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castle greyhawk

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Nov 26, 2005 14:22:42 Ive been hearing references about a castle greyhawk in the lgg saying a little about it here and thier. My current game is in cy591 midwinter the next day after needfest. Is castle greyhawk in the city of greyhawk its self? Can someone give me a run down of the history of it? Im writing a dungeon crawl in it.
#2
Mortepierre
Nov 26, 2005 17:09:48 Castle Greyhawk is, in truth, the one-time home of Zagyg - ex-lord of Greyhawk City and now demi-god servant of Boccob. And, no, it's not in the city itself but some distance out of it (Zagyg liked his privacy).

It has had two incarnations in GH history.

One that was just a big joke..

http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/gh/gh-wg7.htm

.. and the real deal

http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/gh/gh-wgr1.htm

It is at the center of a new series of C&C accessories by none other than EGG himself.

http://www.trolllord.com/cz1.htm

(just change a few names and you'll be as good as in GH)
#3
Elendur
Nov 27, 2005 0:42:16 Castle Greyhawk is, at it's essence, just "the dungeon" outside of "the town", so you should feel free to make it whatever you want.
#4
zombiegleemax
Nov 27, 2005 3:20:41
Castle Greyhawk is, at it's essence, just "the dungeon" outside of "the town", so you should feel free to make it whatever you want.

Good answer.
#5
grodog
Nov 27, 2005 9:08:29 If you're interested in the original Gygax and Kuntz Greyhawk Castle, I've got a few resources on my web site that may help you with building your own version:

http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_castle.html is my main page where I collect research on the castle (I do need to reformat the page, it's mostly an outline of notes right now)
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_castle_sources.html is my research sources listing (though some sources appear on the previous page too)
In particular, you may find Gygax's "Up on a Soapbox" articles from Dragon helpful and/or inspiring: http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_castle_sources_soapbox.html is a listing and summary of their relevance to Greyhawk (and the castle in particular)
Lastly, I have a page dedicated to my own version of GH Castle, at http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_castle_grodog.html. I actually just uploaded two scans that show the elevations/cross-sections for my Castle Greyhawk dungeon levels, too.

You can make Castle Greyhawk anything you want it to be, so go for it :D IIRC, there were also several Living Greyhawk tourneys set in Castle Greyhawk from this summer convention season; I don't know much about these (yet ;) ).
#6
zombiegleemax
Nov 28, 2005 11:47:49 Thanks for the info and links(love them all) :D . Wow this is going to be a massive dungeon crawl. I will make my own homebrew version of it. Its going to be fun to take on. Its great-its right by greyhawk. Also I might steal the Yawining Portal from Waterdeep that has a well to a underground tunnel to the castle.
#7
chatdemon
Nov 29, 2005 10:47:00 There's no shame in ignoring the canon Castle, or even Kuntz/Gygax's new D20 version. Keep in mind that the original Castle dungeons were little more than randomly drawn maps on large sheets of paper that got randomly stocked, albeit with themes in some places, to challenge a large set of ongoing PCs. The idea that some painstakingly planned and executed dungeon rich in Greyhawk lore exists, or ever existed, is a fallacy.
#8
zombiegleemax
Nov 30, 2005 13:16:15
There's no shame in ignoring the canon Castle, or even Kuntz/Gygax's new D20 version...The idea that some painstakingly planned and executed dungeon rich in Greyhawk lore exists, or ever existed, is a fallacy.

Wouldn't Kuntz and Gygax's "new" version be just that considering their credentials and history with the setting? Not trying to start an argument CD, just asking.
#9
Yeoman
Dec 01, 2005 3:31:54 The game has come a long way in 35+ years. Most of the early published works were fairly random IMO, which fitted the style of play at that time. Generally I think its fair to say that players have increasingly demanded more from a setting, both in historic detail, cohesion and theme. It could be argued that this was in place by the early 80's, but that was several years after CG had started.

