You can find it at http://athas.org/releases/templates/champion_of_rajaat-r1.pdf
Please post comments here.
You've left open the option to create CoRs that don't have or use spells or psionics. In that case signature spells is useless. Is that intentional? Of course we all know that the sorcerer-kings can cast spells, but in theory this isn't just a template for them.
Why do fire and acid cause normal damage for purposes of regeneration? Is there some canonical reason for this?
Along similar lines, why fire resistance 5? That seems pretty minor, especially when this grants a +17 CR.
Finally, why +17 CR? That seems really high.
I'm not trying to sound overly critical so I hope this doesn't come across that way, but these are just the first things that popped into my mind.
All I want is to look at it!!!If that doesn't solve the problem, uninstall Acrobat Reader and install the latest version - which should be a permanent fix.
Finally, why +17 CR? That seems really high.
I have to agree with that. The epic paragon creature template is only a +15 and that has more potent abilities than the Champion one currently possesses.
Although the CR and LA doubtless seem high, they are in line with other templates of this power level. Compare with the Paragon Creature template from the ELH (or Epic section of the SRD) for a look at a template of similar power.
... we're working on the Champion of Rajaat template. I'm hoping to be able to tackle that one and get it compiled for the Bureau here soon (like this weekend), so then we can tweak it, get it functional, and then released.
I'm really curious to see this, but am interested in seeing the Champions differentiated by the template as per each's chosen race (ie, perhaps Ininek would have control over wind currents, more easily grounding her foes, and the ability to fly seems a given. Perhaps Dregoth's strength might've been increased, while Myron had that fire blasting power of his.)Agreedthat would be appropriate...
I gotta say I'm kind of disappointed that this wasn't mentioned, at all.
Although the CR and LA doubtless seem high, they are in line with other templates of this power level. Compare with the Paragon Creature template from the ELH (or Epic section of the SRD) for a look at a template of similar power.
I'm not an expert on creature creation but at a glance the Paragon Creature seems vastly more powerful than the CoR template. They have +15 to all abilities, +25 to all attacks, +20 to all melee/thrown damage, +10 to all saves and skills, +15 caster level for spell-like abilities, etc. The CoR doesn't have anything that's comparable to these powers.
Although the CR and LA doubtless seem high, they are in line with other templates of this power level. Compare with the Paragon Creature template from the ELH (or Epic section of the SRD) for a look at a template of similar power.
I don't know, I'm going to have to say that the Paragon seems a bit more powerful than the Champion even though its a CR of +15.
Thats fine so long that the CR the Champion is brought below that or if a few more abilities are added to justify it being a 17(or 16).
Why do fire and acid cause normal damage for purposes of regeneration? Is there some canonical reason for this?
Along similar lines, why fire resistance 5? That seems pretty minor, especially when this grants a +17 CR.
Finally, why +17 CR? That seems really high.
Very nice. I like what I see initially. I do have a question of course. Why was there no abilities that effect the Champion's use in psionics? Not that I need to point it out, but they were also high level users of the Way which was why Rajaat selected them to be his Champions in the first place.
Actually the thing is.... the setting materials tend to show that Rajaat chose his Champions from the "elite" of his Defiler students, who were selected from the "elite" of his Preserver students. They happened to be users of the Way as well, and that most likely had some element in the selection process, but I would tend to see that one of the most defining elements would have been a promising individual with vast abilities at their disposal, and minds that could be swayed to leading the fight to annihilate a race. As such, it's easily concievable that some of them may have been Psychic Warriors (not exactly *masters* of the Way), while I'd even wage that there could have been a Wilder, depending on the situation. Psionics seem to play more of a utility role than a defining role for the Champions of Rajaat.
A few questions:
You've left open the option to create CoRs that don't have or use spells or psionics. In that case signature spells is useless. Is that intentional? Of course we all know that the sorcerer-kings can cast spells, but in theory this isn't just a template for them.
Well, it's just as simple as that Rajaat is the one making a Champion. I guess that if a DM deems that he'd make another Champion that wasn't a spellcaster, it's completely possible.
For instance, I'd tend to think that Hamanu had no spellcasting ability, and possibly only a very small inkling of psionic ability when he was made Champion (I'd figure he has levels in the Warrior NPC class). Rajaat then could be reasoned to have given him the ability to use magic (can we say Sorcerer anyone?), and he may have developed more as a Psychic Warrior as well. But this is just my own example (using my theories on Dark Sun) as to how the Champion of Rajaat template could be used on an individual who isn't a spellcaster or manifester.
Finally, why +17 CR? That seems really high.
Well... You see, there's... *dashes for the exit*
I was also shocked that some sort of "detect designated race" wasn't included as a Champion ability.
While I had considered that ability, there really isn't too much cannonical references to such an ability. Still, it does seem to be something that may make sense, especially if the ability has a somewhat limited range... like 1 mile or something. After all, Keltis was certain Lizardmen were in the Last Sea. Hi defiling showed him that there weren't any (because of the Mind Lords protecting them), but he still was somewhat convinced that they were there (he pushed real hard and even openly defied the Mind Lords to find them).
Actually the thing is.... the setting materials tend to show that Rajaat chose his Champions from the "elite" of his Defiler students, who were selected from the "elite" of his Preserver students. They happened to be users of the Way as well, and that most likely had some element in the selection process, but I would tend to see that one of the most defining elements would have been a promising individual with vast abilities at their disposal, and minds that could be swayed to leading the fight to annihilate a race. As such, it's easily concievable that some of them may have been Psychic Warriors (not exactly *masters* of the Way), while I'd even wage that there could have been a Wilder, depending on the situation. Psionics seem to play more of a utility role than a defining role for the Champions of Rajaat.).
I see where your coming from. Even still, I would think that there would have been some sort of boost for their psionic abilities. Even something as minor as an increase in their power points (+20pp) would have been justified IMO.
While I had considered that ability, there really isn't too much cannonical references to such an ability. Still, it does seem to be something that may make sense, especially if the ability has a somewhat limited range... like 1 mile or something. After all, Keltis was certain Lizardmen were in the Last Sea. Hi defiling showed him that there weren't any (because of the Mind Lords protecting them), but he still was somewhat convinced that they were there (he pushed real hard and even openly defied the Mind Lords to find them).
Agreed. I like to suggest that a detect designated race in a 1 mile radius be added to the template. I think that would be more warrented than the Dread Strike ability (which I like).
I don't know, I'm going to have to say that the Paragon seems a bit more powerful than the Champion even though its a CR of +15.
Thats fine so long that the CR the Champion is brought below that or if a few more abilities are added to justify it being a 17(or 16).
+17 to CR is insane, I guess that a +4 to CR would be fair.
Here are my comments- I am not out to offend anyone, just voicing my thoughts.
The beginning paragraphs need tweaking (example- paragraph 2 line 1 Rajaat?s and also Champion?s in last sentence third paragraph).
Signature Spells- I would suggest using the same language as the cleric ability of spontaneous spellcasting - it would read easier.
Energy Storing- I would leave this to the Dragon material to reduce the amount of redundancy.
Instead of breaking up the Immunities section make it all one part - but I would really like to see the Transmutation immunity removed. Also, if they are immune to ability damage would they be able to use psionic feats that like Overchannel or Body Fuel- I personally think that part should be taken out too.
Regeneration- While I like the idea, I think Fast Healing would be better ( around 5 hp) or at least reduce the regeneration to 5 or something because it seems really too high to me. Combined with their DR right now they could effectively shrugging off 25 pts of damage per round.
Energy Resistance- 5 fire resistance? Really? With it being this low I would just remove it.
SR/PR- what is your rational for having it be a fixed number- IMO it would be better served to make it 5 + HD.
I also have to chime in on the CR and LA- +17 and +20- wow- I really think it is too much
Agreed. I like to suggest that a detect designated race in a 1 mile radius be added to the template. I think that would be more warrented than the Dread Strike ability (which I like).
While I do like the Dread ability- I really have to agree that the ability to locate said enemy would be vastly better and maybe instead of the Dread Strike just give them a +6 to at and damage said race and +6 to all related checks that deal with them.
I was also shocked that some sort of "detect designated race" wasn't included as a Champion ability.
I'd agree that this might be a worthwhile addition to the template.
+17 to CR is insane, I guess that a +4 to CR would be fair.
Sorry, but +4 is wildly inadequate. I do agree that the CR can come down a bit, though. Taking a more conservative approach to the CR might yield a breakdown as follows:
Dread Strike = +2 CR (epic ability)
Signature Spell = +1 CR
Damage Reduction = +2 CR (epic ability)
Energy Storing = +1 CR
Basic Immunities = +1 CR
Transmutation Immunities = +1 CR
Energy and Ability Drain Immunities = +1 CR
Regeneration = +1 CR
Resistances = +1 CR
That gives us CR +11. Immortality and the ability to sense members of the designated race are probably not worth a CR adjustment (but would be worth a +1 LA, however). This brings it more in line with, for example, the paragon creature template.
I am sorry to say that I am a bit disappointed with this template- I appreciate the work you fellows did but I do not really like the final outcome.
Here are my comments- I am not out to offend anyone, just voicing my thoughts.
No offense
All feedback is useful.The beginning paragraphs need tweaking (example- paragraph 2 line 1 Rajaat?s and also Champion?s in last sentence third paragraph).
Yes, that's a font issue and easily fixed.
Signature Spells- I would suggest using the same language as the cleric ability of spontaneous spellcasting - it would read easier.
