I'm running a campaign in which an evil wizard (well, part wizard, part... other things) is using the plane of Mechanus as a staging point for a power-grab on Oerth. His core troops are actually gathered from an alternate prime material, however, specifically Eberron. These troops are Warforged, and while they make good shock troops for an evil wizard (who happens to have magic at his disposal that allows him to keep a large number of Warforged under mental domination), the primary idea here is to introduce Warforged into my campaign world in small, but not insubstantial numbers (a few hundred, I expect).
So, I'm looking for input on how that would play out. They'll find themselves (once this section of the story is over) in the Pomarj, away from any major settlements. How would Warforged be treated on Oerth? How would they prove themselves more than mere constructs? Which nations would take them in and which would be hostile to them? Would the myriad guilds be willing to accept them as members? What kind of suspicions would follow them?
Thank you in advance for any help here!
First off, a warning: If you're one of my players in the Than Greyhawk game, this post is a spoiler. Please, ignore it for now.
I'm running a campaign in which an evil wizard (well, part wizard, part... other things) is using the plane of Mechanus as a staging point for a power-grab on Oerth. His core troops are actually gathered from an alternate prime material, however, specifically Eberron. These troops are Warforged, and while they make good shock troops for an evil wizard (who happens to have magic at his disposal that allows him to keep a large number of Warforged under mental domination), the primary idea here is to introduce Warforged into my campaign world in small, but not insubstantial numbers (a few hundred, I expect).
So, I'm looking for input on how that would play out. They'll find themselves (once this section of the story is over) in the Pomarj, away from any major settlements. How would Warforged be treated on Oerth? How would they prove themselves more than mere constructs? Which nations would take them in and which would be hostile to them? Would the myriad guilds be willing to accept them as members? What kind of suspicions would follow them?
Thank you in advance for any help here!
In all truthfulness, I would just use the same write up for them in the Eberron CS. It's entirely possible that they might not have to deal with proving themselves to be more than mere constructs since there is no premise for them to be perceived as such. In Eberron, warforged were initially created and known by all to be only used as fodder for battles. In Greyhawk, there's no such precedent unless you purposely fit them in as tools used during the Greyhawk Wars.
If you want to run an Eberron campaign, then do so. Otherwise,...
But that's not what this thread is about, is it? No, it's about using warforged in Greyhawk, which is perfectly viable in anyone's personal campaign, just as is using artificers as a class in Greyhawk.
First and foremost, you must remember that Greyhawk is generally considered to be a low magic setting. Thus although there are orcs and many other humanoids, they are not around in everyday life for the common man.
So seeing an orc scares the beejeeus out of the average farmers, just think of what they'd be thinking when even one mechanical suit of armor comes by.
They may be confused with a heavily armored knight, or at worst, some sort of magical construct.
In an urban city, esp. a major one like Greyhawk, Niole Dra, or some of the other centers of interest, they certainly be looked at as a construct. And in that case, I highly doubt that they'd be allowed to walk around freely.
And this is just assuming that the populace didn't know that they were part of some invasion force.
As some invasion force that fails, well I'd expect maybe one or two to live and then be captured by some crazy wizard to keep and study them. Maybe part of a circus. But roaming around free trying to become a new racial type? Doubtful. I think it's hard enough brining into Greyhawk all the new races that are brought out in new books. Goliaths are acceptable, but maybe not those winged ones in the Races of the Wild, and I think that Warforged would fall into this category of races not suitable for Greyhawk.
But the rulebook says ignore what you want and make your own game. But if you wanted to have your peers review and give you feedback, then it would best be thought out and then written down and submitted here for further feedback and criticism to clarify. After all, it might actually make sense and useable at CanonFire, OerthJournal or even as a conversion article for Dragon.
Good luck.
personally I am not a fan of robots in any D&D setting but /shrug
First and foremost, you must remember that Greyhawk is generally considered to be a low magic setting. Thus although there are orcs and many other humanoids, they are not around in everyday life for the common man.
Are we talking about the same Greyhawk? The Greyhawk where a demigod runs an empire of evil; the Greyhawk where The Orcish Empire of the Pomarj is run by... well you can guess that one; the Greyhawk where half-orcs make up 1% of the population in most major cities?
As far as being low-magic... well, I guess that depends on how you define low-magic. There are resident dragons in Greyhawk. The Circle of Eight are strongly involved in many affairs of the world. The Temple of Elemental Evil was erected nearby to Verbobonc. Every other tomb holds undead and magical treasure aplenty. Castle Greyhawk is home to who knows what. There are teleporting mages taking over deserts, an underground world full of strange creatures (though it's not as widely accessed as in, say, FR's Underdark), cities being sucked into the Abyss and spat back to Oerth, powerful temples with spell-casting clerics in every major town, guilds of mages, etc. I guess it depends on your basis for comparison.
And this is just assuming that the populace didn't know that they were part of some invasion force.
No one but a few will know that, and they know that the threat has long since passed (or will by that point, anyway). They'll never actually BE an invading army... that is just what they were being "collected" for. It was (is) the primary job of the players to thwart that before it gets started.
