Notes: Selhomarr is created by Geoff Gander. Bahlor is created by James Mishler. The location of Blackmoor, Skandahar, the Afridhi and the Wilderlands in the Hollow World is not official. All other cultures are taken from official HW material. Oostdok and Ashmorain are the only official HW cultures that have not been included as they exist on the floating continents. The Merry Pirate Isles have been renamed the Pirate Isles as IMC at least, the name Merry Pirates is only something they use about themselves.
Håvard
This is the Valley featured in the Mystara Arcade Game named Warriors of the Eternal Sun. The valley is probably located somewhere between the lands of the Shattenalfen, the Malpheggi and the Oltecs since all of these cultures have a presence in the area. There are a few references to this game in Thunder Rift, and I have been working to strengthen this connection in the Thunder Rift Thread.
Let me know what you think!
Håvard
PS: There are a couple of flaws on this map. I will post an updated version as soon as I get it fixed. The main thing to be changed is that Barriktown should be renamed Barrik Castle. Also, a few cosmetic changes are in order.
Did you notice that? ;) :PHåvard
Also, the map shows that Shahjapur lay on an East/West axis, which wouldn't fit with it being on Jomphur.
You can throw stones at me starting from now then (I've specifically lowered my protection from normal missiles for the following 10 minutes) :P
You can throw stones at me starting from now then (I've specifically lowered my protection from normal missiles for the following 10 minutes) :P
Damn, too late!
:heehee Regards
Gary
Sorry then, I made a blunder!
You can throw stones at me starting from now then (I've specifically lowered my protection from normal missiles for the following 10 minutes) :P
To quote Monty Phyton.....
Stone 'em! Stone 'em! :D :D :D
--Ray.
What do you think of my locations for Bahlor, Blackmoor, Selhomarr and the other non canon civilizations?
Are there other non canon ones that should be included as well?
Håvard
Is Shahjapur the correct way to spell it?
According to HWA3 it is.
(As an aside, let me just take a moment to say how disheartened I am that the wonderful work on Shahjapur/Sind was basically ignored when Champions of Mystara came out. In just a few pages, Allen Varney created a wonderful landscape of this mysterious kingdom, and its relationship/origins in the Outer World, all of which was basically tossed aside with a few contradictory entries in CoM, as well as a big "Immortals altered everyone's memories so that they think it was this way when they put them in the Hollow World" in one of the PWAs. So sad. Personally, I think the Shahjapur version of Sind is somewhat more compelling than the CoM version. In any case, I don't see why they couldn't simply have made a portion of Sind more like Shahjapur- something akin to how a couple of the Savage Coast nations have the same RW base origin, but at different historical time periods, existing in the same location. Even the history of Sind and Shahjapur are different- and since that section is DM information in HWA3, the whole "Immortal mind-altering" explanation really doesn't make a lot of sense.
Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.)
What do you think of my locations for Bahlor, Blackmoor, Selhomarr and the other non canon civilizations?
Selhomarr seems to be right where Geoff's maps had it- maybe slightly to the right (it seems to cover more of the peninsula than the bay itself).
James Mishler's description of Bahlor would seem to put it closer to the peninsula that juts out into the Gulf of Bahl, just above the Lothar Strait. So just slightly NW of where you have the label at the moment.
As for Blackmoor, I think Jomphur is a suitable place to put it, though I might suggest a couple of changes. The Afridhi were originally a mountain dwelling people (they lived in the Goblin Kush mountains), so their lands might better be located more around the equator, which on Jomphur are highly mountainous. Of course, they invaded the lowlands, so they wouldn't strictly be confined there. It would seem to me that the original "non-invasion" culture (which was quickly changing as they marched) would be the one that the Immortals would most want preserved.
I might even move Blackmoor over closer to Shahjapur, possibly, in that mixed mountain/plains region around the river (on the HW map). It might seem a strange suggestion, but remember that East and West are reversed directions in the HW, and Blackmoor in the Outer World had several mountain ranges near and around it. The Skandaharians might inhabit some islands, then, in the Anathy Archipelago, and be considered to be a part of the "larger" group of the "Merry Pirates".
In any case, that's a beautiful map that you've made. What program did you use to make it?