The template is actually directly based on the wording of the section on cleric spontaneous casting from the SRD ("A good cleric (or a neutral cleric of a good deity) can channel stored spell energy into healing spells that the cleric did not prepare ahead of time. The cleric can “lose” any prepared spell that is not a domain spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower (a cure spell is any spell with “cure” in its name).").
Energy Storing- I would leave this to the Dragon material to reduce the amount of redundancy.
In fact, it is the Champions that have this power, and not dragons, according to the Wanderer's Chronicle. But, yes, this is something that needs to be addressed.
Instead of breaking up the Immunities section make it all one part - but I would really like to see the Transmutation immunity removed. Also, if they are immune to ability damage would they be able to use psionic feats that like Overchannel or Body Fuel- I personally think that part should be taken out too.
Yes, the immunities should probably be placed together.
The various immunities (and some of the other powers) are part of the template because it was based on the concept of a Divine Rank 0 creature - that is where many of the template's powers and abilities come from. It's a valid, question, though, as to whether that model should remain intact.
Regeneration- While I like the idea, I think Fast Healing would be better ( around 5 hp) or at least reduce the regeneration to 5 or something because it seems really too high to me. Combined with their DR right now they could effectively shrugging off 25 pts of damage per round.
Fast Healing was considered, but I went with Regeneration to give the Champions exactly the kind of resilience you mention. It is pretty hefty, but I think that it fits.
Energy Resistance- 5 fire resistance? Really? With it being this low I would just remove it.
It does seem pretty low - it's another artifact of the templates origins in the Divine Rank 0 concept. It might well be a good idea to either ditch it or increase it.
SR/PR- what is your rational for having it be a fixed number- IMO it would be better served to make it 5 + HD.
Again, this is a Divine Rank 0 legacy. I'm actually pretty OK about it being a static number, though, as it represents the idea that the Champions were infused with their power irrespective of their individual strengths.
I also have to chime in on the CR and LA- +17 and +20- wow- I really think it is too much
Agreed. See my above post with ideas on lowering this.
I.
Energy Storing- I would leave this to the Dragon material to reduce the amount of redundancy.
I somewhat agree with this. It does appear to be a redundant ability and trample all over the Dragon PrC.
I somewhat agree with this. It does appear to be a redundant ability and trample all over the Dragon PrC.
Check out the descriptions of the creation of the Champions in the Wanderer's Chronicle and Defilers & Preservers - both of those sources make it clear that the ability to store and drain life energy through the use of obsidian orbs is a power particular to the Champions. In actuality, it isn't a dragon power at all.
Check out the descriptions of the creation of the Champions in the Wanderer's Chronicle and Defilers & Preservers - both of those sources make it clear that the ability to store and drain life energy through the use of obsidian orbs is a power particular to the Champions. In actuality, it isn't a dragon power at all.
A great opportunity to strip it from the Dragon PrC and replace it with another ability if you ask me.
While Regeneration 15 is nice, and pretty damn powerful, it's not enough to warrant a higher CR and LA than the paragon template which gives far more abilities, and higher powered ones at that.
Please specifically point out how the CoR template is more powerful than the Paragon template.
I know it's been awhile since I've designed monsters and such and I'm not the greatest when it comes to CRs, but this seems glarringly unfitting.
Maybe if you beefed up the CoR template some I could see it, but as it stands the Paragon gets an additional 12 hit points per HD along with the max hit points; tripled speed; +24 bonus to AC from two different bonus types and possibly a +5 to natural armor; +25 luck bonus to all attacks; +20 damage bonus to melee and thrown ranged attacks; +13 insight bonus to all SAs; +15 to caster level + three high level spells; Fire AND Cold resistance of 10; DR 10/epic; SR = CR +25; Fast Healing 20; Natural weapons treated as epic weapons for DR purposes; +10 insight bonus on all saving throws; +15 to all Abilities; +10 to all skill checks; and a bonus feat.
Compared to the CoR which only gets max hit points; instant dread weapon no matter the weapon, enchantment bonus on said weapon to +4, extra 4d6 damage, instant kill if fail fort save (however all of these only apply to one race); 9 signature spells; DR 10/epic; Energy Storing; Immortality; truck load of immunities; Regen 15 (fire and acid); FR 5; and SR and PR 32.
Which are all great abilities don't get me wrong, I was pleasantly surprised by the abilities and think a few more should be added, but regardless I don't think this stacks up to being more powerful than the Paragon template. The immunities and Regen are huge, but the rest doesn't make up for everything else the Paragon gets comparitively IMO, esp since some of that is geared towards one race. The 9 signature spells is cool, but yet again isn't enough with everything else to warrant a higher CR and LA than the Paragon.
It just doesn't add up to me.
-Some sort of bonus to some or to all ability scores.
-Bonus to power point reserve
-Increased defiling radius and/or to the penalty suffered by those caught in it.
Energy Storing- I would leave this to the Dragon material to reduce the amount of redundancy.
Kill from Dragon PrC and replace with a better ability since this fits more with CoR than the Dragon PrC.
Regeneration- While I like the idea, I think Fast Healing would be better ( around 5 hp) or at least reduce the regeneration to 5 or something because it seems really too high to me. Combined with their DR right now they could effectively shrugging off 25 pts of damage per round.
That's the point though, it's *suppose* to be that crazy, and I agree that it should be.
However, can we be a bit more imaginative (no offense) on what stops the regeneration other than pulling a Troll? I say at least nix Fire since they have that as a resistance and keep acid and replace fire with something more DSish, the same with acid as well if you don't want to keep that.
Cold and Acid maybe? I don't know, but Fire and Acid just seems too cheesy to me.
Energy Resistance- 5 fire resistance? Really? With it being this low I would just remove it.
Actually it should be increased to something more along the lines of 15 or 30. I meean Borys did live in an area surrounded by volcanoes, and lava like blood that didn't seem to burn him as it oozed out of his wounds, etc.
Hell flat out immune to fire might be a good idea as well.
SR/PR- what is your rational for having it be a fixed number- IMO it would be better served to make it 5 + HD.
I say either make it based on HD or up it to at least 40 for each to make it match the epic magic item in the ELH that gives SR.
Pretty much everything else I like, I would also like to see the "detect chosen race" ability added as well and keep the weapon abilities the way they are. It's not like most of them can use them durring current Athasian times and fit real well with the concept too.
-Some sort of bonus to some or to all ability scores.
Agreed, seems like this template gips the one who takes it some in this area.
-Bonus to power point reserve
That would be cool too. Like +20 or something like you suggested earlier.
-Increased defiling radius and/or to the penalty suffered by those caught in it.
Works for me as well, maybe double the current penalties already associated with the defiler's radius as well as maybe an increase, like double as well maybe.
Great job on the template guys, though I'm going to have to concur here and say that it also needs some tweaking and a few more abilities added to it in order to justify the high CR and LA.
...snip...
It just doesn't add up to me.
Yeah, the CR and LA need adjusting - see my post above for some suggestions in this regard
.A few suggestions to add to the template. Take them or leave them for what their worth:
-Some sort of bonus to some or to all ability scores.
-Bonus to power point reserve
-Increased defiling radius and/or to the penalty suffered by those caught in it.
There were some ability score and skill bonuses suggested, but they don't seem to have made it into the final version. I had proposed the following
Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +4, Con +4, Int +4, Wis +8, Cha +8.
Skills: Champions of Rajaat have a +8 racial bonus on Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive and Spot checks.
These are real shots in the dark, however, as there is little information in the 2e material that hints at their precise abilities. Still, it's worth considering.
A small bonus to power points might also be feasible, as might some kind of boost to defiling power. You could argue that it is implied that the Champions were chosen for their prowess as defilers and possibly as mindbenders. I'd say that you could then argue it either way as to whether the template boosts those abilities. There's nothing in the old material that suggests it, but there is also nothing that rules it out. We're dealing with more or less virgin territory here, after all
.However, can we be a bit more imaginative (no offense) on what stops the regeneration other than pulling a Troll? I say at least nix Fire since they have that as a resistance and keep acid and replace fire with something more DSish, the same with acid as well if you don't want to keep that.
Perhaps that odd metal ore that the Scorcher and the Silencer are made of?
Yeah, the CR and LA need adjusting - see my post above for some suggestions in this regard
Heh, sorry Kam. Took me awhile to post what I did and I didn't see your response till it was too late.
It's all good.
Perhaps that odd metal ore that the Scorcher and the Silencer are made of?
I was thinking of that, but it's always energy based, not type of material based, at least I have yet to see something with Regeneration that has a material stop it instead of some sort of energy.
There were some ability score and skill bonuses suggested, but they don't seem to have made it into the final version. I had proposed the following
Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +4, Con +4, Int +4, Wis +8, Cha +8.
Skills: Champions of Rajaat have a +8 racial bonus on Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive and Spot checks.
I was wondering where these had gone to. Flip?
I was thinking of that, but it's always energy based, not type of material based, at least I have yet to see something with Regeneration that has a material stop it instead of some sort of energy.
True, but we are talking about unique beings that don't fit the usual mold in their abilities. However, if it needs to be an energy type I'd limit it to just fire. My reason being that it was the power of the sun that fueled the Champions transformation after all.
There were some ability score and skill bonuses suggested, but they don't seem to have made it into the final version. I had proposed the following
Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +4, Con +4, Int +4, Wis +8, Cha +8.
Skills: Champions of Rajaat have a +8 racial bonus on Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive and Spot checks.
That's at least a good start.
We're dealing with more or less virgin territory here, after all
Indeed. Whoever all was involved did a decent initial job, now it's time to adjust.
