Cosmology of Mystara (Revised)
The Multiverse
Inner Planes
Prime Plane (Mystara)
Plane of Fire
Plane of Earth
Plane of Water
Plane of Air
Plane of Limbo (Negative Energy)
Plane of Dreamlands (Positive Energy)
Transtive Planes
Ethereal Plane (Cotermous with Prime, Ethereal and Nightmare Plane)
Nightmare Plane (Contermous with Prime, Ethereal and Astral Plane, Linked with alternate Primes)
Astral Plane (Cotermous with Ethereal, Nightmare and Outer Planes)
Vortex Plane (The outermost layer of the Multiverse, extremely hostile environment)
Outer Planes
Plane of Energy (Draesten)
Plane of Matter (Brynn)
Plane of Time (Entrem)
Plane of Thought (Mirage)
Plane of Entropy (Pyx)
(Each of the above provides a connection to the home planes of the immortals of that sphere.)
Alternate Prime Planes
Plane of Old Alphatia
Plane of New Blackmoor
Plane of Aelos
Plane of LaTerre (Myth)
Plane of Technology
For more Outer Planes, see my Complete List of Mystaran Planes and Dimensions
Håvard
What about spells like Teleport that use the Astral Plane? In OD&D they used "Hyperspace" - what do they use here?
It seems to me that the Positive and Negative Energy Planes are literally Draesten and Pyx.
So I take it that spells that use the Plane of Shadow in the standard cosmology (Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Walk, and so on) use the Plane of Nightmares in Mystara?
Indeed! The Plane of Nightmares as presented in this version is a combination of the 3E Plane of Shadows and the OD&D Dimension of Nightmares. Shadow-related spells use the Plane of Nightmares. It is a plane native to both shadow creatures and abberations as well as the Diaboli, Malfera and Nightshades who are some of the traditional Nightmare creatures of Mystara. It is interesting that in 3E, the Nightshade is also listed to be native to the Plane of Shadows, so the connection seemed likely. Also, in this way, the Plane of Nightmares becomes the gateway to the paralell Primes such as LaTerre(Myth) and Old Alphatia (Cyprisia). It didnt seem worth it having these have complete multiverses of their own when really it is just the prime plane of those worlds that is interesting. It will also allow us to explain Nightmarish presences on LaTerre which some fan based material suggests.
What about spells like Teleport that use the Astral Plane? In OD&D they used "Hyperspace" - what do they use here?
Hmmm...could they still use the Astral? Or the Ethereal?
It seems to me that the Positive and Negative Energy Planes are literally Draesten and Pyx.
Agreed! I realized this after I made the original posting. Limbo and the Dreamlands still replace the Energy Planes as Inner Planes, but Negative and Positive Energy in terms of undead and turning etc is linked to the Sphere Home Planes. Positive 'Energy' would be split into Thought (Positive Thinking? ;) ) Matter, Energy, and Time while Negative Energy comes from the home plane of Entropy....
Håvard
Inner Planes
Prime Plane (Mystara and Aelos)
Plane of Fire
Plane of Earth
Plane of Water
Plane of Air
Transtive Planes
Ethereal Plane (Coterminous with Prime, Elemental Planes and Astral)
Astral Plane (Coterminous with Ethereal and Outer Planes)
Vortex Plane (The outermost layer of the Multiverse coterminous with SOME Outer Planes, extremely hostile environment)
Outer Planes
Endless named and unnamed planes, most of them coterminous with the Astral, just a few coterminous with other Planes and the Vortex. All of them are biased towards one and only ONE of the five immortal Spheres.
Among them we can name:
Draesten (Energy)
Brynn (Matter)
Entrem (Time)
Mirage (Thought)
Pyts (Entropy)
Old Alphatia (Energy)
Alternate Prime Planes
Plane of New Blackmoor (maybe Greyhawk?)
