Now I will be able to really get into Borys and stat him out for all of you power gamers out there who would like to take on the Dragon. :D
Between this, seeing Goblet of Fire in a few minutes, and hoping like hell the Colts beat the Bengals and stay undefeated, my day is almost perfect!
It's the little things in life...
Or those of us that just want him stated so we can throw him at the PCs and watch them wet their pants.
I hope to do him justice- 70 some levels and multiple classes make it interesting to do but I think the end product will be really cool.
70-80 is where I have him in my mind as well.
I'm sure you will do a good job.
The Champion of Rajaat template will be released today. Flip will post it on Athas.org later today and post here on the boards when he has done so.
ahem....I'm waiting.
:P
70-80 is where I have him in my mind as well.
I'm sure you will do a good job.
Why? In 2nd ed he was level 30. Seems with the epic rulebook everyone has and idea to add 20-30 levels. Athas is a low magic world. Rajaat himself should probably be around level 40.
sorry, just impatient
besides, i'm in korea, and i'm not exactly sure what part of the world's "today" that was referring to.
Why? In 2nd ed he was level 30. Seems with the epic rulebook everyone has and idea to add 20-30 levels. Athas is a low magic world. Rajaat himself should probably be around level 40.
Umm, because of what squidfur says:
keep in mind, that in 2nd ed., to become a 21st level dragon, you had to be a 20th level wizard AND a 20th level psionicist. That's 40 levels already. Add the 10 levels for advancing as a dragon, and you'd have 50 class levels.
Now, I'll go ahead and state, that the technical conversion from 2E -> 3E does say that for dual or multi-classed characters, you take the full levels from the first (primary) class, and then only 1/3 of the levels from each successive class -- so this means let's say Borys was level 20 Wizard, 20 Psionicist, and 10 Dragon. He'd be a 20 Wizard, 6 Psionicist, and 3 Dragon, which comes to 29 total levels - on a strict conversion.
However, we can't quite do a strict conversion level wise on this. Now let's look at the Dragon rules from 3.5e from Athas.org -- 18 level Wizard, and 11 level Psion, plus let's say 10 levels of Dragon would make him level 39. And that's basically saying that he's done diddly squat for 2000 years, and has basically gotten nothing for XP. So, let's be a bit more realistic (after all, didn't he kill Kalid-Ma? Hasn't he been killing tends of thousands of people each year? Not exactly what I'd call sitting on his thumbs).
Plus, the wizard & psion configuration is under the impression that Borys took the most efficient route to Dragonhood -- which considering he didn't even know it existed until later in life, would make less sense. I personally tend to think that he was a Psychic Warrior and not a Psion, so... why not 18 levels Wizard, 17 levels Psychic Warrior, and 10 levels of Dragon -- that's now 45. Tack on an additional 5 levels for the last 2,000 years of experience, and voila, we have level 50.
And I'd say that level 50 is a modest number.
I'd say that making Rajaat level 40 would be unrealistic. Personally, I'm of the belief to not classify Rajaat with a level -- he falls into the category of"if your adventuring party goes up against him, you are all dead" category.
keep in mind, that in 2nd ed., to become a 21st level dragon, you had to be a 20th level wizard AND a 20th level psionicist. That's 40 levels already. Add the 10 levels for advancing as a dragon, and you'd have 50 class levels.
Not really because of the way xp worked in 2nd ed. With XYZ amount of xp you could have a 13th level wizard for example or a 8Fighter/10Thief/12th wizard. The dual class rules never worked very well in 2nd ed and were easily abusable. No one would claim the 8/10/12 character was level 32. A normal wiz/psion/cerebmancer in 3.5 can effectively make level 20/20 by level 30.
Not sure if you realise how much power a level 40 wizard has. If Rajaat for example was this level there very little he can't do or achieve. Even in FR a high magic world theres only 2 level 40+ characters in its entire history and they done similar things to Rajaat- floated mountains, created a desert etc.
Seems with the epic rulebook everyone has and idea to add 20-30 levels. Athas is a low magic world. Rajaat himself should probably be around level 40.
You are in the minority on this point: many people don't want Rajaat stated at all, while most of the rest want him 100+ levels, trully epic (as per that definition in the ELH).
Most people have updated their concepts to accomodate the ELH, which apparently you don't want to, or wouldn't like to have to do.
The minimum level for a beginner dragon is Wizard 17/Psion 11/Dragon 1, for 29 levels, already 9 epic levels in there, and that's a fast-track progression, no rest stop along the way for other classes or PrCs, not counting any LA from templates it might have acquired along the way.
The Champions of Rajaat will have, in addition to the levels I listed above, 2,000+ years of accumulated levels and templates. So for all instances and purposes they are swimming in the deep waters of the ELH. Since it took most if not all of their numbers to bring Rajaat down, a calculation can be made to determine what level Rajaat needs to be so he can't be brought down by anything less than the combined numbers of his Champions.
This is an old argument.
I only keep coming back to this thread because i want me a champion template.
Forgotten realms has several super powered characters in the 40+ range. Off the top of my head all quicky-like, there's larloch and the netheril liches from the fallen empires book. The chosen of mystra are all in the 30s at least.
This is an old argument.
I only keep coming back to this thread because i want me a champion template.
Only 2 FR characters are over level 40- Karsus and Ioulum(sp?). Larloch tops out at level 32 with a Lich template.
The Dragon (Borys) was killed by a level 15 Gladiator (with an artifact) and some help. Its been a while since I've read the Prism Pentad. I'm no expert but we did playtest the ELH at levels 22-22 and at 30. Characters of that level are already uber. They're epic and don't really need to be level 50+ to be scary. A level 21 wizard with the epic spellcasting feat can use epic mage armor and craft a spell that makes you immune to all lvl 1-9 spells (including disjunction). +20 AC and unbeatable spell resistence at level 21. Borys at level 30with a temlate or as a Dragon should be scary enough for the majority of PCs. Our spellcasters managed to cast 20 spells a round at level 21 without to much cheese- no PrCs used, core rules only plus ELH.
