), I was overjoyed to discover that the AoW inside finally revealed the "true" story of Kyuss.That is, I was overjoyed until I started to think about it from a "canon" point of view (I know, Erik, it always comes to that, eh? ;) ).
We already know that the Amedio has gone through several "ages".
- the Age of Monsters (demon-worshipping reptiles)
- the Age of Apes (the Dakon kingdoms)
- the Age of Men (the coming of the Olman)
The Olman came to the Amedio roughly 1600 years ago, and their civilization went down the drain at about the same time the Suel Empire went up in flames.
According to Dungeon, Kyuss founded his city in the Amedio about 2000 years ago. So, that would put it in-between the disappearance of the Dakon and the arrival of the Olman. So far, so good.
Next, we learn that a "powerful tribe of wild elves" allied itself with a "host of ghaele eladrins" to lock inside the ruins of the city the many undead minions of Kyuss.
First problem. Unless I missed it, I never read anything about elves living in the Amedio, even back then. But, ok, I can accept that.
Second problem: the "host of ghaele eladrins". In pure GH tradition, that's a bit heavy-handed. Granted, the undeads were fast becoming a major (local) problem but for the "powers of Good" to intervene on that level, the situation had to be dire indeed! Then again, it may help explain why during the Greyhawk Wars no Good outsiders came to the rescue of human armies facing the demons of Iuz and/or the devils of the Great Kingdom. After all, we know that it's a kind of trade between major powers. "If I can act now, you'll be allowed to act at some point of the future". Could this be the explanation? Maybe...
The last problem IMHO is the fact that Kyuss has been trapped inside his monolith ever since he obtained godhood. If that's the case, then when did he have time to go "set up shop" in the depth of the Rift Canyon (Wormcrawl Fissure)? According to the adventure, he left Sulm with his followers and went directly to the Amedio to build his city-state there. And that's where he was introduced (through a third party) to the infamous "worm" that became his instrument of power. The article doesn't hint that he left the city for any length of time, especially to return so far north. So, I am left a bit puzzled
Given one of the future AoW adventure deals with the Wormcrawl Fissure, I am still hoping for an explanation.
So, what do you guys thought of it?
What would be more interesting to me is if some Suel Arcanomach's or whatever they are called got ****** at Kyuss and stuck him in the Obelisk. Sounds like something Tharizidun's worshippers might do as well. Greyhawk has always placed an emphasis on neutral vs. non-neutral, evil vs evil, chaos vs law, chaos vs chaos etc. Wild elves generally scream chaotic neutral to me anyway and I also find it strange they would sacrifice themselves...although it would go a long way to explaining why they aren't in the Amedio any longer.
The fact that they ignored the whole Kyuss globtrotting side of things isn't too much of a surprise but with Wormhall, the Fissure, and his supposed ties with other great necromancers of that era it would be nice to get some sort of Greyhawk conversion doc from Erik or something along those lines.
To quote:
Dragotha pried the basalt monolith from its moorings and carried it far to the north, to his lair in the Rift Canyon. Kyuss, trapped within some planar nether-realm connected to the monolith, whispered words of confidence to Dragotha. “Release me,” he claimed, “and you shall live forever.” Dragotha conquered the required rituals, and Kyuss returned to the world. Shortly thereafter, Tiamat caught up with Dragotha and murdered him for some half-remembered transgression. True to his word, Kyuss restored Dragotha to life as a powerful dracolich, fusing a part of his own essence into the bones of his rescuer. Kyuss had followed the letter of their agreement (if not the spirit), and the process virtually enslaved Dragotha to his will. The great undead dragon stood at the vanguard of an army of spawn of Kyuss, which savaged the native cliffdwelling folk of the Rift Canyon and began the first steps toward a new empire of evil.
Thus, Kyuss had indeed time to "set up shop" in the Wormcrawl Fissure.
On a side note, I love Nightdruid's suggestion that it should have been the Dakon instead of wild elves. T'would certainly explain why their own civilization was vanquished in the process.
There's no reason the dakon couldn't have allied themselves with eladrins, though. The eladrins probably even looked apelike from the dakon perspective - it's not like the elf/eladrin connection is based on anything but the most superficial of similarities (and, okay, the eladrins do share a home plane with the elven gods, and even occasionally visit the Seldarine's realm).
The only problem is that normally eladrins work in disguise, being pathologically averse to letting their influence be known to the point of banishing themselves from the Material Plane for 1001 years if they break character. There were almost certainly eladrins fighting Iuz's hordes, but they didn't allow anyone to know it. If they did aid the dakons, the dakons probably weren't aware of it; they may have thought of them only as another dakon tribe.
Now, fighting Kyuss may be a lot simpler than fighting demons, as demons have a lot of connections/rivalries with other demons and other sorts of fiends, and openly involving themselves in a major fiendish incursion is a good way to open a Pandora's box leading to Armageddon. Kyuss, on the other hand, was just one wizard.
Ackum Razor: Dakon sounds good to me...give them some due not every mage has to be foiled in a magical duel.
Give the Dakon there due.