Are there other non canon ones that should be included as well?
Good question- I can't think of any offhand, though surely we've made up some different HW cultures over the years on the list and board? There's Alphatian Neatharum, but other than that I'm drawing blanks.
What do you think of my locations for Bahlor, Blackmoor, Selhomarr and the other non canon civilizations?
The only thing I might do for Selhomarr is move the title a little bit to the right. Andrew's right in that much of the population lives on the Tylierian Peninsula (and to a lesser extent the southern shore of the Bay of Lokam). The northern shore is sparsely settled by comparison, and has more of a frontier feel.
Geoff
I asked this on an earlier occasion, but you seem to have overlooked it. ;)
Are those Wilderlands the JG Wilderlands or some other Mystaran-genuine land?
Hi Havard,
I asked this on an earlier occasion, but you seem to have overlooked it. ;)
Are those Wilderlands the JG Wilderlands or some other Mystaran-genuine land?
Hi Ivid! I meant to answer that, but I guess I forgot :embarrass
Anyways, yes, they are the JG Wilderlands, or at least could be. IMC, the Wilderlands existed southwest of Blackmoor on Skothar, and were later relocated in the Hollow World by Khoronus (or perhaps earlier, given his weird time travelling perspective).
The same thing happened to Dark Age Blackmoor, though he was unable to save High Tech Blackmoor because doing so would have altered the course of history. (There is still the possibility of a cloned version, or variants of High Tech Blackmoor as suggested by someone (ripvanwormer?) elsewhere.
Håvard
(As an aside, let me just take a moment to say how disheartened I am that the wonderful work on Shahjapur/Sind was basically ignored when Champions of Mystara came out. In just a few pages, Allen Varney created a wonderful landscape of this mysterious kingdom, and its relationship/origins in the Outer World, all of which was basically tossed aside with a few contradictory entries in CoM, as well as a big "Immortals altered everyone's memories so that they think it was this way when they put them in the Hollow World" in one of the PWAs. So sad. Personally, I think the Shahjapur version of Sind is somewhat more compelling than the CoM version. In any case, I don't see why they couldn't simply have made a portion of Sind more like Shahjapur- something akin to how a couple of the Savage Coast nations have the same RW base origin, but at different historical time periods, existing in the same location. Even the history of Sind and Shahjapur are different- and since that section is DM information in HWA3, the whole "Immortal mind-altering" explanation really doesn't make a lot of sense.
I'll have to reread HWA3 for the details, but in general I dont like Immortal mind-altering effects. Even in the case of Nithia I consider that a truth with modifications. And you are right, it makes little sense not to take advantage of the material that was already written about Shahjapur. I assume the PWA comments were added as an attempted fix of the contradicitons.
Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.)
Ok
Selhomarr seems to be right where Geoff's maps had it- maybe slightly to the right (it seems to cover more of the peninsula than the bay itself).
James Mishler's description of Bahlor would seem to put it closer to the peninsula that juts out into the Gulf of Bahl, just above the Lothar Strait. So just slightly NW of where you have the label at the moment.
Thanks! I will try to fix them according to your and Geoff's comments!
As for Blackmoor, I think Jomphur is a suitable place to put it, though I might suggest a couple of changes. The Afridhi were originally a mountain dwelling people (they lived in the Goblin Kush mountains), so their lands might better be located more around the equator, which on Jomphur are highly mountainous. Of course, they invaded the lowlands, so they wouldn't strictly be confined there. It would seem to me that the original "non-invasion" culture (which was quickly changing as they marched) would be the one that the Immortals would most want preserved.
Hmmm. Good point. Moving the Afridi's original homeland around does not present much of a problem. It might even make things easier.
I might even move Blackmoor over closer to Shahjapur, possibly, in that mixed mountain/plains region around the river (on the HW map). It might seem a strange suggestion, but remember that East and West are reversed directions in the HW, and Blackmoor in the Outer World had several mountain ranges near and around it. The Skandaharians might inhabit some islands, then, in the Anathy Archipelago, and be considered to be a part of the "larger" group of the "Merry Pirates".
My main reason for keeping it where it is now is that it would allow us to use the same map. Ofcourse, we could reverse it (East -West) as you suggest and still keep the map. And, I sorta like the idea of a mixing of the Skandaharians and the Merry Pirates.