Borys and several Dragon Kings were statted out. Rajaat was a plot device. I suggested level 40 as that would make him 10 levels higher than any other official character in DS. Most monsters in the ELH shouldn't exist in DS anyway- Prismatic Dragons nope, Abominations nope, Adamantine golems, nope. An epic game could easily have heroes who equal or surpass the Champions of Rajaat in power- assuming they meet in a gladiator ring. The SKs only have 3500+ years of experience and the resources of a city state to draw on though. Epic quests on Athas to me would be about restoring the planet or fixing the Mindlords of Saragar, or finding the Pyreen, restoring the sun, opening elemental gates to the plane of water, convincing the Kreen empire to not expand, removing the Silt from the Sea of Silt etc. Plenty of things to do. Out of 5 remaining SKs (not counting Dregoth)
1. Nibenay want to return to Athas past.
2. Ordonis wants to restore the planet.
3. Hamanu has sealed up Urik- or read RaFoaDK
4. Daskinor is in no condition to do anything.
5. Lalali-Puy wants to restore the planet
If the PCs can gather enough power to off Dregoth good on them. Everyone knows Rajaat will escape again as well
By keeping them withen a reasonable amount of levels it gives the PCs something to aspire to. If Rajaat is level 40 he is killable and getting rid of him permanently could make a good ending to an epic Darksun game. If I had to stat out a Dragon King I would borrow a Great Wurm Gold Dragon (different/weaker breath weapon) give it 20th level Psionic powers and then add levels of Cerebmancer/Dragon PrC until I had a rough update of the 2nd ed Dragon Kings. The CR would probably be around 27-28 for the Nibenay/Hamanu/ Lalali-Puy and 34ish for Borys if he was updated. That is still a crazy powerful character and I'm looking forward to the Champion of Rajaat Template. If no ones offended I'll stat one out tomorrow- its almost midnight over here.BTW I'm all for powergaming if needed. By making up 50th level+ characters to me theres very little point. "Look at me I have these unkillable NPCs you have no chance against". Suffice to say Elminster in FR isn't a favourite character of mine. Level 20+ NPCs also have access to magical powers in D&D most novel authors tend to minimise or ignore. Clone spells and ressurection come to mind. A 25ish-35ish CR Dragon King with the right spells, epic spells and feats would be a nightmare in combat.
Why? In 2nd ed he was level 30. Seems with the epic rulebook everyone has and idea to add 20-30 levels. Athas is a low magic world. Rajaat himself should probably be around level 40.
I myself feel the SKs would be between 46th and 55th level where as Rajaat would be around 80 or 85.
Awesome!
Not really because of the way xp worked in 2nd ed. With XYZ amount of xp you could have a 13th level wizard for example or a 8Fighter/10Thief/12th wizard. The dual class rules never worked very well in 2nd ed and were easily abusable. No one would claim the 8/10/12 character was level 32. A normal wiz/psion/cerebmancer in 3.5 can effectively make level 20/20 by level 30.
Hence my statement above about the official conversion rules from 2E -> 3/3.5e (as per the pamphlet that WotC had put out back when 3E launched!)
Not sure if you realise how much power a level 40 wizard has. If Rajaat for example was this level there very little he can't do or achieve. Even in FR a high magic world theres only 2 level 40+ characters in its entire history and they done similar things to Rajaat- floated mountains, created a desert etc.
Actually, I do realize it. Not sure if you realize how gimped a multiclassed character who only partially develops magic, or psionics (and dear god, BOTH!) really is. I've RUN obnoxiously high-level epic campaigns (not for Dark Sun, but I've run them). And believe me, your ideas as to what is and isn't appropriate levels is a bit off. The Sorcerer-Kings should be closer to on the scale of deities (level-wise) than mortals (based on fluff/flavor of setting more than anything). Deities (as per Deities & Demigods) are generally 20 class levels + 20 Outsider HD, + anything else. So you start at 40, with some going to 60. I think that the SK's being in a somewhat similar range seems about right with the mechanics. Rajaat is, like I said, best undefined. But if he is defined, he has to be powerful enough to strike utter fear in the SK's, and be the most powerful thing on Athas, bar none.
So yeah...that Champion of Rajaat template is awesome guys!
Awesome!
"Flip will have that shield down. You have to give him more time"
Oops, mixing quotes again. :P
"Flip will have that shield down. You have to give him more time"
Oops, mixing quotes again. :P
/me makes mumbling wookie noises
/me makes mumbling wookie noises
Actaully Chewie wasn't on the Falcon with Lando at that point. :P ;)
Actaully Chewie wasn't on the Falcon with Lando at that point. :P ;)
/me makes annoyed noises in that weird alien language then :P
/me makes annoyed noises in that weird alien language then :P
/me makes annoyed noises in that weird alien language then :P
Did anyone else ever wonder how Lando's co-pilot got his clothes on over that absurdly large head of his? Or were all of his shirts the kind with buttons up the front? Or is it just me that gets concerned about this kind of thing?
Did anyone else ever wonder how Lando's co-pilot got his clothes on over that absurdly large head of his? Or were all of his shirts the kind with buttons up the front? Or is it just me that gets concerned about this kind of thing?
Must be one of those "Marketing Assistant" things.
/me runs
:bounce:
/me kicks Flip in the junk for good measure
Must be one of those "Marketing Assistant" things.
/me runs
:bounce:
Filthy progmonkey. Have a banana and hush your yapping :P
Filthy progmonkey.
That's Mr. Filthy Promonkey to you! More like Mr. filthy indierock/progmonkey these days, but who's counting...
Have a banana and hush your yapping :P
Bah! I only shut my yap for eggrolls. You know better. :P
Hence my statement above about the official conversion rules from 2E -> 3/3.5e (as per the pamphlet that WotC had put out back when 3E launched!)
Actually, I do realize it. Not sure if you realize how gimped a multiclassed character who only partially develops magic, or psionics (and dear god, BOTH!) really is. I've RUN obnoxiously high-level epic campaigns (not for Dark Sun, but I've run them). And believe me, your ideas as to what is and isn't appropriate levels is a bit off. The Sorcerer-Kings should be closer to on the scale of deities (level-wise) than mortals (based on fluff/flavor of setting more than anything). Deities (as per Deities & Demigods) are generally 20 class levels + 20 Outsider HD, + anything else. So you start at 40, with some going to 60. I think that the SK's being in a somewhat similar range seems about right with the mechanics. Rajaat is, like I said, best undefined. But if he is defined, he has to be powerful enough to strike utter fear in the SK's, and be the most powerful thing on Athas, bar none.
