Sean also mentioned that the sample animus will be a minor Aerdy noble of his own creation.
http://paizo.com/dragon/messageboards/generalDiscussion/animus
I'm surprised no one else has posted this, but Dragon Magazine #339 will feature an article by Sean K. Reynolds that updates monsters from several campaign classics including Ravenloft, Mystara, and Greyhawk. Two definite entries include the animus template and the xvart.
When did "Campaign Classics" become "LGJ reprints"? Come on, give us something new. I'm sure some fans will accept the "but, but, but Sean updated it to 3.5e!" I won't. Perhaps this time he can remember the fact that xvarts are closesly tied to Raxivort...
Sean also mentioned that the sample animus will be a minor Aerdy noble of his own creation.
http://paizo.com/dragon/messageboards/generalDiscussion/animus
Great, more meddling by the last great hope for Greyhawk canon...
I'm almost afraid now to see what's in store for Mystara and Ravenloft.
Great, more meddling by the last great hope for Greyhawk canon...
Right, because we all know how much Canonfire articles adhere to Greyhawk "canon." Besides, Greyhawk "canon" never dictates a fixed number of animuses, so why can't a minor noble be accounted for?
Maybe you're not grateful for what little bits and peices we get, but I am. If you don't like it, then stick to "Canonfodder" where "non-canon" is seemingly permitted.
Right, because we all know how much Canonfire articles adhere to Greyhawk "canon." Besides, Greyhawk "canon" never dictates a fixed number of animuses, so why can't a minor noble be accounted for?
Maybe you're not grateful for what little bits and peices we get, but I am. If you don't like it, then stick to "Canonfodder" where "non-canon" is seemingly permitted.
Listen up son, it's time to learn you about canon and canonfire.
Canonfire does not have to acknowledge canon, that is the whole point of the site, for people to share their material.
When Sean Reynolds writes a book with a Greyhawk logo on it, or an article for the Living Greyhawk Journal, he needs to acknowledge canon. Xvarts are servants of the Rat Lord, that is a fact that no amount of wishing by Sean or excuses by you will dismiss.
And on a related note, this is a forum. That implies discussion. If you merely want to kiss Sean's rear end and hear no alternative points of view, I kindly refer you to www.seankreynolds.com
Any guess as to why I declined?
My version of Wee Jas and her church, while quite detailed and, IMO, cool, is not canon and could not be canon without a major reworking of the material. I have no desire to force feed my ideas about GH to the masses, those who want to see my work can find it at "canonfodder".
Listen up son, it's time to learn you about canon and canonfire.
Canonfire does not have to acknowledge canon, that is the whole point of the site, for people to share their material.
When Sean Reynolds writes a book with a Greyhawk logo on it, or an article for the Living Greyhawk Journal, he needs to acknowledge canon. Xvarts are servants of the Rat Lord, that is a fact that no amount of wishing by Sean or excuses by you will dismiss.
What does this have to do with the new animus NPC that you strongly opposed due to "meddling" of Greyhawk canon?
And on a related note, this is a forum. That implies discussion. If you merely want to kiss Sean's rear end and hear no alternative points of view, I kindly refer you to www.seankreynolds.com
Son? Sorry, I just can't take you as seriously now. Anyway...
Firstly, there is no reason why creating a new NPC who is a minor Aerdy noble breaks canon.
Secondly, you're right, this is a forum, and as such, I can tell you that I disagree with your statement regarding Sean Reynolds ruining your precious canon by making a new NPC character for Greyhawk. In fact, I'm going to take advantage of this forum even moreso by telling you that I think an article, regardless of whether it's from an official source, doesn't necessarily have to be canon in your campaign setting.
And for the record, I'm not kissing anyone's rear. I have no favoritism for any single author or developer. I don't have those LGJ articles so I'm just happy to see a revised animus in a current article, which is why I decided to share with this forum. It also happens to benefit me in regards to events in my current campaign.
I mean - I appreciate Erik's hard work, but critters like animus... animuses? animi?... the black treant and the cataboligne are among my few opportunities to throw real surprises at the monster-manual-memorizers in my posse. ;)
I've been playing head games with those kinds of players for years. My favorite is from the 2E Realms, where I had the fire giantess as LN rather than LE, and I let her have a ring of frost resistance as well. Oh were they steamed when their favorite spells didn't work on her.
Then they broke out the death spells.
Oggie
Firstly, there is no reason why creating a new NPC who is a minor Aerdy noble breaks canon.
It's not the material, it's the author. IMO, Sean's contributions to greyhawk lore are dubious at best. As someone else pointed out, Scarlet Brotherhood is, IMO, the single most disappointing GH supplement to date, chock full of instances where a little more research or creativity would have went huge distances toward making the material interesting and fresh. For the record, I didn't even read the NPC that was linked to, and I haven't read Sean's Boccob piece. I don't plan to. As I said before, Sean's FR work is decent, and I've used it in the past when I've dabbled in that setting, but I've come to a point where I disregard his GH contributions completely.