Spells or powers that are cast or manifested by the Champion against their designated race deal addition +1 damage (maybe more) per damage die and beings of that race suffer a -2 penalty (don't know what type) to save verse them.
Or something to that effect.
Also, whatever you used to write the text or create the pdf didn't recognize " ' " as a symbol and replaced it with " ? ".
Its also acceptable to lay off a bit on the "champion of Rajaat" bit and half the time replace it with "champion".
The 4th line of the Signature Spells ability lacks a dot.
About the Energy Storing orbs, you use the expression "psionically enchanted obsidian orbs" while the correct one is "psionically empowered obsidian orbs" or simply "empowered obsidian orbs".
The Transmutation and Energy Drain paragraphs are too much indented.
In Immunities you say "paralysis, and death effects, and disintegration." while it should be "paralysis, death effects, and disintegration."
Might this be an ability included.
*Note - I'm not sure if you guys are planning on creating a template for being a SK as well, so disregard if this is the case.
other things i'd like to see:
-ability bonus
-ability similar to ranger vs favored enemy?
-a boost to BOTH caster and manifester level similar to the sun-touched template (remember sadira was mentioned to be basically a Champion Lite, ceated without rajaat or the dark lens being directly involved, and lacking the genocide and psionic parts)
-bonus power points and/or spells cast
-cr and la adjustment. as it stands i'm more inclined to just yoink the epic paragon template and apply it to champions . . .
-whatever the sr/pr winds up being, i want to see it being stackable with other things, like being a dragon and a sorcerer-monarch.
Another suggestion - in RaFoaDK, Hamanu had an almost omnisciount sense of what happened in his city.
Might this be an ability included.
I'd think that ability was something Hamanu himself personaly devised vs that it was an ability of the CoR template. Also remember that the SKs weren't rulers of cities when Rajaat made them his Champions.
*Note - I'm not sure if you guys are planning on creating a template for being a SK as well, so disregard if this is the case.
God, I hope there isn't plans for this.
Also remember that the SKs weren't rulers of cities when Rajaat made them his Champions.
God, I hope there isn't plans for this.
Yes, good point Sysane.
These are real shots in the dark, however, as there is little information in the 2e material that hints at their precise abilities.
Sorry but that's a weak argument guys. You ain't debating adding unfounded abilities/powers to a 2E conversion of an NPC in an adventure, for example, but are building a template who's powers were only ever described in novels, and then only partially.
Creative license is in order to fill the gaps and flesh out the abilities.
I'm not proposing to go "tip of the iceberg" on the template, i.e. say that all the powers we know of are but a fraction of the template's powers, but several new and never before seen - but thematically linked - abilities are more than welcome. AFAIK there is no direct or indirect evidence the champions were actually more potent when fighting their designated races, yet you chose the dread weapon way. That qualifies as creative license right there, so keep doing it.
I'm surprised not to see that many more of Xlorep's old template abilities, he probably has arguments against their inclusion, but he did have nice sets of new abilities that were very much so thematically linked to cleansing and championhood.
Check out, from his write-up: Senses, Travel, Genocidal Focus, Genocidal Rage, Possess Mind.
Sorry but that's a weak argument guys.
It isn't an argument at all, weak or otherwise. I am simply qualifying my suggested ability score and skill bonuses by saying that any exercise of creative license is without precedent and will need fine-tuning.
You ain't debating adding unfounded abilities/powers to a 2E conversion of an NPC in an adventure, for example, but are building a template who's powers were only ever described in novels, and then only partially.
Creative license is in order to fill the gaps and flesh out the abilities.
I'm not proposing to go "tip of the iceberg" on the template, i.e. say that all the powers we know of are but a fraction of the template's powers, but several new and never before seen - but thematically linked - abilities are more than welcome. AFAIK there is no direct or indirect evidence the champions were actually more potent when fighting their designated races, yet you chose the dread weapon way. That qualifies as creative license right there, so keep doing it.
Agreed. It is for precisely this reason that this material is circulated through the boards - to generate feedback and get an idea of what the community would like to see in a template like this. This one will take some thrashing out, methinks ;)...
I'm surprised not to see that many more of Xlorep's old template abilities, he probably has arguments against their inclusion, but he did have nice sets of new abilities that were very much so thematically linked to cleansing and championhood.
Check out, from his write-up: Senses, Travel, Genocidal Focus, Genocidal Rage, Possess Mind.
Yeah, none of those featured in the material that was passed to me for statting out. It might be interesting to see aspects of the template developed that are completely independent of the existing epic/divine rules (which were the main source of inspiration for the template's current abilities).
I'm surprised not to see that many more of Xlorep's old template abilities, he probably has arguments against their inclusion, but he did have nice sets of new abilities that were very much so thematically linked to cleansing and championhood.
Check out, from his write-up: Senses, Travel, Genocidal Focus, Genocidal Rage, Possess Mind.
Yeah, none of those featured in the material that was passed to me for statting out. It might be interesting to see aspects of the template developed that are completely independent of the existing epic/divine rules (which were the main source of inspiration for the template's current abilities).
I blame time. Ever since getting my job (which I love), and being a full-time student, the time I've had to devote to any project has been vaporizing. As finals approach, my time becomes even less available, and I haven't been able to get my old Champion of Rajaat template out, wasn't really able to provide any input except on the surface (something like "yea, I saw it, seems decent enough at a glance"). Unfortunately, it's been like that for some time for me, and unfortunately, I don't see my time opening up for extended periods for a while. Middle of December is when school ends, only for me to turn around and begin hunting for both a new place to live, and a vehicle. When that's all settled down, I end up back in school, plus will be working full-time at my job (changing to full-time work/part-time student, unlike my current full-time student/part-time work situation). I barely have time to eat and sleep any more, with work, school, homework (classes are really starting to pile this on me), class projects, and preparations for finals.
Mind you, I do prefer having a lot of things to do, and making money, over the alternative. It's just that my time is non-existant.
Maybe I might be able to get a free moment to dig up my old Champion of Rajaat template (which could be a bit overpowered). If only I could remember where I put it...
Btw, what's the deal with that Eldritch stuff? Could anybody tell me what's the deal with Eldritch, I have seen many product name with this word?
Very interesting thread, very constructive (great guy!) and very number crunching (which I am not).
Btw, what's the deal with that Eldritch stuff? Could anybody tell me what's the deal with Eldritch, I have seen many product name with this word?
It's just a fancy way of saying "old & powerful". A word that's been popularized in RPG's a bit.
Before I post them though- I would like to say- PLEASE no ability boosts! For my own selfish reasons of course- I alread have Dregoths skills done and would hate to have to go and recalc them!!!
Anywho- I do not know who made these items- they are not mine and I am not taking credit for them- even though they are cool
[FONT=Papyrus]Champion Of Rajaat[/FONT] (template)
The base creature’s type and size remains unchanged. It uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.
Hit Dice: A Champion always has maximum hit points.
Armor Class: Champions gain a +4 insight bonus to AC.
Attacks and damage: Champions gain a +2 to hit and damage rolls.
Special Attacks: A Champion gains the following special attacks.
Chosen Prey (Ex): the Champion gets a +4 bonus to hit and deals double damage against members of the race he's to exterminate,
Extermination (Ex): A Champion can instantly slay against members of the race he's to exterminate on a critical hit if the victim does not succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 10 + half the Champion's character level + the Champion's Charisma modifier).
Special Qualities: A Champion retains all the special qualities of the base creature and also gains the following:
Ageless (Su): A Champion no longer ages and cannot die of old age. Any previous age penalties remain, but no new penalties accrue.
Damage reduction 5/-: If the creature already possesses damage reduction, they stack;
Fast healing 5: If the creature already possess this ability, use the best value;
Fire and cold resistance 10: If the creature already possesses such resistance, they stack;
Immune to disease, including magical diseases.
Magic Resistance (Su): A Champion receives a +4 bonus to save against spells and spell-like abilities.
Perfect Memory (Ex): A Champion can remember everything he has lived through, even things that happened before he became a Champion.
Psionic Resistance (Su): A Champion receives a +4 bonus to save against psionic powers and effects.
Abilities: A Champion receives a +4 inherent bonus to Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, and Charisma.
Feats: Same as the base creature plus 2 bonus feats of the Sorcerer Monarch’s choice.
Challenge Rating: as base creature +5
Treasure: Standard for a creature of the adjusted CR
Alignment: Same as base creature (usually evil)
Advancement: Same as the base creature
[FONT=Papyrus]Sorcerer Monarch[/FONT] (template)
The base creature’s type and size remains unchanged. It uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.
Hit Dice: As base creature.
Armor Class: As base creature.
Attacks and damage: As base creature.
Special Attacks: A Sorcerer Monarch gains the following special attacks.
Arcane Prowess (Su): The DCs to save against spells cast by a Sorcerer Monarch are increased by +2.
Psionic Prowess (Su): The DCs to save against powers manifested by a Sorcerer Monarch are increased by +2.
Special Qualities: A Champion retains all the special qualities of the base creature and also gains the following:
Abundant Life (Su): A Sorcerer Monarch is immune to ability drain and energy drain effects, although they are still vulnerable to ability damage.
Commanding Presence (Su): Any being with fewer Hit Dice than the Sorcerer Monarch that successfully makes a Will save against a Sorcerer Monarch’s use of the Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidate skills must immediately make a second save against the same DC. The results of the second save are kept, even if they are worse than the first.
Grant Spells (Su): A Sorcerer Monarch can channel the energies of the elemental planes in the form of templar spells. However, he's not able to use it himself, instead granting these spells to his templars. The Champion is always aware of his templar’s spell use and may deny it if he wishes.
