My gaming group and just finished the Key of Destiny tonight. I'll reference JudgeIto who is a fellow party member and DevonLancer who is our DM (and also post on this forum). For my part, I'm playing the tank of the party, aka Knight of Solomnia. Thusfar I've gone the recommended 4 ranks of Cleric, 3 KoCrown and after tonight got my first KoSword rank. (And for those with any knowledge of our game, yes I'm the one who speaks in Old English during the game to the best of my ability, with the "thees", "thous" and "thys" and so forth.)
That's not what I'm writing about however, I just thought I'd let you know what my part in this was in case anyone was curious. Having completed the Key of Destiny book, I have a few observations/complaints that I thought I would share (vent?) with the community to see if my thoughts are completely off base or if others have come to the same conclusion.
As a warning to other readers, if you have not yet done the Key of Destiny campaign and are planning to at some point, please note that from here on out this post will contain SPOILERS as to certain events and encounters. That having been said...
Problem 1:
When a group of friends is considering running a Dragonlance campaign like the Key of Destiny, I would think that at least one, if not all members have some sort of passing knowledge of the books upon which the setting is based. It would logically follow that with this kind of basic Krynnic knowledge would come a knowledge of who and what the Knights of Solamnia are. Consequently, I would think it obvious that at least one member of the group would want to role-play a Solamnic Knight. At the very least, one has to admit there is a good possibility of a Solamnic Knight being in the party.
So here's the problem - Throughout almost all of the Key of Destiny we traveled through lands dominated by the Knights of Neraka, and the DM has hinted that the entire campaign is going to be like that. Now stereotypically, a true Solamnic Knight is going to be proud of his position, rank, and responsibility. But in order to avoid having the entire party arrested and publicly executed, it is imperitive for the Knight to conceal his idenity and origin from the Nerakan knights who occupy the towns (i.e Pashin, Port Balifor). So the knight is left with the choice of dishonorably hiding who he is or risking the lives of his friends. I can understand this kind of difficult position cropping up now and then, but this kind of dilemna becomes decidedly wearisome when it seems like every "rest" point (coming into town) becomes a potential threat for fear of arrest by the evil knights.
Problem 2:
After going through the ruined Kender homeland and on the way towards the plume to enter the volcanic tunnels, we were attacked by an adult red dragon in the open, unescapable mountainside, as dictacted by the KoD book (to my knowledge). This encounter in that context seems ridiculous. Although MY party lived through it, a normal party, in my opinion, should not, and I'll explain why. At the beginning of the campaign, our DM decided to give us each all an epic weapon that would level up with us. In my case, he gave me a shield that, given a high enough reflex save, can negate a dragon's breath attack (failure still results in half damage, it's like improved evasion vs. dragon's breath). So since we all failed our spot check (even our rogue and ranger who have 10+ ranks in it), the dragon got its surprise attack off by strafing the party with a stream of fire. I didn't even get a chance to try and block it since it came from behind. On its next pass, I was able to block the fire and save the party from more damage (since they were behind me and my shield). When the dragon realized I had a means of negating its breath attack, it then resorted to melee combat.
So here's the problem - Without this kind of artifact that can keep a dragon from breathing on the party over and over, what's to keep the dragon at this part from simply swooping by over and over and incinerating the party to death without ever landing? With a high AC due to previously prepared and cast spells and a natural spell resistance, even with a mage, trying to take down a dragon in flight is a formidble feat. And considering that the party that is, at best, level 7, this seems to be a ridiculously overpowered encounter. According to my DM, the book says the dragon will make two passes, then land. But why? If the dragon is winning from the air, the only logical reason it would land is if its air attack was ineffective (which it was in this case due to the shield). Why would it subject itself to danger by flying over twice then landing to do melee combat? It doesn't make sense. If it's going to wait for the party to be in the relatively helpless open area, it should logically exploit that disadvantage by never making itself accessible to more dangerous melee attacks.
Problem 3:
After the dragon encounter, the party encountered 3 "Magma Wights". Undead lava creature-blob things. Any weapon that tried to hit it was forced to make a damage save or be instantly destroyed by its lava-covered body (poor cleric lost her +2 quarterstaff).
So here's the problem - When the creatures first appear, there is absolutely NO way to know they're undead unless someone thinks to cast a detect undead or something, and normally no one would think to cast that upon looking at these creatures. In no way, shape, or form, did they resemble undead. So you're left to just fight them, and risk having your entire party disarmed of all weapons before you even get inside the volcano. Oh sure you could have your mage whip out a bunch of ice spells and the like to take them down... but what if the mage already used them all against the red dragon? what if your mage doesn't want to spend all his spells before you actually get INTO the dungeon volcano? what if you don't have a mage in your party? The only way we got passed them is that our ranger happened to have an ice weapon. Her epic weapon was an ice-blade that effectively does freezing burst type damage. So I kept playing the big target, waiting around and absorbing blows while she picked them off one by one (and losing my silver war hammer in the process). It seems as if this encounter is designed to, if not kill, impossibly cripple the party before they even get to the largest threat.