SKs aern't gods though. Sorceror Kings can be kiled by mortals in the 15-18th level of experience range with artifacts. Imhotep is a level 20 expert/divine rank 1 for example.
SKs aern't gods though. Sorceror Kings can be kiled by mortals in the 15-18th level of experience range with artifacts. Imhotep is a level 20 expert/divine rank 1 for example.
Is that his true from or just an aspect/avatar though?
SKs aern't gods though. Sorceror Kings can be kiled by mortals in the 15-18th level of experience range with artifacts. Imhotep is a level 20 expert/divine rank 1 for example.
ok here is the KEY point you are missing the Borys was killed by an artifact the mortal was simple able to land the equivilant of a touch attack. and i say equivilant to a touch attack because what killed borys was the tip of the sword breaking off (here's the f*ed bit) and the sword sorta bleed out this black ooze that destroyed borys. The charactors actually had very little to do with killing borys. It was same with the other SK's i believe, killed by an artifact or a artifact altered spell or some such. Artifacts on other worlds can kill gods or at the very least bring then down several notches.
Thats the part of the argumen that you are missing. It was the artifact.
*This* is why they should be a hell of a lot higher than just 30th-40th levels, and hence why Rajaat should probably not be stated out, or a flat out 100th+ level.
Right now I have him based off of Khaine's Whos Who thread, I think it is like 70th or 75 levels or something like that, with both the Champion of Rajaat and Sorcerer King Templates.
I guess a major question to ask is if Dregoth will be stated in the DAIII adventure- If anyone is in the know and would like to let me know (secretly if you want) post it, PM me, or drop me an e-mail if you have mine and I will build Borys accordingly.
Yes. Dregoth will be stated in DA part III.
SKs aern't gods though. Sorceror Kings can be kiled by mortals in the 15-18th level of experience range with artifacts. Imhotep is a level 20 expert/divine rank 1 for example.
Ahh, but the Artifacts were what killed the SK's, not the mortals wielding them. Kalak not withstanding.
I personally believe that any Dragon from Athas is more then equal to a minor deity in any other setting- and in the case of Rajaat, well he would be about equal to a greater god- He created magic for silts sake- he is called the First Sorcerer for a reason. And he made the SKs kind of what they are today. What other god in any other setting can claim to have discovered and created the whole arcane spell casting system? None that I know of.
I think I will do a write up of Dregoth too and really soon so be on the look out for it.
Only 2 FR characters are over level 40- Karsus and Ioulum(sp?). Larloch tops out at level 32 with a Lich template.
The Dragon (Borys) was killed by a level 15 Gladiator (with an artifact) and some help. Its been a while since I've read the Prism Pentad.
It's indeed been a while, because it's been successfuly demonstrated that Borys was not killed by Rikus but by Rajaat, using the black goo as a proxy. (The only SKs killed by mortals were Kalak while he was extrememly vulnerable during the epic casting process, and they used an artifact on him, and also Abalach-Re, killed by Sadira after she had become a sun wizard and she used a shard of the Scourge which she drove in the queen's heart.)
As for comparing settings, what is the point? The mentalities of the characters are not the same, the intent of the setting's authors are not the same, the spirit of the game is wholly different: on Athas, even uber powerful wizards don't go around building arcane empires out of their bare hands. In fact the single most magical thing in the world that we've seen up to now is one of Rajaat's hideouts while he researched magic, that inverted floating pyramid.
All the SKs have the might to create marvelous enchanted and empowered cities, with flying coaches and all that, yet they don't, neither did anyone during the Time of Magic.
Apparently "uber" is not a word the SKs/Rajaat know, but they sure know "epic".
It's indeed been a while, because it's been successfuly demonstrated that Borys was not killed by Rikus but by Rajaat, using the black goo as a proxy. (The only SKs killed by mortals were Kalak while he was extrememly vulnerable during the epic casting process, and they used an artifact on him, and also Abalach-Re, killed by Sadira after she had become a sun wizard and she used a shard of the Scourge which she drove in the queen's heart.)
Abalach-Re was killed the same way the Dragon was, via Rajaat's essence oozing out of the piece of artifact she had. So you can't rightfully give Sadira that kill unless you want to give Rikus the kill for the Dragon as well.
Kalak was as good as dead by the time he was actually finished off with that axe.
Agis charging Kalak with the Heartwood spear is what finished off Kalak though, not an axe. If there was even an axe in that fight. I don't recall one anyways.
In short, they still had epic-level psionics, but pretty much nothing else.
Agis charging Kalak with the Heartwood spear is what finished off Kalak though, not an axe. If there was even an axe in that fight. I don't recall one anyways.
IIRC Tithian lopped off his head with the axe that Neeva had in the battle- then he picked up the crown and put it on.
Abalach-Re was killed the same way the Dragon was, via Rajaat's essence oozing out of the piece of artifact she had. So you can't rightfully give Sadira that kill unless you want to give Rikus the kill for the Dragon as well.
What I recall is Abalach being majorly distracted by something - I surmise that that was black goo coming out of the sword fragment stuck in her chest and oozing on the ground - and walked backwards away from it, giving Sadira the chance to come behind her, grab the shard and drive it deeper, piercing the heart.
The queen then had violent spasms and started smoking up, and Sadira, freaked out, threw the queen's body a dozen or more feet away where IIRC it burned from within. Sadira then went on to try and understand what was this goo on the ground and the goo created a mouth with a tongue of arcane energy that lashed out at her, etc, etc...
IIRC Tithian lopped off his head with the axe that Neeva had in the battle- then he picked up the crown and put it on.
Agis pierced Kalak's skull with the Spear, like a hot knife through butter. Tithian, scared out of his wits, the wimp that he was, then managed to rose up on his feet, find a metal two-bladed axe, and chop off the dead king's head, apparently as a way for him to convince himself he wasn't a wimp.