Whilst I have little doubt that the CZ print has a basis in CG in design themes, I would be very surprised if it hasn't been considerably overhauled, changed and updated to meet the demands of the current RPG audience. How much it relates to the original campaign, and indeed how much the original campaign relates to the current one is very debatable.
#10
grodog
Dec 01, 2005 10:01:54
There's no shame in ignoring the canon Castle, or even Kuntz/Gygax's new D20 version.

But of course, this is Greyhawk we're talking about :D

Keep in mind that the original Castle dungeons were little more than randomly drawn maps on large sheets of paper that got randomly stocked, albeit with themes in some places, to challenge a large set of ongoing PCs.

Based on my understanding of the Castle from discussions with Rob and Gary, as well as what's been written in general about the Castle, that's correct, especially for the first, original, Gygax-only, 10-12 levels version of Castle Greyhawk. However I think that after Gygax and Kuntz combined and reorganized Castle Greyhawk and El Raja Key into a single gigantic dungeon, that the levels becaome somewhat more themed in general. Places like the Bottle City, the proto Garden of the PlantMaster, the Machine Level, the Orc Level, the various demiplanes like Isle of the Ape/EX1-2/Mars, etc. began to appear a bit more regularly. Which is not to say that there weren't still lots of random elements present, but I think that as the design of the Castle grew and matured, so too did the method and presentation and nature of its challenges.

The idea that some painstakingly planned and executed dungeon rich in Greyhawk lore exists, or ever existed, is a fallacy.

Spot on: the Castle levels werent "neat." the way Rob has explained the relationships between the various levels to me is that the stairwells didn't necessarily align from level to level, for example. I think this is why there's so much talk in Gygax's "Up on a Soapbox" articles about long, winding, sloping passages, because those were a way to connect levels without players knowing that they were going to a new level, since stairs were more of a clue that you were in fact going up/down/etc. It sounds like many levels were connected through such long, off-shoot corrdiors and that many also weren't all stacked one atop the other, a la Greyhawk Ruins or my own version of the Castle.

The game has come a long way in 35+ years. Most of the early published works were fairly random IMO, which fitted the style of play at that time.

I'm disagree with that statement---many of the earliest adventures published were not overly-random. For example, G1 is a pretty tightly organized module (although parts of the dungeon level do seem random), and leads into a much larger plot; Dark Tower and the Caverns of Thracia are very well-themed adventures; however, many tournament adventures like the Lost Caverns of Tsojconth and Ghost Tower of Inverness had a lot of randomness to them. My point is that there were definitely "mature" adventures being offered from the beginning of adventure publishing.

Generally I think its fair to say that players have increasingly demanded more from a setting, both in historic detail, cohesion and theme. It could be argued that this was in place by the early 80's, but that was several years after CG had started.

True, and that level of interest had already arisen by the late '70s, too. The complaints about the lack of quality in the AD&D Open in 1979 directly lead to the creation of the A-series for the 1980 AD&D Open at GenCon, and like the GDQ modules, those adventures are more explicitly aligned into a single storyline.

Whilst I have little doubt that the CZ print has a basis in CG in design themes, I would be very surprised if it hasn't been considerably overhauled, changed and updated to meet the demands of the current RPG audience. How much it relates to the original campaign, and indeed how much the original campaign relates to the current one is very debatable.

It sounds like the version of Castle Zagyg being published now will be a "best of" the original dungeon levels, and that it will definitely not be an authentic recreation/reproduction of the original levels, which, as you and Rich have both pointed out, is probably for the best since the tastes of players have matured of the past 30 years. I still hope that the Castle will be big enough to get players seriously lost in it, at least :D :D
#11
Yeoman
Dec 01, 2005 16:12:43 I'm disagree with that statement---many of the earliest adventures published were not overly-random. For example, G1 is a pretty tightly organized module (although parts of the dungeon level do seem random), and leads into a much larger plot; Dark Tower and the Caverns of Thracia are very well-themed adventures; however, many tournament adventures like the Lost Caverns of Tsojconth and Ghost Tower of Inverness had a lot of randomness to them. My point is that there were definitely "mature" adventures being offered from the beginning of adventure publishing.

