posts about the subject are cool enough) about a frozen wasteland-version of Athas, and that seems, at least to me, to make some sense.
I tend to think that the Sun has been artifically forced through a distorted solar lifecycle. Most of it's energy has been drained through use of the Pristine Tower
Perhaps the Pristine Tower could be used to replenish that stolen energy. As I stated before, I don't think that its to far fetched to believe that restoring the sun to its original blue hue was part of Rajaat's secret agenda.
Perhaps the Pristine Tower could be used to replenish that stolen energy. As I stated before, I don't think that its to far fetched to believe that restoring the sun to its original blue hue was part of Rajaat's secret agenda.
I don't know if that functionality was ever intended for the Pristine Tower. Can a car engine suddenly start replenishing it's gas tank? I'm seeing that the Pristine Tower uses the sun as a fuel source -- and doesn't have the capability to restore it. Further, I tend to think that the Pristine Tower is now more or less malfunctioning (resulting in the mutative qualities around it), due to changes Rajaat had made for his own purposes. I don't honestly think that Rajaat is really thinking clearly on anything. He's more or less placed his own self-loathing and disgust on all the Rebirth races, and has what I think is a faulty ideal as to how to achieve his "restoration of the Blue Age" process. I think that Rajaat's goals, if ever fully realized will just leave Athas as a dead, desolate husk. Sure, he's very intelligent, but he's also extremely misguided and more than a little megalomaniacal.
I don't know if that functionality was ever intended for the Pristine Tower. Can a car engine suddenly start replenishing it's gas tank?
No, but with enough insight and knowledge it could be altered to siphon or draw fuel into itself. Same could be said with the Pristine Tower. Rajaat "the Father of Magic" surely could have performed such a task when the time was right. I would think he would have had more of a thought out plan that just "I will flood the world with my great watery body".
No, but with enough insight and knowledge it could be altered to siphon or draw fuel into itself. Same could be said with the Pristine Tower. Rajaat "the Father of Magic" surely could have performed such a task when the time was right. I would think he would have had more of a thought out plan that just "I will flood the world with my great watery body".
I never even implied such a silly idea for Rajaat as "I will flood the world with my great watery body". Rather, Rajaat's a bit misguided on everything, and his megalomania and self-loathing has clouded his judgement a bit. He started as a horribly disfigured Pyreen, hated himself, and then took that hatred and extended it to include all the Rebirth races. He wants Athas to return to the Blue Age -- but hasn't ever actually seen the Blue Age, and may not even fully understand why the Rhulisti did what they did to cause the Rebirth in the first place. He hasn't seemed to care whether or not it's even a good idea to return to the Blue Age -- He just seems to want to return to that age, because then monstrocities like himself would never be around (in his idealistic view of the Blue Age being almost like a paradise). Sure, that's some speculation on my point about Rajaat, but it fits the data we have on him (which is arguably sketchy at best).
Rajaat's quest to fix himself leads to hunting for the "ancestors" (Rhulisti), which I'm guessing is how he found out about the Blue Age in the first place. He may have found some Lifeshaped devices, and had spent years attempting to harness that ability (but apparently not succeeding -- I get the distinct impression that Lifeshaping isn't easy, and possibly something that was taken away from all the Rhulisti who underwent the Rebirth, so as to possibly protect the world from another catastrophe like the Brown Tide). In the process, his already troubled mind slowly perverts his attempts and creates something quite dangerous and radically different -- Arcane Magic. He sees Arcane Magic as the vehicle to lead the world back to the Blue Age, and furthers his plan.
At some point, he had found the Pristine Tower, and he restructures it a bit to suit his purposes -- maybe in an effort to make it reverse it's effects, force all the Rebirth races to revert to Rhulisti, and maybe even to restore the sun. However it didn't work, and my guess is he broke it (causing the "mutation-aura" around the tower) He does a couple small modifications to use the tower as a tool for his new plan.
Rajaat teaches Arcane magic to the world -- with Preserving magic. My guess is there could have been Arcane Academies and such all over the world during this time that sprung up. From these schools, he hand-selected some of the most promising students to teach them Defiling. From the most promising of his Defilers, he made his Champions -- by bringing them to the Pristine Tower, and sends them on his little goal. If he can't use the Pristine Tower to transform the Rebirth races back to Rhulisti, he'll wipe out all the Rebirth races, and leave only the Halflings.
Meanwhile, he apparently tried to tap deeper into the Inner Planes, attempted to get to the Outer Planes, and a great many other things -- the length and breadth of his research to me seems like someone attempting to find a decent solution to his problem -- how to bring back the Blue Age. What caught him off-guard was that his Champions rebelled against him, and entrapped him.
While he's been "cooling his heels" in the Hollow, he apparently has still been able to exert some influence -- in the Black, through his swords and the two Champions still loyal to him. Due to the Cerulean Storm, I think he's found a possible solution to his problem -- by making an apparent pact with the Paraelemental plane of Rain. My guess is, he's been making alliances with all of the paraelements -- he could help offer them more power, if they help him out as well (in a quid-pro-quo sort of manner). He escapes from the Hollow, slays many of the rebellious "children" of his, and gets caught off-guard once again (like a person who's judgement is so clouded at this point, that they don't fully pay attention to their surroundings), and ends up back in the Hollow... and is held there by the wizard his servants made to use the Sun's power (and effectively is only strong enough to hold him during the day).
I think he now can leave the Hollow whenever he's ready. But I don't think he's ready -- I think that Rajaat is planning his next steps. And I don't think he has a really true, and clear perspective about what he wants. He might think he's doing the right thing, he might be certain he's got it all figured out, but I think he's missing some of the finer details, and that he will do nothing but destroy Athas in the process.