In any case, that's a beautiful map that you've made. What program did you use to make it?
Thanks!
The map was made in Photoshop. I have a few more in the same style of the Outer World in various Time periods as well as one of LaTerre, though they need a few finishing touches before I can post them.Good question- I can't think of any offhand, though surely we've made up some different HW cultures over the years on the list and board? There's Alphatian Neatharum, but other than that I'm drawing blanks.
Hmmm, yes, I suppose I should make an AC1010 version with Alphatian Neatharum included. Also, I will mark the location of the Valley of the Eternal Sun (Or Barrik's Valley).
I am also thinking about having Grunland and Evergrun included perhaps found on the southern part of Suridal or the southwestern (bottom left!) part of Iciria.
And whatabout the original kingdom of Aengmor? Shouldnt that be included somewhere?
If anyone comes up with more HW cultures, let me know!
Håvard
If anyone comes up with more HW cultures, let me know!
Some suggestions:
- Varellyans (people not involved in the curse of nagpas)
- The people of the merchantile "empire" of Vacros from "Maze of the riddling minotaur" solo adventure
- Aryptians (?) (the people who built the crystal pyramids described in PC2 - if they are a dead culture)
- Cestians (before Synn's invasion of the island)
- Pre-cataclysmic Ethengarian culture (people who lived "on the fringe of Blackmoor civilization" and was forced to migrate - assuming a nomadic lifestyle - escaping the frozening of the land during the Planetshift. I suppose that also Djaea Neathar tribe belonged to this group)
- Yanifey people
- "Civilized" tortles of the Savage Coast
- Elves and Oltecs of the Savage Coast (mostly wiped out by goblinoid invasion of 1700BC)
- Kopru belonging to the Kopru Empire in the Thanegiot archipelago
- "Ocean" and "desert" subraces of lizardmen (see HW wandering monsters tables, entry for ocean and sea; by the way, these two races, along with "swamp" lizardmen and shark-kins hints about a "Serpentine" civilization)
- Lizardmen of the "Alasyian" civilization (see GAZ2: these lizardmen should belong to a pre-Cataclysmic culture of 5000BC destroyed by impending glaciers; some of its most powerful members "hybernated" in some underground crypts, awaiting for better climate conditions)
- Earth-dwelling shark kin (they reverted to the sea during the Great Rain of Fire; before this events this race used to live on the islands)
And last, but not least, we should include also the Tangor "insular" civilization described in this passage of "Kingdom of Nithia" (in the "history" section of the module):
"Nithian adventurers began to explore the world—including the fell lands of Blackmoor—and return with the spoils and artifacts of their exploration.
During this period, Nithia discovered the insular Tangor civilization, which apparently survived the Blackmoor and Glantri disasters intact." (after this, the description continues speaking about the arrival of the Alphatians on Mystara)
Given the fact that, as for 1000AC, there is no more a Tangor archipelago (which instead is clearly visible in the HW Pre-Cataclysmic map) we must suppose that these islands were disrupted - and substituted by modern Tangor Chain - by volcanic events sometime between 1500BC and 1000-500BC (and not during the Cataclysm), posing an end to this Tanagoro seafaring culture.
Notice that this culture is NOT the one described in the HW "Tanagoro" entry, because its destruction is, by far, successive.
By the way, the Tanagoro migrations of 2000BC, 1600BC, 1500BC showed in HW migrations map should be organized by this insular Tangor civilization. I suppose that also the Pearl Islands colonization of 1000BC is related to this culure (maybe in order to have a better trading post with Nithians, or, maybe the Tanagoro/Nuari colonists are refugees from the geological disaster of their archipelago), and also the colonization of the Serpent Peninsula of 2200BC should have something to do with this population.
Hope this helps...
A few comments:
The Proto-Ethengars most people seem to identify with the Peshwa (See DA1).
As for the Land-dwelling Shark-kin, would they have anything to do with Bulettes (land-sharks)?
Håvard
Hi Ivid! I meant to answer that, but I guess I forgot :embarrass
Anyways, yes, they are the JG Wilderlands, or at least could be. IMC, the Wilderlands existed southwest of Blackmoor on Skothar, and were later relocated in the Hollow World by Khoronus (or perhaps earlier, given his weird time travelling perspective).