If we use dakons instead of elves, though, the dakons might ally with archons, formians, or modrons instead, assuming they were summoned deliberately and didn't just show up in disguise.
If we do give dakons their due, note that their favored class is wizard and their ancestors specialized in illusions and abjurations. There could have well been a magical duel.
Hmmm, Dakon's favor illusions & protection magic? Well, by the old opposing schools, that diametrically opposed to necromancy, so further fuel for the war between apes & undead. Perhaps Kyuss arrived, thinking the jungles uninhabited, but as he worked, he discovered the Dakons, eventually leading to war when the apes got a bit upset when he captured a few (cities) and began experimenting on 'em...:D
Kyuss, on the other hand, was just one wizard.
Actually, according to Dungeon, he was a priest of Nerull hailing from Sulm...
The whole "secret Spellweaver" thing also looks odd to me. Had Kyuss awakened an ancient reptilian lich from the Age of Monsters, I would have had an easier time going with it. Then again, that too has been done and overdone in the FR, so..
I actually suggested that we change the wild elves to dakon, but our managing editor James Jacobs rightly said that they have not yet been updated to third edition, and there was no point in doing so for this one throw-away reference.
I'll be making them dakon in my own campaign, and there's still time to make the change in the hardcover (assuming we do one).
But I agree. Wild elves don't really fit in the Amedio.
--Erik
Hahahahahaha. Do I know my people, or do I know my people?
What the heck?? When did I become "your people"? ;) I thought I was just some nutjob! :D
I actually suggested that we change the wild elves to dakon, but our managing editor James Jacobs rightly said that they have not yet been updated to third edition, and there was no point in doing so for this one throw-away reference.
Not entirely unreasonable, but you could always have referred to them as "apes" or "native sentient apes" or somesuch deal. Or have one of the other neighbors or natives do the deed. Dakons, of course, could always lead to other new monsters, such as worm-infested undead apes, maybe undead dakons who retained their illusionist abilities and act as infultrators, silverback undead ape juggernauts, etc. All summoned via portals from underground vaults, and given the northernly climate, the apes would be a complete shock to the natives, almost demons (since the only apes they'd know are the demonic kind).
I'll be making them dakon in my own campaign, and there's still time to make the change in the hardcover (assuming we do one).
But I agree. Wild elves don't really fit in the Amedio.
--Erik
LOL...well, you got to go with what you got.
I actually suggested that we change the wild elves to dakon, but our managing editor James Jacobs rightly said that they have not yet been updated to third edition, and there was no point in doing so for this one throw-away reference.
Ahem, actually they have been Erik. Look at the LGJ issue#5...
Granted, it's the 3.0 version but the 3.5 should look almost exactly the same.
Still, good to know we may yet see a more GHish version of the AoW released
EDIT: come to think of it, the Dakon was updated to 3.5 in the Revised Tome of Horrors (from S&S) which is 100% OGL!
I am still having problems with the Spellweavers though. I haven't read the ecology in a recent Dragon yet, but considering their role in the SCAP as well it seems strange they are so prevelant in this region of Greyhawk...
I guess I will have to hunt down that issue and do some reconciliation.But I agree. Wild elves don't really fit in the Amedio.
--Erik
Why?
Kwint
The spellweavers are an ancient race that used to command a vast empire, so saying that they had their hand in a number of plots ~2,000 years ago isn't much of a stretch. I don't know if this disagrees with ancient canon from 1e days (I don't know of any references), but it seems quite reasonable to me. It could have been mind-flayers, which sounds far more FRish.
Well my own quible is that this is during the hey day of the Suel Imperium and basically in their backyard...unless my historical dates are off. I realize that spellweavers probably were slipped into the SCAP before it was completely Greyhawk so maybe thats why they are now in AoW.
After reading about them in the most recent issue of Dragon (Boccob was excellent as well!) I guess it would make sense for them to be drawn to such a powerful nation as that of the Suel and neighboring Baklunish. In fact it probably wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility that they were somehow apart of the Invoked Devastation given their write up intimating they prod other races to cataclysmic events.
I'll have to pull out the SCAP and relook at that part of the campaign.
Why?
Kwint
I think I can answer that one.
1) The Amedio is relatively far away from any "traditional" elven nation.
2) The races that prospered there in the past wouldn't have been "friendly" to elves (except maybe the Dakon.. who knows?), and neither would have been the local fauna (plenty of hungry reptiles)
3) It's a kind of South American jungle, not the typical playground of Wild Elves (or even Grugach)
That is not to say it couldn't happen. After all, Maztica (FR) has some long lost elven tribe but the background is very different.
And if you need another reason..
4) Enough with elves already! They are all over the place. I, for one, was very happy with the background provided for the Amedio that placed it firmly under the control of - first - reptilians and - then - Dakon. At long last, something different
...After reading about them [spellweavers] in the most recent issue of Dragon (Boccob was excellent as well!) I guess it would make sense for them to be drawn to such a powerful nation as that of the Suel and neighboring Baklunish. In fact it probably wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility that they were somehow apart of the Invoked Devastation given their write up intimating they prod other races to cataclysmic events...