Abilities: A Champion receives a +4 inherent bonus to Intelligence and Wisdom.
Feats: Same as the base creature plus 2 bonus feats of the Champion’s choice.
Challenge Rating:as base creature +5
Treasure: Standard for a creature of the adjusted CR
Alignment: Same as base creature (usually evil)
Advancement: Same as the base creature
The Champions of Rajaat:
Rajaat, the War-Bringer, was the founder of Arcane magic on Athas; he was the First Sorcerer. By now all those familiar with his story know that he created Champions to fulfill his vision of a “cleansed” Athas, rebuilt to resemble the glory of the Blue Age. Here is a definition in game terms what it means to be a Champion.
I see the Champion as more than just a dragon-king with a title. Rajaat gave each of his Champions special abilities unique to each Champion to fulfill their missions. Most information on this idea comes from Lynn Abbey’s The Rise and Fall of a Dragon King. From these insights I have determined that the Champions should be a Template under the 3.5ed rules. If you look into some other products you can see that there were other dragons that were not Champions.
Hamanu is a special case altogether, as he was designed by Rajaat to destroy the other Champions as well as all humanity in addition to the Trolls. Therefore, this template reflects the Champions upto and not including Hamanu.
Template: Champion of Rajaat (Before Hamanu)
All stats +10
Psi-Like Abilities: Read Thoughts, Correspond, Metamorphosis at will at Manifester’s level.
Spell-Like Abilities: Detect Magic, Read Magic, Disguise Self at will at the Caster’s level.
Each Champion has one unique Epic Spell given by Rajaat to fulfill their quests.
DR 10/Epic
Grant Divine Spells to followers.
Challenge Rating: +6
Level Adjustment: +6
For Hamanu I use the following:
Template: Champion of Rajaat (Hamanu)
All stats +12
Psi-Like Abilities: Read Thoughts, Correspond, Metamorphosis at will at Manifester’s level.
Spell-Like Abilities: Detect Magic, Read Magic, Disguise Self at will at the Caster’s level.
Epic Feats: Siphon Energy (see below)
Hamanu was given the Epic Spell: Eyes of Fire to eradicate the Trolls. It works just fine on other creatures as well.
DR 20/Epic
Grant Divine Spells to followers.
Challenge Rating: +8
Level Adjustment: +8
Epic Feat: Siphon Energy
Requisites: to be determined
This feat allows the caster to steal the energy a wizard has drawn to power his own spell. This requires a Spellcraft check the DC set by a check rolled by the wizard whose power is to be stolen. Only Hamanu and Rajaat himself are known to have mastered this feat.
I don't post this to knock the work of those that created the template, but to contrast the ideas. I just think the CR and LA are just ridiculous as presented in the document, and the powers given really don't demonstrate IMO the powers hinted at by the canon.
The only thing this doesn't cover is the fact that the SK's became proficient (or more proficient as the case may be) in both psionics and arcane magic. So I propose as a side effect of the transformation to be that 10 class levels are added to the character in any combination consisting of arcane magic and psionics that the DM (Rajaat) wishes.
Xlor, I can send you again your own template, the one I reconstituted after you split it into Champion and Monarch parts. Or ask Kamelion, I sent it to him today.
Actually, I'd appreciate it. I'm not finding a lot of the stuff that used to be on my old website.
Can anyone show me the paragraphs in Wanderer's Chronicle and P&D where it is hinted at that the champions are the ones with the orbs? Is there a similar section in DK?
No one can help me here?
My memories hazy as its been a long time since I read certain DS books but could Myrons eyes of fire been some psioninc power or spell he enjoyed using due to his role vs the Trolls.
Quote:
*Note - I'm not sure if you guys are planning on creating a template for being a SK as well, so disregard if this is the case.
God, I hope there isn't plans for this.
There aren't.
Or is it just it won't be through a template?
No one can help me here?
"Drawing energy from the yellow sun, Rajaat imbued each of his Champions with immortality and the ability to draw magical energy from living creatures through the use of obsidian orbs."
(Wanderer's Chronicle, p12-13; Defilers & Preservers, p19).
Dragon Kings makes no reference at all to Rajaat or his Champions, afaik. It does talk about obsidian orbs, but only as components necessary for the dragon metamorphosis spells (and adds that they are not needed by fledgling dragons).
So the ability to grant spells to templars, the ability to hear/answer templar petitions in realtime in your mind, and a few other nifty but more obscure concepts...those won't be explained using rules?
Or is it just it won't be through a template?
Those abilities are all due to the SKs' connections with the elemental vortices. I'm not entirely sure that they even need to be statted out using the rules. After all, it would probably just look like this:
Grant Spells to Your Templars (Su): You can grant spells to your templars.
:P
The dread strike is a powerful ability, but a very limited one too, in a fight against the pcs (and it is what CR is about) it is probably worthless. the signature spell is weaker but more valuable against PCs.
The DR is 10/epic is low, the 15/bludgeoning and magic from the lich template is better, particularly against level 25+ pcs, epic weapons are more common than bludgeoning weapon at this level.
The lich template (a CR +2 template) have all the immunities from this template, less the disintegration one.
The regeneration 15 is good and worth +1 or +2 to CR, particularly with out a physical damage type affecting them normally.
SR 32 is worthless for CR 30+ creatures.
The energy storing ability is cool and powerful, but also not very useful in a combat against high level pcs.
Most of this abilities would be better to PCs than to NPCs and I think the LA should be at lest +12, but to a already high level NPC they are weak, because of it I think that a +4 or +5 to CR is more than enough
So the ability to grant spells to templars, the ability to hear/answer templar petitions in realtime in your mind, and a few other nifty but more obscure concepts...those won't be explained using rules?
Or is it just it won't be through a template?
They are the result of the elemental vortices, not the template. It will probably be listed as a supernatural ability in the SK stat blocks.
The dread strike is a powerful ability, but a very limited one too, in a fight against the pcs (and it is what CR is about) it is probably worthless. the signature spell is weaker but more valuable against PCs.
To be honest, I wouldn't mind seeing this downgraded to the non-epic bane ability in order to justify adding another ability to the template.
I like the concept of it, but Rajaat picked his best "wizards" to be his Champions not fighters. I really feel the ability to increase a spells damage and save DC vs the Champion's designated race would be more fitting. What's more effective? Instantly slaying one or two opponent's in melee with the dread weapon ability, or incinerating several dozen with a mega spell attuned to killing that specific race?
To be honest, I wouldn't mind seeing this downgraded to the non-epic bane ability in order to justify adding another ability to the template.
I like the concept of it, but Rajaat picked his best "wizards" to be his Champions not fighters. I really feel the ability to increase a spells damage and save DC vs the Champion's designated race would be more fitting. What's more effective? Instantly slaying one or two opponent's in melee with the dread weapon ability, or incinerating several dozen with a mega spell attuned to killing that specific race?
I agree with this too- Rajaat chose wizard/psions- not warriors. I really do not see them out there in every battle killing their enemy in hand to hand battle- that is why they all had armies. These may be a few exceptions to this observation, but not enough to justify all of the champs having his epic power.
Now if they all had a version of a bane strike, that may be more in line with what I imagine they could do. :D
The beginning paragraphs need tweaking (example- paragraph 2 line 1 Rajaat?s and also Champion?s in last sentence third paragraph).
That's my fault. I changed the font after I got the draft doc, and so-called "smartquotes" don't really react to that very well.
Signature Spells- I would suggest using the same language as the cleric ability of spontaneous spellcasting - it would read easier.
Energy Storing- I would leave this to the Dragon material to reduce the amount of redundancy.
But, the champions generally are powerful defilers. Now, I suppose you can raise the question about whether or not they should have the ability to drain *life* energy from animals, which is supposed to be the domain of Dragons exclusively...
Instead of breaking up the Immunities section make it all one part - but I would really like to see the Transmutation immunity removed. Also, if they are immune to ability damage would they be able to use psionic feats that like Overchannel or Body Fuel- I personally think that part should be taken out too.
Hrm. Have to look into how those feats interact with immunity to ability damage. It could be ruled that since you can't "dent" the ability, you can't pull the power needed for those feats ....
Regeneration- While I like the idea, I think Fast Healing would be better ( around 5 hp) or at least reduce the regeneration to 5 or something because it seems really too high to me. Combined with their DR right now they could effectively shrugging off 25 pts of damage per round.
Yah, it's an impressive amount ... eh, don't look at me. This wasn't one of the abilities that I was personally in favor of.
Energy Resistance- 5 fire resistance? Really? With it being this low I would just remove it.
SR/PR- what is your rational for having it be a fixed number- IMO it would be better served to make it 5 + HD.
I also have to chime in on the CR and LA- +17 and +20- wow- I really think it is too much
Well, as Kam said, there were some abilities that were removed, and we forgot to re-assess the adjustments.
I agree with this too- Rajaat chose wizard/psions- not warriors. I really do not see them out there in every battle killing their enemy in hand to hand battle- that is why they all had armies. These may be a few exceptions to this observation, but not enough to justify all of the champs having his epic power.
Now if they all had a version of a bane strike, that may be more in line with what I imagine they could do. :D
This could be reworded no doubt, but this was what I was thinking:
Bane Caster (Su): Each champion of Rajaat is created to slay a designated race. Any spell cast by a champion inflicts an addition +1 damage per damage die when effecting a member of that designated race. Additonally, members of the champion of Rajaat's designated race suffer a -5 penalty to saving throws against spells cast by the champion of Rajaat.