The same thing happened to Dark Age Blackmoor, though he was unable to save High Tech Blackmoor because doing so would have altered the course of history. (There is still the possibility of a cloned version, or variants of High Tech Blackmoor as suggested by someone (ripvanwormer?) elsewhere.
Håvard
Thank you! Maybe I can help you with a more in-detail map on this when we see the *supposedly definitive* version of the FFC by ZG. But how many versions of BM exist now on Mystara? Two? Three?
Rafee
A few comments:
The Proto-Ethengars most people seem to identify with the Peshwa (See DA1).
I knew this hypotesis, but I think it should be discarded. Here is why.
We know that Ethengarians are a mixed Oltec/Neathar race, with Oltec contribution coming from ancient "Imperial" Oltecs and Azcans refugees after the GRoF. See, for exmple, this fragment of "Sons of Azca":
"Many Oltecs and Azcans had already forsaken their old ways and migrated
or adapted to the new conditions: these were the ancestors of the
Atruaghin Clans and the Ethengars."
As regards the Neathar contribution, we clearly see a migration in the HW migration map coming from the springs of river Borea (just north of the Black Mountains) and ending in the Ethengar steppes in BC2000. This migration is showed in detail also in the "local migration map".
So, the ancient Ethengarians are a Neathar race, which become "mixed" in the steppes only in 2000BC, thanks to an Oltec/Azcan contributions. So the ancient Ethengarians couldn't be the Peshwah.
That's also why I associate ancient Ethengarians with the same Neathar tirbe of the Immortal Djaea: also this tribe lived on the border of Blackmoor civilization, trading with the Blackmoorians.
If anyone comes up with more HW cultures, let me know!
Here is another one (the anciant Alatians), basing on an answer Heard gave to a Dragon's reader ages ago:
Who are the ancestors of the Sindians, the Yannifey, and the Alatians?
Sindians, like Ethengarians and the people of Atruaghin, all are related to some degree to the ancient Oltecs. The Alatians were Neathar. Of course, the original Alatians were deported when the Alphatians took over their lands. The Alatians were probably sent to populate and develop the Yannivey Islands and Qeodhar. True Alatians are probably extinct by now. As for the Yannifey, they form a mixed race of all the people who ended up in these cold islands, including Alphatians, Antalians, Neathar, and who knows what else.
Of course, a group of true Alatians should have been transported by the Immortals to the Hollow World before its extinction...
By the way, this brutal Alphatian aggression on the Alatians should concern only the three easternmost islands (Gaity and the two Never-do-Well), because the other two (Aegos and Aeria) clearly show names of Thothian/Nithian descent on the DotE Isle of Dawn detailed map. So we should think these two islands were colonized by Thothians sometime before 500BC and later absorbed (more or less peacefully) by the Alphatians.
Gaity and Never-do-Well surely are not Thothian colonies, because we know that Thothia itself was the easternmost colony of Nithia, and these two islands are situated east of it. So the Alphatian aggression and deportation may be confined to these islands, populated with the original "true Alatians" stock.
So, the ancient Ethengarians are a Neathar race, which become "mixed" in the steppes only in 2000BC, thanks to an Oltec/Azcan contributions. So the ancient Ethengarians couldn't be the Peshwah.
What race were the Peshwa? Could they have been Neathar?
What race were the Peshwa? Could they have been Neathar?
This page claims they were. If that's the case, the people of Ethengar could be mixed Peshwah (Neathar) and Oltec.
IMVHO Peshwah may be Neathar tribes of Skothar who later got mixed with Oltecs who arrived in that part of Skothar in BC 3100, shortly before the GRoF. Some of these Oltecs dwelt on the coasts while another group became more nomadic and roamed inland. These may have had contacts with the Peshwah and learnt their lifestyle, mixing their bloodlines. After Blackmoor's annihilation, the Peshwah and Oltecs were so few and far between that had to work closely together for survival. From their union arose the new Jennite stock.