Yep. Actually my bad. I was specifically thinking of the GDQ series as being an example of the first move towards themed storyline adventures. As you pointed out this was in the 70's, and my timeline was somewhat geared to when I first played this in the early 80's......
The adventures I was referring to were more of the stand-alone tournament pedigree such as Ghost Tower et al.

Anyhow, I for one am looking forward to CZ. I suspect that much of the randomness will have been tidied up, and have been very happy with some of Gary Gygax's themed works - notably the Giants series, Temple of Elemental Evil and Necropolis. That said, I never warmed to EX1 or 2, and would be disappointed if CZ reflected that style. I also felt that the Rob Kuntz Zayene series and Maure Castle were well written, and such influence would be welcome in CZ.

Grodog, have you seen CZ yet? What of your opinion?
#12
gadodel
Dec 01, 2005 18:17:59
Castle Greyhawk is, at it's essence, just "the dungeon" outside of "the town", so you should feel free to make it whatever you want.

Good answer. :D
#13
grodog
Dec 04, 2005 21:56:19
Grodog, have you seen CZ yet? What of your opinion?

I've thumbed through it, but haven't picked it up since it's on my wish list, and my wife would maim me if I bought something on my wishlist prior to the holidays being over =)

I wasn't very impressed with the layout and editing of CZ, which is relatively par for the course for a Troll Lords product, but I'm hopeful that the material will more than make up for that.

Rob Kuntz's first module for CZ, Dark Chateau, should be available now as well. I'm even moreso looking forward to that, and to the next volumes in the CZ series, since the content in those books is more what I'm really looking for in the CZ series (i.e., the Castle) rather than a new mini-campaign setting.
#14
Yeoman
Dec 06, 2005 4:30:15 Grodog thanks for the reply. I confess I am unlikely to pick up Yggsburgh without first thumbing through it, and that material is not widely available for browsing in the UK. I am more inclined to go for the castle content if its well put together. I share your concerns with TLG editing though so we'll see.

I guess my main concern is whether the style of the castle proper reflects TOEE/GDQ or EX1/2. That will certainly be the main decider for me.
#15
ajs
Dec 09, 2005 9:05:50
It is at the center of a new series of C&C accessories by none other than EGG himself.

http://www.trolllord.com/cz1.htm

And note that it's for sale on Amazon. Here's a list someone maintains with all of the books involved:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/listmania/fullview/35H1EVS2HAAVR/002-6219796-2092067?%5Fencoding=UTF8
I'm thinking about buying all three, but I'd appreciate any more input from those who have seen it.

What can you say. Gygax doing CG (even if it's now CZ).... Hard to pass up.
#16
grodog
Dec 11, 2005 11:26:34
I guess my main concern is whether the style of the castle proper reflects TOEE/GDQ or EX1/2. That will certainly be the main decider for me.

Based on my conversations with Rob, the main focus of the Castle will be the "serious" dungeon levels, rather then the side-jaunts to sections like Wonderland.

In case anyone's curious, I also uploaded some improved dungeon levels elevations to my site (someone over on Dragonsfoot cleaned them up), as well as still-ugly scans of my version of the Castle Ruins level, my top two dungeon levels, the two sublevels to level 4, and level 17 (the bottom-most level in my version of Castle Greyhawk). Images linked in from the top of my page at http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_castle_grodog.html
#17
grodog
Dec 11, 2005 12:22:09 Also, for those of you looking for large dungeon levels, you could do worse than to check out the free samples at Mammoth Dungeons: http://www.mammothdungeons.com/freelevels.html

edited to fix(?) URL
#18
cwslyclgh
Dec 11, 2005 18:38:51 For some reason your link in the second post isn't working right Allan.

