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#1SysaneDec 05, 2005 15:10:08 | This is the PrC that stemmed from the New Race thread in which half-dragons were addressed and the posible inclusion of the dragon disciple PrC with some alteration. I'd like to thank Kal for his input on this. Thoughts and hate mail are welcome.
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#2PennarinDec 05, 2005 15:27:28 | [dramatic voice] And so a new cycle begins... [/dramatic voice] |
#3SysaneDec 05, 2005 15:29:20 | [dramatic voice] And so a new cycle begins... [/dramatic voice] Yeah I know. But that thread got the creative juices flowing. Sorry |
#4PennarinDec 05, 2005 15:49:07 | No need to apologize, I was being [dramatic], er...I meant [overly dramatic] Here is my initial review, also known as Mr. Quicky :D Aside from mirroring athasian dragons, I see no need to require magic and/or psionics as prerequisites. Who is even to say that the bloodline transfers any magic and/or psionics, i.e. giving a +1 manifesting or spellcasting level? The falvor of the class seems to indicate the change in the character is - failing for a better word - genetic, and that its stems from genes transfered from his dragon parent. Also, the dragon disciple PrC is one of those classes that sucks the most in the DMG, just read out the comments on the PrC boards. What people majorly hate about it is that its design dates from 3.0 and that it still keeps some artifact from that time, mainly the ridiculous spell progression it offers. 99% of all other spellcasting PrCs offer +1 to spellcasting level while the dragon disciple PrC offers a laughable progression. Mmm, the blindsense...is it an ability athasian dragons receive? Because its inclusion in the dragon disciple PrC is meant to mirror other world dragons... The feat, albeit a good idea, is worthless in its current guise. I've seen maybe a dozen such feats in WotC books, but right now I can't recall the location of any. If I do I'll tell you and you'll see what kind of feat you can expect to be able to craft. Mmm, maybe if you check in Complete Arcane you could find a PrC that has a Complete Arcane feat as prerequisite, one of those feats meant to unluck further abilities. In short I'm somewhat interested in the class, but certainly not in its current guise as a port of the DMG dragon disciple. |
#5xlorepdarkhelm_dupDec 05, 2005 16:12:36 | Interesting idea. Personally, I'm sticking to my thought to use Sorcerers as the possible offspring from SK's -- I'd rather there is no direct link to anything that would suggest that the SK's really are Dragons. People who know the Sorcerer information from the PHB might make that connection, but as far as their character knowledge goes, it should just be the powerful Sorcerer-Kings seem to be able to "gift" some of their offspring with the ability to innately use Arcane Magic (which otherwise is an unnatural abomination that nothing should be able to "naturally" be able to use in my view). |
#6SysaneDec 05, 2005 16:28:48 | No need to apologize, I was being [dramatic], er...I meant [overly dramatic] Yeah I know. I would just hate to see a dozen PrC threads start up again. Aside from mirroring athasian dragons, I see no need to require magic and/or psionics as prerequisites. My thought was that it took magic and psionics to start their parents tranformation into a full blown dragon so it stood to reason that it would take some (at a lesser extent) for their children to change as well. Yes its genetic, but it would take the use of magic and the way to jump start that transformation. Who is even to say that the bloodline transfers any magic and/or psionics, i.e. giving a +1 manifesting or spellcasting level? The flavor of the class seems to indicate the change in the character is - failing for a better word - genetic, and that its stems from genes transfered from his dragon parent Being creatures born of a magical/psionic being (like a Dragon in standard worlds) I would think that they would gain some advantages in those departments. I originally had it that the PrC made them naturally psionic at 1st which granted the bonus of 3 power points but wasn't to crazy about that. I was also tinkering with giving them their own spells per day/powers like an assassin or warmind. Also, the dragon disciple PrC is one of those classes that sucks the most in the DMG, just read out the comments on the PrC boards. What people majorly hate about it is that its design dates from 3.0 and that it still keeps some artifact from that time, mainly the ridiculous spell progression it offers. 99% of all other spellcasting PrCs offer +1 to spellcasting level while the dragon disciple PrC offers a laughable progression. I do agree that the disciple has a awful spell progression, but the major point of the PrC (and to a lesser extent, this one) is the physical changes brought on by the PrC due to having draconic parents not in developing their magical talents to greater levels. Mmm, the blindsense...is it an ability athasian dragons receive? Because its inclusion in the dragon disciple PrC is meant to mirror other world dragons... Yeah I thought about that and was on the fence about including it. I may replace it with an entirely different ability. The feat, albeit a good idea, is worthless in its current guise. I've seen maybe a dozen such feats in WotC books, but right now I can't recall the location of any. If I do I'll tell you and you'll see what kind of feat you can expect to be able to craft. Mmm, maybe if you check in Complete Arcane you could find a PrC that has a Complete Arcane feat as prerequisite, one of those feats meant to unluck further abilities. I was sort of basing the feat on some of the FR regional feats. Like Bloodline of Fire. It granted a +1 caster bonus to the character when using fire spells. Perhaps I could include that all chr based skills are treated as class skills rather than cross classed? In short I'm somewhat interested in the class, but certainly not in its current guise as a port of the DMG dragon disciple. I'll see what I can do in order to jazz it up some. |