The Oltecs of the coast otoh kept more of their ancient traditions, and later got conquered by the Jennites or ended up building city-states in modern Minaea (which according to the PWA hosts not only descendants of the Milenians but also descendants of the Tanagoro and Oltecs!) or sailed westwards and settled in the plains and hills of Bellissaria (which were completely free at that time).
Just a quick note to remind you also that the people of Arypt are called Katapecs in PC2, and seem to have built mysterious Crystal Pyramids. IMHO they are either descendants of another Oltec offshot, or of Oltec-Nithian stock (maybe Nithian settlers from the Hinterlands who lost contact with that colony and ended up living independently in this part of Davania)... The Manacapuru may have something to reveal about the ancient Katapec people. Remember they're copper-skinned men worshipping snakelike immortals according to PWA2: copper-skinned points towards Oltecs and Azcans, who likewise honor snakelike immortals (Ka as Amber Serpent, Atzanteotl as Winged Viper, Atruaghin as Feathered Serpent). The fact the Manacapuru have a city of their own (see PWA2 map) and use poisons may point to a branch of Oltecs worshipping Atzanteotl and likely Bachraeus (who IMO is also patron of snakes and medusas and known as Set in ancient Nithia). ;)
Btw, great list Zompatore, you've got a keen eye!
Just a quick note to remind you also that the people of Arypt are called Katapecs in PC2, and seem to have built mysterious Crystal Pyramids. IMHO they are either descendants of another Oltec offshot, or of Oltec-Nithian stock (maybe Nithian settlers from the Hinterlands who lost contact with that colony and ended up living independently in this part of Davania)... The Manacapuru may have something to reveal about the ancient Katapec people. Remember they're copper-skinned men worshipping snakelike immortals according to PWA2: copper-skinned points towards Oltecs and Azcans, who likewise honor snakelike immortals (Ka as Amber Serpent, Atzanteotl as Winged Viper, Atruaghin as Feathered Serpent). The fact the Manacapuru have a city of their own (see PWA2 map) and use poisons may point to a branch of Oltecs worshipping Atzanteotl and likely Bachraeus (who IMO is also patron of snakes and medusas and known as Set in ancient Nithia). ;)
Also, from the description of the people of the coast of Davania in Dragon magazine #153, the Manacapuru seem to be yuan-ti, or have similar qualities (Haldemar describes their shamans as having serpent-like features).
Has anyone done a Map at 8-mile Hex of An assumed Black lore Valley? Realy interested in the Blacklore elves for the Hollow World.
No, but I would also like to see something like that. Are you currently using the Blacklore in your campaign? I've had quite a few ideas about this civilization recently, as well as their (non-canon) neighbouring Valley of the Automatons and its capital; The City of Steel.
Also, when talking about new Hollow World civilizations, we should add the one John Biles suggested in another thread:
The Magocracy of Braejr (land of the Flaemish)
The land of Braejr is located directly below Glantri. It is a preservation of the original Flaemish civilization that was living in the region which is now Glantri. The country's geography and borders are similar to modern day Glantri, but the capital is renamed Braejr, and only the Flaemish settlements exist. It is a country ruled by Flaemish Alphatian wizards. Due to their relatively close proximity to Glantri, and a unique anomaly in the world shield directly below it, the mages of Braejr have been able to access the Radience and a second Brotherhood of the Radience exists here, unknown to the mages of Glantri. Its members are relatively few, so their use of the artifact has not yet had a significant impact on the magic drain caused by the Nucleus of the Spheres. A small Gnomish community can also be found in the northeastern part of the country.
Hmmm: BTW, I'm wondering of Braejr is actually just the name of the capital and that the country, according to the Dragonlord Trilogy was actually just called the Highlands. Can anyone verify this? The Magocracy of the Highlands doesn't sound too good though, but its also annoying that we get yet another civilization whose name is identical to its capital....
Thoughts on any of this?
Håvard
Here you will find many descriptions about someone Baron Elktazar, his family, his court and some of his neighbours (including a certain mage/witch named Maerklara). They all lived in Glantri sometime between 500AC and 700AC.
The uncertainity about the date comes from the fact that is not very clear when CM8 module is set.
