However this almost doubles her level from her previous incarnation- from level 23 to 43. Another problem I believe is the nature of the 2nd ed Dragons from level 21-30. You could easily design a PrC that duplicated all of the 2nd ed abilities from Dragon Kings but once you update them to 3rd ed terms such a PrC needs to have over 10 levels.
1.Dual progression in both Psion/Wizard spellcasting
2. d12 Hit Dice as thats what Dragons get
3.+20 at least natural armor bonus
4. a 24d12 breath weapon
5. Spell resistence- probaly 12+level for it to be worth while
6. Natural attacks
7. Size increase through to gargantuan or collossal
Assuming one done this and even restricted it to NPCs its still a crap way doing things as it is broken as heck and you still don't have the abilities a Dragon in 2nd ed had (monster thaco/BAB, 80% MR etc). 2nd ed sort of balanced them by giving them a truely awful xp table. While 3.0/3.5 simplified the xp table there was a reason Druids and Wizards in 2nd ed went up slower than any other class at high levels. That was game balence as virtually every class from 2nd ed got nerfed except for primary spellcasters and maybe the rogue/thief.I've seen more than a few DMs not allow vorpal weapons but have no problem with finger of death spells. The changes from 2nd ed saves, thaco, and the full attack action hurt non spellcasters alot. I suspect there may be no way to balence epic spellcasters in 3.5 compared to the non spellcasters. Trying to create epic dragons as PCs may be an exercise in futility as they will be either to broken or to weak.
Paizos suggestion if you needed to stat out a Dragon King was top take a great wurm dragon(didn't specify what one though) and give it spells as a 22 level wizard/sorceror and 22 level Psion. Such a critter would probably have a CR of around 25-28 depending on what great wurm dragon was used. While not a perfect conversion its quick, elegant and should terrify any player even contemplating messing with a Sorceror King. For the time being it may have to do but I would modify the wizard/psion levels depending on what King/Queen it was supposed to represent. This approach is also more on par with Borys as a fully transformed Dragon than the other SKs who were generally level 21-24 Dragons in 2nd ed.
Now here comes one of my main arguements against the Dragon PrC from Athas.org. I believe that it should have dual progression in both Psion/Wizard. This idea has been promptly shot down by several posters as being to unbalanced. My counter arguement is that it is needed just so any dual class type character can actually keep up. The Mystic Theurge has been cited as an example of a dual progression PrC as it doesn't get dual progression in the epic levels.
To be blunt that sucks. Even before the epic levels we have found the MT is actually very weak as numerous lower level spells from both spell lists and the worst abilities from both cleric and wizard (hit dice, BAB, saves) generally aern't worth the higher level slots and class abilities of a single classed Cleric, Wizard, Sorceror, or Druid. Perhaps the best (broken) Mystic Theurge builds involve other PrCs combinations like Ur Priest. One interesting build involves the Arcane Heirophant from Races of the Wild. Basically you can be a Druid3/Wiz3/Arcane Heirophant10/Mystic Theurge4 and cast spells at lvl 20 as a 17/17 Druid/Wizard. Anyone here have any problem with a character like that?
The Epic Mystic Theurge is just complete rubbish and more or less mechanically unplayable. I'm sure someone could have fun playing it and you would be able help your party in some ways but you would be all round useless. The reason is the way spell resistence works in D&D. A critters SR is generally around 12+challenge rating. A level 5 Cleric/5 Wizard/20 Mystic Theurge casts spells at level 20/20. A CR30 critter will have SR around 42- an Atropal from page 159 of the Epic Level Handbook is an example. This means that the above Mystic Theurge cannot penetrate the SR of any creature with a CR equal to his level It only gets worse as they level up. By level 40 the Theurge is casting at level 25/25 while a CR 40 creatures SR will be 52 (usually). Even with epic spell penetration the highest the character can roll is a 51. Uneven progression in wiz/clr ie 29/21 and epic spell penetration means the character can beat the SR 20% of the time with a 17 or better roll on a d20. Yippee
My point with the 2 paragraph rant about the MT is any Dragon PrC that doesn't have dual progression in Psion/Wizard is going to suck. Its not even a powergame issue. I don't expect to have an uber powerful character just one that can actually do something. Mechanically the Dragon PrC is on the weak side. Its better than most epic dual caster PrCs due to the d12HD and class abilities but over 10 levels compared to a single classed character loses 3 epic feats and 5 spellcaster level. That will likely prove to be fatal vs most epic creatures in the Epic Level handbook.
I also strongly advise changing/upgrading the spellcasting and psionic progression of the Dragon Prestige Class. The Challenge Rating of a Dragon should be taken in consideration. A Dragon is not supposed to be a suitable challenge for a group of 20th level characters, it is supposed to be far more powerful. And if one imagines a Dragon having to challenge 25th- to 30th-level groups (which, being smart, will in most cases not include characters which splitted their levels between two spellcasting classes) it should become apparent that a better spellcaster/psionic progression would not only not overpower the Dragon Prestige Class, but is necessary instead.
The above statement is my personal opinion, not my opinion as a member of the Epic Bureau.
So a Defiler 5/Psion 5/Cerebramancer 12/Dragon 10 would have an effective manifester/caster level of 27 at character level 32. If they took the feat practiced caster (and if a similar feat for manifesters was allowed) than they could get those up to 31 each, only one less than a single classed caster, while not being overpowered through have far more variety and number of spells and powers than said single classed caster.
Another point about Dragons: being at the top of the food chain so to speak dragons are unlikely to have to contend with creatures of higher level than themselves. In fact in this world their only likely enemies of equal power are advanced beings like themselves. If all advanced beings work the same way (with split caster/manifester levels) then, these balance issues basically become moot.
Despite the fact the Athas.org is forced to allow for a number of things that are considered cannon for 3.5 D&D, you as DMs do not. You could easily say that it impossible to advance beyond 20th level as a wizard, cleric, or druid without becoming an advanced being. Psions are a different matter, but forcing upon any single classed psion over 20th level either membership in the order or death helps to balance things there.
Psions are a different matter, but forcing upon any single classed psion over 20th level either membership in the order or death helps to balance things there.
Could someone be as kind as to tell me where information on the Order might be found? Is there any place besides the Dragon's Crown module?
Could someone be as kind as to tell me where information on the Order might be found? Is there any place besides the Dragon's Crown module?
There is also information on the Order in Dragon Kings and The Will and the Way. The Paizo Dark Sun conversion also had an interesting spin for the Order, in that it had them creating the Elan race to act as their agents in the Tablelands.
Well, patience, because the Dragon PrC is getting a few tweaks. I've mentioned them in other threads.
And those'll be up tonight. Just had to clean up document layout and such
And those'll be up tonight. Just had to clean up document layout and such
Along with the Champion Template?
There is also information on the Order in Dragon Kings and The Will and the Way. The Paizo Dark Sun conversion also had an interesting spin for the Order, in that it had them creating the Elan race to act as their agents in the Tablelands.
I liked quite a few of Paizos ideas about Darksun. The idea that kid in Draj becoming a full fledged Sorceror King got me thinking about my own campaign. My theory is that a Dragon could cast an epic spell and "steal" an elemental vortice off a dead Sorceror King so they could use it to empower their own Templars.