And for the record, I'm not kissing anyone's rear. I have no favoritism for any single author or developer.
Well then, pray tell, why did you feel the need to bring up the comparison between Sean's work, and that of the contributors to canonfire?
If you'd like an example of how I "fixed" one of Sean's contributions to greyhawk lore, go to canonfire and read my article on Sheldomar region xvarts. IMO, it is far truer to the spirit of the setting than the LGJ article it was based on.
Well then, pray tell, why did you feel the need to bring up the comparison between Sean's work, and that of the contributors to canonfire?
Because I find it hypocritical for one to advocate a web site dedicated to unofficial content that is strictly non-canon for a campaign setting while complaining about "meddling" with canon for the same setting. How can one be so critical of canon if one is liberated enough to make up one's own canon? Anyway, there's obviously a strong difference of opinion on the value of the upcoming article, particularly with one end of the argument so strongly based on the author's credibility, and we should probably let it rest by simply agreeing that we disagree.
Because I find it hypocritical for one to advocate a web site dedicated to unofficial content that is strictly non-canon for a campaign setting while complaining about "meddling" with canon for the same setting.
Canonfire dedicated to "unofficial" material?
Ok, just because fan material on CF! is treated as a poor cousin to published material by some, it doesnt excuse poorly done published material in any case, since I havent veiwed the article in question I reserve judgement. But I am interested in seeing Boccob and some of the other stuff redone, but would like to see new material as well.
In any case for those who may care, Canonfire! doenst really hold fan material posted there over published material (although its easy to see the confusion over such, as many of the LGG authors are regular contributors there, just like SKR), neither does it exclude published material that adheres to some sort of 'canon'.
Canon, for the record is what you make of it, either in play or development in your personal GH campaign play, and the amazing power of being a DM is the ability to just either change/adapt what you like and disregard what you dont like. It really boils down if you, yourself find it relevant or useful, anything else is opinion.
Because I find it hypocritical for one to advocatea website
At the point of your attack on CF, I had done so where in this thread? Or hell, anywhere on this forum in the last, oh, 6 months?
At the point of your attack on CF, I had done so where in this thread? Or hell, anywhere on this forum in the last, oh, 6 months?
Your advocacy is implied by your participation on the web site. Regardless of whether or not you have expressed advocacy, it's still odd to present such strong resentment over "official" canon while you create and use unofficial material in your own canon. As defining one's own canon is a perfectly acceptable practice for any DM, it shouldn't matter whether or not an author "meddles" anyway.
Just to be clear, the issue isn't over the definition of canon; it's the condemning of perceived "meddling" by an author for whom you seem to have a personal distaste especially over something as trivial as creating an NPC as a sample for a template.
Your advocacy is implied by your participation on the web site.
Speaking of hypocrasy...
http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=Your_Account&op=userinfo&username=Amaril
Get off my case, fanboy. I don't like SKR's greyhawk work, and it's my right to say so here.
Buy Dragon or don't buy it. Make up your own stats, borrow someone else's, or lift them from a magazine; it's your choice. I'm glad that writers are doing this stuff, although I may or may not agree with it when I read it. I was certainly unhappy with the new 20HD banshee (was it in MM2? That's about as canon as you can get). So I just changed it to 7HD like the old rules; who's to stop me?
I'm just sorry that I already did my write ups of Ahlissa and the Sea Princes, so all that effort making up stats for xvarts and animuses may have been for nothing!
Speaking of hypocrasy...
http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=Your_Account&op=userinfo&username=Amaril
Get off my case, fanboy. I don't like SKR's greyhawk work, and it's my right to say so here.
fanboy? and what exactly am I a fanboy for?
Yes, I have an account on Canonfire. How is that hypocrisy? I never claimed to have a problem with content on Canonfire. I just don't understand how one who uses unofficial content can be concerned with "official" canon. That's not to say unofficial content is invalid or useless.
Anyway, this conversation has become tiresome and boring. I've already conceded to agreeing to disagree. You don't like Sean Reynold's work and are concerned with official meddling with canon, and I have no concerns with any source of material meddling with canon because I choose to do with my Greyhawk as I wish, including possibly using a new NPC minvor Aerdy noble as provided by any author, not just SeanReynolds.
Your advocacy is implied by your participation on the web site.
Well in that case Amaril, your participation on these boards does in fact make you an active advocate, despite your saying:
I have no favoritism for any single author or developer.
Indeed, your participation in Canonfire! by being a member doesn't seem to have made you an advocate as Chatdemon noted. Further, despite this:
I never claimed to have a problem with content on Canonfire.