He might have already signed the world's death warrant by misuse of the Pristine Tower, and the Sun's been dying for it. It's grown massive, and a dark red in color. I'd say once again that the next step for the Sun is to issue in the final age of Athas -- the "Age of Frozen Death", where everything cools off until all life dies -- it could be a long and drawn out age, but I think that's the eventual conclusion, and that where we are at in the timeline right now (FY 11) is pretty much in the twilight of Athas' existence.
I never even implied such a silly idea for Rajaat as "I will flood the world with my great watery body".
Sorry, I wasn't implying that you said that, but that is all that has been potrayed in regards to Rajaat's master plan thru the published material. That and to kill all non-halflings.
I understand and agree that Rajaat wasn't the most emotionally stable being as you've pointed out in great detail, however,I don't find it out of the realm of possibility that he had plans on returning the sun to its original blue state.
In its basic form, the Pristine Tower is nothing more than mega set of jumper cables. It channels the energy from one source into another. Whose to say that it can't be used in the reverse to channel energy back into the sun? What energy source could be used to recharge the sun? I have my speculations of course, but I think the most sound one is found in the Official Time Line as follows:
-Desert's Reverence
The First Sorcerer orders the defiler Qwith to explore the workings of the Inner Planes as a possible means of power
That begs the question "to power what"? He's already created magic. What more could he need that magic can't already do? Rekindle the damaged sun perhaps? It could be that Rajaat was looking to use energy from one of the inner planes to jump start the sun after the conclusion of his Cleansing War.
In its basic form, the Pristine Tower is nothing more than mega set of jumper cables. It channels the energy from one source into another. Whose to say that it can't be used in the reverse to channel energy back into the sun? What energy source could be used to recharge the sun? I have my speculations of course, but I think the most sound one is found in the Official Time Line as follows:
I see it more as a sort of terraforming/bioforming lifeshaped device designed to rid the world of the Brown Tide, and change the people in the process. It uses the sun as fuel to accomplish this grand-scale bioengineering, and Rajat has since retrofitted it (tinkered around way too much with it) to serve his purposes and more or less throwing caution to the wind when he did it.
That begs the question "to power what"? He's already created magic. What more could he need that magic can't already do? Rekindle the damaged sun perhaps? It could be that Rajaat was looking to use energy from one of the inner planes to jump start the sun after the conclusion of his Cleansing War.
Honestly, my guess is because Arcane Magic, as great as it is, won't be able to do what Rajaat envisions as the restoration of the Blue Age. He is a Pyreen, after all, and the Pyreen have Druidic abilities (and thus, an interesting link to the Inner Planes through Spirits of the Land). I think that Rajaat's deformities extend beyond the physical, and into the metaphysical as well -- he might not have this Druidic link. He could have been making a stride to connect to the Inner Planes himself, as he is aware of their power and potential (as the very elements of nature, they could help him return Athas to it's former glory). While I don't see the Elemental planes being of much help to him (or rather, willing to render aid to the being most directly responsible for the massive imbalance of nature currently in existence), the Paraelemental planes... particularly ones that are in dire need of help like Rain, might be more easily swayed. Rajaat could have been studying the Inner Planes, or rather having Quith do it for him, which results in the Deadlands -- connection to the Paraelemental plane of Magma (or rather, the "Quasielemental Plane of Obsidian" if I recall). While trapped in the Hollow, he might have made further strides to making this connection to those planes -- as evidenced with the Cerulean Storm.
Who knows, maybe he will attempt to restore the sun to it's former color and size. Maybe he is working on that now. Then again, he could be following the machiavellian path of "the ends justify the means" and just desiring to use the Paraelemental planes as a new source of power for himself in his crusade to annihilate all the Rebirth races, and not be troubled with thoughts like "Should the Sun turn Blue again or not" until after he's done with his current set of plans.
maybe i have misread it, but i seem to recall that when Rajaat escapes his prison in book five, the sun rises blue. in fact it is becuase of this strange blue sun that Rkard uses his sun tatoo, and does not try to use the sun directly. so my question to everyone is this: how did that happen. and if it did, how would this effect the rest of the world. to me, it seems like it would be a pretty important event. "hey guys, do you remember that day that they sun was blue for a while, that was wierd, huh?" major players from all over would be interested in the facts, and former champions not present would definately take notice.
Yeah, I'm with cnahumck! There's got to be a good explanation for the blue sun rising, the day Rajaat gets out of prison. Does it have anything to do with the shadow people or his connection to the pristine tower? Maybe the shadow people are his link to restoring Athas to the blue age. If I recall correctly and understand the story right, Rajaat only intended to rid Athas of the rebirth races and hand the planet over to the shadow people, so they can restore athas to it's former glory...
Time? How so? I've long thought that Rajaat would have studied the flow of time and how to traverse it.
In the last book when he is free from the hollow I think it said that he was reprinting the past over the present. I'll have to see if I can find it later...
Yeah, I'm with cnahumck! There's got to be a good explanation for the blue sun rising, the day Rajaat gets out of prison. Does it have anything to do with the shadow people or his connection to the pristine tower? Maybe the shadow people are his link to restoring Athas to the blue age. If I recall correctly and understand the story right, Rajaat only intended to rid Athas of the rebirth races and hand the planet over to the shadow people, so they can restore athas to it's former glory...
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the sun turning azure in hue was only limited to the area around Ur-Draxa. As far as I'm aware of, no other source material states that all of Athas experienced the sun changing color.
My reasoning behind that is that there are multiple sources that reference that the entire Tyr region felt the effects of the Great Quake that transpired that same day, but nothing on the general populace witnessing the sun turning blue.
Then again, he could be following the machiavellian path of "the ends justify the means" and just desiring to use the Paraelemental planes as a new source of power for himself in his crusade to annihilate all the Rebirth races, and not be troubled with thoughts like "Should the Sun turn Blue again or not" until after he's done with his current set of plans.