I realy like the maps you have put on your site.
#19
grodog
Dec 11, 2005 20:06:21 Thanks Wes :D They'll look better once I'm able to clean them up a bit, and perhaps recombine the levels so that they're all together again. Whenever that may be ;)

The Mammoth Dungeons link works now.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Nov 26, 2005 14:22:42	Ive been hearing references about a castle greyhawk in the lgg saying a little about it here and thier. My current game is in cy591 midwinter the next day after needfest. Is castle greyhawk in the city of greyhawk its self? Can someone give me a run down of the history of it? Im writing a dungeon crawl in it.
#2 Mortepierre Nov 26, 2005 17:09:48	Castle Greyhawk is, in truth, the one-time home of Zagyg - ex-lord of Greyhawk City and now demi-god servant of Boccob. And, no, it's not in the city itself but some distance out of it (Zagyg liked his privacy). It has had two incarnations in GH history. One that was just a big joke.. http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/gh/gh-wg7.htm .. and the real deal http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/gh/gh-wgr1.htm It is at the center of a new series of C&C accessories by none other than EGG himself. http://www.trolllord.com/cz1.htm (just change a few names and you'll be as good as in GH)
#3 Elendur Nov 27, 2005 0:42:16	Castle Greyhawk is, at it's essence, just "the dungeon" outside of "the town", so you should feel free to make it whatever you want.
#4 zombiegleemax Nov 27, 2005 3:20:41	Castle Greyhawk is, at it's essence, just "the dungeon" outside of "the town", so you should feel free to make it whatever you want. Good answer.
#5 grodog Nov 27, 2005 9:08:29	If you're interested in the original Gygax and Kuntz Greyhawk Castle, I've got a few resources on my web site that may help you with building your own version: http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_castle.html is my main page where I collect research on the castle (I do need to reformat the page, it's mostly an outline of notes right now) http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_castle_sources.html is my research sources listing (though some sources appear on the previous page too) In particular, you may find Gygax's "Up on a Soapbox" articles from Dragon helpful and/or inspiring: http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_castle_sources_soapbox.html is a listing and summary of their relevance to Greyhawk (and the castle in particular) Lastly, I have a page dedicated to my own version of GH Castle, at http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_castle_grodog.html. I actually just uploaded two scans that show the elevations/cross-sections for my Castle Greyhawk dungeon levels, too. You can make Castle Greyhawk anything you want it to be, so go for it :D IIRC, there were also several Living Greyhawk tourneys set in Castle Greyhawk from this summer convention season; I don't know much about these (yet ;) ).
#6 zombiegleemax Nov 28, 2005 11:47:49	Thanks for the info and links(love them all) :D . Wow this is going to be a massive dungeon crawl. I will make my own homebrew version of it. Its going to be fun to take on. Its great-its right by greyhawk. Also I might steal the Yawining Portal from Waterdeep that has a well to a underground tunnel to the castle.
#7 chatdemon Nov 29, 2005 10:47:00	There's no shame in ignoring the canon Castle, or even Kuntz/Gygax's new D20 version. Keep in mind that the original Castle dungeons were little more than randomly drawn maps on large sheets of paper that got randomly stocked, albeit with themes in some places, to challenge a large set of ongoing PCs. The idea that some painstakingly planned and executed dungeon rich in Greyhawk lore exists, or ever existed, is a fallacy.
#8 zombiegleemax Nov 30, 2005 13:16:15	There's no shame in ignoring the canon Castle, or even Kuntz/Gygax's new D20 version...The idea that some painstakingly planned and executed dungeon rich in Greyhawk lore exists, or ever existed, is a fallacy. Wouldn't Kuntz and Gygax's "new" version be just that considering their credentials and history with the setting? Not trying to start an argument CD, just asking.
#9 Yeoman Dec 01, 2005 3:31:54	The game has come a long way in 35+ years. Most of the early published works were fairly random IMO, which fitted the style of play at that time. Generally I think its fair to say that players have increasingly demanded more from a setting, both in historic detail, cohesion and theme. It could be argued that this was in place by the early 80's, but that was several years after CG had started. Whilst I have little doubt that the CZ print has a basis in CG in design themes, I would be very surprised if it hasn't been considerably overhauled, changed and updated to meet the demands of the current RPG audience. How much it relates to the original campaign, and indeed how much the original campaign relates to the current one is very debatable.