IIRC Tithian lopped off his head with the axe that Neeva had in the battle- then he picked up the crown and put it on.
Actually Tithian was taken out pretty early in the fight if I recall, though I do recall him trying to use the axe now that your bring it up.
Agis charged Kalak with the Heartwood spear and that killed Kalak.
Anyone who has read the PP more recently than I please correct me if I am wrong, but that is what I remember.
Agis pierced Kalak's skull with the Spear, like a hot knife through butter. Tithian, scared out of his wits, the wimp that he was, then managed to rose up on his feet, find a metal two-bladed axe, and chop off the dead king's head, apparently as a way for him to convince himself he wasn't a wimp.
That sounds more likely actually.
Thanks Penn for the clarificiation.
What I recall is Abalach being majorly distracted by something - I surmise that that was black goo coming out of the sword fragment stuck in her chest and oozing on the ground - and walked backwards away from it, giving Sadira the chance to come behind her, grab the shard and drive it deeper, piercing the heart.
The queen then had violent spasms and started smoking up, and Sadira, freaked out, threw the queen's body a dozen or more feet away where IIRC it burned from within. Sadira then went on to try and understand what was this goo on the ground and the goo created a mouth with a tongue of arcane energy that lashed out at her, etc, etc...
Yes, but it was the goo that eventually killed her, not Sadira stabbing her in the heart with the broken shard off of the Scourge.
Agis pierced Kalak's skull with the Spear, like a hot knife through butter. Tithian, scared out of his wits, the wimp that he was, then managed to rose up on his feet, find a metal two-bladed axe, and chop off the dead king's head, apparently as a way for him to convince himself he wasn't a wimp.
And if I remember correctly, Tithian did this well after the battle with Kalak was over.
And if I remember correctly, Tithian did this well after the battle with Kalak was over.
Kind of like the cheesy thief at the end of Conan The Destoryer. I'm pretty sure Denning was inspired by that movie for that part of the book. ;)
Yes, but it was the goo that eventually killed her, not Sadira stabbing her in the heart with the broken shard off of the Scourge.
Death of Abalach-Re, Cerulean Storm, pages 159-161:
Rkard manages to plant the broken off piece of the Scourge in Abalach while she is distracted with a mindscape psionic battle with Sadira. The psionic battle broken off, Sadira casts a spell, at a distance, on the shard in the queen's back, hoping to drive it further in, but only succeeds at making it hum. The queen, feeling/hearing this, hurridly tries to reach in her back to get the shard out of her, but before she succeeds the huming stops and the blade starts gushing black goo all over Sa'ram who was standing behind her. The goo transforms the banshee into a skeletal version of Rajaat who goes on to tell Abalach he has come for her. As the queen stumbles away, in panic, Sadira springs to the queen's back, puts one arm across her throat and with the other drives the shard deeper in the queen's body. The queen screams but falls silent when Sadira twists the blade, then she convulses and goes limp. Brown smoke starts pouring from her nostrils and mouth, her stomach muscles quiver, and a terrible heat pours off her body, causing her clothes to smoke. Sadira throws the dool-like corpse away and after landing on the ground it bursts into a column of bronze-colored flames, leaving nothing behind but the shard and a crater. Sadira turns around and sees what remains of Sa'ram while he's being dissolved by the black goo.
Death of Abalach-Re, Cerulean Storm, pages 159-161:
The queen screams but falls silent when Sadira twists the blade, then she convulses and goes limp. Brown smoke starts pouring from her nostrils and mouth, her stomach muscles quiver, and a terrible heat pours off her body, causing her clothes to smoke. Sadira throws the dool-like corpse away and after landing on the ground it bursts into a column of bronze-colored flames, leaving nothing behind but the shard and a crater.
Alright, so I was wrong here. Always thought the goo got her like it did Borys.
Still, it took a shard from one of Rajaat's swords and the strength of an advanced being (Sadira), to kill one of the SKs, which seems to be the running theme with the exception of Kalak.
Thanks for clearing that up Penn.
[...] with the exception of Kalak.
...who was in the middle of A) a painful, accelerated metamorphosis, and B) the casting of a lengthly epic spell, so he was rather preoccupied at the time, to say the least. Anyone in those circumstances would be as defenseless as Kalak was. Something like a coup de grace with the Spear killed him instantly.
Plus, I believe (personal belief) that the magic of the Spear weakened Kalak each time it pierced its body. If you recall the write-up I did for the Spear you know what I'm talking about.
Thanks for clearing that up Penn.
Anytime!
...who was in the middle of A) a painful, accelerated metamorphosis, and B) the casting of a lengthly epic spell, so he was rather preoccupied at the time, to say the least. Anyone in those circumstances would be as defenseless as Kalak was.
Bah! He was weak and pathetic, come on and join the "Kalak wasn't a champion" bandwagon, you know you want to. :P
Plus, I believe (personal belief) that the magic of the Spear weakened Kalak each time it pierced its body. If you recall the write-up I did for the Spear you know what I'm talking about.
I will have to look at the writeup again, it's been awhile and I don't remember that.
...who was in the middle of A) a painful, accelerated metamorphosis, and B) the casting of a lengthly epic spell, so he was rather preoccupied at the time, to say the least. Anyone in those circumstances would be as defenseless as Kalak was. Something like a coup de grace with the Spear killed him instantly.
Plus, I believe (personal belief) that the magic of the Spear weakened Kalak each time it pierced its body. If you recall the write-up I did for the Spear you know what I'm talking about.
There is also the fact that the DS novels frequently ignored the game system when it suited them, making rules comparisons based on the novels a risky proposition at best (a favourite example of mine is Sadira's line from Amber Enchantress: "I would have to defile in order to cast that spell..." - caused no end of trouble, that one has...)
Bah! He was weak and pathetic, come on and join the "Kalak wasn't a champion" bandwagon, you know you want to. :P
I'm part of athas.org now...must...not...voice...opinion...not sanctioned by the state............ohh, the pain!
I'm part of athas.org now...must...not...voice...opinion...not sanctioned by the state............ohh, the pain!
Uh...
, I am too and that hasn't stopped me from voicing my opinion.Not my fault if people can't seperate officialdum from my own personal opinion.