Plane of LaTerre (aka Dimension of Myth)
Plane of Nightmares (aka Dimension of Nightmares)
Plane of Spirits (aka Spiritworld -see Ethengar)
Limbo is still a mystery, but IMHO it may be located :
a) at the Border Etheral, coterminous with the Astral and the Ethereal, dominated by Chaos (Entropy)
b) in the first layer of the Vortex
c) in one of the Outer Planes (biased towards Entropy)
Likewise the Dreamlands are a bit tough to place, but we've got 3 options (the first is always my preferred choice)
a) in the Astral Plane (it's one of the worlds there)
b) in another Prime
c) in a special Outer Plane given to the Fey by the Hierarchs
Finally, the Plane of Shadows and the Planes of Positive and Negative energy have never really been part of the Mystaran cosmology. If I had to introduce them however, I would make the plane of Shadows part of the Inner Planes, coterminous to the Prime and the Ethereal ONLY.
As for the Positive and Negative planes, the idea of having the Outer Planes as a whole as sources of these energies is superb, and I would not limit the planes to the ones listed in WotI. Actually IMO ALL Entropic planes produce negative energy, while the planes of ALL other spheres produce positive energy.
Remember that Draesten, Mirage & Co are simply Meeting Planes for the different spheres, where each immortal mantains a Hall and all the meetings of the immortals of that particular sphere are HELD. Likely no immortal owns these planes, but in case you think differently, then they are probably the property of the current Ruling Hierarch (and thus their lordship changes with time).
My two Power Points on the matter :P
Afterall, what we all seem to agree upon is to tone down the concept of Dimensions. I think they may still exist, but most of the worlds formerly described as dimensions (Myth, Nightmare, Vortex etc) have become either Alternate Primes or Transtive Planes.
One thing that apparently wasn't made clear in my original writeup is that I consider the Spirit World and the Dreamlands (Fey Realm) to be one and the same. This is why I felt that it along with Limbo in the Mystaran Multiverse would take the place of the Positive and Negative Energy Planes. These planes both deal with the Soul, which often in the occult tradition is seen as the Fifth Element, thus appropriately grouped with the Elemental Planes.
I disagree with you and Cthulhudrew on making the Plane of Nightmares and the Spirit Plane into alternate Primes. I feel that they have few of the attributes associated with a Prime Plane (Usually a universe with planets, stars etc) and they have a much stronger connection to Mystara than does for instance LaTerre and Old Alphatia. This is more true for the Spirit World, and perhaps less so for Nightmare, but I think Mystara would benefit from Nightmare having this role. It also fits well with some of my own ideas of Nightmare marking the gateway to the prison planes of the Outer Beings, the Carnifex and Arik, who all tend to arrive on Mystara via the Dimension of Nightmares. Note that I am not bringing in the Plane of Shadows as such, but only stealing some of its attributes and giving them to the Plane of Nightmares.
Although my writeup was unclear on the issue of Outer Planes, I agree on what you wrote there, and that the Core Sphere Planes were not meant to be the only Outer Planes, though as a change from WotI, I suggest that to travel to the home planes of the various immortals, it is easier to pass through these major planes first than to go there directly.
Håvard
Now maybe I do not have a CLEAR idea of what a Transitive Plane is according to 3E, so could you care to explain it a bit better? this way I may understand better your view on the Plane of Nightmares...
As for the Spirit World and the Dreamlands, while we do not have a clue about the world of the fey, so you can surmise everything you want about it, we do know pretty well what the Spirit World looks like. It is very similar to the Prime, with whole continents inhabited by spirits who take the form of animals, humanoids or animal-humanoids crossbreeds. Also we know that these creatures are ruled by higher beings called Spirit Lords, which are similar to immortals of Mystara, although their powers are not tied to any "sphere". Finally, we do not know if there are elemental planes or other planets in the Spirit World.
Could the Spirit world be the same place as the Dreamlands? Uhm... it COULD be, certainly. But the Spirit World has collided with Mystara ONLY since Blackmoor exploded back in BC3000 (go read GAZ12), while fey have been living here since the beginning of times. Does this pose a problem? Or Could we say that the fey wandered through the universe and Mystara for ages before the rift opened and after visiting the Spirit world they decided to establish there their Fairy Court, thus living some time on Mystara and some time on the Spirit World? Intriguing thought...
But this doesn't solve the issue on the nature of the Spirit World, doesn't it? ;) :p
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/planes.htm
Material Plane
The Material Plane tends to be the most Earthlike of all planes and operates under the same set of natural laws that our own real world does. This is the default plane for most adventures.