Given the presence of some clerical orders in Glantri, we (in the Italian Mystara Board) thought that CM8 should be played between Lord Glantri's proclamation of Glantri's Republic and the coup of mages (who declared clerical magic illegal in the whole land) about 50 years later, even if a temporal collocation around 1000AC may also be possible.
Anyway, CM8 says that Elktazar and the others lived 300 years in the past so, independently from the right temporal location of CM8, they are undoubtely Flaemish people/nobles.
We also tried to locate old Lord Elktazar's domain on the map. The CM8 says that the ruins of his castle are located near a major road at at least 4 days of travel (by horse) from Glantri City, still remaining inside Glantr's border.
Considering the average speed of horse travel on a good road stated in Rules Cyclopedia (24 miles a day) we found that there are just two roads in Glantri matching these requests: one goes NW towards Nouvelle Averoigne, but we discarded it because this area was still unsettled at the time.
The other road goes north towards the Wendarian Range. Here we located the old barony, somewhere north of the actual Flaemish land. Another confirmations of a Flaemish origin for these NPCs.
By the way, if you read the summaries of the books situated in the building at the top of the Endless Stair you will have also some other interesting references about Glantri's past, such as a mysterious "Battle of the Six Kings"
we weren't still able to locate correctly.
From the informations given in CM8 we suppose that ancient Glantri (i.e when the Flaemish ruled the land) didn't have a central government, but it was unstead divided in many petty baronies, fighting each other for the preminence in this land. Most important of all, it seems that also non-mages might ascend to ruling positions (such as Baron Elktazar himsef, who seems to be a fighter).
Hope this post will help you in better defining your interesting HW domain ;)
Others are welcome to help out!
Håvard
While admittedly I have never liked the whole Hollow World concept, these maps are very nice. I look forward to seeing any more that you might choose to make.
Gordon
Havard,
While admittedly I have never liked the whole Hollow World concept, these maps are very nice. I look forward to seeing any more that you might choose to make.
Gordon
Thanks Gordon!
I have several more in the works, but sadly there hasn't been too much time to complete them.
I'll get around as posting them as soon as they are finished though!
Håvard
I also went with the Nouvelle Averoigne direction as the "four days' ride" and placed the ruins of Baron Elktazar's home in the forested and hilly area directly northeast of Castle Sylaire (and just below the map of Morlay-Malinbois from PC4). The area was populated c.728 AC (when the d'Ambrevilles first arrived), which fits with the idea of Baron Elktazar existing approximately 300 years in Glantri's past.
Also, the hero cults (which one of the NPC protagonists in the module is a member of) are still outlawed, but may be found in isolated areas of the nation (and other nations), which the largely still unexplored realms around Morlay-Malinbois and northern Nouvelle Averoigne would probably consist of, IMO. Just another take on the CM8 module from me.
Also, from the description of the people of the coast of Davania in Dragon magazine #153, the Manacapuru seem to be yuan-ti, or have similar qualities (Haldemar describes their shamans as having serpent-like features).
Bruce mentions at least THREE communities that seem to be copper-skinned and wield poisonous weapons, and only ONE actually in the region labeled as Manacapuru tribal lands by the PWA2. So there are prolly other tribes in the Jungle Coast who honor snakelike immortals (even south of the Yasuko, according to VotPA)...
As for the nature of these natives, here's a quote from that issue of Dragon magazine:
"Sudmir 3, 1965: Terrible, those natives. We came close to a large town deep in the rain forest. Smoke from their fires could be seen from miles away. Thousands of huts sprawled across a clearing in the forest, with several stone buildings placed near the clearing's center. We spotted what seemed to be a temple of some sort. Upon our descent, it was observed that the natives were of a much smaller build than the Hinterlanders. Tattoos covered their copper skin, and most of them had long, black hair tied in the back. The natives immediately attacked our vessel, using poison needles and blowguns against our exposed crewmen when we came within range. The gray substance on the needles was deadly, and we lost two men. Magic from their barbaric sorcerers cracked and thundered, but the Princess Ark withstood the crude spell-strikes. As we sailed away, we spotted some of their shamans—or so we assumed those monstrosities to be, as they all had various snakelike features. Alas, we did not remain to study this culture any further. We will return at a later time to deal with these natives in a more fitting way."