I think its more than just a cosmetic reason for wanting to turn the sun back to its original color and size. If Rajaat were to succeed in covering the entire surface of Athas in water once again the sun in its crimson state would more than likely cause that water to evaporate at a faster rate than it would under a blue one.
With this ancient knowledge, you either fix the tower or build another one. The power Rajaat used to make his champions are the main reason the sun is the way it is, so use the remaining champions as double-A batteries in the new tower.
It would be like a natural chemical balance was made unstable by Rajaat. A catalyst (Pristine Tower) was needed to unbalance the reaction so one would be needed to rebalance it. The power is still there (well some of it anyways, since some SKs bought the farm), it's just accumulated in the SKs... like the original carbon dioxide in our planet's ocean floor.
Of course, some reactions can't be undone and if this one could, one would have to find the info, spend enormous amounts of energy, materials and time and finally convince the SKs to give up their power for the good of Athas...
It could be done! :P
I think its more than just a cosmetic reason for wanting to turn the sun back to its original color and size. If Rajaat were to succeed in covering the entire surface of Athas in water once again the sun in its crimson state would more than likely cause that water to evaporate at a faster rate than it would under a blue one.
Good arguments here and in the previous post.
Of course, some reactions can't be undone and if this one could, one would have to find the info, spend enormous amounts of energy, materials and time and finally convince the SKs to give up their power for the good of Athas...
It could be done! :P
Perhaps part of Rajaat's plan was to incapacitate his Champions and return that energy to the sun after they finshed with the Cleansing Wars?
Good arguments here and in the previous post.
Thanks. :D
I'm not saying that it was definitely in Rajaat's plans to "fix" the sun but just that it was very likely.
Perhaps part of Rajaat's plan was to incapacitate his Champions and return that energy to the sun after they finshed with the Cleansing Wars?
I found it silly to think Rajaat would recycle his Champions, but thinking about it you see references in RaFoaDK that would support that, mainly Rajaat telling the newly-minted Hamanu that his task is the facilitation of the return to the Blue Age. Recycling Hamanu in the end, and all the other Champions, would be one way of facilitating that return.
Its theoretically plausible. Problem is that Rajaat personaly killed Tec using a bludgeoning instrument and ravaged Borys using the black goo as a proxy. Reading the PP you get the impression he would have killed all of his Champions if he had had the chance, and that is one major thorn in the Recycling Theory (let's chirsten it!
)Here is another idea- he may have been keeping the human race around as the final one because 1) they were more numerous 2) adaptable to his great restoration plan and 3) he was going to pull the life energy out of all the humans (using the Dark Lens and the tower) and channel it back up into the sun to get it to change back to blue.
Well maybe he was just really ticked off and it was an accident that he killed Tec- and there was no way he would know that the Scourge would be broken.
Here is another idea- he may have been keeping the human race around as the final one because 1) they were more numerous 2) adaptable to his great restoration plan and 3) he was going to pull the life energy out of all the humans (using the Dark Lens and the tower) and channel it back up into the sun to get it to change back to blue.
I was thinking along the same lines, but was thinking that he would have syphoned the energy from those gifted in the Way. From human and halfling alike. Psionics didn't exsist during the Blue Age so I would only think it a matter of time before Rajaat tried to eleminate/remove it from Athas as well.
Sounds like people wanting to make Rajaat into a good guy... But it could just be the lack of caffiene in my system saying that.
/me grabs a funnel and starts pouring hot, black coffee down xlorep's throat
Wake up!
:D
He may have found the Avangion form and nature unsuitable to ride the world of its 'cancer'
and so he only crafted dragons to fight. Imagine if Hamannu had been able to fully transform? he would have destroyed all non halflings in his rage, in addition, he didn't need (if you follow RaFoaDK) a spell to advance his metamorphosis. On top of that, he had a connection to the sun much like Sadira (even stronger than hers if you accept RaFoaDK) so, he's already a conduit for the sun, how hard then to use that same conduit to funnel energy back to the sun?Imagine an Epic Spell used especially to funnel all the energy Hamannu would have absorbed, right back up to the sun, strait through the Pristine Tower. It would have taken his own life, which he and Rajaat wouldn't have cared much about, since he considered himself 'cursed' anyway, and Rajaat could have then used the restored sun to restore athas..
oh, One other thought.. the sun turning blue.. could that have been in any way associated with the earthquake?? If the sun instantly changes size (regardless of color) isn't that going to send at least a minor shockwave through space? And lets say that magic being all powerful as it is, it minimized the shockwave, so it only slightly jars athas.. no biggie. Then Rajaat rips open the Cerulean Storm, and begins a Teraforming restoration of Athas... Perhaps having gained enough knowledge and power in his stay in the hollow, to be able to do things without his life-shaped champion batteries.. so he starts destroying them.. then Rkard happens to get 'lucky'..
Personally, I wonder if the change in the sun to blue, and the stamp on his forehead, would have had 'any' difference at all with his gaining powers.. certainly Rajaat cannot alter the cosmos of both the sun around Athas "and" an entire para-elemental plane! Were all the Para-elementals of sun suddenly changed to blue?? If so, they might have been happy, or ticked, who knows what if any consequences that would have had, if it even happened :P
Sounds like people wanting to make Rajaat into a good guy... But it could just be the lack of caffiene in my system saying that.
Not so much that he's a good guy, but rather that I'd think Rajaat would want to preserve what he had planned and fought untold centuries to achieve.
Not so much that he's a good guy, but rather that I'd think Rajaat would want to preserve what he had planned and fought untold centuries to achieve.