:D
"I would have to defile in order to cast that spell..." - caused no end of trouble, that one has...)
But interesting, that one is...
Seriously, a homebrew rule to add to any d20 adaptation of 3.5 DS must allow for someone to cast spells of one level higher than they can for their level, as long as they defile. (This is meant to tempt preservers. But to make defilers not too powerful in comparaison, you craft the rule so that such a spell has a DC, range, area, etc, the same as the maximum level spell you can normally cast, and that if it inflicts dices of damage it inflicts less of them, as per some formulae.)
But interesting, that one is...
Seriously, a homebrew rule to add to any d20 adaptation of 3.5 DS must allow for someone to cast spells of one level higher than they can for their level, as long as they defile. (This is meant to tempt preservers. But to make defilers not too powerful in comparaison, you craft the rule so that such a spell has a DC, range, area, etc, the same as the maximum level spell you can normally cast, and that if it inflicts dices of damage it inflicts less of them, as per some formulae.)
And so it begins again. I have only myself to blame... :P
Less than 10 minutes after he's struck by the Spear, I believe, he starts the casting of his epic spell, but anytime after that he might have failed at the final Spellcraft check if his Intelligence had lowered too much.
Or those of us that just want him stated so we can throw him at the PCs and watch them wet their pants.
you said it nytcrawlr!
My write-up for the Spear says it is capable of producing a special kind of poison keyed to Kalak, and that inflicts 1d6 ability damage to every score each 10 minutes it courses through his veins. Only way to remove the poison is through wish, miracle, or reality revision, which becomes increasingly difficult to achieve as his Intelligence score gets lower and lower.
No need to post the url, I will check it out later, but is this in the forum archive?
No need to post the url, I will check it out later, but is this in the forum archive?
Nope, on my computer only. Check your Gmail inbox or your MSN Received Files folder, maybe you still have it.
but where is the template???
I got an e-mail from Flip. He had a major Windows crash, but he will have the pdf out sometime later today. Sorry for the delay, guys. Blame Microsith.
;)
To me the Sorceror Kings are on par (maybe slightly higher) with the arch demons/devils on other worlds and fill similar roles. Archfiends are very powerful individually, are immortal and can grant/sponser spells.
I don't want to start any FR vs DS debates here (I like em both anyway) but both have some simialr mechanics and in 2nd ed both had 10th level spells (Dragon Kings book, Netheril Boxed Set I have both). The Psionic Enhancements and level 10 and 11 Netherese spells are both similar in terms of power. Karsus at level 41 manged to kill a god, Rajaat changed the sun and bestowed immortality on his champions. Rajaat and the SKs may come close but they're definately not gods- DS canon.
Now a while ago in the epic level forums someone posted an example of how an epic level spell could duplicate the 12th level Karsus Avatar spell in 2nd ed. It had a spellcraft DC in the 200's and a save DC of around 100 (take that Mistryl). All in all it was a clever update of a 2nd ed spell and he even gave an example of how Karsus could cast such a spell at level 41.
My point is Rajaat could still manage to do what he has done at level 40-45. he doesn't need to be level 80+ or 100+. Rajaat is 8000+ years old but he spent 2000 of that imprisoned, another 1500 in the pristine tower and I imagine his early levels would have taken a while to progress through since he had to learn from scratch. By game rules if he was is level 45 he doesn't even get any xp if he defeats something at CR39 or below. If he was level 80 I think thats getting absurd. 32 Great Wurm Prismatic Dragons are EL 76 to put it into perspective. Someone crunched the numbers at the epic boards or deities board and it take around 20 GW Prismatic Dragons to take down Bahamut the Platinum Dragon- divine rank 10 I think. Anyone here honestly believe Rajaat could take a god (divine rank 5+) by himself if he somehow got transported to another world?
Less is more IMHO. Rajaat may be level 80 or 100 or even 3000. My point is he doesn't need to be. 40-45 would put him in the category of epic and then some and he would be amoung the most powerful NPCs in the entire DnD villain pantheon from all worlds. Which he is
My point is Rajaat could still manage to do what he has done at level 40-45. he doesn't need to be level 80+ or 100+. Rajaat is 8000+ years old but he spent 2000 of that imprisoned, another 1500 in the pristine tower and I imagine his early levels would have taken a while to progress through since he had to learn from scratch. By game rules if he was is level 45 he doesn't even get any xp if he defeats something at CR39 or below.
You're kind of missing the point on the XP acquisition bit. Rajaat would not get XP from killing things: there are no infinite hordes of CR 15-20 demons and devils, or tarrasques, or thousands of dragons around to slaughter. Killing is so easy for Rajaat and his Champions that even when the Champions were waging their wars there must have been few challenges for them. Eradicating tens of thousands of pixies is not much challenge when you can do it by burning their forests. Even killing roaming tribes of 5th level fighter trolls is not a challenge when you can kill them with a single thought or swing of your enchanted sword. After you've reached level 30, even actual challenges for a 20th level character are no longer challenges for you.
As such, its not with encounter-based challenges (i.e. slaughtering bunches of high CR creatures) that Rajaat and the Champions made their XPs, but rather through other forms of challenges: the elaboration and implementation of war tactics, the creation and daily maintenance of a city-state, the 1,000 year-long discovery and creation of arcane magic, the research of epic magic for the last 1,000 years, the development of the Champion template and its costly implementation on 16 beings, etc.
Basically, consider Champions and Rajaat to have made their XP the way war generals and inventors of all things magical do, and modern day Champions to make their XP the way city administrators, emperors, and magical researchers do.
If you say the rules require a CR 40 challenge for a 45th level character to make XP, then maybe linking your body to the elemental plane of water, and transfering your essence from your body to your shadow, is a CR 40 challenge.
Heres some mor Cp for my arguement that SKs should only be around CR25-35ish. Sure most of them have died due to artifacts being involved. However the people involved were still alot lower in level than the Sorceror Kings who were generally level 21-23 in 2nd ed. The heroes of Tyr seemed to range from level 10-15 and tops out with Sadira at level 18(only in Sunlight though overwise level 10) at the end of the Prism Pentad.