#7kalthandrixDec 05, 2005 21:04:28 | I have been bouncing my comments off of Sysane so I believe that I have been heard- but I would like to say again that I kind of dislike the spell/psionic progression. Thats it for now- I just have to get this one out there on public record :D |
#8SysaneDec 06, 2005 8:06:40 | What do you think of this as a replacement for the blindsense ability:Defiler Spawn: Starting at 5th level, it becomes natural for the dragon brood to defile when spell casting. Anytime the brood would resort to defiling in order to cast a spell they receive an additional +1 bonus to caster level. |
#9SysaneDec 06, 2005 11:37:13 | Here's a revised version of the PrC. Comments welcome. DRAGON BROOD |
#10zombiegleemaxDec 06, 2005 13:58:35 | Interesting idea. Personally, I'm sticking to my thought to use Sorcerers as the possible offspring from SK's -- I'd rather there is no direct link to anything that would suggest that the SK's really are Dragons. People who know the Sorcerer information from the PHB might make that connection, but as far as their character knowledge goes, it should just be the powerful Sorcerer-Kings seem to be able to "gift" some of their offspring with the ability to innately use Arcane Magic (which otherwise is an unnatural abomination that nothing should be able to "naturally" be able to use in my view). I also perfer this idea. The "gifiting" of an innate ability to draw and shape plant life energy. It also might be interesting if they could draw on amnimal life but unlike the dragon not to a drgree that it would harm the subject. Kind of like a mini drain maybe they can only draw enough to power 3rd level spells or lower from animal life. just thinking.... |
#11SysaneDec 06, 2005 14:10:08 | I also perfer this idea. The "gifiting" of an innate ability to draw and shape plant life energy. Thats fine. Even with the inclusion of sorcerers they could further develop there dragon heritage with this PrC. :D |
#12SysaneDec 07, 2005 13:36:58 | No further comments? Well, looks as if I've pretty much nailed this PrC and call it done deal. :P |
#13xlorepdarkhelm_dupDec 07, 2005 22:05:40 | I also perfer this idea. The "gifiting" of an innate ability to draw and shape plant life energy. I don't like the idea of them being able to tap into animal life energy. The ability to use Animal life energy is tied not only into the Arcane, but also potentially Psionic, and definitely with an external focus -- Obsidian. That's not really something I can see Dragons being able to gift to their offspring. It's enough that the idea can help bring Sorcerers into the Dark Sun setting without horribly contradicting the setting itself (because otherwise, Arcane Magic is rather unnatural, and not something I can ever see being an innate thing for a person to know). |
#14PennarinDec 08, 2005 1:47:30 | I don't like the idea of them being able to tap into animal life energy. The ability to use Animal life energy is tied not only into the Arcane, but also potentially Psionic, and definitely with an external focus -- Obsidian. Plus, the Leech PrC does not even power its spells from animal life energy, it just damages animal life when its present within the normal defiling radius. That's an important benchmark since the Leech is, I think, meant as the closest to dragonhood a nondragon can get. |
#15flipDec 08, 2005 11:35:02 | It's enough that the idea can help bring Sorcerers into the Dark Sun setting without horribly contradicting the setting itself (because otherwise, Arcane Magic is rather unnatural, and not something I can ever see being an innate thing for a person to know). See, this is the thing that bugs me. There is NOTHING innate about the Sorcerer's use of arcane magic. Sure, the core settings flavor paints it that way, but it doesn't have to be. It's just a permanant way of preparing spells. The sorcerer learns a new spell, and burns it into his mind, while a wizard has to create temporary structures. There's no reason that it has to be innate to the sorcerer's being. And, of course, defiling and preserverving applies to Arcane magic, not just Wizards. Meaning that Sorcerers are faced with the same choices on that front. |
#16SysaneDec 08, 2005 11:51:50 | And not only that. How kick arse is that Dragon Brood PrC! You know....the actual subject and point of this thread? :P ;) |