Ahh. see, like I said before, I don't think he really understands what he wants to achieve. I think his plan is flawed, and his vision of what to do to return Athas to the Blue Age, will only leave a dead husk of a shattered world, with nothing surviving (if that!) I think his ideas are flawed, corrupted, and above all, effectively will doom the world.
Taking a page from the Dragonlance Legends series -- Raistlin, who wasn't exactly a moron either and arguably one of the (if not the) most powerful beings in that setting, figures out a way to achieve godhood, and hos twin brother actually leaps forward in time to see hthe results -- the world is dead, and Raistlin has killed every other god in the pantheon and doomed the world he sought to be a god of. Does it mean that Raistlin wasn't certain he was in the right? Nope. It means that his ideals were flawed -- tarnished -- and I think that for Dark Sun, Rajaat's ideals are equally tarnished. You can't bring back a vibrant, full of life world by wiping out most of the life upon it. Well, at least that's a general and relatively standard theme in fantasy (and sci-fi); hell, it's even pretty much a theme in real life as well. Genocide never has proven benefitial. Genocide at any cost seems, well, even worse.
Ahh. see, like I said before, I don't think he really understands what he wants to achieve. I think his plan is flawed, and his vision of what to do to return Athas to the Blue Age, will only leave a dead husk of a shattered world, with nothing surviving (if that!) I think his ideas are flawed, corrupted, and above all, effectively will doom the world.
Taking a page from the Dragonlance Legends series -- Raistlin, who wasn't exactly a moron either and arguably one of the (if not the) most powerful beings in that setting, figures out a way to achieve godhood, and hos twin brother actually leaps forward in time to see hthe results -- the world is dead, and Raistlin has killed every other god in the pantheon and doomed the world he sought to be a god of. Does it mean that Raistlin wasn't certain he was in the right? Nope. It means that his ideals were flawed -- tarnished -- and I think that for Dark Sun, Rajaat's ideals are equally tarnished. You can't bring back a vibrant, full of life world by wiping out most of the life upon it. Well, at least that's a general and relatively standard theme in fantasy (and sci-fi); hell, it's even pretty much a theme in real life as well. Genocide never has proven benefitial. Genocide at any cost seems, well, even worse.
I’m not arguing the fact that Rajaat was infallible and that his plans would or would not succeed, just that he would have had preparations to restore the sun in the event that he achieved the ultimate goal of cleansing the Rebirth races and re-submerging Athas in a vast ocean of water.
If he really wanted to flood Athas- well he was powerful enough that he could always just open a huge Gate into the elemental palne of water and let the wet stuff come in- instant pool party.
Wasn't that what Rajaat was essentially doing at the end of the PP?
Wasn't that what Rajaat was essentially doing at the end of the PP?
Xlorep's argument that Rajaat would ultimately have failed, that he was under the same delusion as Dregoth*, loses speed IMO when you read the end of the PP when he basically does exactly what he set out to: bring back the sun, the water, the life (he even brought back the coral-like living stone), everything. If the heroes of Tyr and the SKs had not stopped him, I believe the changes would have expanded steadily outwards to cover the entire world.
* Dregoth believes his Godhood spell will work, even though others who've looked at it don't. In this case Rajaat would also be under the false belief he can turn everything back as it was after messing with the world's order.
Perhaps a topic for another thread, but what could be the explanation as to what happened to Rajaat which enabled him to do the things he was doing at the end of the Cerulean Storm?( i.e. create seemingly endless amounts of water, grow in height, gather clouds and form them into his body, etc...). Even Sacha or Wyan (I can't remember which at the moment) commented that Rajaat had changed upon seeing him.
Wasn't it because of his connection with the shadow people, Khidar and co.?
TCS page 2 (PP)
Khidar winced, his eyes and mouth sliding down the inside of the black shell. Our fates are bound together, he said, with more regret than enthusiasm. We have no concern except the future of Athas.
Never forget that, Rajaat hissed, the blue rays in his empty eye sockets flickering in ire. Think of all that I have sacrificed to return the world to yor people, and follow my example.
We are most grateful, Khidar assured him. We'll see to whatever you wish.
Good. It would be best to avenge the sorcerer-kings' betrayal before proceeding with the restoration, Rajaat said.
From what I understand, is that the shadow people are providing Rajaat with some service. It is never said what it is, but I like to think that they are his link to turning the sun blue. Maybe they strengthen his link with the Pristine Tower....
Wasn't it because of his connection with the shadow people, Khidar and co.?
No. Khidar and his people are the descendants of the original halflings that were loyal to Rajaat. They did not grant Rajaat anything other than being his servants.
No. Khidar and his people are the descendants of the original halflings that were loyal to Rajaat. They did not grant Rajaat anything other than being his servants.
They were, but why can't they be his link to some sort of power, because they are shadow people?
Who made Sadira this powerful sun-wizard she is today other than the shadow people.
They were, but why can't they be his link to some sort of power, because they are shadow people?
Who made Sadira this powerful sun-wizard she is today other than the shadow people.
Thru the knowledge of Rajaat who was no doubt instructing them to do so. They wished to use Sadira to kill their master's jailer Borys and hence free him.
Thru the knowledge of Rajaat who was no doubt instructing them to do so. They wished to use Sadira to kill their master's jailer Borys and hence free him.
(that's my best argument at the moment)
I'm sure that the shadow people could have been used to help Rajaat in gaining the powers that he demonstrated after his released. A theory I have is the obsidian that the Khidar and his people were gathering was for the purpose of aiding Rajaat in the restoration of the Blue Age. Yes, they said that they are using the obsidian for the "egging" of their young, but it could have been a ruse in order for them to obtain obsidian from House Lubar and other sources.
What enabled them to use the tower as they did? While Rajaat presumably used magic????
in 2e (forgive the trip down memory lane) halflings couldn't use arcane magic.. so my question is this.. why could the halflings of the tower, even as shadow giants, alter Sadira? Did they use magic? Did they use some remnant ability of life shaping? (if they did they were a heck of a lot better at it than previous generations that's for sure!)