But if you wanted to have your peers review and give you feedback, then it would best be thought out and then written down and submitted here for further feedback and criticism to clarify
Details will not be forthcoming until after I've finished running the scenarios that introduce them. However, once I have, a summary will be available at
http://www.ajs.com/ajswiki/Than_Greyhawk
as always.
"Review" wasn't what I had in mind, though. I was more interested in some brainstorming help on the integration of Warforged into Greyhawk. They'll clearly have hurdles to overcome, but my feeling is that half-orcs are just as daunting in many ways (being directly related to a well known evil race with ties to Iuz and the Pomarj slavers).
If you want to run an Eberron campaign, then do so. Otherwise,...
I don't particularly. Wanting to run Eberron and wanting to use a race from the MM3 that happens to have COME FROM Eberron are very different things, just as wanting to use Steel (or "Greyhawk") Dragons in Eberron would not be "wanting to run a Greyhawk campaign".
The Sargent stuff arguably made Greyhawk into a high-magic setting, with the magical dirawaen roads made by summoned earth elementals and invested with permanent protective magics criss-crossing the whole of the old Aerdi empire, and demon-created fortresses and the like.
There is at least one canonical use of construct armies: the Egg of Coot in Blackmoor. The Egg might well have an army of warforged.
On a side note, the Greyhawk level of magic discussion depends a lot on what kind of magic you are talking about. Since magic is not available to any but perhaps the most talented and wealthiest 1% of the Greyhawk population (adventurers, nobles, and rulers), I'd say Greyhawk is a fairly low-magic world. Nevertheless artifacts of great power exist in the world that often have effects felt throughout entire kingdoms. This is much different from a world where magic is an integrated party of society, like Faerun, or even more so, Eberron. In Faerun, everyone knows mage and even the lowly peasant is often found using magic items. Powerful magic is a part of Faerunian life. By contrast, Eberron's magic is widespread and commonly used by even the simplest of people, yet it's power is much less pervasive and earth-shattering. So it all depends on your perspective.
This is something that the RPGA tried to shove into people's heads when the Living Greyhawk campaign was started. The fact is that if Greyhawk is low magic explain where all the magic items in the Dungeon Masters Guide come from. Most of them came from Gary's and Rob's original Greyhawk campaign. I pointed this out to Eric Mona and stated that I was corrected but that the RPGA wanted to control the amount of magic in their new campaign. So saying that Greyhawk is low magic is false.
I have also included warforged in my campaign.
With that in mind, I see no reason why they couldn't be worked-into Greyhawk in any number of ways. There is certainly no shortage of golems and other such "construct"-type creatures and also no shortage of wizards and priests sequestered in their laboratories researching new and better models. If you don't want to go with the Egg, simply have one of these NPCs create them.
First and foremost, you must remember that Greyhawk is generally considered to be a low magic setting.
This is something that the RPGA tried to shove into people's heads when the Living Greyhawk campaign was started. The fact is that if Greyhawk is low magic explain where all the magic items in the Dungeon Masters Guide come from. Most of them came from Gary's and Rob's original Greyhawk campaign. I pointed this out to Eric Mona and stated that I was corrected but that the RPGA wanted to control the amount of magic in their new campaign. So saying that Greyhawk is low magic is false.
I have also included warforged in my campaign.
Not true at all.
Greyhawk is low magic by distribution. sure Iuz has some gear but your average farmer in the realm will rarely if ever see magic used or a magic item.
compare that to eberron where everyone has magic lights in their homes nad flying trans-continental airships are not uncommon. low magic = low distribution of magic vrs high magic = everyone has access to magic.
Personally if one of my players asked to play a warforged I would veto it like woah. the eberron races are munchkin fodder for those that like to roll play not role play. every race and class in the eberron set should be +1 CL.
If you like robots, trains, magic toilets and light bulbs, and flying cars why not play eberron?
seem harsh? I do not allow psionics either. psionics and sentiant robots belong in traveller or SW not greyhawk IMO ;)
Not true at all.
Greyhawk is low magic by distribution.
Are you sure about that? As far as I know, it's supposed to have exactly as much "magic by distribution" as the standard demographics in the core rulebooks indicate. Which is a whole freakin' lot. Much more than in at least 95% of fantasy fiction I've ever read.
If you like robots, trains, magic toilets and light bulbs, and flying cars why not play eberron?
Can we get past the Eberron thing, already. Warforged were originally introduced there, but are NOT a purely Eberron creature any longer (along with everything else in the MM3). Granted, the way I'm introducing them is to literally pull them from Eberron, but that's just how I chose to do it.
That said, I think you could likely find everything that you listed above in Castle Greyhawk, the Circle of Eight's tower, the Silent Tower, Iuz's keep, most of the richest homes in Greyhawk, etc. Greyhawk is a world that is so intensely magical that no one particularly bats an eye at the fact that a demigod was trapped under one of the major cities. Nor is anyone particularly shocked that an ENTIRE CITY was sucked into the Abyss, and then returned. It's upsetting, but not exactly shocking. Yeah, low magic. Right.