Transitive Planes
These three planes have one important common characteristic: Each is used to get from one place to another. The Astral Plane is a conduit to all other planes, while the Ethereal Plane and the Plane of Shadow both serve as means of transportation within the Material Plane they’re connected to. These planes have the strongest regular interaction with the Material Plane and are often accessed by using various spells. They have native inhabitants as well.
Inner Planes
These six planes are manifestations of the basic building blocks of the universe. Each is made up of a single type of energy or element that overwhelms all others. The natives of a particular Inner Plane are made of the same energy or element as the plane itself.
Outer Planes
The deities live on the Outer Planes, as do creatures such as celestials, demons, and devils. Each of the Outer Planes has an alignment, representing a particular moral or ethical outlook, and the natives of each plane tend to behave in agreement with that plane’s alignment. The Outer Planes are also the final resting place of souls from the Material Plane, whether that final rest takes the form of calm introspection or eternal damnation.
Demiplanes
This catch-all category covers all extradimensional spaces that function like planes but have measurable size and limited access. Other kinds of planes are theoretically infinite in size, but a demiplane might be only a few hundred feet across.
By those definitions, I think Nightmare works quite well as a transitive plane (a place beings from distant planes can travel through to reach Mystara, and a place that touches both Outer Planes and the Prime, as the Nightmare Dimension did in the Immortals set).
I think Aelos, Old Alphatia, LaTerre, and other similar worlds all qualify more or less as Material Planes - they're essentially Earthlike, with the standard natural laws.
I think the Dreamlands and Spirit World don't qualify as Material Planes, since their laws of nature may differ extremely. Whether or not they're the same place, I think they'd work well as transitive planes coexistent with the Material Plane and perhaps some Outer Planes. It's possible that each Material Plane has its own Dreamlands and Spirit World, or at least its own Spirit World.
Limbo is, by definition, an Outer Plane. Whether or not it exists in the same place as the other Outer Planes is another matter - it could exist pretty much anywhere. It seems like among the Inner Planes opposite the Dreamlands is as good a place as any.
The other Outer Planes are either "Outer Planes" or demiplanes, depending on whether or not immortal beings have colonized them. Although there's something to be said for pocket planes utilized by wizards and so on not being the same kind of thing or even in the same place as the planes the immortals use.
Hmmm...could they still use the Astral? Or the Ethereal?
I don't see why not. 3e's default cosmology changed to have the Astral bordering every plane specifically to allow teleportation and planar travel magic to work using it, but I don't see why you can't say they use the Ethereal where the Ethereal is handy and the Astral where the Astral is handy. Or bring back "hyperspace" for that matter.
Positive 'Energy' would be split into Thought (Positive Thinking? ) Matter, Energy, and Time while Negative Energy comes from the home plane of Entropy....
Traditionally, undead turning and the like manifest as a bright radiance. It might be interesting to have the visual effect vary depending on what Sphere the cleric is using: a cleric or paladin of an immortal of Matter might manifest his "postive energy" as a change in the solid forms around him (perhaps the earth begins to glow in a radius around the cleric), while a cleric of an immortal of Thought might might manifest her power as a change in the mood of the area, or whispers within everyone's mind. A cleric of Time might affect liquids or there might be alterations in the fabric of causality itself, with undead seeming to slow or even move in reverse.
With the understanding that the Prime includes all the Material Planes.
I think I've actually made Limbo a transitive plane, here - it's the plane where souls transition from the Material Plane to the Outer Planes. Apparently you have to travel through the Spirit World to reach it; I didn't realize that was the case until I made the diagram, but it makes sense.
Spirit World, Faerie, the Ethereal, and Nightmare are all transitive planes coterminous and coexistent with the Material Plane, though not with one another. The Elemental Planes are coterminous and coexistant with the Ethereal Plane, and coterminous with the Material Plane through "wormholes" or elemental vortices. The Astral Plane is coterminous with the Ethereal and (many of) the Outer Planes. Some Outer Planes are coterminous only with other Outer Planes.
The Vortex Plane exists outside all the others, though it is coterminous with the Nightmare Plane and/or the Astral.
One thing that apparently wasn't made clear in my original writeup is that I consider the Spirit World and the Dreamlands (Fey Realm) to be one and the same.