However, can we be a bit more imaginative (no offense) on what stops the regeneration other than pulling a Troll? I say at least nix Fire since they have that as a resistance and keep acid and replace fire with something more DSish, the same with acid as well if you don't want to keep that.
... well, Fire and Acid weakness aren't really troll workarounds. It's about burning and cauterizing the wounds, is what stops the regeneration. It's not like trolls are the only creatures that regenerate -- just the most well known. It's not a "magical" work-around to the regeneration. Heck regen isn't even Supernatural, it's Extrodinary -- it's not magical in nature.
The fire/acid weakness is "basically" boilerplate for regeneration. It's hedged with a "typically"
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/naturalSpecialAbilities.htm#regeneration
I was wondering where these had gone to. Flip?
Crap. that might explain a bit of the confusion about the adjustment levels.
Uhhh ... oops?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/naturalSpecialAbilities.htm#regeneration
Eh, will have to read when I get home...damn corporate firewall. But I can read the general wizard's d20 link on it, which doesn't go into as much detail probably.
Either way I understand where it came from, I was just hoping for something more themantic based then just sticking with the norm.
Ah well, it's not a huge issue to me, especially since it has to be energy based which kinda limits what you can make it.
Hrm. Have to look into how those feats interact with immunity to ability damage. It could be ruled that since you can't "dent" the ability, you can't pull the power needed for those feats ....
A big reason that I also bring up the immunities being reworked is due to the metamorphosis spell- the first stages of the spell were supposedly cast by Borys or Rajaat and them the other Champions turned around and cast the spell(s) on Borys- see the problem.
If the immunity to transformation holds, then the others would not have been able to cast this spell on Borys such.
I just discovered your VERY awesome website, and I have to say as a game retailer I am very impressed. I have read the Rajaat template, though, and I do have a couple of questions.
The first is, if the Champions are so frickin' powerful, how did Rikus and the others ever kill so many? Granted, the Scourge, Nok's Cane, and the Heartwood Spear are all potent artifacts; but there is no way you'll convince me that, in 3.5 rules. a LV 17 average party killed not one but three of the Champions averaging a CR of 40 or 50 (sorry, I haven't done the math yet...).
Do they even need a template? I reread all of my DS stuff, and it looked to me anyway (don't flame the newbie if I'm wrong!) like the reason Rajaat called them his Champions is, well, they were championing his cause. He used the Dark Lens to guide them through the Defiler Metamorphosis I, and it had the unexpected and unique side effect of the elemental vortices, but I never got the impression that it empowered them more than that. That's my IMHO, anyway. :D
Keep up the awesome work!
Hey guys and gals!
Do they even need a template? I reread all of my DS stuff, and it looked to me anyway (don't flame the newbie if I'm wrong!) like the reason Rajaat called them his Champions is, well, they were championing his cause. He used the Dark Lens to guide them through the Defiler Metamorphosis I, and it had the unexpected and unique side effect of the elemental vortices, but I never got the impression that it empowered them more than that. That's my IMHO, anyway. :D
Keep up the awesome work!
Welcome to the DS board.
I've long thought that when Rajaat made his Champions that he just brought them to the first level of the metamorphosis as well and I still do to a point. I think Rajaat would have granted his chosen some extra abilities to aid them with their task of eliminating the Rebirth Races which I feel that this template is trying to capture.
Hey guys and gals!
I just discovered your VERY awesome website, and I have to say as a game retailer I am very impressed. I have read the Rajaat template, though, and I do have a couple of questions.
The first is, if the Champions are so frickin' powerful, how did Rikus and the others ever kill so many? Granted, the Scourge, Nok's Cane, and the Heartwood Spear are all potent artifacts; but there is no way you'll convince me that, in 3.5 rules. a LV 17 average party killed not one but three of the Champions averaging a CR of 40 or 50 (sorry, I haven't done the math yet...).
Do they even need a template? I reread all of my DS stuff, and it looked to me anyway (don't flame the newbie if I'm wrong!) like the reason Rajaat called them his Champions is, well, they were championing his cause. He used the Dark Lens to guide them through the Defiler Metamorphosis I, and it had the unexpected and unique side effect of the elemental vortices, but I never got the impression that it empowered them more than that. That's my IMHO, anyway. :D
Keep up the awesome work!
Welcome to the boards and thanks for the compliments
How did the heroes of the saga kill so many sorcerer-monarchs? I'd say primarily through the power of the Plot McGuffin (either the Heartwood Spear or the black ooze from the Scourge). The novels never needed to worry about the game mechanics and so were quite free of their consequences. For those who want to stat these things out, it poses a few headaches, however.
As to whether they need a template, that's a really good question. My personal opinion (design work notwithstanding) is that they don't even need stats, never mind a template. Assuming that you do stat the sorcerer-monarchs out, a strict reading of the canonical game material only reveals mention of Rajaat giving them two powers: immortality and the ability to draw energy from living beings through the use of obsidian orbs. Everything else is conjecture based on the novels or speculation based on probable assessments of what a genocidal defiler/psionicist might need to carry out his or her task.
To lend even more strength to your argument, it was actually Borys' later use of the Pristine Tower and the Dark Lens that started the sorcerer-monarchs on the road to dragonhood and linked them to the elemental vortices, not Rajaat's, so the Warbringer can't even take credit for that.
Of course, we have now started down the template road, for better or worse, and it will be fun to see if we can come up with something cool and workable that adds depth and enjoyment to the setting. But you make a very good point nevertheless
.Assuming that you do stat the sorcerer-monarchs out, a strict reading of the canonical game material only reveals mention of Rajaat giving them two powers: immortality and the ability to draw energy from living beings through the use of obsidian orbs. Everything else is conjecture based on the novels or speculation based on probable assessments of what a genocidal defiler/psionicist might need to carry out his or her task.
Which would make sense if it was Rajaat bringing them to the first step of the dragon metamorphosis. Both of those abilities are granted by the first level of the dragon PrC and the first casting of the epic spell.
You could even tone down the CoR template's CR rating if that were the case.
Which would make sense if it was Rajaat bringing them to the first step of the dragon metamorphosis. Both of those abilities are granted by the first level of the dragon PrC and the first casting of the epic spell.
You could even tone down the CoR template's CR rating if that were the case.
IMO they would have to be granted immortality with the template IF Rajaat did not put them on the road to dragonhood, as the Cleansing Wars lasted for a loooong time. Maybe that should be it- immortality, a few good stat bumps, and the ability to 'feel' their chosen race within a 1 mile radius <= this would make it much easier.
IMO they would have to be granted immortality with the template IF Rajaat did not put them on the road to dragonhood, as the Cleansing Wars lasted for a loooong time. Maybe that should be it- immortality, a few good stat bumps, and the ability to 'feel' their chosen race within a 1 mile radius <= this would make it much easier.
I've long believed that the SKs never realized or questioned what Rajaat actually did to them when he turned them into his Champions. It could have been centuries later when a few of them uncovered (Borys and Dregoth) the truth in that Rajaat started them on the path to dragonhood. Even the revised Wanderer's Journal states that Rajaat himself hinted to the Champions that there was greater power awaiting them.
I've long believed that the SKs never realized or questioned what Rajaat actually did to them when he turned them into his Champions. It could have been centuries later when a few of them uncovered (Borys and Dregoth) the truth in that Rajaat started them on the path to dragonhood. Even the revised Wanderer's Journal states that Rajaat himself hinted to the Champions that there was greater power awaiting them.
Agreed- It may just be that Dregoth realized it first, developed the metamorphosis spells, told Borys during the rebellion, and everything went from there.
Here is my suggestion for those at Athas.org- make this template cool but not the uber-bomb it was first developed to be and just make the call that the life draining and immortality was an aspect of the dragon spell cast by Rajaat when he made them his Champs- it will make things a lot less complex and controversial.
Please
Personally, I don't like the idea of Rajaat turning them into Dragons. I'd rather the spell have come from one of the champions. I just tend to hate the tendancy to blame everything that's wrong on Rajaat.
They went through a thousand years of war without advancing in dragon level. Even the first level metamorphasis changes you. They weren't Dragons until after the revolt.
But, if you prefer that Rajaat had made them first level dragons, that's quite possible to do with the two different aspects. We're not speccing them out in the green age
.
Which would make sense if it was Rajaat bringing them to the first step of the dragon metamorphosis.
Here is my suggestion for those at Athas.org- make this template cool but not the uber-bomb it was first developed to be and just make the call that the life draining and immortality was an aspect of the dragon spell cast by Rajaat when he made them his Champs- it will make things a lot less complex and controversial.
This issue keeps cropping up, so I wanted to share my own take on the matter. Rajaat did not begin the transformation of the Champions into dragons - there is nothing in the game material that supports this theory. He used the nature-manipulating powers of the Pristine Tower (and possibly also the Dark Lens, according to Psionic Artifacts of Athas) to imbue "each of his Champions with immortality and the ability to draw magical energy from living creatures through the use of obsidian orbs". He hinted at a level of existence beyond that which he had granted them, promising that, through sorcery and psionics, his Champions could become as gods. This is clearly a reference to dragonhood, but it is equally clearly a state of being that they have not yet begun to experience. It is also clear that he intended for them to undergo this transformation, as "his ultimate plan required those who could combine psionics with defiling magic to transform themselves into a new type of being... a being of dark power".