As for distribution... (previous poster) I think you're confused about the FR setting. Only in the major super-cities (like Waterdeep or Baldur's Gate) is magic as common as suggested above. The same is likely true for the City of Greyhawk and a small number of other very rich cities on the Flanaess. I don't know the Eberron setting well enough to speak about it, so I'll assume you're correct there.
Yes, Warforged will "spook the natives", but I would think (please chime in if you disagree) that the average citizen of Verbobonc or Greyhawk City would be only slightly taken aback by them at first, and as knowledge of them spread, I would think that they would become no more outsiders than half-orcs within a year or two. Of course, some of that will depend on my setting up appropriate situations in which they can prove their intentions.
I do not allow psionics either. psionics and sentiant robots belong in traveller or SW not greyhawk IMO ;)
Sentient robots haved been a standard part of D&D for quite some time (Inevitables, plane of Mechanus, various instances of unique Iron Golems who were sentient, etc.)
Psionics are a matter of taste. Some people see psionics as a valid fantasy element, some do not. My take is this: allow everything but bad role players. If someone is going to munchkin without role playing, limiting them to the core classes/races/spells/etc. isn't going to help. Let them play whatever they want, and THEN force them to role play. If they refuse... well, there's this thing called a door.
Are you sure about that? As far as I know, it's supposed to have exactly as much "magic by distribution" as the standard demographics in the core rulebooks indicate. Which is a whole freakin' lot. Much more than in at least 95% of fantasy fiction I've ever read.
You're talking about magic distribution in terms of adventuring. I think the original comment about magic distribution was more in reference to what the average person in the world comes into contact with / expects. In this respect, I think that both GH and FR are low-magic worlds, but that doesn't affect player characters very much, as they usually spend most of their time in cities or in other exotic locations.
Are you sure about that? As far as I know, it's supposed to have exactly as much "magic by distribution" as the standard demographics in the core rulebooks indicate. Which is a whole freakin' lot. Much more than in at least 95% of fantasy fiction I've ever read.
Well, they altered the defaults from 3E to 3.5, but according to the 3.5 DMG characters of the particular classes get their first (permanent) item at the following levels:
Barbarian - Armor at 4th level
Bard - Amulet at 4th level
Cleric - Armor at 6th level
Druid - Armor at 6th level
Fighter - Armor at 6th level
Monk - Weapon at 3rd level
Paladin - Armor at 6th level
Ranger - Armor at 4th level
Rogue - Armor and Buckler at 7th level
Sorcerer - Bracers at 4th level
Wizard - Bracers at 4th level
Look pretty restricted to me. (And more than a little crocked, but I'll leave that for now.)
For custom NPCs, standard wealth is:
1st 900 gp (no armor or weapons)
2nd 2,000 gp (no weapon, bracers of armor or cloak of resistance possible)
3rd 2,500 gp (if weapon other gear will be nearly non-existent, amulet of natural armor or ring of protection possible)
4th 3,300 gp (both armor and weapon still not possible)
Still pretty conclusive that you need to be 5th level or above to really get outfitted.
The real issue is a combination of perception and availability, as well as overall balance.
3E/3.5 presumes a certain amount of resources to make encounters balanced at higher levels.
Further, it presumes a much higher availability of preferred items over DM selection, random or deliberate.
Together they create an impression of a significantly higher overall level of magic. In reality, the distribution is the same, or actually lower than what it is in many 1st and 2nd ed modules. But because of the enhanced portrayal of magic item purveyors in 3.5 as opposed to the near impossible task of getting an NPC spellchucker to even consider not turning you into a toad in 1st ed, people often think the peasants are now dripping with magic.
So if you want to say warforged are too high magic for Greyhawk, the 3.5 rules don't agree, and the loot in old modules doesn't agree. If anything, 3.5 is too low magic for 1st and 2nd ed Greyhawk.
So I take it you have never played the best module ever written by Gary Gygax and made for Greyhawk.
It was a cold rain, even for early Planting. The Harbormaster's Inn, located as it was 50 miles from Whyestil Lake, was always an inside joke for those who knew how the watersheds worked in these parts. Tonight Lou was glad to have an apprentice wizard for a daughter. She had been home since the festival week, and was bailing out the cellars using her magic and the natural vigor of youth when the knock came. Mac didn't stir from his corner table... same table he always took when his wife had kicked him out of the house for ... whatever. Lou got up and opened the door. At first, the cloaked figure struck him as an armored heavy horseman from Chendl ... but as he got a better look he noticed the sinew, slightly moving under the plates of steel. The 6-foot metalic figure ground out a low, "good evening sir, do you have a room?"
So what does our Innkeep do? Does he assume that he's facing a member of the horde of Iuz and call for his daughter while he dives for the sword behind the bar? Does he stammer out a "what... are you?" while our hero stands in the rain? Or, has he heard enough tails of the strange and often dangerous world of mad wizards from his daughter to not provoke it, and instead ask it if it wants a beer?