It seems that only the shamans had "various snakelike features"... IMHO they could be yuan-ti, or medusa-halfbloods or even half-dragons
For my part, I set the era of Baron Elktazar during the 40 Year's War, and substituted the War of Six Kings for that war (there were several rulers of the land at the time- the King of Braejr, the ruler of the elves, the ruler of the Thyatians, the Boldavians/Traladarans, the Klantyre, the Averoignese- it wouldn't be too hard to find six "kings" in all of that lot.)
I also went with the Nouvelle Averoigne direction as the "four days' ride" and placed the ruins of Baron Elktazar's home in the forested and hilly area directly northeast of Castle Sylaire (and just below the map of Morlay-Malinbois from PC4). The area was populated c.728 AC (when the d'Ambrevilles first arrived), which fits with the idea of Baron Elktazar existing approximately 300 years in Glantri's past.
Also, the hero cults (which one of the NPC protagonists in the module is a member of) are still outlawed, but may be found in isolated areas of the nation (and other nations), which the largely still unexplored realms around Morlay-Malinbois and northern Nouvelle Averoigne would probably consist of, IMO. Just another take on the CM8 module from me.
For the Flaemish realm (now renamed The Magocracy of the Flaemish Highlands), I will probably be basing myself on the Highlands (Historical Glantri) as they appeared the Dragonlord Novels. These were set around 490 AC, so most of the information from CM8 will probably not apply yet, though I will look into it for some more details on Flaemish culture.
That doesnt mean CM8 is not interesting in itself though. I've enjoyed reading both Zompatore and Cthulhudrew's ideas. They definately expand on Glantri's history.
I wonder what those Hero Cults are. Has anyone developed them further? I suppose any Immortal could be considered a Hero Patron too, but are they indeed worshipping Immortals or are there some lesser beings involved in this religion (Spirits, Exalted beings etc?).
Håvard
There was a thread some time ago on the MML about the Cyndiceans (which I started) asking their origins and original culture. I think the most we got out of that was a generalized agreement that they were most likely a Nithian colony...
A second possiblilty is that they were Oltec descendants, with no direct ties to the nithians, except they were neighbors....
Irregardless, why are they not in the HW? has everyone forgotten them? or has the events of B4 (with the help of Gorm, Madura, etc) led to a re-surfacing? Is there going to be a new KoC arising, carving their borders out of the western half of Ylaruam?
It seems that only the shamans had "various snakelike features"... IMHO they could be yuan-ti, or medusa-halfbloods or even half-dragons
The others (the non-shamans) could conceivably have been yuan-ti purebloods, whose snakelike features wouldn't have been visible from a distance.
I wonder what those Hero Cults are. Has anyone developed them further? I suppose any Immortal could be considered a Hero Patron too, but are they indeed worshipping Immortals or are there some lesser beings involved in this religion (Spirits, Exalted beings etc?).
I always meant to expand on them further, but never got around to formalizing my thoughts in writing, and now I don't remember all the ideas I'd had for them, sadly.
I do seem to recall that the Cult of Elktazar in Glantri is not the only such cult to appear in Mystara products, though I can't recall what other sorts of cults there were offhand...
From memory, there is the Cult of Halav (which sort of qualifies, though Halav is also an Immortal, because he may or may not actually be the patron of the Cult). The Cult of Balthac (from WotI) would be one, too-though it's patron is really Hel.
I was originally, IIRC, thinking along the lines of these Cults actually gaining their powers from belief in these heroes, and not from the Immortals. The fact that the clerics of these cults are able to receive power from non-Immortal sources, of course, would be very intriguing to Immortals, who would want to know where their true source of power comes from (Halav, in regards to the Cult of Halav), or exploit that knowledge for their own gain (Hel, in regards to the Cult of Balthac- she can pull off the deceit because it is no mystery that some of these Hero cults are able to get divine powers).
Irregardless, why are they not in the HW? has everyone forgotten them? or has the events of B4 (with the help of Gorm, Madura, etc) led to a re-surfacing? Is there going to be a new KoC arising, carving their borders out of the western half of Ylaruam?
My own thought on the matter is that their immortal patrons may have decided they'd rather risk destruction in the hope of recovery and growth than freeze them in amber in the Hollow World.