What enabled them to use the tower as they did? While Rajaat presumably used magic????
Nothing indicates they used, or even know, magic. They apparently used the Steeple of Crystals, and all the "equipment" within - light from the crystal cupola, concentrated through the crystals, amidsts a room filled with weird energies, etc... - to make Sadira be able to use the sun's energy.
So this means that transfomring people into sun wizards is a normal capability of the Steeple, and does not require a spellcaster to be activated.
Remember Lyric- the tower has been around since or before the Blue Age- and they had ben living within the tower for several thousand years- during which time I am sure anyone would be able to figure it out.
Especially when Rajaat's guiding them behind the scenes ;)
the pristine tower was a life-shaped creation of the ancient halflings, shaped and created from the same porous white rock that was used to make so many other structures and items of their time. i think that the Tower itself is probably the greatest of their achievements. i think that all knowledge of modern athasian sorcery was derived from the research and understanding of the ancient nature-master ways...in fact, i'd go so far as to say that it is derivative, and that magic is merely a lower and more rudimentary aspect of this ancient meta-science. Rajaat learned a great many things from his research of the Rhulisti and the Pristine Tower, and his delvings into these long-forgottem mysteries ushered in a new era of change that penultimately served to restore Athas and return it to the Blue Age. i think that Rajaat new more than he led on, and that his plans were much more far-reaching. he was after all a several thousand year old being (which despite still being 'mortal' far surpasses the span and wisdom of a mere human life, or even the life of a dwarf or even a dragon for that matter). his IDEALS may be flawed, but i'd hazard that his plan is not. i will support the possibility that the results of his schemes may have completely unforseen consequences, much like those of Dregoth's Godhood spell.
he may have had a vast knowledge of magic, but i'm certain that it is merely a fraction of the knowledge of the Rhulisti as a whole. the Shadow People may be using him to serve their needs, but i wouldn't say they are responsible for his current knowledge or the creation of modern preserver, defiler, gray wizard, cerulean wizard, or Sun magic (they may share his knowledge, but aren't responsible FOR it).
i think that the essence of it is still based off of the positive and negative energy planes (in the real-world life-cycle of a star, a Blue Dwarf actually comes AFTER a Red Giant and is one of the FINAL stages in the star's maturity and not the first), and that the reason it has changed is due to it's proximity to the negative plane...this also explains the emergence of para- and quasi-elements around and after the Cleansing Wars and Age of Sorcerer Kings. i think Rajaat understood this. i like the "SK's as Batteries" theory, and feel that it fits. i also think that the final step in Rajaat's restoration would be to sacrifice his essence as well...his connection to the elements, to the positive and negative planes, as well as the quasi- and para-elemental planes would be the final surge of energy that would catalyze the shifting of the sun back towards the positive energy plane and REVERSING it's solar life-cycle, a sort of negative energy surge that would shunt the sun back to the positive side...
the one thing i think he overlooked was human will, and it pretty much set his plan back several thousands of years... ;)
in many ways i see the Rhulisti life-shaping as a high from of magic, that this "science" or "meta-science" was composed of both elemental and thamaturgical energies; and that it was a greater and more powerful magic than what is common on other worlds.
I generally think more that it was bioengineering. Technology, not mystical energies. Basically, I tend to think that Athas started with a Sci-Fi race, and ended in fantasy (and post-apocalypic fantasy). In a sense, a somewhat reversed order of what would be considered the "typical" line-up of time periods for a world. I think that Lifeshaping required vast amounts of understanding of the genetic levels of life itself, and the Rhulisti had wielded it like a surgeon's scalpel -- everything in their lives had become affected by lifeshaped technology. And everything was more or less "ok" -- up until the Nature Benders and their corrupted view of lifeshaping came around. The Brown Tide was made, and the Rhulisti saw that their own lifeshaping could destroy their homeworld.
Their solution? The Pristine Tower. Specially-made, and grown from the world itself, it serves as a focal point to basically both terraform the world (and eliminate the Brown Tide), as well as reengineer themselves as a species into a variety of maybe "improved" races, while wiping all knowledge of Lifeshaping from themselves. Some Rhulisti escaped that -- the Nature Benders were exhiled, and I'd guess that they found an insectoid species that they began to model as soldiers to retake their Tyr'agi homes. Others could have escaped Athas all together (and became the dreaded "space halflings" that people joke about here -- but I like to make those ones into the Star Wars Yuuzhon Vong personally). The rest all became the Rebirth races. Minds and memories wiped, they have to relearn civilization all over again -- possibly the Pyreen were intentionally made in order to help direct the others to refinding civilization.
the pristine tower was a life-shaped creation of the ancient halflings, shaped and created from the same porous white rock that was used to make so many other structures and items of their time. i think that the Tower itself is probably the greatest of their achievements. i think that all knowledge of modern athasian sorcery was derived from the research and understanding of the ancient nature-master ways...in fact, i'd go so far as to say that it is derivative, and that magic is merely a lower and more rudimentary aspect of this ancient meta-science. Rajaat learned a great many things from his research of the Rhulisti and the Pristine Tower, and his delvings into these long-forgottem mysteries ushered in a new era of change that penultimately served to restore Athas and return it to the Blue Age. i think that Rajaat new more than he led on, and that his plans were much more far-reaching. he was after all a several thousand year old being (which despite still being 'mortal' far surpasses the span and wisdom of a mere human life, or even the life of a dwarf or even a dragon for that matter). his IDEALS may be flawed, but i'd hazard that his plan is not. i will support the possibility that the results of his schemes may have completely unforseen consequences, much like those of Dregoth's Godhood spell.