I based my thoughts on what I percive Greyhawk to be - low magic. In so much as the farmer may be attacked by an Ankheg or even a bullette, and even be raided a few times by orcs, goblins and kobolds, but would not on the average week see a group of adventurers.
Or so that is how I play my Greyhawk. I also play with Pholtus in the Pale being the only true god and all others must be false, and followers of those false gods "should" covernt, or die.
But at this point, deciding on what the Inn keeper would do would totally depend on the game that you run. Do you run a game where this inn keeper, besides having a MU daughter might run into heavily armored men, orc's and other good or evil beings? Scared or not, the innkeeper has priorities, making money, being right behind staying alive.
Whether someone is good, bad, ugly or different, may or may not matter. There was a time in the US when we wouldn't allow people to enter a drinking hole because of the color of their skin. The Pale would be such a place in Greyhawk (in regards to this guy). So lets assume that skin color doesn't matter, nor does the fact that bad guys need a place to sleep. The innkeeper wants to live and make money. He knows that if he shuts the door, and he offends the guy, he could wind up dead (MU down below or not). He also must think about letting the heavy s-o-b in the place. I'm unsure how much they weigh, but it could break a board or two.
So he says sure come on in...care to take off your armor? If the response is something like "I can't" then what can the keeper do? Certainly call for his daughter to come up and tend bar for a while. But he must also be curious as to what the h ell the thing is. Again, letting the creature in has its benefits.
It also has it's drawbacks. IT could scare away the current customers. It could make some of the drunken townsfolk scared, and with more drink, less wise, more strong and more able to do something about it. Thus damage to the inn could happen, and same with damage to his patrons (likely a drunken townsman is no match for a tired rust bucket).
And the inn keeper has 3 seconds to make his decsion at the door. Hmm.
So again, what type of game to you run?
Does your gave have a massive orcish army on the move? Does the local major city have greater than 5% population of humaniods (a 1% as someone mentioned, is not much - that's 1 in 100 and an orc can be easily missed in a group of 100, much less 100 in 10,000). Is there a human army near by? soldiers? Adventurers? How about the townsfolk, how are they gonna feel
with Innkeeper allowing a walking hulk of rust walk out of his inn in the morning? Or are they going to be upset that he didn't corral IT in his inn, so that the proper authorities could come and take care of this Thing?
If you want a proper answer, you need to give DETAILS (its in the devil) to what your world is like, because as is, and this is where we all must base our information, Greyhawk does not have these things. So by going by generic Greyhawk, we wouldn't have this discussion, which is where you are asking us to come up with opinions from.
Be Well.
Does your gave have a massive orcish army on the move? Does the local major city have greater than 5% population of humaniods
I cherry-picked these questions to highlight what I think the difference in approach was, here. I wasn't asking people how this would play out in THEIR campaigns or MINE. I was asking about GREYHAWK. For example, does the local major city have greater than 5% population of humanoids? I mentioned in the text taht that was Chendl. You can just look that up in the LGG, the figures are all clearly outlined.
Is there a massive orcish army on the move? Well, depends on your definition of "move". I chose Furyondy as the location for this example carefully. This particular part of Furyondy (50 miles from the lake which is bordered by both Iuz and Furyondy) was actively controled by Iuz's forces during (and I think slightly after) the Greyhawk Wars, so there's going to be a strong local memory of what it's like to deal with evil creatures.
That's probably good and bad for our Warforged friend. On the one hand, Lou will have some basic intuitive grasp of what "evil hordes" are like, and won't imediately pick this guy out as such. On the other hand, there's going to be a strong sentiment against any kind of magical creatures, so he'll have to cope with that.
Of course, former occupied lands in Furyondy were just an example. These guys are going to hit the ground in the Pomarj, where of course, evil reigns (but a more constructive evil than Iuz is known for). They'll probably be feared there, but that fear will also get them some respect. I'm sure there would be some who would take advantage of that fear and stay.
Others will move on. To the west is the Principality of Ulek. They'll probably run into dwarven soldiers first. That will be interesting, I'm sure, but I can see it coming out as a net positive experience. Dwarves know enough about how metal is used on the Flaness that they will quickly learn that there is no one building anything like these anywhere, and even the Gnomes of the Kron hills and sages of Greyhawk will be impressed with their design. Some will doubtless be held (some of their own free will... others not) for investigation. Others will start to disperse into the surrounding territories. If any of them make it to the lands controlled by the Scarlet Brotherhood, I'm sure they would not last long. On the other hand, some would meet up with adventurers or find a wizard willing to help them try to find a way home.
Overall, I think enough of them would become integrated into Oerth that they would be able to justify being used by PCs as starting races. Does anyone see any significant problems with this based, not on your own games, but on the core materials? Something I've missed?
So I take it you have never played the best module ever written by Gary Gygax and made for Greyhawk.
village of hommlet? yes I have it on my desk atm.
Sentient robots haved been a standard part of D&D for quite some time (Inevitables, plane of Mechanus, various instances of unique Iron Golems who were sentient, etc.)
key words here being extra-planar or unique.