Given the secretive and elusive nature of spell-weavers and their obsession with magic, I indeed think it quite possible that they would be drawn to the Suel; practically inevitable in fact. It doesn't surprise me that they could do it "in their backyard" without being detected or disturbed since they seem to excel at that.
The idea that they were involved in the Invoked Devastation proves interesting however. It would work very well with the information in the Ecology article which posits that spellweavers have in the past introduced magic items that cause those races that threaten them to destroy themselves. Perhaps it was this very magic that led the Suel and Baklunish to arms in the first place. Perhaps it was the actual SOURCE of the Twin Cataclysms. All good ideas to explore in a campaign.
In the general background, it says that Kyuss leds his followers south to a jungle continent acorss the sea (or words to that effect). Presumably, this is Kyuss leaving Sulm to go to Hepmonaland.
So where does the Amedio come into this?
Or does "across the seas" mean the Amedio.
Or did he hop from Hepmonaland to the Amedio?
The proximity of the Spire of Long Shadows to Cauldron seems to indicate it's in the Amedio...
So was the empire of the spell weavers in the Amedio, Hepmonaland or both?
Also - I assume that the fortress of the cliff dwellers in the Rift Canyon is Veralos - as featured in one of the LGJ Mysterious places issues?
P.
Denis, aka "Maldin"
===============================
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com/
Check out the ton of edition-independent material on my website,
including Kyuss, the City of Greyhawk, the Twin Cataclysms (ID/RoCF),
and lots more.
They actually mean the Amedio and that's where the spellweavers had their realm way back in the when.
Alles klar!.
P.
In the most recent Dungeon it is a single undead spellweaver that adventurers run into. One that is shown in a vision to have given Kyuss the primordial green worm. So once again we have a spellweaver being the instigator of events that could lead to the destruction of a large swathe of the Oerth.
In the SCAP, if I remember it correctly, there is a spellweaver edifice that contains a lot of spellweaver corpses. I think the background says the spellweavers caused some sort of portal through which hordes of demons came at some point in the past.
I think there is some disjoint between how they appear in the SCAP and the recent ecology article but it shouldn't be too difficult to reconcile. As far as Greyhawk goes it probably makes more sense to have the Suel be responsible for the planar gate due to the prodding of the spellweavers.
They actually mean the Amedio and that's where the spellweavers had their realm way back in the when.
Spellweavers never had a realm anywhere. They're planewalking nomads.
In another timeline, spellweavers once had a vast empire in a universe where all planes were one. This plane shattered into the multiverse we know today, retroactively from the beginning of time. In this history, spellweavers were always nomads, wandering the planes, trying to pick up the pieces.
They can as easily show up in the Amedio as anywhere else, just like any extraplanar creature.
P.
--Erik Mona
Spellweavers never had a realm anywhere. They're planewalking nomads.
In another timeline, spellweavers once had a vast empire in a universe where all planes were one. This plane shattered into the multiverse we know today, retroactively from the beginning of time. In this history, spellweavers were always nomads, wandering the planes, trying to pick up the pieces.
They can as easily show up in the Amedio as anywhere else, just like any extraplanar creature.
I got this a little messed up. According to the Dragon ecology, the 'weavers originally had an empire built out of independent allied communities on hundreds of different worlds and planes. They discovered (or perhaps merely theorized) that the planes were once a single unit before being pulled apart by the gods, and their attempt to put this right using the True Words destroyed their empire.
So they're not actually from this hypothetical monoverse. Where they're from is unknown - the 2nd edition materials on them said simply "an alternate material plane."
But anyway, it looks like their Amedio community was only a colony left in ruins after the empire's end (though many spellweavers either survived the destruction or returned to the general vicinity from other planes later on). The pyramid that Kyuss built his city around was likely also a spellweaver ruin.
It's possible that the destruction of the spellweaver empire actually transformed the Harbinger of Worms into a lich, but it seems more likely that it did that to itself later on in order to escape the final death that comes from the spellweavers' alien reproductive cycle. It doesn't seem to have been the only spellweaver in the area, though no others are specifically mentioned.
The Spire of Long Shadows is meant to be in the Amedio, near the "Cauldron" tag on the big Dungeon map. I guess technically Sulm and the Amedio are on the same continent, so chalk that one up to a poor choice of words on my part.
--Erik Mona
Don't worry about it Erik. Actually, it fits rather well a medieval setting like the Flanaess.
Folks, we have to remember that cartography (not to mention its big brother geography) is still in its infancy circa 590 CY. Just because we [the players] have ready access to highly detailed maps doesn't mean the natives do too. Even if they did, those would be full of mistakes and misconceptions.
Take a look at maps from the Middle-Age, or even more recent ones such as from the XVIth century. The continents have weird shapes compared to what we know and most of them are blank with the words "terra incognita" written all over the place.
So, given there is only a small (and very inhospitable) stretch of coastline bordering Jeklea Bay, it isn't so surprising to hear that - to natives - the Amedio is considered another continent altogether.
Makes perfect sense.