I don't recall where the Dreamlands are from. The Dreamlands, IIRC, are just the little pocket plane around the Dreamlands Magic Point in Alfheim, and aren't a whole blown plane/dimension of their own. Unless there are some other Dreamlands that I am not recalling offhand.
In any case, I am also of the mindset that the Fey races originated in the Spirit World (which I have equated- in contrast to canon- with Limbo).
This is why I felt that it along with Limbo in the Mystaran Multiverse would take the place of the Positive and Negative Energy Planes. These planes both deal with the Soul, which often in the occult tradition is seen as the Fifth Element, thus appropriately grouped with the Elemental Planes.
Limbo is canonically described as an Outer Plane, and is supposed to deal with all five elements- IIRC, the soul is connected with Entropy in the Limbo article by Bruce Heard. I'm not positive, but I do know that he addressed the nature of the soul in Mystara (as he saw it) in that article, just FYI.
I disagree with you and Cthulhudrew on making the Plane of Nightmares and the Spirit Plane into alternate Primes. I feel that they have few of the attributes associated with a Prime Plane (Usually a universe with planets, stars etc) and they have a much stronger connection to Mystara than does for instance LaTerre and Old Alphatia.
The bit about Nightmare being an alternate Prime is directly from the Gold Box set, which has the Nightmare Dimension (actually, dimensions) as part of the Prime, just shifted dimensionally from the "Normal" realm. I prefer that take on Nightmare to the "Demiplane of Nightmares" interpretation that snuck into WotI and later sources, so that's why I went with it as an Alternate Prime.
As for it having few attributes associated with the Prime, well, there isn't enough known about it to really say. I've suggested elsewhere that the major planet there is named Terro (from Terror and Terra- Earth), and Guilio Caroletti has also created some planets/planetoids for the realm, but obviously these aren't canon.
Also, and for me this is the primary reason- I don't see a demiplane having quite the same impact as an entire material plane that shares the same space. Even having it as an Inner or Outer (or transitive) plane doesn't quite fit to me. For me, one of the most interesting aspects of it was that this world of Nightmares is where our nightmares and dreams come from. When we go to sleep, our minds are not always bound by the dictates of our waking world, and cross over into the realm we share with these other creatures, these nightmares. I suppose that could still hold true with Nightmare as a different plane, but to me the true horror is that these things are all around us, all the time, only separated by an unviewable barrier- but that occasionally, the barriers separate, and they come into full horror.
I'm probably not describing it very well, but that's my concept of it anyway.
As for the Plane of Shadows/Nightmare- I agree that, in whatever version of Mystaran Cosmology you subscribe to- equating the two somehow seems the most likely solution.
Could the Spirit world be the same place as the Dreamlands? Uhm... it COULD be, certainly. But the Spirit World has collided with Mystara ONLY since Blackmoor exploded back in BC3000 (go read GAZ12), while fey have been living here since the beginning of times. Does this pose a problem? Or Could we say that the fey wandered through the universe and Mystara for ages before the rift opened and after visiting the Spirit world they decided to establish there their Fairy Court, thus living some time on Mystara and some time on the Spirit World? Intriguing thought...
This is kind of my idea on the whole thing- that the Fey races we know now (Sidhe, Leprechauns, etc.) were originally Spirit races, but they long ago crossed over the Material Plane, and have now bred into the Fey races. They are distant relatives of the Spirits, then.
By those definitions, I think Nightmare works quite well as a transitive plane (a place beings from distant planes can travel through to reach Mystara, and a place that touches both Outer Planes and the Prime, as the Nightmare Dimension did in the Immortals set).
That is sort of how I feel too. I agree with Cthulhudrew that making it a Demiplane as in the AD&D2 version was a mistake, but turning it into a transitive plane seems to capture much of the original concept of the Dimension of Nightmare IMHO.
I think Aelos, Old Alphatia, LaTerre, and other similar worlds all qualify more or less as Material Planes - they're essentially Earthlike, with the standard natural laws.
Yes, there are also quite a few others like these mentioned in various sources. Basically I'd keep them as worlds who are basically alternate Earths or Alternate Mystaras or whatever
I think the Dreamlands and Spirit World don't qualify as Material Planes, since their laws of nature may differ extremely. Whether or not they're the same place, I think they'd work well as transitive planes coexistent with the Material Plane and perhaps some Outer Planes. It's possible that each Material Plane has its own Dreamlands and Spirit World, or at least its own Spirit World.