I tend to think that the modern Arcane magics are a bastardization of what Rajaat discovered by studying the Rhulisti's lifeshaping technologies. He was incapable of lifeshaping, but in the process of his research, he stumbled into something else that provided him a means to his end.
he may have had a vast knowledge of magic, but i'm certain that it is merely a fraction of the knowledge of the Rhulisti as a whole. the Shadow People may be using him to serve their needs, but i wouldn't say they are responsible for his current knowledge or the creation of modern preserver, defiler, gray wizard, cerulean wizard, or Sun magic (they may share his knowledge, but aren't responsible FOR it).
I think the Shadow Giants aren't Rhulisti. They are Halflings, to be sure, and he probably had trained them in what he knew of the Rhulisti Lifeshaping, but they are no more capable of understanding it than the Rhul-Thaun or any other Rebirth race. They serve Rajaat's goals, his needs, his whims, and I'd say are totally dominated by his mind to do his bidding.
i think that the essence of it is still based off of the positive and negative energy planes (in the real-world life-cycle of a star, a Blue Dwarf actually comes AFTER a Red Giant and is one of the FINAL stages in the star's maturity and not the first), and that the reason it has changed is due to it's proximity to the negative plane...this also explains the emergence of para- and quasi-elements around and after the Cleansing Wars and Age of Sorcerer Kings. i think Rajaat understood this. i like the "SK's as Batteries" theory, and feel that it fits. i also think that the final step in Rajaat's restoration would be to sacrifice his essence as well...his connection to the elements, to the positive and negative planes, as well as the quasi- and para-elemental planes would be the final surge of energy that would catalyze the shifting of the sun back towards the positive energy plane and REVERSING it's solar life-cycle, a sort of negative energy surge that would shunt the sun back to the positive side...
I don't like adding the positive and negative energy planes to Athas. They didn't exist there before.
I think the Shadow Giants aren't Rhulisti. They are Halflings, to be sure, and he probably had trained them in what he knew of the Rhulisti Lifeshaping, but they are no more capable of understanding it than the Rhul-Thaun or any other Rebirth race. They serve Rajaat's goals, his needs, his whims, and I'd say are totally dominated by his mind to do his bidding.
Where I think they are more or less what's left of the Nature Master side of the Rhulisti (minus what's under Cleft Rock slumbering, though those might be Nature Benders of the Rhulisti and not Nature Masters, I haven't decided yet) although probably a bit more corrupt than what they were in the good ol days. One could argue that they might even be what was the begining of the Rhul-thaun extension of the Halfling line.
I do see where the normal halfling argument comes from though, Denning didn't paint them very well IMO in the Cerulean Storm and I think there might be more to them despite his limited painting of them as typical halflings that just got mutated some by being Rajaat's followers.
I would just personally like to see them as a bit more than that, and I think it's fitting more if they are.
Here's a thought I just had: WHAT IF the Prestine Tower has to do more with time travel than altering the sun? We know that changes in a sun are generally on an order of magnitude measured in millions, if no billions of years. So, here's my what-if. What if, at the end of the whole Brown Tide business, Athas is in ruins. Perhaps even worse off than right now. Populations of millions about to starve, the whole race teetering on extinction because the land (or seas) can't possibly sustain them. So perhaps either a small group of the life-shapers or the whole halfling civilization were "moved forward" in time, using the Tower, to a point in time when Athas has healed. Maybe they went into cyro-freeze, or somesuch deal. When they emerged, either the process changed them into the rebirth races, or the surviving halflings had evolved during the millions of years, but all of the races were stone-age cavemen. So civilization begins anew, but to those that write history, they thought it was all the 'magic' of the tower that did all the changes instantly.
Anyways, just a thought I figured I'd toss out there
Well I haven't said anything stupid this week, so I'm due ;)
Here's a thought I just had: WHAT IF the Prestine Tower has to do more with time travel than altering the sun? We know that changes in a sun are generally on an order of magnitude measured in millions, if no billions of years. So, here's my what-if. What if, at the end of the whole Brown Tide business, Athas is in ruins. Perhaps even worse off than right now. Populations of millions about to starve, the whole race teetering on extinction because the land (or seas) can't possibly sustain them. So perhaps either a small group of the life-shapers or the whole halfling civilization were "moved forward" in time, using the Tower, to a point in time when Athas has healed. Maybe they went into cyro-freeze, or somesuch deal. When they emerged, either the process changed them into the rebirth races, or the surviving halflings had evolved during the millions of years, but all of the races were stone-age cavemen. So civilization begins anew, but to those that write history, they thought it was all the 'magic' of the tower that did all the changes instantly.
Anyways, just a thought I figured I'd toss out there
An interesting, if not radical, theory.
that being said i still follow the old TSR multiversal model of existence (because i'm a grizzled ol' salty dog) with the inner planes (elemental planes, positive and negative energy planes and the resultant planes that exist in the transitions - para elements between earth and water, fire and air, etc.; and quasi elements that are tainted by positive and negative - lightning, ash, dust, vaccuum, radiance, etc.); then the ethereal and demi-planes; then the primes (Athas included); then the astral and finally the outer planes.
i know that that model isn't existant in the current version of AD&D so exclusion of the standard inner planes is understandable; but it's just how i choose to skew it. i see Athas sitting deeper in the ethereal plane than other prime world's and thus it is "closer" to the elemental planes (as defined in the multiversal cosmology). however, it's "elemental", "para-elemental" and "quasi-elemental" planes of Athas are actually demi-plane facsimiles of the real planes they seek to represent. this phenomenon is due to Athas' strange position in the multiverse as well as the sub-dimensional phenomenon surrounding it - the black, gray and the hollow. to me Athas is truly a unique prime amongst all other primes, and it is the cause for much debate and speculation amongst the Guvners in Sigil...but i digress...