Overall, I think enough of them would become integrated into Oerth that they would be able to justify being used by PCs as starting races. Does anyone see any significant problems with this based, not on your own games, but on the core materials? Something I've missed?
The trick with this question is that a setting is seldom described in terms of what can never be found there. It's more a matter of looking at the broad picture and drawing conclusions.
For instance, both DL and FR have their share of weird-looking (often 'monstrous') races. But while in DL they came as a direct consequence of the War of the Lance (and events that followed), in FR they come literally from everywhere and everywhen (if there is such a word).
Mechanical races aren't unknown but the main example being the Modrons doesn't really help as that particular race fits only Planescape.
Sentient mechanical constructs can be found on GH (Clockwork Fortress), DL (Mt Nevermind), and FR (Undermountain, to name only one place) but none of them are as widespread as Warforged are on Eberron, and all of them are feared at best and despised at worst.
While I am sure quite a few GH 'specialists' would love to get their hands on one for study, I am equally sure that the common folks would likely freak out if they met one. Non-hostile monstrous races aren't exactly welcomed in most parts of the Flanaess (with the exception of the Bone March and the Pomarj), even in the City of Greyhawk itself. And we're not talking flesh & bones folks here but metal & gears.
The little segment of the population known as 'adventurers' would probably classify warforged as golems (albeit weird ones) at first look, reach for their weapons and spells first and ask questions later. The few folks who have survived an encounter with an 'out-of-control' golem generally have no wish to live through it again. So, at the first hint that the 'monster' isn't under the direct control of someone else, things will get rough for the warforged.
Even if cool heads prevail and the warforged is taken into custody for interrogation by local authorities, what would you expect most of them would do with it? It's not a 'living' being by their definition, so the laws that protect normal folks don't apply. Hence, they could poke at it for centuries if they wanted to. Most rulers wouldn't take the risk of letting it go for fear of what might happen (or of 'who' might capture it for study).
I certainly can't see one being able to venture into any village/town/city without dreadful consequences. A druid or ranger warforged (which is a stupid concept in itself, if you ask me, given those classes are meant for living beings) could probably survive on its own as an hermit in the wilderness. Or adventure with some folks who have come to trust it, but on the condition that he would wait for them outside every time they went to visit a community of any kind.
That said, I think you could likely find everything that you listed above in Castle Greyhawk, the Circle of Eight's tower, the Silent Tower, Iuz's keep, most of the richest homes in Greyhawk, etc. Greyhawk is a world that is so intensely magical that no one particularly bats an eye at the fact that a demigod was trapped under one of the major cities. Nor is anyone particularly shocked that an ENTIRE CITY was sucked into the Abyss, and then returned. It's upsetting, but not exactly shocking. Yeah, low magic. Right.
The first 4 locations you listed aren't exactly easy to reach, nor to visit by all but the most powerful individuals. And I think you have the wrong idea about what rich people have in their home in GH (be it the city or the world). Sure, some will have "guardian creatures" (of which golems are part of) and magical items. Most, however, will just have 'normal' bodyguards.
I would like to know where it is stated that:
a) everybody knew ?
b) those who knew didn't "bat an eye" or weren't shocked.
Ask anyone living in Istivin right now. They were downright traumatized. The few that survived to return to the city once adventurers got it out of the Abyss, that is!
Just because some highly magical things happened in this world and "you" (the guy who reads the books) know about it and weren't impressed doesn't mean the natives do or didn't freak out about it.
Take a look at what happened to those soldiers who defended the Nyrond/Almor border during the last war. These guys were farmers drafted into the army and they ended up fighting demons who slaughtered them as if they were cattles. Do you seriously think those folks just yawned and returned home thinking it was a 'normal day' in the Flanaess? Come on!
As for the players themselves. No, most aren't "shocked" by such news because they are "old" news. Some of us were actually around when those stories (and the modules they are drawn from) were first published but many discovered them later as part of the rich history of the setting, which always helps make it more believable. If it happened every year, all over the place, then yes, more than a few of us would be shocked. But it doesn't.
For instance, I wouldn't expect any current nation to be able to pull a stunt like the Rain of Colorless Fire. It's the same as hearing about Hiroshima. Yes, it happened. Yes, it could happen again. But no, it won't happen on a daily basis and it will never become "common place".
After this post, I'm no longer participating in this forum topic. People here have provided you with examples and ideas. I have as well.
Yes you did say a particular city and its location and even its unique name. But, as I mentioned, it is your world we must be discussing, yet you clarify that it is not your version of Greyhawk, but THE offical version of Greyhawk and our thoughts as to what would happen if.....
As the official Greyhawk has no Warforged, and no pending offical books (RPGA is not the official world of Greyhawk, it is just another campaign, much like my campaign affects the world, as does each person's Greyhawk) with Warforged, and as you stated after my post regarding making it officicial-istic/canonical that you are not interested in this, you are not writing a Greyhawk-Warforged book. Furthing my position that we discussing your version of Greyhawk.