The problem with your logic is you are not taking into account the existing mechanics that had been already painstakingly hammered out for Dragons. A character starts as a dragon, at the earliest without some specialized PrC help at level 28 when they begin the Dragon metamorphosis, if that character has devoted their entire development to the piursuit of being a Dragon. This is where the SK's were at or at least around 2,000 years ago. Now, the Dragon Metamorphosis Stages are independent of the PrC development (for the most part), which means that the Dragons are all at least level 1 in the PrC, and have any number of levels higher than that in it. And they could have had any other combinations of PrC's and Levels added to it.
Take Borys and Hamanu, for instance -- both of these characters are most likely not Psions.... they appear to be Psychic Warriors -- far more militaristic/martial than the others, and they were given special weapons to augment their prowess in the Cleansing Wars, while the other Sorcerer-Kings did not. While speculation on my part, it does have at least some merit, and matches the flavor/fluff material about those two better than Psion does (IMHO). So, bump that starting level for them from 28 (17 Wizard + 11 Psion) to 35 (17 Wizard + 18 Psychic Warrior).
And once again, this is just if the Sorcerer-Kings happened to somehow plan for Dragonhood (without any prior knowledge of it's existence) and were configured just right for it. Now, to be conservative about this, let's say that the Dragon that most closely matched these requirements has a net total of Dragon PrC levels and other unrelated PRC levels. That means you are looking at a character with 33 (as Psion) - 40 (as Psychic Warrior) character levels. Now, tack on the CR from being a Champion of Rajaat, and we're talking someone who's about a 45 - 50 Challenge Rating, And mind you, that's a conservative estimate.
okay...call me dumb
but where is the template???
On Flip's computer, which had an OS crash the same day the pdf was scheduled to be released. If that ain't Rajaat's work, it's just plain bad luck. :P
Anyway, seeing Flip is the one who had the updated files, you'll have to wait until he gets his computer up and running again. He told me he would do what he could to get the template out by the end of the day.
Which classes do you picture Dregoth being?
defiler :D
also i gotta say i liked xlorep's idea of him being an erudite
i'd also say archdefiler and possibly archpsion - ???
ehh, i'll have to give it some more thought, but IMO xlorep's build was pretty decent, if not maybe a lil' too high for the present dragon write-up.
Do their effects stack? Are some abilities overridden? (Note that I'm asking those questions without looking at the PrCs...so maybe the question is worthless.)
The problem with your logic is you are not taking into account the existing mechanics that had been already painstakingly hammered out for Dragons. A character starts as a dragon, at the earliest without some specialized PrC help at level 28 when they begin the Dragon metamorphosis, if that character has devoted their entire development to the piursuit of being a Dragon. This is where the SK's were at or at least around 2,000 years ago. Now, the Dragon Metamorphosis Stages are independent of the PrC development (for the most part), which means that the Dragons are all at least level 1 in the PrC, and have any number of levels higher than that in it. And they could have had any other combinations of PrC's and Levels added to it.
Take Borys and Hamanu, for instance -- both of these characters are most likely not Psions.... they appear to be Psychic Warriors -- far more militaristic/martial than the others, and they were given special weapons to augment their prowess in the Cleansing Wars, while the other Sorcerer-Kings did not. While speculation on my part, it does have at least some merit, and matches the flavor/fluff material about those two better than Psion does (IMHO). So, bump that starting level for them from 28 (17 Wizard + 11 Psion) to 35 (17 Wizard + 18 Psychic Warrior).
And once again, this is just if the Sorcerer-Kings happened to somehow plan for Dragonhood (without any prior knowledge of it's existence) and were configured just right for it. Now, to be conservative about this, let's say that the Dragon that most closely matched these requirements has a net total of Dragon PrC levels and other unrelated PRC levels. That means you are looking at a character with 33 (as Psion) - 40 (as Psychic Warrior) character levels. Now, tack on the CR from being a Champion of Rajaat, and we're talking someone who's about a 45 - 50 Challenge Rating, And mind you, that's a conservative estimate.
Well in 2nd ed they only gained 1-3 levels in 2000 years of being a Dragon King. In 3.5 terms they may have only gone up a hanful of levels as running the city states takes time and creating magical itmes drains xp. Sure they don't need to kill things to gain xp but in a typical game world thats the fast track to power and glory- go adventuring.
I had a thought about it today at work . I believe I've explained my less is more philosophy (ie Wiz10/Psion10/Cerebmancer10 instead of Wiz20/Psion20)and generally believe the Champions got their power in 3.5 terms via a PrC or 3. Hammanu however is definately interesting and I forgot a little rule in the back of the 3.5 Monster Manual. Basically its about associated class levels that add to CR etc. A 20/20 Wizard/Psion for example although he is level 40 is actually only CR30 as they don't really compliment each other out. Hammanu for example could be Fighter12/Psion10/Defiler10/Cerebmancer10/Dragon6 which makes him level 48 (23rd level Psion/Wizard ala 2nd ed). His CR however is 36 since his levels above 24-46 only add half their levels to his CR due to non associated class levels.You could even shave off a few fighter levels and make him Fighter8/Psion10/Defiler10/Cerebmancer10/Dragon6 and make him CR34 (I think you have to guesstimate here) and still have a decent BAB.
This brings him to withen a reasonable CR that I prefer myself and still gives him alot of levels. If its relevent in my DS campaign I'll probably tweak what you guys have done and maybe make up one or 2 PrCs to round them out. Rather than power them up via a template I would just power up the Dragon PrC (full progression in both Psion/Defiler) and skip using a template or make the Champion Template weaker than what you guys have done with it (not that I've seen it yet)- ie immortality and +4 on Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha.
My PCs don't know that much about DS as only one of them has played it before. One of them seemed genuinely shocked when he read Dragon Kings and found out the SKs were Dragons. His words were something like "So basically the Sorceror kings are Demigods and Dragons". I replied "more or less". Even the one who has played it knows virtually nothing about Rajaat or the Cleansing wars. He knows fragments about the pristine tower creating new races and by sometime around lvl 14 or 15 the PCs may now the true history of Athas and the SKs as I want to run them through Dregoth Ascending. At the moment I had them deiscover some lifeshaped ruins below Tyr and they saw a hologram/illusion whatever of a white tower changing the sun to yellow
You say you don't like that Champions are so powerful, and list them having too many levels as the reason for it, but then go to say that, even though a Champion could have the same levels he could be acceptable to you if his CR were downplayed?