However, to assume from all of this that Rajaat actually began their transformations into dragons is simply incorrect and is directly contradicted by the game material. It was Borys who did this. WC p14 states very clearly that Borys "taught them the process for taking the next step up the ladder of existence: Borys taught the sorcerer-kings how to become dragon kings. Using the Dark Lens to focus their combined magic and psionic energy, Borys began the transformations of the sorcerer-kings." It is this ceremony that also connects the sorcerer-kings to the elemental vortices. And it is following this ceremony that Borys himself is transformed into the Dragon.
I know that the waters have become somewhat muddied on these matters over time and that many compelling and interesting theories and alternate viewpoints have been put forward. The fact remains, however, that the exact course of events and the process of development of Rajaat's students into Champions and then into sorcerer-kings and dragons has been very clearly laid out ever since the Revised Boxed set presented the full history of Athas for all to see. Alternative approaches are a good source of inspiration and development, but not when they directly contradict the established game material. I strongly feel that the boxed sets should be taken as primary sources in these matters. The Wanderer's Chronicle is really very clear and I don't see any compelling reasons to alter its description of events.
Just my own opinion on this
.The fact remains, however, that the exact course of events and the process of development of Rajaat's students into Champions and then into sorcerer-kings and dragons has been very clearly laid out ever since the Revised Boxed set presented the full history of Athas for all to see. Alternative approaches are a good source of inspiration and development, but not when they directly contradict the established game material. I strongly feel that the boxed sets should be taken as primary sources in these matters. The Wanderer's Chronicle is really very clear and I don't see any compelling reasons to alter its description of events.
This is my own personal take, but its fact that Rajaat lied to his Champions in regards to his intentions on who would be ruling the new Blue Age once the Cleansing Wars were over. Whose to say that Borys wasn't deceiving his fellow SKs on the truth and nature of their transformation?
This is my own personal take, but its fact that Rajaat lied to his Champions in regards to his intentions on who would be ruling the new Blue Age once the Cleansing Wars were over. Whose to say that Borys wasn't deceiving his fellow SKs on the truth and nature of their transformation?
We cannot base official design solely on your speculation, so for the sake of this argument your personal views that contradict DS canon are a moot point. For what it's worth, I too was under the misconception that Rajaat made the SKs into dragons. Now that the facts are plain as day, I will support design based on them.
We cannot base official design solely on your speculation, so for the sake of this argument your personal views that contradict DS canon are a moot point. For what it's worth, I too was under the misconception that Rajaat made the SKs into dragons. Now that the facts are plain as day, I will support design based on them.
I wasn't asking you to base anything on my speculations I was just voicing personal opinion. But the fact remains as supported by offical canon that the SKs have lied, deceived, and betrayed each other thru out Athas' history. Its not inconceivable to beleive that Borys could have took credit for Rajaat's work in order to win over the other SKs and have them transform him into the most powerful being on the planet.
Your minor observation illustrates the erronous assumption we made when creating the Dragon rules - that energy storing comes from the Dragon Metamorphosis rather than the Champion elevation.
Are there plans to remove that ability from the dragon PrC and make energy storing the sole domain of the Champions/SKs?
I haven't said anything dumb for a while now...I just have one quiestion: "Mr. Dragon King, how could you transform into a Dragon if you are immune to transmutation spells, when the metamorphosis spell is in fact a transmutation spell?" (concerning the idea that Rajaat hadn't made them 1st stage dragons)
First of all, I'm never backwards in coming forwards; it is indeed written in the Wanderer's Chronicle that they were Champions, then sorcerer kings/dragon kings. While I admit that the earlier sections of the Chronicle muddied up what the Champions are, the wording at the end does seem pretty clear. Sorry for my laziness in checking the primary resource before my post (forgive me!) Maybe some of the confusion stems from the apparent overlap in abilities of epic dragons and Champions? Both groups have immortality and the energy orb thing going on; couple that with the fact that the Champs are supposed to have become the first dragons, and it gets a little funky!
Secondly, I am SO SORRY if I in any way stated or implied that the template is a stupid idea or a waste of time. This site and the people on it work very hard to provide superior gaming material for FREE, and I would never insult anyone's hard work or effort to make the world more enjoyable. I just wanted to express worry that the sorcerer kings were being made too unreachable for epic storylines by adding more powers. Thousands of years of experience as a sorcerer king makes you tough enough (well, except maybe Wyan. Pixies? How did he luck out? Hmmmmm...). That being said, I wholly agree that we should make it as fun as possible! :D
Here's my idea, from the wee hours of the morn. If the worry the majority of us have is that we're making the SKs too powerful, let's turn it on it's head. How about a refocus of the template abilities on the unseen forces of the Cleansing: the troops. Rajaat empowered his CHamps to go eliminate the other races, and they took off with ginormous armies to do it. Let's face it, even with a really cool smite ability Borys would still be killing dwarves today if he had to do it by himself. What about giving them abilities that have to do with empowering the troops, like once per day all soldiers under a given king's banner treat their weapons as +1 bane weapons for the given race? This makes them more deadly to their given race, but doesn't make them unbalanced for those who want to go one-on-one with them. It would also explain why no sorcerer king's army had lost an open field engagement; the SK's powers only work when the SK joins them on the field. Plus, it sorta fits in with those troops later becoming the templars; the pinpricks in the elemental planes that might empower the troops would later attract the vortices that bond to the SKs. Just a 2am idea.
Happy turkey day, everyone!
Hey boys!
I haven't said anything dumb for a while now...I just have one quiestion: "Mr. Dragon King, how could you transform into a Dragon if you are immune to transmutation spells, when the metamorphosis spell is in fact a transmutation spell?" (concerning the idea that Rajaat hadn't made them 1st stage dragons)
You're not the first to voice that concern, and the thought did cross my mind during the somewhat rushed design process. It's a valid point, and I am in favor of removing the transmutation immunity.
You're not the first to voice that concern, and the thought did cross my mind during the somewhat rushed design process. It's a valid point, and I am in favor of removing the transmutation immunity.
I always thought a being could drop its immunities more or less at will. A Lich can still use shapechange/polymorph for example even though its normally immune to such attacks.
Spell Immunity (Ex): A creature with spell immunity avoids the effects of spells and spell-like abilities that directly affect it. This works exactly like spell resistance, except that it cannot be overcome. Sometimes spell immunity is conditional or applies to only spells of a certain kind or level. Spells that do not allow spell resistance are not affected by spell immunity.
and....
"....A creature can voluntarily lower its spell resistance...."
Are there plans to remove that ability from the dragon PrC and make energy storing the sole domain of the Champions/SKs?
This was never addressed. I'm just curious as to what athas.org's stance is going to be in light of that Rajaat made his chosen 15 into "Champions" and not Dragons.
This was never addressed. I'm just curious as to what athas.org's stance is going to be in light of that Rajaat made his chosen 15 into "Champions" and not Dragons.
Still discussing it.
To delve into this idea a bit deeper, it could be that its just the dragon magic ability from the Athasian Dragon PrC that Rajaat granted them thru the Champion template and that energy storing was the result of the SKs own personal research.
In short, move the dragon magic ability from the Dragon PrC and make it a Champion only ability (calling it something else obviously) and remove the energy storing ability from the template entirely.
I have a theory. What if the energy storing of a Champion is not as great as a dragon's? It could be that after Rajaat's imprisonment the Champion's/SK's developed the ability to drain the life energy from others to a greater degree than that bestowed by their master.
To delve into this idea a bit deeper, it could be that its just the dragon magic ability from the Athasian Dragon PrC that Rajaat granted them thru the Champion template and that energy storing was the result of the SKs own personal research.
In short, move the dragon magic ability from the Dragon PrC and make it a Champion only ability (calling it something else obviously) and remove the energy storing ability from the template entirely.
The problem with that is that "dragon magic" is actually specified to be an ability of the dragons not of the Champions by the fluff......
The problem with that is that "dragon magic" is actually specified to be an ability of the dragons not of the Champions by the fluff......
By the fluff of the PrC that athas.org created which was drawn on flawed sources. Easily changed. I honestly feel this is the best fix for both the Champion Template and the Dragon PrC.
My thought is that energy storing is a dragon only ability, but as champions they could only draw life energy from living creatures and not store it. Rajaat gave them this ability only for the purpose of the CWs. Just a thought...
Thats what I just stated in my above post ;)
Question for the Epic peeps- What kind of timeline do you have for an updated release of this template? Dregoth is going to officially be statted in DAIII so I was just wondering if the template was going to be rereleased before it appeared in the adventure.
The discussion (for once) is actually going hot-and-heavy right now. I've even been putting an effort to provide input (finals and catch-up homework be damned!) so hopefully it will pan out and produce a updated version of the template. We were also going over what Dregoth should look like stat-wise, and I think are now basically waiting on the template's review to finish that up.
The discussion (for once) is actually going hot-and-heavy right now. I've even been putting an effort to provide input (finals and catch-up homework be damned!) so hopefully it will pan out and produce a updated version of the template. We were also going over what Dregoth should look like stat-wise, and I think are now basically waiting on the template's review to finish that up.
I was hoping that I would be able to give you fellows my version of the Big D and have that one be used in the adventure- but if not then its all good.
Thats what I just stated in my above post ;)
oh...then I didn't understand it...sorry :embarrass
oh...then I didn't understand it...sorry :embarrass
No big deal. I took the overly complicated wordy approach in stating that. ;)
Another option is to still remove the energy storing ability from the template and increase the damage dealt to creatures when the Champion defiles and have it stack with the dragon magic ability of the dragon PrC. Example, a non-champion dragon only drains 2 points of damage per level of spell to those caught in it's defiling radius where as a champion drains 3 or 4.