It is not that we are splitting hairs regarding canon vs non-canon. What we are discussing is that ideas have been presented and as is more than your right, to dislike or ignore them. Yet, you wish to make points and references as if my thoughts and points are not just pointless, but are idiotic.
As such, I don't wish to waste the time reading, considering, replying, or further discussing the concept. I wish you well in your endevour to get Warforged in Greyhawk, in your campaign. If and when an official product (yes, all books are "set in the default world of Greyhawk", yet there are descriptions that clarify environs such as Eberron) then we'll know.
"The little segment of the population known as 'adventurers' would probably classify warforged as golems (albeit weird ones) at first look, reach for their weapons and spells first and ask questions later."
You know, while not fully related to this topic, I think this is something I've seen many DMs gloss over in general. Unless your particular campaign has an overwhelmingly cosmopolitan base, lots of the more unusual PCs -- a character with a few levels in Dragon Disciple, most any 'weird' or non-standard race, etc. -- would very likely get potentially hostile or at least very negative reactions from your Joe Everypeasant. I've played in too many games where the DM just kinda glosses over the PC's race with a "okay, the innkeeper looks at you funny, but shrugs and gets your drinks anyway."...
As for, "where does it state"... I'm kind of shocked folks haven't read LGG. To quote from pp.13-15:
"The commonly understood history of the Flanaess ... In truth Iuz was imprisoned beneath Castle Greyhawk ... In 570 CY a meddlesome warrior-adventurer name Lord Robilar freed Iuz"
This is supposed to be the history that the common man is aware of circa late 580s, early 590s CY.
The Abyss reference is slightly more obscure, so I'm not shocked that folks aren't familiar with it. That was mentioned recently in Dungeon issue 117, "Touch of the Abyss", and I'm sure it was part of a larger story line that I have not read. The background is not explicitly stated as being available to the PCs and general public, but it seems to imply that these events were relatively well known (the city of Istivin was encased in a black dome and when it returned people spoke of it as having a "touch of the Abyss"). The fact that anyone lived there after this is telling on its own.
I'm astonished by how hostile folks are to this idea, but point taken. I'll just run my game and not try to use these forums for further brainstorming on game-world ideas.
As for, "where does it state"... I'm kind of shocked folks haven't read LGG. To quote from pp.13-15:
This is supposed to be the history that the common man is aware of circa late 580s, early 590s CY.
And how would a peasant in hommlet or the kron hills know this?
The Abyss reference is slightly more obscure, so I'm not shocked that folks aren't familiar with it. That was mentioned recently in Dungeon issue 117, "Touch of the Abyss", and I'm sure it was part of a larger story line that I have not read. The background is not explicitly stated as being available to the PCs and general public, but it seems to imply that these events were relatively well known (the city of Istivin was encased in a black dome and when it returned people spoke of it as having a "touch of the Abyss"). The fact that anyone lived there after this is telling on its own.
Its your game. if you want to munchkin it out with warforged or what not go nuts man.
I'm astonished by how hostile folks are to this idea, but point taken. I'll just run my game and not try to use these forums for further brainstorming on game-world ideas.
It's not "hostility". It's "honesty". You asked for what we thought about it but don't care to listen to what we have to say
As for, "where does it state"... I'm kind of shocked folks haven't read LGG. To quote from pp.13-15:
This is supposed to be the history that the common man is aware of circa late 580s, early 590s CY.
"Commonly understood" to players who happen to read the book, or to the few sages living in the Flanaess and which have access to "world news". Not to JoeAverage.
The Abyss reference is slightly more obscure, so I'm not shocked that folks aren't familiar with it. That was mentioned recently in Dungeon issue 117, "Touch of the Abyss", and I'm sure it was part of a larger story line that I have not read. The background is not explicitly stated as being available to the PCs and general public, but it seems to imply that these events were relatively well known (the city of Istivin was encased in a black dome and when it returned people spoke of it as having a "touch of the Abyss"). The fact that anyone lived there after this is telling on its own.
I am perfectly aware that you were speaking of Istivin. Else, I wouldn't have named the city in my previous post. That event occured in the GDQ 1-7 Queen of the Spiders mega-module. It was published in 1986. That was 20 years ago, so - yeah - old news to "some" of us. Just because Dungeon decided to publish a spin-off about it doesn't change that fact.
village of hommlet? yes I have it on my desk atm.
Expedition to Barrier Peaks was a million times better than Hommlet.
1: "Warforged should git back to Eberron where they belong."
This is an opinion that's been suggested by onw or two people in the thread (I'm paraphrasing) and they're entitled to it. I disagree though. If someone wants wareforged in their campaign (and that's how the question was framed), then so be it. The DM is master of his own domain. Saying "run an Eberron campaign" isn't terribly helpful and is, I think, a symptom of the phobia of other campaign words (and Eberron in particualr) that some 'Hawkers have. While I'm not a fan of arcane tech, Eberron has some very interesting features and characters.
2: Low magic/High magic.
One of those eternally reincarnating subjects...