as for Rhulisti technology, it still ends up operating in similar fashion to magic. a life-shaped item will emulate or re-create a spell-like power or ability, or serve to function as an enhancement or healing item. one way or the other it's an ends to a means. i choose to view life-shaping as a greater magic rather than a scientific technology, if that were the case then why not introduce other scientific technologies to Athasian history? gun powder, combustion engines, etc. these certainly would be much more derivative of biotechnology than sorcery would be (seeing as the most efficient machines we know of are living organisms). in the end this slant works for me and my campaign needs, but i don't expect anyone to follow it. it's just my take on the question.
well, admittedly (and i know i'm in the minority here) i'm also a big fan of planescape and spelljammer (the latter being THE FIRST AD&D setting i ever played and the former being the most recent with Dark Sun inbetween).
that being said i still follow the old TSR multiversal model of existence (because i'm a grizzled ol' salty dog) with the inner planes (elemental planes, positive and negative energy planes and the resultant planes that exist in the transitions - para elements between earth and water, fire and air, etc.; and quasi elements that are tainted by positive and negative - lightning, ash, dust, vaccuum, radiance, etc.); then the ethereal and demi-planes; then the primes (Athas included); then the astral and finally the outer planes.
I tend to follow the same, however Athas isn't exactly meshing with that model. Defilers & Preservers define Athas' Cosmology as:
- Inner Planes:
- Fire
- Air
- Earth
- Water
- Magma
- Sun
- Silt
- Rain
- Fire
- Transitive Planes:
- Gray
- Black
- Gray
- Demiplanes:
- Hollow
- Hollow
- Prime:
- Athas
- Athas
- Outer:
- Not available/applicable, due to the Gray, which serves as an impassable barrier between everything inside the Gray and everything outside the Gray (the outer planes).
- Not available/applicable, due to the Gray, which serves as an impassable barrier between everything inside the Gray and everything outside the Gray (the outer planes).
There never was any defined Positive or Negative Energy Planes for Athas -- the implications seemed to be that the Gray kinda takes some of the Negative Energy Plane stats, while the Black does for others. The Elemental and Paraelemental Planes seem to have inherited some of the Positive Energy Planes. The Gray itself appears to be some mix of the Astral and Ethereal planes, and the Black seems somewhere between the Plane of Shadows, Plane of Nightmares, and a bit of the Negative Energy Plane all thrown into one.
Of course, I propose that the Plane of Mirrors is still connected/linked to Athas, is virtually unknown/unheardof, and is how the Planar Gate of Dregoth's actually makes a connection to the Outer Planes.
i know that that model isn't existant in the current version of AD&D so exclusion of the standard inner planes is understandable; but it's just how i choose to skew it. i see Athas sitting deeper in the ethereal plane than other prime world's and thus it is "closer" to the elemental planes (as defined in the multiversal cosmology). however, it's "elemental", "para-elemental" and "quasi-elemental" planes of Athas are actually demi-plane facsimiles of the real planes they seek to represent. this phenomenon is due to Athas' strange position in the multiverse as well as the sub-dimensional phenomenon surrounding it - the black, gray and the hollow. to me Athas is truly a unique prime amongst all other primes, and it is the cause for much debate and speculation amongst the Guvners in Sigil...but i digress...
Believe me, you're preaching to a choir here about how to line up the planar cosmology. However Athas wasn't really fitting in correctly in 2e, so it seems rational enough to have it not quite fit in 3e. I personally operate it like it's a smooth, bizarre bubble in the Astral Plane, where the Astral and Ethereal planes somehow intersected (and the Gray was formed). It's been penetrated twice -- which is where the Githyanki, Githzerai, and Psionic Bomb come into play. It has no connection to the Outer Planes, which is why there are no gods on Athas.
as for Rhulisti technology, it still ends up operating in similar fashion to magic. a life-shaped item will emulate or re-create a spell-like power or ability, or serve to function as an enhancement or healing item. one way or the other it's an ends to a means.
Mechanically, yes, they both more or less end up with the same results. However by making it connected to magic, that implies that people with Magic ability could potentially develop lifeshaping. However, I have them as fundamentally different things.
i choose to view life-shaping as a greater magic rather than a scientific technology, if that were the case then why not introduce other scientific technologies to Athasian history? gun powder, combustion engines, etc.
Because those are mechanical technology, not bioengineered technology. And if the Rhulisti intentionally eliminated all knowledge of how to recreate the Lifeshaping from those races produced by the Rebirth, well...
these certainly would be much more derivative of biotechnology than sorcery would be (seeing as the most efficient machines we know of are living organisms). in the end this slant works for me and my campaign needs, but i don't expect anyone to follow it. it's just my take on the question.
Well, that's just it. I've been reading the New Jedi Order series of novels, and it helps me paint a more solid picture for how the Rhulisti technology would work (I started reading the books because the Yuuzhon Vong are extraordinarily similar to the Rhulisti in a great many ways, and Dark Sun developers/authors had migrated to Star Wars when TSR collapsed, including one relatively familiar name -- Troy Dening). The Yuuzhon Vong's bioengineering is completely different from mechanical technology. Nothing they use is mechanical, or made through mechanical technologies (curiously enough, their "engineers" are called "shapers", and there is a lot of evidence that points that the Yuuzhon Vong race was heavily modeled after the Rhulisti from Dark Sun). Everything, from the clothing they wear, the weapons they wield, various gadgets and tools they have, and even the vehicles they use are not just organically made, but are actually alive (sound familiar?). The apparent way they develop things is by modifying existing creatures' genetic structures to serve their purposes (much like the nature benders) as opposed to actually creating brand new species of lifeshaped creatures (which would be more like the nature masters).