And because of that a Champions spell could automatically be extended, maximized or enlarged (could stack with the feats they already have?)....maybe I'm way off here, but I'm just trying to see it from the angle of them being the first sorcerer's champs. Because he was using them for the purpose of destroying all the new races, he might have given them the ability of epic enlarge, epic maximize and epic extend. Something in that direction, something big, I mean let's face it they were made by Rajaat, the DUDE so I see the champions as far more competetive than they are now, because they imprisoned the first sorcerer, the DUDE who made magic and mixed it up with psionics....he's the father and they are his children.... :evillaugh
By the fluff of the PrC that athas.org created which was drawn on flawed sources. Easily changed. I honestly feel this is the best fix for both the Champion Template and the Dragon PrC.
Actually the ability to use animal life to power spells has been reffered to as "dragon magic" in the original novels.... and it specified that Dragons were the ones able to use animal life to power their spells..... in all of 2nd edition it specified that the ability to drain animal life to power magic was an ability of the Dragons...... This was the source we used to classify the dragon magic as an ability for the PrC. So what flawed sources are you reffering to? the original box set of darksun? the pentad novels? dragon kings? which.... all of the above and many more state that the ability to use animal life to power spells is a Dragon ability not a champion ability...... However the ability to store energy was only mentioned in passing and never given stats in 2ed so it is easier to say that it
However the ability to store energy was only mentioned in passing and never given stats in 2ed so it is easier to say that it is a champion only ability without ignoring the prior sources.
Note your solution helps get rid of some inconsistencies (ie Nok and the like) but it does not fit what is actually written in the prior edition and in the pentad itself.
but that is just an idea
Actually the ability to use animal life to power spells has been reffered to as "dragon magic" in the original novels.... and it specified that Dragons were the ones able to use animal life to power their spells..... in all of 2nd edition it specified that the ability to drain animal life to power magic was an ability of the Dragons...... This was the source we used to classify the dragon magic as an ability for the PrC. So what flawed sources are you reffering to? the original box set of darksun? the pentad novels? dragon kings? which.... all of the above and many more state that the ability to use animal life to power spells is a Dragon ability not a champion ability...... However the ability to store energy was only mentioned in passing and never given stats in 2ed so it is easier to say that it
All of the above would be flawed due to being inconsistent to one another and the more recent material. The revised boxed set states that Rajaat imbued the SKs with the ability to draw magical energy from living creatures when he made them Champions. The other sources state its an ability gained from being a dragon. The earlier 2E DS material/mechanics didn't take into account that there were "Dragons" and "Champions". In short, a judgement call needs to be made. The easiest of which being to tag the energy storing ability to the Dragon PrC and placing the ability draw life energy from living creatures to the Champion template as pointed out in the revised Wanderer's Chronicle.
Champions are to me ultimately relatively uninteresting. No one else is going to become a Champion, at least without circumstances that would have to be essentially unique. On the other hand, characters have the potential to become Dragons and that is an impressive and worthwhile goal (in roleplaying terms anyway). Since D&D is and should be about the PCs more than anything else, the most attention and interest should be placed on things PCs can potentially achieve.
What's more badass than draining the life from your enemies to fuel the spell that then finishes them off? If that ultimate ability of a Dragon is instead given to Champions only, where's the fun in becoming a Dragon.
All of the above would be flawed due to being inconsistent to one another and the more recent material. The revised boxed set states that Rajaat imbued the SKs with the ability to draw magical energy from living creatures when he made them Champions. The other sources state its an ability gained from being a dragon. The earlier 2E DS material/mechanics didn't take into account that there were "Dragons" and "Champions". In short, a judgement call needs to be made. The easiest of which being to tag the energy storing ability to the Dragon PrC and placing the ability draw life energy from living creatures to the Champion template as pointed out in the revised Wanderer's Chronicle.
If you bicker about that, then you'll find that anything can be made to look flawed. Athas.org has to weigh what's good or not. Considering the weight of resources that point to the animal life-energy being "Dragon Magic", as opposed to the one resource, which has some other dubious elements in it, that says Rajaat gave that exclusively to his Champions.
Personally, when it comes to the W.J. vs. the W.C., on inconsistancies between them, I'll favor the W.J. (time-specific elements portraying events after those listed in the WJ are of course excluded from this for the most part). The W.C. seems... well.... hokey at times. It contradicts a lot of the already established setting (albeit not as much as Dim Sun does), and has tended to cause more problems than it has helped. However, I do use a personally-restructured merger between the WJ and WC for my campaigns -- in an effort to rectify the differences (no I can't share it, don't ask me for a copy).
The easiest of which being to tag the energy storing ability to the Dragon PrC and placing the ability draw life energy from living creatures to the Champion template as pointed out in the revised Wanderer's Chronicle.
Maybe this is a legal move, and one that should be taken by athas.org, but here is my humble opinion: flavorwise, it SUCKS!
Dragons are the ones who leech life, they also walk around with orbs. I can't believe a stupid one-liner in one book is gonna bring down what years of boarding have demonstrated the fans think in their heads, i.e. dragons leech life and walk around with orbs.
Champions are already supposed to be powerful, and personaly I never saw a connection between dragons and champions in reading PP. I strongly wish the dragon abilities be left to dragons, and the champions abilities be written without overlapping on the dragon ones.
If a newbie fan, 3 years from now, comes on this board after downloading the dragon rules and asks Why don't dragons have dragon magic? And why don't they no longer carry orbs? And the answer to that is Oh its all been ported to champions now, so effectively all new dragons can't have any of those abilities, and effectively only the remaining four SKs have that ability, sorry, well that would suck big time for that newbie.
Just to add my 2 cp, I have to say it would be a real shame to change Dragons so that they didn't drain animal life. That's been the basic premise of Dragon magic all along and fits perfectly with the defiler's ever increasing lust for power.
Champions are to me ultimately relatively uninteresting. No one else is going to become a Champion, at least without circumstances that would have to be essentially unique. On the other hand, characters have the potential to become Dragons and that is an impressive and worthwhile goal (in roleplaying terms anyway). Since D&D is and should be about the PCs more than anything else, the most attention and interest should be placed on things PCs can potentially achieve.
What's more badass than draining the life from your enemies to fuel the spell that then finishes them off? If that ultimate ability of a Dragon is instead given to Champions only, where's the fun in becoming a Dragon.
CSK sums it up better than me. The fun of dragons is based on the promess that was made in 2E about their powers. Make those powers exclusive to Champions and you break the fun of playing dragons or wannaba dragons.
Personally, I don't see the big deal in having some abilities that overlap between the PrC and the Template anymore. It's not likely there is going to be made new Champions of Rajaat, just Dragons, so what harm does it do?
You guys are putting way to much effort into something PC's will never attain and well you guys kind of seam like you are never going to agree on it.
Yea it would be great if the champs had lots of cool stuff... but really they probly didn't. Rajat Probly only gave then just enough to help in their tasks. I mean really if you where the "ultimate" magic wheedling creator of magic as well as most probably either NE or LE (because we know for darn sure he isn't good nor would a true neutral bring back the green age in such a destructive way and he was way to driven to be chaotic.) would actually beef up someone he planed to off latter? In other terms if you wanted a group killed what would you supply the assassin with? a 9mm and a box maybe two boxes of ammo and 2 extra clips, a Russian AK-47 4 clips and a few hundred rounds, a few truck loads of C4, or a 50 mega ton nuke? Personally I'm CN I would opt for choice 1 maybe option 2 depending on the size of the group and the skills the assassin already has... but the champions had an extra advantage.. They were generals of army’s; you don't need an army if you are loaded up with nukes.
If a template is needed it probly should only be stat increases like int and con for bonus spells and HP they were after all wizards they would have benefited most from those; also str and dex if they were going to do hand to hand. Cha is a defendant because you need a high CHA to lead all the troops. Some immunities or spell resistance would be great maybe regen but they wouldn't really need it unless they were going to personally do battle which i think at least one did.. But didn't that one die? a DR/metal , dr/psionics or dr/magic would be good. But nothing that should give them an amazing show stopping ability I would think no more that a CR increase of 3 to 5 tops. You have to remember rajat planed on killing them off along with all the humans an evil character isn't going to arm the ones he plans on double crossing with high end abilities, weapons, or armor, not high end enough to come close to touching them at least. I know everyone wants rajat to be like level 100 or so but how many champions did he have and how many in the army's of the champions? He would have to kill them all off personally unless he made a halfling champ, I don't know about you guys but i think that even if he was a CR 100 with a few million or so going after him someone is bound to catch him off guard or get a lucky shot right? no way an evil character is going to allow that possibly, especially not a single mindedly driven, possibly insane (or at least an evil genius master mind) one.
With that said, I say the easiest fix is to grant the Champion template an ability similar to dragon magic (calling it something else) that stacks with the actual dragon magic ability of the Dragon PrC. Furthermore, I'd remove the energy storage ability from the Champion template completely leaving it a power of the Dragon PrC only.
I agree with those who think Dragon magic (life-draining radius) should remain a Dragon PrC ability. My issue with removing the Energy Storing feature from the Dragon PrC to the Champion template is that would remove the aspect of sacrifice of living beings when casting the defiler metamorphosis spells. If it is decided that Energy Storing be ported to Champions, then I insist we must include the sacrifice as an ad hoc mitigating factor to the metamorphosis spells.
Personally, I don't see the big deal in having some abilities that overlap between the PrC and the Template anymore. It's not likely there is going to be made new Champions of Rajaat, just Dragons, so what harm does it do?