There's a big difference in opinion on this - largely because people have a lot of different ways of defining high and low magic. For some, its the highest level of magic in the setting (eg demi-god ruling empire); for others it's the average level of magic or its distribution in the world (eg what does the common farmer think of magic; how much magical tech is there?).
Generally, when a 'Hawker says GH is low magic, he means the latter - that every hamlet and village doesn't have a magical mill or a druid casting plant growth on crops. There's no magical tech infrstructure like continual flame lamposts or lightning rails. Yes, there might be telporting mages taking over desert kingdoms, but they're rare and they don't impinge on the life of the average peasent. In that sense GH is low-magic (i.e. powerful magic is relatively rare and concentrated in the hands of a small minority of the population).
Another thing to remember is that adventurers are not your average joe serf. They are rare (in comparison to the rest of the populace) and have resources and wealth vastly in excess of your average peasent in the field. They are in effect a minor elite and you can't make any real extrapolations from adventurers to the bulk of the populace.
Finally, people said GH was low-magic way before LG came along. It's not an RPGA conspiracy or invention. I'm guessing Erik added that tag to try and distinguish GH in the minds of new players from FR (which has a slightly bigger distribution of magic among the populace IMO).
P.
""In general, the humanoid races regard the warforged as an unpleasant reminder of the brutality of war and avoid dealing with them whenever possible. Some societies regard them as the property of the miltiary forces that paid to have them build, and most warfoged in those lands serve as slave laborers. In other lands, they are free but sometimes the victims of dsicrimination, hard-pressed to find work or any kind of acceptance."
That pretty much seems to cover the general response over and above "They aren't Greyhawk." So not only do you want to just toss them into Greyhawk, you also don't want to use them as presented. Your question would better be phrased as:
"I want to add a new race of living constructs to my Greyhawk campaign. They will have the same stats as the warforged, but people will be more accepting of them. Who has any ideas on how that will affect things in the game?"
I would also note that living constructs aren't actually alive. They can suffer critical hits and have a Constitution score, but they don't eat, sleep, breathe, or reproduce. A better term for them would be sentient constructs, but that might get confused with some other construct types that are also independently self-aware. So even Good nations don't have to consider them as anything other than property (slaves) as there is no "respect of life" issue involved. A warforged is little more than an intelligent sword that really does walk away if it gets fed up with you resisting its control. So even if warforged show up, I don't see them being wanted anywhere except by the rulers. For ordinary people they will just be competition.
It's not "hostility". It's "honesty". You asked for what we thought about it but don't care to listen to what we have to say
Ah, that would be the misunderstanding. I guess if you want to share what you think of it, that's fine, and I wouldn't dream of stopping you. But, some people seemed to be getting downright hostile because I wasn't taking their opinion on the quality of the idea as input. That's correct, I'm not using that information. I asked:
So, I'm looking for input on how that would play out.
I then further clarified with an example. Only one person replied with anything like an evaluation of that example (thanks TheocratIssak), but even then it was more of a "well, if your campaign is of the sort..." which clearly indicates that I must have mis-asked the question. I was intending to ask, "what happens in GREYHAWK when Warforged are introduced out the blue," not "what happens in campaign X."
Then at some point this devolved down into people saying that they'd had enough of my wanting an answer to the question. The question, for those still not recalling is: what happens next? Which kingdoms react how? Who comes to their defense? Who decides they're clearly agents of evil? Who decides that they should BECOME agents of evil? Where does that go?
I'll end up having to answer all of these questions, but I thought others might have thought it through already, and wanted to see if I was missing any of the obvious reactions from the Flanaess.
"Commonly understood" to players who happen to read the book, or to the few sages living in the Flanaess and which have access to "world news". Not to JoeAverage.
That's not common knowledge, that's researchable lore. There's a level at which history is roughly known by those who listen to the bards and hear the talk in the towns. My impression was that the 3-page history of the Flanaess in LGG was a distilation of the latter (with all of the potential problems that that brings in terms of accuracy, etc.)
I am perfectly aware that you were speaking of Istivin. Else, I wouldn't have named the city in my previous post. That event occured in the GDQ 1-7 Queen of the Spiders mega-module. It was published in 1986. That was 20 years ago, so - yeah - old news to "some" of us. Just because Dungeon decided to publish a spin-off about it doesn't change that fact.
Doesn't change... what? I still take any side-bar in a module like that (unless it clearly says otherwise) as the sort of thing that is in the standard list of bardic songs, traveller lore, etc. It's the kind of thing your average barkeep would know in a big city, and most people who live on any kind of trade route will hear eventually.
But again, that's off the point (it was, if you recall, a sub-topic of the magic-level question, which I think is kind of moot, since we already know that people cope with all sorts of obvious strangeness from "adventurers").