With this idea, I can see that the Rhulisti lifeshaping could easily be similar -- nothing about it was developed from mechanical technological engineering -- it was all genetic manipulation, with the nature masters being able to create new life (rather than just alter existing life). This would make for technology that would have absolutely no connections to mechanical engineering. However, the knowledge as to how to accomplish this level of genetic manipulation has become lost (even before the time of Rajaat).
Rajaat has certain qualities that didn't exist with the Rhulisti -- he's Psionic, and his race has Divine magical abilities (Psion/Druids). As such, maybe he started all of this as an effort to "cure" himself from the hideousness and deformities of his body. He tracks down, finds Rhulisti life-shaped technology in ruins (functional or not), sees that it obviously was made by a race that could drastically alter the appearance of living things. So, he digs further, in an effort to cure himself. Frustrated after years of research in an effort to duplicate the technology he begins to try "unorthodox" methods to unlocking the secrets -- including his own Psionic abilites, and then maybe even attempting to unlock a magical means as well. The results of this would be the discovery and development of Arcane Magic. Now, Arcane Magic didn't give him the results he wanted -- but it was quickly recognized by him as a tool to assist him as a means to an end. This end? He says he wants to restore Athas to the world it was when the Rhulisti were around -- that could have originally had been as an effort to learn from them directly how to do lifeshaping. Arcane Magic wasn't Lifeshaping, by a long shot. But, it is a tool to succeed in his grand schemes.
has the Black and Gray existed since the birth of Athas? has it always been a part of it's odd cosmology? or is it a result of the changes that have been wrought upon Athas over its history?
i see your point on both accounts. though wouldn't you agree that the presence of quasi-elements or even quasi-element facsimiles (sun = radiance; silt = dust) and the negative aspect of the Black itself sort of IMPLY the presence of a certain amount of negative planar energy and positive planar energy? my idea was that the Athasian elements are demi-planes of elemental, para-elemental, and quasi-elemental energy TRAPPED inside the Gray as it is funneled to the prime on which Athas exists.
Well, the Inner Planes are individual to each world, even if the Outer Planes aren't (or the Transitive Planes for that matter). But regardless, I've usually seen the Black as the piece of the Shadow Plane trapped within the Gray, and the Athasian Elemental Planes are more or less what there is trapped within the Gray as well. It's almost it's own mini-universe of sorts.
And the Quasielemental planes had been mentioned in Earth, Air, Fire, and Water. I just figured that they were smaller planes intermixe between the Elemental and Paraelemental planes. The Quasielemental plane of Obsidian is one that stands out as important, what with a portal that was opened to it resulting in the Deadlands. And I also vaguely remember that the "typical" Paraelements from D&D that were supplanted by Sun, Silt, and Rain, actually are to be found in the listing of Quasielements for Athas -- almost like things had been swapped around a bit (maybe due to Rajaat's meddling -- Arcane magic causes an imbalance in nature, resulting in certain quasielements becoming more powerful and supplanting their Paraelements, pushing forward and increasing in influence in the world?)
I've also considered, from time to time, to make a special group of really, really rare Clerics -- the Quasielemental Clerics. I dunno... time's just not giving me the opportunity to work on it :P
perhaps the formation of the Black and the Gray is only recent in Athasian history? that during the Blue Age the elements (including para and quasi) all flowed like wine into the Athasian crystal sphere, then when the nature masters used the Pristine Tower, the massive shift in energy caused the formation of the two Transitive planes, the Black and the Gray, and thus the forming of the Athasian elemental planes? the once freely flowing elemental energy suddenly had to traverse two transitive planes thereby large collections of elemental energy began to form pockets within these new planes. over time the pockets might merge to form the Athasian para-elements and quasi-elements. the more powerful vortices, the living vortices, of elemental energy continued through these two new planes but when the Age of Sorcerer Kings began they were used up. The changes on Athas also created more of the Athasian para-elements like silt and sun which before had limited access to the prime plane. Thus, the role of elemental beings became more prevalent because now most elemental energy had to be called through an elemental cleric or spirit of the land in order to reach Athas behind the fully formed Black and Gray. the Hollow, a sub-dimension of non-existence, is the most recent addition to the cosmology, having been created when Rajaat was imprisoned.
Intriguing idea. I have considered some explanation to the formation of the Athasian cosmology before myself.
has the Black and Gray existed since the birth of Athas? has it always been a part of it's odd cosmology? or is it a result of the changes that have been wrought upon Athas over its history?
Always been there. At least, if I remember correctly.
I've also considered, from time to time, to make a special group of really, really rare Clerics -- the Quasielemental Clerics. I dunno... time's just not giving me the opportunity to work on it :P
I actually had negative and positive material clerics written up for use in my old 2e campaign. I never got the chance to use them though. I planned on using them if my players ever reached the Dead Lands.
the Hollow, a sub-dimension of non-existence, is the most recent addition to the cosmology, having been created when Rajaat was imprisoned.
that's acutally unclear. There are contradictions on whether or not it was discovered in time to use as Rajaat's prison, or if it was created.
has the Black and Gray existed since the birth of Athas? has it always been a part of it's odd cosmology? or is it a result of the changes that have been wrought upon Athas over its history?
Also never made clear. However, given Melka's timeline, it would seem that there have never been clerics (of gods) on Athas. This would suggest that the Grey, at least, has always been present. However, there's no material in cannon that really supports this one way or the other.
Oh, a spinoff thought because of the comment earlier on Time, and the Sun, and the Tower... I think with Preserver Magic, and the Tower, and the Dark Lense.. the Sun could be reverted through time, sort of like reversing its life cycle, to the point where its blue or yellow again.. that to me is the spell Rajaat cast on his release, however, without the tower and the lense to make it permanent, it was undone when he was captured again..