I don't think it would interfere with the need for the sacrifice of living beings for the spells. The general view of animal (and specifically, sentient) life-energy that is presented in the 2E materials is that it is more powerful than the energy from plants. If the spells required an inordinate amount of power to be cast, so much that it requires the sacrifice of living beings just to achieve it, then that just is added in as a cost to the spell. I'm not saying it should be a mitigating factor -- just that it is a cost, like the money, XP, and so forth for the epic spell line. A cost I'd rather see scale up at an exponential rate than be some linear increase at each stage. Combine this requirement with what the Champions can do to get around the XP requirement for their spells (by storing life-energy in orbs), this results in a plausable explanation as to why Kalak could have needed the entire city of Tyr's population to be sacrificed for his Dragonhood.
CSK sums it up better than me. The fun of dragons is based on the promess that was made in 2E about their powers. Make those powers exclusive to Champions and you break the fun of playing dragons or wannaba dragons.
So energy storing, duplex, psionic enchantment, and breathing super heated sand isn't fun?
Just to add my 2 cp, I have to say it would be a real shame to change Dragons so that they didn't drain animal life. That's been the basic premise of Dragon magic all along and fits perfectly with the defiler's ever increasing lust for power.
Champions are to me ultimately relatively uninteresting. No one else is going to become a Champion, at least without circumstances that would have to be essentially unique. On the other hand, characters have the potential to become Dragons and that is an impressive and worthwhile goal (in roleplaying terms anyway). Since D&D is and should be about the PCs more than anything else, the most attention and interest should be placed on things PCs can potentially achieve.
What's more badass than draining the life from your enemies to fuel the spell that then finishes them off? If that ultimate ability of a Dragon is instead given to Champions only, where's the fun in becoming a Dragon.
All I was saying, that as champions they would get more powerful spells than other dragons. I never said that the ability to draw life energy from living creatures should be removed from the Dragon PrC. No no, I'm with you there. Dragons naturally suck life out of everything around them. Whether they are drawing life from creatures to empower their spells or just with their presence and HUGE ego. You know what I mean? What I meant was that because they are the champions of Rajaat they are more powerful than other Dragons, that were not made by Rajaat.
A cost I'd rather see scale up at an exponential rate than be some linear increase at each stage. Combine this requirement with what the Champions can do to get around the XP requirement for their spells (by storing life-energy in orbs), this results in a plausable explanation as to why Kalak could have needed the entire city of Tyr's population to be sacrificed for his Dragonhood.
Casting all 10 metamorphosis spells in quick succession would require a lot of life energy. I would use the number of sacrifices listed in Dragon Kings for each stage, since I see no reason to change that amount.
Yes I know that S.K. didn't gain this ability until the transoformation in to Dragon Kings, but the whole templarhood affair seems just too useful in a genocide tipe of war to be left otside the Cleansing Wars.
If to guarant this divine spells the army was bound to continually slaughter the chosen prey, we have an elegant, self suppressing (no more prey=no more casting templars), powerfully motivating (may be channelling and reciving this kind of energy was plesant), ability that constitue a rasonable precursor of the one gained with the more stable elemental wortex (it also explains why now it is no more in use).
The revised boxed set states that Rajaat imbued the SKs with the ability to draw magical energy from living creatures when he made them Champions, it didn't state that this energy was drawn troug defiling, a province exlusive of dragon magic, if the energy is drawn by the act of killing in the name of sometingh, wll this technically is a sacrifice the way BoVD explains it!
There is alwais a way to solve inconsistencies if you try it hard enough and are prepared to use the fine art of the white lie...
It would be cool to imbue Champion of Rajaat template with the need for the sacrifice of living beings for the spells, not teyr own but the ones guaranted to templars.
Yes I know that S.K. didn't gain this ability until the transoformation in to Dragon Kings, but the whole templarhood affair seems just too useful in a genocide tipe of war to be left otside the Cleansing Wars.
If to guarant this divine spells the army was bound to continually slaughter the chosen prey, we have an elegant, self suppressing (no more prey=no more casting templars), powerfully motivating (may be channelling and reciving this kind of energy was plesant), ability that constitue a rasonable precursor of the one gained with the more stable elemental wortex (it also explains why now it is no more in use).
The revised boxed set states that Rajaat imbued the SKs with the ability to draw magical energy from living creatures when he made them Champions, it didn't state that this energy was drawn troug defiling, a province exlusive of dragon magic, if the energy is drawn by the act of killing in the name of sometingh, wll this technically is a sacrifice the way BoVD explains it!
There is alwais a way to solve inconsistencies if you try it hard enough and are prepared to use the fine art of the white lie...
Except that most of the materials point to that Borys was the one who, when using the Dark Lens after the revolt, caused the Champions to be able to grant Templar spells, not Rajaat. That is what we are working with. So the Champion of Rajaat template will not have anything to do with Templars in it.
Except that most of the materials point to that Borys was the one who, when using the Dark Lens after the revolt, caused the Champions to be able to grant Templar spells, not Rajaat. That is what we are working with. So the Champion of Rajaat template will not have anything to do with Templars in it.
Yuo, tank you for precising.
So IF the campion HAD a similar ability before and Boris incidentally riggered a new and better use of it?
Our sources don't recognise it, nor tehy negate it...
Just because something would have been useful to them doesn't mean that they would have to have had it. d20 hit dice would have been useful to them as well.
Regardless, Templar spell-granting is handled thusly:
It's a separate aspect from both the Champion of Rajaat template and the Dragon Metamorphasis.
I say again: Spell-granting is not tied to either Champion or Dragon.
There are a couple of reasons for this. 1) So that Dragons can be worked out independantly, and so that there aren't 2 versions of Dragons floating around (with spell-granting and without) ... Remeber that new dragons don't gain the spell-granting ability. 2) It allows us to punt the decision. If green-age champions just HAVE to have templars, than it's feasable, without needing to rewrite our CoR templates. And if you go by the cannon of DK, where spell-granting didn't come around until the Brown Age, than you can go that route, without having to rewrite the CoR or Dragon templates.
Modularity is a wonderful thing.
NOTE - this does NOT preclude the possibility that the templars might've cast spells through other means, ie. cleric levels, defiler levels....
so....Myron having a cadre of fire-spell wielding templars is still possible. They'd merely be casters with a penchant for fire spells, and possibly the secular authority feat (ie, templars in title, not necessarily in class).
You know, most people here try to resolve the contradictions, not introduce new ones ...
OK le's train to remain polite.
1)the main problem is that when the templar/Sk/Dragon thing was introduced and until after Dragon King, there was not such a thing like champions 'cause there was not any Rajaat to make them.
2)IMHO i was tring to find a rationale over an ability that would surely be more useful in the cleansing wars than after, mine was presented as an hypotesis....sorry if my post disturbed your work
OK le's train to remain polite.
You're telling.... Flip to remain polite..... hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.....gasp.....hahahahahahahahahaha
:heehee :heehee :heehee :heehee :heehee :heehee :heehee
1)the main problem is that when the templar/Sk/Dragon thing was introduced and until after Dragon King, there was not such a thing like champions 'cause there was not any Rajaat to make them.
You see.... it was introduced before that -- in the Prism Pentad. DS1 (the first boxed set) was released with the basis being that information/material would be revealed through the Prism Pentad. DS2 (the second boxed set) was released with that information from the books more or less filled in finally. Well, I'm pretty sure how it all was intended, even if it didn't quite get executed perfectly in that order. Now... in DS1, there was one Dragon. In DS1, there was no Champions. In DS1, the Sorcerer-Kings reigned supreme, there was no Rajaat, there was no Cleansing Wars, none of that. So if you are going to conveniently remove a book from the series that was made between DS1 and DS2, you might as well remove everything else past it. If you do that, then you can make the SK's however you want, and don't worry about any of it.
2)IMHO i was tring to find a rationale over an ability that would surely be more useful in the cleansing wars than after, mine was presented as an hypotesis....sorry if my post disturbed your work
Occam's Razor suggests that you are really reaching for your claim. If you want to add more confusion, complications, and contradictions to materials to suit your campaigns, great, go ahead and do it. Nobody's going to stop you. The Athas.org team, however, has to weigh the materials as they exist from the 2E books (and won't just book "Dragon Kings" to the side, the book is actually quite good and useful!), and then when there are gaps, maybe try to color it in as well as we can. We have to follow a rather interesting set of rules when it comes to making the rules put there, in order to keep the Official saction of Wizards of the Coast like we have. Wild tangents like you proposed are fun to discuss, but when the job's done, we've gotta stick with what's there (and smooth out the rough edges).
OK le's train to remain polite.
As far as media richness goes, these boards are on the low end of the scale; with asyncronomous comunication through a medium that is mostly limited to textual presentation, messages are relatively easily misinterpreted. I can't see that Flip meant any harm from what he wrote.
OK le's train to remain polite.
QUOTING MYSELF....OMG!
le's train runs on the rails.....le is a passenger on a running train to hell
it was a: let's tray (me and myself)
In Italian we (foregin devils
) have a lessical form called Self Vocative, something on the line of "friends, romans, fellow citzens" in which the writer asks Himself to do something like better explain himself or, like in my case, to remain polite.to be onest in english it seems a normal vocative and so directed to the reader.
It seems that the D.S. board have an higher lecterary standard than other elsewere, it is so difficult to match it thinking in a lenguage and than translating it on the run... :D expecially without a computer assisted spelling program like the one i normally use :D
think of me like a kalakian speaker in the novels of Diskworld