You do seem to have some issues with the content:
If you don't like it, then stick to "Canonfodder" where "non-canon" is seemingly permitted.
So you might want to decide which it is.
But more directly, you seem confused as to how and why people who create non-canon material are concerned about what becomes canon.
First and foremost I refer to the HAG (Heretics Against Greyhawk) principle as expressed by Montand that a heretic has to know canon better than anyone else because he has to know what he is altering, why he is altering it, and be prepared to defend it against a hoard of ranting canonistas.
Just because I have articles on Canonfire! doesn't mean I don't know or care about canon. Indeed in my case, my articles stand as a combination of just how much I do know about canon, as well as being an example of what can be done as a result.
Next you seem to be trying to assert that someone who develops new material must have no concern over what new material is added to the canon base. While that might be true of some people with widely divergent presentations, it is definitely not true of people like myself. Any addition to the canon affects my material. That is independent of course of my basic desire as a fan of the setting to see that only quality additions are made to the setting canon. The added affect it will have on me having to either revise my materials or add notes of the increased divergence just means I have a more personal stake in the matter.
Finally you state you simply don't care about the quality of material added. Now I can't actually understand that. If you don't care about the quality, why are you bothering with the setting? But even if you do, why do you then feel the need to jump on people who do care about the quality? And why would you even care about the content on Canonfire?
So disagree all you want. I'm not sure why you would want to disagree that high quality material is better than low quality material, but if that is what you like, whatever.
First and foremost I refer to the HAG (Heretics Against Greyhawk) principle as expressed by Montand that a heretic has to know canon better than anyone else because he has to know what he is altering, why he is altering it, and be prepared to defend it against a hoard of ranting canonistas.
This is a telling statement. If a heretic author is held to a higher standard, we as fans should certainly hope published GH authors put as must research into their works. Most get it right and their work reflects previous authors' hard work all the way back to Gygax, but there is just as many published efforts that will seem rushed, watered down (Core) or just careless. Getting back on topic sort of, I haven't seen 339 yet but to those of us who have the LGJ already, xvarts and animuses 3.5 conversion or not, should feel this is a retread of SKR's stuff and not something to be impressed by.
I think I see where Amaril is coming from, at least. The point is this campaign is for all of us. Chatdemon doesn't have to use SKR's work anymore than Amaril has to use a lot of what he reads on canonfire. SKR is an enthusiast for the campaign and he's writing to provide us with fresh material. It shouldn't be a problem if he adds something to canon, especially something as trivial as an animus noble. Every single lord of Aerdy has yet to be detailed, and insisting that an author can't create one would be to say that they should remain undetailed. Who cares? If you don't like his write-up, you don't have to use it. But please don't put down those of us who don't mind such additions to existing canon.
Now whether or not SKR has conflicted with existing canon in previous works is an entirely different matter, and one I don't feel qualified to address since I really haven't read most of it (despite the fact that I own it all ;) ), save for the LGG. What, exactly, are the glaring incongruities with existing canon that he has introduced that make you dislike his work? I'm not implying that there aren't any, just genuinely curious.
Personally, I view Greyhawk material as a buffet. It's all there out in the open for me to pick and choose what I like. I may select the salad while another person prefers the pork. We're still all playing Greyhawk and it doesn't mean we can't get along with each other.
My gripe with Sean is his clearly stated ignoring of anything canon on Aerdy nobles and using "a guy I made up" (direct quote yall). Why not dig up a minor noble from Ivid the Undying? Why not write up Ivid himself for d20? In my experience as a fan and reader, when Sean is updating material to d20, like in his LGJ articles, he passes for able, but when he's creating material whole cloth, like in Scarlet Brotherhood, it tends to be less than good.
As for Amaril, well, yeah, I called him a fanboy, and yeah, I meant it in a derogative fashion. That's what happens when you make unprompted and hypocritical attacks on fan work, which I've been a major part in creating. He enjoys CF enough to join over there, but decides to bash it as soon as one of his favorite authors is criticized. That's just how it works. If you don't like that, ignore me, I could really not care less.
As for Amaril, well, yeah, I called him a fanboy, and yeah, I meant it in a derogative fashion. That's what happens when you make unprompted and hypocritical attacks on fan work, which I've been a major part in creating. He enjoys CF enough to join over there, but decides to bash it as soon as one of his favorite authors is criticized. That's just how it works. If you don't like that, ignore me, I could really not care less.
Just to clarify, creating an account to post a handful of messages in the forums does not mean I am "enjoying" content and being a hypocrite. I literally have a postcount of 10 posts since I created my account more than two years ago. In fact, most of my posts, if not all, were references to official content.