So these are my main concerns. I hope I didn't sound overly critical. I should clarify that my friends and I are enjoying the campaign immensely. I just wanted some feedback on these areas to hear of others experiences. Maybe I'm just viewing the whole thing too selfishly. But if you've made it this far in the reading, any feedback would be appreciated.
J
I'll miss you, +2 quarterstaff
Oh "Ogreslayer", I hardly knew ye!
Knights of Solamnia have largely gotten over the need to tell the whole world who they are, especially in lands occupied by the Dark Knights. They have clandestine knights, and while they often find it distasteful they recognize the necessity.
As for the other issues, I haven't read KoD as closely as I've read SoS, so I'll leave that to those who are more familiar.
Why would it subject itself to danger by flying over twice then landing to do melee combat? It doesn't make sense. If it's going to wait for the party to be in the relatively helpless open area, it should logically exploit that disadvantage by never making itself accessible to more dangerous melee attacks.
It's a red dragon. It's an overconfident, chaotic bully of a dragon, too. Red dragons love melee combat and have no problem engaging in it, thinking that they will typically win. If Soulburn found that he wasn't doing so well at the melee approach he'd back off, but come on - it's just a bunch of puny little mortals running about trying to avoid being toasted.
The encounter with Soulburn is tricky, but it's not outside of the party's ability to deal with it. Besides, if you're heading for a volcano and your party hasn't stocked up on things to deal with fire, like protection from energy spells and so forth, then there isn't much that you can do to help them out.
Cheers,
Cam
According to my DM, the book says the dragon will make two passes, then land. But why?
If you look up "hubris" in a dictionary by Astinus it has a picture of a red dragon in it. Dragonlance reds are the pinnacle of arrogance.
... but what if the mage already used them all against the red dragon? what if your mage doesn't want to spend all his spells before you actually get INTO the dungeon volcano? what if you don't have a mage in your party?
Retreat. Research. Rejuvenate. Re-arm. Return. Reak havoc.
this seems to be a ridiculously overpowered encounter.
The party I DM for had no problem with this encounter. Between the tank KoS and the WoHS they brought Souburn down in 3 rounds.
Retreat. Research. Rejuvenate. Re-arm. Return. Reak havoc.
LOL! I love it!
I think my group needs to make this our mantra...althoughwe would never use the term "Retreat." It is in fact a "tactical retrograde advance."
Besides, if you're heading for a volcano and your party hasn't stocked up on things to deal with fire, like protection from energy spells and so forth, then there isn't much that you can do to help them out.
We did have protection potions on and active at the time.
Would that have helped save our weapons from the magma wights?
Alternatively, could I have picked up the ashes of my staff and used the "Make Whole" or "repair" spells to fix it?
Just thought of that today, unfortunately. I wonder if we can make a trip back up the volcano to get some ashes without incurring the wrath of the dragonspawn?
Cheers,
Cam
For Clarkvalentine’s comment – thanks for the alternate perspective on the knights. That actually will help when it comes to what I ultimately decide to do with the Lance. Following the traditional values of the Solamnic Knights, I should be taking Huma’s lance straight back to Solanthas. On the other hand, the party has been chosen of the gods to be on the quest and that quest has led us here, so we were obviously meant to have the Lance. It comes down to a what’s “right” vs. what the rules are decision.
To the esteemed Mr. Banks – I hadn’t considered the personality of the dragon, but what you said makes sense. Soulburn’s arrogance might indeed lead it into making a mistake into misperceiving the adventures’ value. Thanks for the feedback.
For Jonesy – a cute alliteration indeed. However, the whole retreat and regroup strategy wouldn’t have worked that well. The way the module is written, it seems as if all of these encounters must happen one after the other. There simply isn’t time or opportunity to rest up again. I suppose we could have gone back down the mountain to the Kender’s home, but we only had so many resist energy potions and the last thing we needed to risk was running out in the middle of the volcano.
In regards to the magma wights/wraiths, is it a Fort save? Or charisma save? If it was a fort save, then sure I can see that as a good pre-dungeon counter. But if it’s a charisma save, then each party has at best, a 50% chance of losing the weapon (and that’s assuming the + value of a magic weapon adds to the save). For example, I’m wielding the “Kiss of the Desert Sun” (from the tower outside the temple) which is a +2 sword. With a 16 charisma, I add to that a +3 modifier. Added together that’s a +5. If the encounter is a DC 14 charisma save, that means I’d have to roll a 9 or higher on a d20. So I have a slightly better than 50% chance to save. At the time, I was the only one with a +2 weapon and, along with JudgeIto’s character, am tied for the highest charisma. So of all the party, my character and JudgeIto's character (who was also wielding a +2 quarterstaff) stood the best chance of making the save, and that still is about a 45% chance of failure (ergo, +2 quarterstaff is now ash, wooden weapon or not). This risk of losing the weapon is not one I’m willing to risk considering failure means completely disarming me for the rest of the dungeon. If it was a fort save, then the party is still subjected to the risk of losing a weapon without fearing a potential complete disarmament.