#17xlorepdarkhelm_dupDec 08, 2005 13:26:33 | See, this is the thing that bugs me. You could go that way with it. Personally, I like the idea that the Sorcerers can manipulate magic innately/instinctively. And by making that be something which the SK's are inadvertantly "gifting" their offspring with, produces a certain twist to the Dark Sun setting, and I use as my way to explain Sorcerers. Individual, independant, they figure out magic on their own, and without the helping hand of a mentor, many quickly slip into the realm of Defilers -- there's nothing really guiding them to avoid Defiling. They are mainly distrusted by Wizards -- because they can use magic in a way the Wizards don't really understand (nor really do the Sorcerers). My wist/dynamic makes it so that most Preservers are Wizards, while most Sorcerers are Defilers (but I'm not saying that most Defilers are Sorcerers, nor am I saying that most Wizards are Preservers!) I still don't have a great number of Arcane spellcasters in my campaigns, and I don't force Sorcerers to be Defilers (or Wizards to be Preservers!), but it is something I use to color the setting more. And Sysane, yea.. I know I hijacked your thread. It wasn't my original plan, but it happened. I'll try to not hijack it too much any more. I've had threads about Sorcerers before, and they never really gained that much interest. Apparently your Dragon Brood PrC has more interest in my Sorcerers than my Sorcerer threads did :P For the record, I don't thinkt he Dragon Brood PrC will end up in my campaigns. I think it provides too much information to people, suggests that the SK's are Dragons when I would rather that be a surprised I spring on my players at my own leasure, and borders on making Half-Dragon-like characters which I'm not comfortable with, as it would tend to imply that the Dragons are somehow a natural creature (able to breed true), while the setting itself tends to imply that the SK's produce human offspring (ie: don't "breed true" to the species they are becoming). |
#18SysaneDec 08, 2005 13:30:15 | And Sysane, yea.. I know I hijacked your thread. It wasn't my original plan, but it happened. I'll try to not hijack it too much any more. I've had threads about Sorcerers before, and they never really gained that much interest. Apparently your Dragon Brood PrC has more interest in my Sorcerers than my Sorcerer threads did :P No biggie. It happens. I guess they are related in a way. |
#19master_ivanDec 09, 2005 3:43:07 | I was thinking... What if the dragon brood draws it's spell energy from the same source as the templars of it's dragon parent? Instead of being able to draw energy from animals...if the dragon brood is a defiler. Which brings me the idea that a dragon brood should not be allowed to be a preserver, because of it's parents "nature" of pure evil. And be the DS edition of a Sorcerer? |
#20SysaneDec 09, 2005 8:23:40 | I was thinking... I was theorizing something similar to this on my drive home from work a couple of nights ago. Not so much for this PrC, but something entirely different. I was thinking about the connection of the living vortices to the female Sorcerer Monarchs their pregnancy. For nine months the mother and child are essential bonded and what effects one would effect the other. What if in rare instances when a Sorcerer Queen gives birth their child somehow retains that link to the vortice that it sharing with its mother? Instead of being able to draw energy from animals...if the dragon brood is a defiler. Which brings me the idea that a dragon brood should not be allowed to be a preserver, because of it's parents "nature" of pure evil. And be the DS edition of a Sorcerer? My though with this PrC was that the brood would be more adept at defiling due to being born of a creature who was created to be the ultimate defiler which I tried to capture with the defiler spawn ability. However, I don't necessarily feel that they have to be defilers by default. Half-fiends don't have to always follow the path of evil correct?. Its all about choice. |
#21master_ivanDec 09, 2005 11:20:22 | I was theorizing something similar to this on my drive home from work a couple of nights ago. Not so much for this PrC, but something entirely different. I was thinking about the connection of the living vortices to the female Sorcerer Monarchs their pregnancy. Yeah, that makes more sense than with the Sorcerer King, unless they have a different idea of childbirth. My though with this PrC was that the brood would be more adept at defiling due to being born of a creature who was created to be the ultimate defiler which I tried to capture with the defiler spawn ability. However, I don't necessarily feel that they have to be defilers by default. Half-fiends don't have to always follow the path of evil correct?. Its all about choice. Like serious drug adicts/alcoholics can sway from the path of self-centeredness/selfishness/corruption. Of course everyone has a choice, you're right. But they could become more powerful defilers than preservers, right? |
#22SysaneDec 09, 2005 11:34:43 | Yeah, that makes more sense than with the Sorcerer King, unless they have a different idea of childbirth. It could be that the child of a Sorcerer Queen who retains the bond with the vortices (like 1 out of a 100 children) could tap that energy themselves (unlike their mother). I'm thinking something along the lines of a Favored Soul or the Sha'ir (my second Al-Qadim reference for today!). Like serious drug adicts/alcoholics can sway from the path of self-centeredness/selfishness/corruption. Of course everyone has a choice, you're right. But they could become more powerful defilers than preservers, right? They would make better defilers than preservers, but would still have the option of following either path. |
#23kalthandrixDec 09, 2005 11:47:50 | so would they be templars- only without having to prey to a SK they would draw the energy themselves? That would be cool- and a good reason for an SK to hunt them down to make sure they do not live! |
#24SysaneDec 09, 2005 11:54:23 | so would they be templars- only without having to prey to a SK they would draw the energy themselves? That would be cool- and a good reason for an SK to hunt them down to make sure they do not live! I think they would be more akin to favored souls from Complete Divine. They're basically divine sorcerers. I am like the Sha'ir option though. |