My point is that characters do not fight CR, they fight the creature itself. If, say, 38 levels and CR 45 was too much for you, why would 38 levels and CR 30 be any better? Its still 38 levels of total party kill. CR is a gauge for the DM allowing him to measure the challenge level of the creature for his players. If you make the aforementionned level 38 creature have a CR of 30, and determine your players' party can take it, they're gonna be wiped out if the creature's real CR was 45... (Yes, in certain circumstances some class levels can be counted on a different ration than 1-on-1, but the classes a Champion is gonna have will be PC classes and PrCs, not NPC classes.)
Please tell me I've missed something, or that i totally missunderstood what you meant.
Ok, please tell me I'm wrong Zardnaar, because what you said is not that smart...
You say you don't like that Champions are so powerful, and list them having too many levels as the reason for it, but then go to say that, even though a Champion could have the same levels he could be acceptable to you if his CR were downplayed?
My point is that characters do not fight CR, they fight the creature itself. If, say, 38 levels and CR 45 was too much for you, why would 38 levels and CR 30 be any better? Its still 38 levels of total party kill. CR is a gauge for the DM allowing him to measure the challenge level of the creature for his players. If you make the aforementionned level 38 creature have a CR of 30, and determine your players' party can take it, they're gonna be wiped out if the creature's real CR was 45... (Yes, in certain circumstances some class levels can be counted on a different ration than 1-on-1, but the classes a Champion is gonna have will be PC classes and PrCs, not NPC classes.)
Please tell me I've missed something, or that i totally missunderstood what you meant.
My point being I could shave some CR points off some of these super high level builds floating around assuming I agreed that yes they really are level 40+ characters. I don't expect and exact conversion from 2nd ed to 3.5 as its basically impossable. However several people have more or less doubled the SKs levels for no reason that I can see. I'm a power gamer and I wouldn't build characters like that. I would start looking for PrCs like the Cerebmancer, Mystic Theurge, Arcane Heirophant etc for dual and triple classed characters or PrCs like the Beholder Mage or Ur Priest. By tweaking these or inventing new PrCs I believe you can come up with something close to the 2nd ed rules without making the SKs level 40-50+.
In 2nd ed rules Lalali-Puy was I think a 23rd level Dragon. In a 3.5 update I would try and aim for a character who equals that in magic/psionics. My idea for a SK is something like a Wizard/Psion who gets full spellcasting and psionics as soon as they qualify for a PrC. Basically a 14 level Athasian Cerebmancer PrC modeled on the Arcane Heirophant in Races of the Wild or True Necromancer that gets a handful of minor class abilities and dual progression. The epic "Athasian Cerebmancer PrC" would also get dual progression at the cost of reduced bonus epic feats. That way a 3.5 edition wannabe Dragon hits 20/20 Wiz/Psion at around 23 instead of 30. A 10 level Dragon PrC would stretch this to level 33 for a fully transformed Dragon (Borys had 32 HD so not to far off 2nd ed). A "Champion of Rajaat" template could also give them Dragon BAB and change all HD to d12s for example (and probably add around +2 to the CR). Under this idea Borys would be CR35 which brings him withen striking distence of Rajaat who I think would be level 40-42 or so.
Let's stop blathering about CRs and appropriate levels for NPCs in a thread that was supposed to be about the release (now delayed . . . curse you, windoze! cuuuuuuuurse yoooooooou!), and start a new thread and stop hijacking one like this.
I have a mac. Curse you wiiiiiindoooooooze!
Um......Nevermind. :D
Ah, the great kreen dragon Vortexa is saying something after a long absence and he...no, wait! Is that a post? Our judges are deciding at this very moment weither or not those few words consist in a post...hmm hmm, the verdict is in and No! our judges rule against! Vortexa will have to post again...
:P
From previous answers to similar questions, Zardnaar, I don't think the epic bureau likes the idea of a full progression epic cerebremancer, and have voiced their reasons on numerous occasions. Since the cerebremancer PrC is the fastest way to dragonhood, a new PrC with the same progression but additional class abilities would have steeper requirements, thus would have to be taken even later on than the cerebremancer...which would defeat the whole purpose of this new PrC, i.e. getting you to dragonhood with fewer levels.
Ok but how about my quasi true necromancer one which has dual progression but at a lesser rate than the Cerebremancer? I know the epic bureau doesn't like dual progression but I personally prefer that to several level 40 and 50 NPCs that have doubled their level since 2nd ed. Compare early dual class PrCs (Eldritch Knight,Mystic Theurge, ) to later ones like the Arcane Heirophant and True Necromancer,Fochlucan Lyrist etc which had dual progression and class abilities without being broken as hell.
Which classes do you picture Dregoth being?
I started up a Dregoth write up last night- I have him stated (for classes) as follows Psion (telepath) 10/ Defiler 10/ Cerebremancer 10/ Loremaster 10/ Arch Mage 5/ Arch Psion 4/ Dragon 10. And of course in the 9th stage of the defiler metamorphosis. His psionic disipline was something I found in the CbtSS. So right no he has 59 character levels and an ECL of 65 (AL +5 for kaisharga) and a CR of 69. Now this may be ajusted when I get the Champion template material. If I were to cut anything it would be the Arch Psion and Mage PrC's.
I have more done, but it is still in the early phases so I will not post the rest yet.
Or you could just say he's an erudite.
I'm not using the erudite (too similar to my spell-point-based arcane classes) though, but if I were I'd say he was an erudite.
Psychometabolist makes sense, considering his fascination with changing physical forms, imo.
Disclaimer: too lazy to look up his revised stats in the expanded dark sun boxed set, and those stats might be subtly different from the CbtSS stats. Just fyi.
I've done similar things with figuring out seeds from which full stat tables will grow for major dark sun npcs, and Dregoth is actually a psychometabolist rather than a telepath. According to the CbtSS stat block. Going on the old tradition that one must have more sciences and devotions from the primary discipline than any other discipline.
