Uber vs Epic

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

zombiegleemax

Dec 04, 2005 3:26:26
This thread is an off-shoot of the Union vs Sigil thread (originally a thread concerning planar cities). I'm sorry I missed all the action. I got held up by some stupid 35+ level guard in some retarded demiplane city... what was that place called again??? I can't remember...

Anyway, after sorting through all the posts, which took most of two hours, a couple of things stuck in my head, got me thinking, and now I have to respond.

The comment was made that Sigil had nothing to offer epic level characters. As Sigil is my favorite rpg city ever designed, I disagree. However, I can see why someone would say it. I believe it comes from a disagreement over what exactly an epic level character is.

Officially, an epic level character is any character that is over 20 levels. However, I make a distintion between an epic character and an uber character.

An epic, in literature, is a long story featuring many locations, usually involving war, long journeys, gods, kings, artifacts etc, etc, that takes place over a long period of time... The Iliad, the Odessy, Lord of the Rings. These are epics. Epic characters go through these adventures and emerge greater and wiser than when they started. However, they do not nessesarily emerge with super awesome powers. Take Frodo, for example. He, is most definetly an epic character along with Sam. However, they didn't come home from Mordor as 20+ level characters. Epic characters close ties with the plot of the story is what makes them epic, not levels.

Vampire Hunter D, on the other hand, is a prime example of an Uber character. These guys show up, already endowed with god-like powers, kick butt, take names and puff: the adventures over.

Most people who play with epic characters are really playing with Uber characters. Personally, I am part of the old school that retires characters above 18th level, but even getting a character that high would take 10 plus years of gaming to do. However, I do have, what I consider, an epic character. He is (2nd ed) 12 mage / 13 thief. After five years of every weekend gaming, three modules (Modron March, Dead Gods, and the Faction War) he has finally earned himself the title of 'Blood' and currently sits as Regent (head administrator) of the newly opened Academy of Sigil which was formerly the Hall of Records which has been taken over by the Church of Thoth after the departure of the Fated (Bigby would be so proud). Now being the Regent of the Academy at the center of the Multiverse is epic stuff, even though my character is only mid-level.

Sigil makes a great setting for epic campaigns due to all the conflict, intrique and variety of the city. Though not all of the regular faces of Sigil are super strong, there power doesn't come from raw force (i.e. Shameska). Many of the Factols weren't but mid level. Erin, Factol of the Sensates, didn't bother to carry around much protection when walking the streets of Sigil. She didn't need to. It was her reputation and position that kept her safe... except from the lady. The great thing about the planescape setting is that even a zero level sage can have incredible political power and can present wonderful challenges for a group of PCs.

However, I can see how Sigil, and all of Planescape, would be undesirable for a bunch of Uber-characters. This is due to one of the basic rules of the planes: no matter how uber you are, there's a stronger blood just around the corner. If players with Uber characters come to Sigil thinking they are going to show the Lady a thing or two, then they're about to find themselves in the Dead-book... or worse (poor Rowan...). The Lady, more than anything is a symbol for the entire planescape campaign. In the DM guide to Sigil, it expressly says this. The Lady was never meant to be de-throned. She is the keystone for the whole campaign. If Uber characters think that following her one simple rule while in her city, is a burden to their development, then obviously super uber power is more important to them than plot.

Now, there is nothing wrong with playing uber characters. Some people like to game that way. In such a case, the poorly concieved Union City.. that's right! Now I remember what that city was called!... is more fitting (complete with epic level guards).
#2

zombiegleemax

Dec 06, 2005 6:06:04
I'd ban epic characters from sigil unless they have some special permit or something. They just might be too close to godhood to be allowed inside
#3

ripvanwormer

Dec 06, 2005 9:41:45
I think Sigil is as good a setting for "ubercharacters" as any other, long as they don't think they can take down la Dama del Dolor. Rowan Darkwood, Skall, Rhys, A'kin, Shemeska, the Nameless One, Lothar the Master of the Bones, and Zadara are all ubercharacters; I really think the city is big enough to handle them.
#4

NineInchNall

Dec 09, 2005 1:10:13
There's no city big enough to handle kobold wizards.
#5

ripvanwormer

Dec 09, 2005 1:31:52
There's no city big enough to handle kobold wizards.

Of course not; the very thought is self-evidently absurd.
#6

tebryn14

Dec 09, 2005 13:02:03
I think both Sigil and Union qualify as "epic" and "uber" as per your definition of those terms. They both have very high powered individual in terms of sheer force (Rowan), and could easily satisfy characters of nigh infinite levels. Union, however, is particularly geared towards this type of play (with that nifty Slaadi Wizard), and has an edge in accomodating such characters by my reckoning. Sigil has an edge in terms of interconnectivity and sheer depth and variety of possible encounters. Union also has this capacity, but wasn't designed with that in mind, so...
#7

Shemeska_the_Marauder

Dec 09, 2005 16:12:42
There's no city big enough to handle kobold wizards.

I gave A'kin a pair of kobold apprentices / shop assistants, both of them wizards, both of them the children of a PC. They sought him out rather than the other way around, but I liked them and kept them around as a little bit of flavor in my 2nd campaign.