This fits with my vision of these worlds as well. While I could have made them into transitive planes also, I feel that we are risking ending up with too many transitive planes, which sort of destroys the concept and usefulness of each of them. Ofcourse, there is also the possibility that the Dreamlands and the Spirit World are actually simply other names for the Ethereal Plane....
Limbo is, by definition, an Outer Plane. Whether or not it exists in the same place as the other Outer Planes is another matter - it could exist pretty much anywhere. It seems like among the Inner Planes opposite the Dreamlands is as good a place as any.
It was described as such by Bruce and there is ofcourse a 3E Plane named Limbo that is an outer plane, but the way it was detailed by Bruce indicates that it is sort of a transit plane for souls on their way to the (Outer) plane where they will spend eternity. As such, Cthulhudrew's idea of having Limbo and the Spirit World the same makes sense, but in that case I'd hesitate bringing in the Fey Realm in there as well...
Astral vs Ethereal for spells like Teleport:
I don't see why not. 3e's default cosmology changed to have the Astral bordering every plane specifically to allow teleportation and planar travel magic to work using it, but I don't see why you can't say they use the Ethereal where the Ethereal is handy and the Astral where the Astral is handy. Or bring back "hyperspace" for that matter.
Either that, or we could just go with the 3e version of having the Astral connected to all planes. The separation of the Astral from the Prime Material was never a concept from OD&D that I felt strongly about unlike what we end up doing with Nightmare which is probably the most interesting Mystaran realm...
Traditionally, undead turning and the like manifest as a bright radiance. It might be interesting to have the visual effect vary depending on what Sphere the cleric is using: a cleric or paladin of an immortal of Matter might manifest his "postive energy" as a change in the solid forms around him (perhaps the earth begins to glow in a radius around the cleric), while a cleric of an immortal of Thought might might manifest her power as a change in the mood of the area, or whispers within everyone's mind. A cleric of Time might affect liquids or there might be alterations in the fabric of causality itself, with undead seeming to slow or even move in reverse.
Cool ideas!
Håvard
Something like this, I think:
Oops, didnt read this post closely enough before responding above. I like this version alot actually, where as you say both Limbo and the Spirit World become transtive planes.
Håvard
In my opinion, it fits in quite nicely. Chronomancers become one of the five related specialist schools related to the spheres; kind of like elementalists, but dealing with spheres rather than elements.
It follows that as Temporal Prime is to Chronomancers, the other sphere magicians (Materialists, Mentalists, Navitists (energy magicians) and Entropists) have relating planes, accessible via various means.
Such planes, such subtexts within Prime and all other planes, are accessible by immortals and by certain other creatures. Spirit-land is a name given to Material Prime by some people, and dreamland is a name given by some to Sentience Prime. Oh, and Limbo is the term that many use to refer to Primal Death. Oddly, as the place that many creatures pass through between their own worlds and oblivion, it is by far the most densely populated of the primal planes.
Some creatures have a presence on a primal plane and other planes simultaneously; immortals can always perceive their own primal plane simultaneoulsy with any other plane they are on, and energy draining undead have a presence on Primal Death; that's what makes an energy drainer, and that's how such undead can cause those they have slain to come back from Primal Death to the prime as undead themselves.
Travel to and from these planes is, to say the least, difficult for most creatures. No mortal level gate or travel spells can reach them, highly specialised magics are needed.
Let me know what you guys think; I know that this is quite a stretch from canon sources, but for me it ties off loose ends nicely.
Have any of you tried also to layer the information from Chronomancer (2nd ed product introducing the craft of chronomancy) into a Mystaran campaign?
Herve Musseau did a really interesting writeup that expanded on Roger Moore's Chronomancy and the Multiverse article. It can be read at the Vaults here.
Herve Musseau did a really interesting writeup that expanded on Roger Moore's Chronomancy and the Multiverse article. It can be read at the Vaults here.
That's a really nice write up.
I tend towards temporal prime being only one of the five sphere primes; the implication of this is that time is only one direction in which travel is possible, immortals should also be capable of travelling through energy, thought, matter and even entropy.