Now I've left this argument for a number of days, so I'd appreciate it if everyone conversely left me out of the argument.
Additionally, I've already stated that I have no favorite authors. I have no loyalty to Sean K. Reynolds. I merely appreciate any official content from any author because I know how to take what I like or leave what I dislike. Please do not confuse my appreciation for the upcoming "Classics" article for any sort of devotion to its author. Your opinion of Sean K. Reynolds is not of my concern. Insulting my personal appreciation of the content itself is.
Why not write up Ivid himself for d20?
No one ever updated me and noone ever wil. ...But if you have to do, please give me 8 ranks on perform(spatula).
*Ay momma, why did I just have to write this...*
Wow. This is all really fascinating. Glad to see that we took a simple announcement about "hey, look, there's gonna be greyhawk in Dragon!" and turned into a flame war... Good going...
Don't despair. Arguing endlessly is what GH fans do best. I should know, I am one! :P
Seriously, nastiness aside, I think the endless debate about "canon" proves just how much we love the setting. That has got to be the one thing we can all agree about ;)
Just to clarify, creating an account to post a handful of messages in the forums does not mean I am "enjoying" content and being a hypocrite.
Oh, but it does, see? You offered the standard for that.
Your advocacy is implied by your participation on the web site.
You participate on that website, which makes you an advocate, yet you felt the need to attack the site because big mean chatdemon said something less than glowing about Sean's work. That, in any rational and logical situation, makes you a hypocrite, sir.
I literally have a postcount of 10 posts since I created my account more than two years ago. In fact, most of my posts, if not all, were references to official content.
So not only is your attack on the material hypocritical, you now admit to being one of the many whiners who complain about things in the community but do nothing to better them. Thanks, where oh where would we be without guys like you?
Now I've left this argument for a number of days, so I'd appreciate it if everyone conversely left me out of the argument.
But see, chum, it doesn't work that way. You created the argument. You turned my criticism of published material into an argument. You can't think you can simply walk away now, can you?
You can't think you can simply walk away now, can you?
Watch me...
Life's too short, move on everyone ;)
PS. Thank-you Amaril for walking away
Getting back on topic sort of, I haven't seen 339 yet but to those of us who have the LGJ already, xvarts and animuses 3.5 conversion or not, should feel this is a retread of SKR's stuff and not something to be impressed by.
Here are a few points from the editor of both the LGJ and the Dragon in question. Yes, some of the monsters in the new article originally appeared in the LGJ, but they are all high-profile monsters (greyhawk dragon, animus, and xvarts) that in my opinion are very close to necessary in order to run a "complete" Greyhawk campaign. While the LGJ was a useful means of getting new official material out to the Greyhawk faithful, we printed something like 8000 copies of each issue. Dragon sells in the tens of thousands (the five or six tens of thousands, in fact), so a LOT of people who never got those RPGA magazines will be getting their first exposure to these creatures next month. Also, while the differences are not staggering, there are some changes from 3.0 to 3.5 that make having the new write-ups useful.
That said, there are a whole ton of additional monsters in this article that have never been updated to 3.0 or 3.5, including two from the World of Greyhawk. I wanted to get the animus, xvart, and greyhawk dragon in wide distribution while it was still an option to do so.
That done, perhaps next year we'll have room for the camprat and crystalmists.
--Erik
That done, perhaps next year we'll have room for the camprat and crystalmists.
--Erik
.. and the Mist Wolves?
I want Bullywug Savants!
Plus Grung and Grippli.
(How else are we going to fight the Age of Flies that follows the Age of Worms except with an Age of Amphibians?)
Why not write up Ivid himself for d20?
I thought he was dead.
What happened (happening) within Rauxes is a magical mystery at this point.
Has anyone speculated on what's happening or happened to Rauxes?
Has anyone speculated on what's happening or happened to Rauxes?
Yep!
:D
P.
I thought he was dead.
PLEASE!?
;) He now has his little funny cabin over in the demiplane of the dread! Actually, the domain of *Rauxes* is a pretty cool place... (IMC...)
To detail this a bit more: I transported the Aerdy mainland to the mists, Xavener being the ruler of the city of Rauxes, and Ivid, reborn in two different bodies, lead a rebellion...
I like the concept, and once I am doing with my current stuff, I want to do another game there...
Don't despair. Arguing endlessly is what GH fans do best. I should know, I am one! :P
Seriously, nastiness aside, I think the endless debate about "canon" proves just how much we love the setting. That has got to be the one thing we can all agree about ;)
Well said. :fight!:
PLEASE!?
;) He now has his little funny cabin over in the demiplane of the dread! Actually, the domain of *Rauxes* is a pretty cool place... (IMC...)
Eh, Raf you need to play the "All Roads Lead to Rauxes [COR5-14]" LG adventure ;)