#10 grodog Dec 01, 2005 10:01:54	There's no shame in ignoring the canon Castle, or even Kuntz/Gygax's new D20 version. But of course, this is Greyhawk we're talking about :D Keep in mind that the original Castle dungeons were little more than randomly drawn maps on large sheets of paper that got randomly stocked, albeit with themes in some places, to challenge a large set of ongoing PCs. Based on my understanding of the Castle from discussions with Rob and Gary, as well as what's been written in general about the Castle, that's correct, especially for the first, original, Gygax-only, 10-12 levels version of Castle Greyhawk. However I think that after Gygax and Kuntz combined and reorganized Castle Greyhawk and El Raja Key into a single gigantic dungeon, that the levels becaome somewhat more themed in general. Places like the Bottle City, the proto Garden of the PlantMaster, the Machine Level, the Orc Level, the various demiplanes like Isle of the Ape/EX1-2/Mars, etc. began to appear a bit more regularly. Which is not to say that there weren't still lots of random elements present, but I think that as the design of the Castle grew and matured, so too did the method and presentation and nature of its challenges. The idea that some painstakingly planned and executed dungeon rich in Greyhawk lore exists, or ever existed, is a fallacy. Spot on: the Castle levels werent "neat." the way Rob has explained the relationships between the various levels to me is that the stairwells didn't necessarily align from level to level, for example. I think this is why there's so much talk in Gygax's "Up on a Soapbox" articles about long, winding, sloping passages, because those were a way to connect levels without players knowing that they were going to a new level, since stairs were more of a clue that you were in fact going up/down/etc. It sounds like many levels were connected through such long, off-shoot corrdiors and that many also weren't all stacked one atop the other, a la Greyhawk Ruins or my own version of the Castle. The game has come a long way in 35+ years. Most of the early published works were fairly random IMO, which fitted the style of play at that time. I'm disagree with that statement---many of the earliest adventures published were not overly-random. For example, G1 is a pretty tightly organized module (although parts of the dungeon level do seem random), and leads into a much larger plot; Dark Tower and the Caverns of Thracia are very well-themed adventures; however, many tournament adventures like the Lost Caverns of Tsojconth and Ghost Tower of Inverness had a lot of randomness to them. My point is that there were definitely "mature" adventures being offered from the beginning of adventure publishing. Generally I think its fair to say that players have increasingly demanded more from a setting, both in historic detail, cohesion and theme. It could be argued that this was in place by the early 80's, but that was several years after CG had started. True, and that level of interest had already arisen by the late '70s, too. The complaints about the lack of quality in the AD&D Open in 1979 directly lead to the creation of the A-series for the 1980 AD&D Open at GenCon, and like the GDQ modules, those adventures are more explicitly aligned into a single storyline. Whilst I have little doubt that the CZ print has a basis in CG in design themes, I would be very surprised if it hasn't been considerably overhauled, changed and updated to meet the demands of the current RPG audience. How much it relates to the original campaign, and indeed how much the original campaign relates to the current one is very debatable. It sounds like the version of Castle Zagyg being published now will be a "best of" the original dungeon levels, and that it will definitely not be an authentic recreation/reproduction of the original levels, which, as you and Rich have both pointed out, is probably for the best since the tastes of players have matured of the past 30 years. I still hope that the Castle will be big enough to get players seriously lost in it, at least :D :D