Or you could just say he's an erudite.
I'm not using the erudite (too similar to my spell-point-based arcane classes) though, but if I were I'd say he was an erudite.
Psychometabolist makes sense, considering his fascination with changing physical forms, imo.
Disclaimer: too lazy to look up his revised stats in the expanded dark sun boxed set, and those stats might be subtly different from the CbtSS stats. Just fyi.
In CbtSS- Dregoth has 6 telepathy sciences and 13 devotions, not including attack and defense modes, he only had 6 sciences and 12 devotions in psychometabolism. I broke out all of my old school material and checked it out before I started on my conversion.
(at this point, if I made a mistake and he actually has more telepathy than psychmetablism after that redistribution of metapsionic stuff, then I admit I'm an ass who can't count correctly!
)On another note, Yay for those of us nerds who grew up with the old school dark sun products and are living indices! Yay us! That's another way of saying "yay for those of us who know what the metapsionic discipline was from when it was existant"
:P
Of course, one could make the argument that the original intent was for him to be a psychometabolist using my line of thinking.
My Dregoth is just Orthodox Dregoth. Yours can be . . . Anglican Dregoth. ;)
It's a religion joke! Get it?
I'm gonna stick with my egoist dregoth just because it makes more sense to me, but I admit at this point that telepath dregoth is truer to the actual stats.
Back to preparing my presentation on whether or not the USA should pursue global hegemony. Wheeee!
I'm not fishing for distractions at all. Of course not. Heavens no.
Hah ha, heaven . . . religious jokes and allusions for everyone!
My point being I could shave some CR points off some of these super high level builds floating around assuming I agreed that yes they really are level 40+ characters. I don't expect and exact conversion from 2nd ed to 3.5 as its basically impossable. However several people have more or less doubled the SKs levels for no reason that I can see. I'm a power gamer and I wouldn't build characters like that. I would start looking for PrCs like the Cerebmancer, Mystic Theurge, Arcane Heirophant etc for dual and triple classed characters or PrCs like the Beholder Mage or Ur Priest. By tweaking these or inventing new PrCs I believe you can come up with something close to the 2nd ed rules without making the SKs level 40-50+.
Well, the thing is -- several of the standard PrC's just don't fir for Dark Sun. Now Cerebrmancer might, I'll agree.
The next thing is -- you seem to be under the impression that the Sorcerer-0Kings all knew they would be Dragons and therefore were developing on the most optimized (powergaming) path to reach the destination. I think it's silly to believe that they even knew what Dragons were (for the most part) prior to the rebellion against Rajaat. So... I say they should have made the requirements, however they didn't do it so optimally.
Now, you are claiming that people are just building these characters and tacking on a bunch of levels for no good reason. Believe it or not, you couldn't be farther from the truth, especially when it comes to how I've been treating it after we knocked out the Dragon PrC at Athas.org. Now, to turn the tables, I'm saying you want weak, low-level Sorcerer-Kings for no good reason. You are attempting to justify yourself, however you've done nothing but go in circles with your logic ("I think they should be low level because they shouldn't be really high levels because it makes no sense so therefore they should be low level..."). Especially when I had listed evidence to show that you might be a little low on your levelling scheme. Now mind you, I'm really unable to justify boosting them to their 50's and above, and I do have a hard time justifying even boosting them to above 40, but having them at or below 30 is just as unrealistic.
In 2nd ed rules Lalali-Puy was I think a 23rd level Dragon. In a 3.5 update I would try and aim for a character who equals that in magic/psionics. My idea for a SK is something like a Wizard/Psion who gets full spellcasting and psionics as soon as they qualify for a PrC. Basically a 14 level Athasian Cerebmancer PrC modeled on the Arcane Heirophant in Races of the Wild or True Necromancer that gets a handful of minor class abilities and dual progression. The epic "Athasian Cerebmancer PrC" would also get dual progression at the cost of reduced bonus epic feats. That way a 3.5 edition wannabe Dragon hits 20/20 Wiz/Psion at around 23 instead of 30. A 10 level Dragon PrC would stretch this to level 33 for a fully transformed Dragon (Borys had 32 HD so not to far off 2nd ed). A "Champion of Rajaat" template could also give them Dragon BAB and change all HD to d12s for example (and probably add around +2 to the CR). Under this idea Borys would be CR35 which brings him withen striking distence of Rajaat who I think would be level 40-42 or so.
Expecting that 15 completely independent developments resulted in 15 cerebrmancers is insane. That is all.
I would personally figure that the SK's are somewhere around level 35, with Borys and Dregoth being up near or at 40. Rajaat is considerably higher, and, here is the important part: should not be statted out. That way there is no argument about what level he should be. His level would be so rediculously high and statting him out would be an exercise in futility.,
Psychometabolism: Sciences- complete healing, death field, energy containment, life draining, metamorphosis, shadowform; Devotions- aging, boifeedback, body control, catfall, cause decay, chameleon power, displacement, double pain, enhancement, heightened senses, mind over body, prolong, suspend animation.
Telepathy: Sciences- aura alteration, domination, empower, mass donimation, mindlink, psychic crush*, (mindwipe), tower of iron will*, (probe), ultrablast; Devotions- aversion, awe, conceal thoughts, contact, (identity penetration), ego whip*, (attraction), ESP, id insinuation*, (psychic messenger), mind thrust*, (psionic vampirism), phobia amplification, psionic blast*, (synaptic static), psychic drain, send thoughts, thought shield*, (mind bar)
In the long run I guess it does not matter much- personally I see Dregoth as having some control issues (he just had to make his own race of followes and wants to be a god) which is why I really favor telepathy for him.
Either way- its all good!
As Jon said, my system went down for a nice little nap. But, I have a fresh new hard drive! (Everything important lives in a subversion repository on another machine. Version control, AND things don't get lost.)
Also, let me know what you think of the font-face in this ... the one that I've been using has been proving to be problematic, so I'm looking for another one that reads well.
My figuring out how the metapsionic powers redistributed was just making more work for myself when I could have just thought to look in the revised box set, but darnit, that extra work is what orthodoxy is all about! Viva le Orthodox Dregoth! :P
i sleep now