Again, thanks for the feedback which has helped me a lot with these problems I’ve had, and I apologize if I come across as a whiner, these are just some concerns and thoughts of mine.
J
In regards to the magma wights/wraiths, is it a Fort save? Or charisma save? If it was a fort save, then sure I can see that as a good pre-dungeon counter. But if it’s a charisma save, then each party has at best, a 50% chance of losing the weapon (and that’s assuming the + value of a magic weapon adds to the save).
It's a Fortitude save. You don't make Charisma saves, you make Charisma checks, and you wouldn't need to make a Charisma check in this case - it's the item trying not to melt.
Cheers,
Cam
It's a Fortitude save. You don't make Charisma saves, you make Charisma checks, and you wouldn't need to make a Charisma check in this case - it's the item trying not to melt.
Cheers,
Cam
Then, as I have previously stated, a fortitude saves makes perfect sense. Once again, thank you for the clarification. At this point, for the record I would like to state that our DM (who is a good friend of mine and is fully aware that I am writing this) is an idiot. Apparently he misread the text and make a charisma check instead of a fortitude save. Why? I dunno. He's an idiot. (I say this good-naturedly, not vindictively.) And apparently he won't retroactively give us our melted weapons back either (which I can understand, but still kinda sucks). Oh well. Such is (a make-believe) life.
Cheers,
Cam
Your DM isn't an idiot, he was probably just confused by some of the text for the Melt Weapons ability of the magma wraith. It calls for a Fortitude save, and notes that the save DC is Charisma-based. This means it's based on the magma wraith's Charisma (DC of 10 + 1/2 HD of the magma wraith + Cha modifier). It doesn't mean the saving throw itself is based on Charisma.
Cheers,
Cam
Wow. This seems to be a common mistake. One of my friends, who happens to be rather intelligent, was DMing his first 3.5 game after years of 2e and made the same kind of boneheaded goof. It took a few minutes for me to sort it all out. "It's a Fort save but you use your Charisma." "Riiiiight. Gimme that book for a second."
Greetings fellow Players and Masters alike,
My gaming group and just finished the Key of Destiny tonight. I'll reference JudgeIto who is a fellow party member and DevonLancer who is our DM (and also post on this forum). For my part, I'm playing the tank of the party, aka Knight of Solomnia. Thusfar I've gone the recommended 4 ranks of Cleric, 3 KoCrown and after tonight got my first KoSword rank. (And for those with any knowledge of our game, yes I'm the one who speaks in Old English during the game to the best of my ability, with the "thees", "thous" and "thys" and so forth.)
Hey, as I've just started running the campaign for a party that includes two Solamnic Knights to be, I'm curious how and when your DM got the party to Solamnia for their KotC oaths.
So, how about it?
Hey, as I've just started running the campaign for a party that includes two Solamnic Knights to be, I'm curious how and when your DM got the party to Solamnia for their KotC oaths.
So, how about it?
Ok, no in the literal meaning of it, my DM is not an idiot. He's a bit of a goofball, but hardly more than I am one myself. When I say he's an idiot, it's in that friendly, buddy-to-buddy, joking, ribbing kind of context. We all laugh at our friends. Even when they're idiots. ESPECIALLY when they're idiots. :P
Anyways... to answer Nine's question...
When our party got to Ah-Khurman, the mage (inevitably) took a trip up to the tower where that red-robed chick was. He then disappeared (come to find out later she spirited him to the Tower of Wayreth to take his test). The next day after his disappearance (we didn't know he was gone yet), I get a message saying we're to go to this one inn. It had the seal of Solamnia on it. My party and I went to go there and met up with a high ranking council member of the Knights who said we were to return immediately back to Solanthas to give our report.
I should note here that three of the party members were originally from Solanthas, myself and my in-game sister and a friend of ours. And my "sister" and I are the offspring of a Knight on the Council. Basically they had cleric's standing by to summon us back to Solanthas, from there we come to find out that the entire Knighthood is preparing for war to drive the Nerkans out of Palanthas and that my party is to be the vanguard and take over the High Clerist Tower. Though the Tower was not guarded by Nerkas, there were reports of some other "evil" there we were to clear out. Long story short (too late?) we were deposited by dragons, met up with our mage (who, coincidentally was sent to the Tower as part of his test.. convenient). We cleared the tower of many many draconians and, eventually a black dragon. Lit the light at the tower's top and had dragons pick us back up and bring us back to Solanthas. There I was knighted and after one knight we were sent back to Ah-Khurman via cleric.
If there's any other questions, just let me know. Or my DM. Careful though.. he's an idiot. ;)
J