#11 Yeoman Dec 01, 2005 16:12:43	I'm disagree with that statement---many of the earliest adventures published were not overly-random. For example, G1 is a pretty tightly organized module (although parts of the dungeon level do seem random), and leads into a much larger plot; Dark Tower and the Caverns of Thracia are very well-themed adventures; however, many tournament adventures like the Lost Caverns of Tsojconth and Ghost Tower of Inverness had a lot of randomness to them. My point is that there were definitely "mature" adventures being offered from the beginning of adventure publishing. Yep. Actually my bad. I was specifically thinking of the GDQ series as being an example of the first move towards themed storyline adventures. As you pointed out this was in the 70's, and my timeline was somewhat geared to when I first played this in the early 80's...... The adventures I was referring to were more of the stand-alone tournament pedigree such as Ghost Tower et al. Anyhow, I for one am looking forward to CZ. I suspect that much of the randomness will have been tidied up, and have been very happy with some of Gary Gygax's themed works - notably the Giants series, Temple of Elemental Evil and Necropolis. That said, I never warmed to EX1 or 2, and would be disappointed if CZ reflected that style. I also felt that the Rob Kuntz Zayene series and Maure Castle were well written, and such influence would be welcome in CZ. Grodog, have you seen CZ yet? What of your opinion?
#12 gadodel Dec 01, 2005 18:17:59	Castle Greyhawk is, at it's essence, just "the dungeon" outside of "the town", so you should feel free to make it whatever you want. Good answer. :D
#13 grodog Dec 04, 2005 21:56:19	Grodog, have you seen CZ yet? What of your opinion? I've thumbed through it, but haven't picked it up since it's on my wish list, and my wife would maim me if I bought something on my wishlist prior to the holidays being over =) I wasn't very impressed with the layout and editing of CZ, which is relatively par for the course for a Troll Lords product, but I'm hopeful that the material will more than make up for that. Rob Kuntz's first module for CZ, Dark Chateau, should be available now as well. I'm even moreso looking forward to that, and to the next volumes in the CZ series, since the content in those books is more what I'm really looking for in the CZ series (i.e., the Castle) rather than a new mini-campaign setting.
#14 Yeoman Dec 06, 2005 4:30:15	Grodog thanks for the reply. I confess I am unlikely to pick up Yggsburgh without first thumbing through it, and that material is not widely available for browsing in the UK. I am more inclined to go for the castle content if its well put together. I share your concerns with TLG editing though so we'll see. I guess my main concern is whether the style of the castle proper reflects TOEE/GDQ or EX1/2. That will certainly be the main decider for me.
#15 ajs Dec 09, 2005 9:05:50	It is at the center of a new series of C&C accessories by none other than EGG himself. http://www.trolllord.com/cz1.htm And note that it's for sale on Amazon. Here's a list someone maintains with all of the books involved: http://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/listmania/fullview/35H1EVS2HAAVR/002-6219796-2092067?%5Fencoding=UTF8 I'm thinking about buying all three, but I'd appreciate any more input from those who have seen it. What can you say. Gygax doing CG (even if it's now CZ).... Hard to pass up.
#16 grodog Dec 11, 2005 11:26:34	I guess my main concern is whether the style of the castle proper reflects TOEE/GDQ or EX1/2. That will certainly be the main decider for me. Based on my conversations with Rob, the main focus of the Castle will be the "serious" dungeon levels, rather then the side-jaunts to sections like Wonderland. In case anyone's curious, I also uploaded some improved dungeon levels elevations to my site (someone over on Dragonsfoot cleaned them up), as well as still-ugly scans of my version of the Castle Ruins level, my top two dungeon levels, the two sublevels to level 4, and level 17 (the bottom-most level in my version of Castle Greyhawk). Images linked in from the top of my page at http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_castle_grodog.html
#17 grodog Dec 11, 2005 12:22:09	Also, for those of you looking for large dungeon levels, you could do worse than to check out the free samples at Mammoth Dungeons: http://www.mammothdungeons.com/freelevels.html edited to fix(?) URL
#18 cwslyclgh Dec 11, 2005 18:38:51	For some reason your link in the second post isn't working right Allan. I realy like the maps you have put on your site.
#19 grodog Dec 11, 2005 20:06:21	Thanks Wes :D They'll look better once I'm able to clean them up a bit, and perhaps recombine the levels so that they're all together again. Whenever that may be ;) The Mammoth Dungeons link works now.