I was more interested in the immediate and personal associations and the large-scale political implications. The "OMFG, you're EVIL!" reaction is going to happen with Half-Orcs too, but it won't happen all the time, and it won't much affect the larger picture. That's why I used a Furyondian as an example. He has some real history to grind through when he's deciding how to react, and he's going to do all of that in a couple of seconds at most. He might assume this is some Iuz-summoned evil, but he's probably savvy enough to know that's not the only possibility.... The propagation idea is another way to look at it. You can fllow them from the northern Pomarj, and just figure out where they go... some will make it to Highport... that's an interesting place. Brings slavery up as a topic. Some will make it acrosss the Wooly Bay to the Bright Desert... hmmm, some interesting times to be had there. What's starmetal plating get you? ;)
I'm just trying to brainstorm ideas, but perhaps this was the wrong place to do it.
Does all of this make sense, or am I still muddying the waters?
The only similar case would be that of the Rhennee. Considering they are still considered outcastes and unwanted gypsies decades after their introduction to the Flaeness tells me that the warforged will be looking at centuries of out right hostility if not blatant racism for centuries to come. And the Rhennee look like regular humans!
People in general are bigoted and unaccepting and when faced with something alien and scary would be even more so. Add to this you are postulating that warforged stem from an invading army and I doubt if they would be fun race to play in your campaign.
The closest example I can think of would be playing a drow character without the cool extra racial traits that make them +2 LA. A warforged at worst would be hunted or attacked by random strangers and at best treated like a 3rd class citizen. Worse than a half-orc I would say.
The only similar case would be that of the Rhennee. Considering they are still considered outcastes and unwanted gypsies decades after their introduction to the Flaeness tells me that the warforged will be looking at centuries of out right hostility if not blatant racism for centuries to come. And the Rhennee look like regular humans!
Well there you go. Good example.
People in general are bigoted and unaccepting and when faced with something alien and scary would be even more so. Add to this you are postulating that warforged stem from an invading army and I doubt if they would be fun race to play in your campaign.
Ignore the army thing. No one knows that, and there are only three sources of such rumors. One of them is my players, and I have a suspicion that they'll have their hands full. One is the Warforged themselves... "you can trust me... I came here to kill people"... and the last is an evil mage who may or may not be dead, and if he's not, he'll be too focused on revenge against the PCs to care about his previous fodder (his means of controling them being either destroyed or permanently unavailable, depending on what they PCs do).
A warforged at worst would be hunted or attacked by random strangers and at best treated like a 3rd class citizen. Worse than a half-orc I would say.
Huh. Do you have a sense of where they might fit in best? The Pomarj seemed a likely thing to me, since (as I stated before), they would at least have some benefit from being scary looking in a realm that's mostly ruled by force of arms. Perhaps they would also do well in those places where they could most easily demonstrate their positive qualities. A warforged who fought Iuz scouts along the Furyondy border might well be accepted more readily than one that simply said, "we come in peace, I'm known as a Warforged." ;)
The only similar case would be that of the Rhennee. Considering they are still considered outcastes and unwanted gypsies decades after their introduction to the Flaeness.
Centuries. The Rhennee are thought to have appeared on Oerth circa 150 CY, according to The Adventure Begins.
village of hommlet? yes I have it on my desk atm.
Expedition to Barrier Peaks was a million times better than Hommlet.
We will have to disagree sir
In my mind the T1-4 A1-4 G1-3 D1-3 X1 was the tops for D&D. practically a full campaign right there
Then at some point this devolved down into people saying that they'd had enough of my wanting an answer to the question. The question, for those still not recalling is: what happens next? Which kingdoms react how? Who comes to their defense? Who decides they're clearly agents of evil? Who decides that they should BECOME agents of evil? Where does that go?
It is your campaign.. you tell us.
In my campaign it is a non-issue since I would never add warforged. It is just my preference that I keep the fantasy fantasy and leave the sci fi for star frontiers or traveller. None of us on these boards will ever be able to give you the answers you seek as the question is one tied to you and your campaign alone. prsonally I think the warforged in GH would be killed on sight by most nations.
In closing.. do what you want as long as you and your group is having fun.
It is your campaign.. you tell us.
I guess that's a difference between the way you and I approach campaign worlds. I don't consider it "my campaign", but "my Greyhawk campaign". It's a bit like throwing a rock on a trampoline. I can decide how large a rock, and where to throw it, but I don't decide where it goes after that. That should simply procede from the fact that there's a trampoline involved, and physics does its thing with a mostly elastic collision. Same goes for Greyhawk, and as Lassiviren made clear, there are some signposts to go by.
If I wanted to make it up as I go, I'd be running my own world (and I have in the past), but when I base a game on an existing world, I do so to play with the way the existing world reacts to what I and the players do. Seeking input from the community that surrounds that game world seems to make sense, when I'm not as steeped in the history of that world as others.
If you don't do that, then that's fine, but then I wouldn't expect you to ask the kind of question I did.
If I wanted to make it up as I go, I'd be running my own world (and I have in the past), but when I base a game on an existing world, I do so to play with the way the existing world reacts to what I and the players do. Seeking input from the community that surrounds that game world seems to make sense, when I'm not as steeped in the history of that world as others.
If you don't do that, then that's fine, but then I wouldn't expect you to ask the kind of question I did.
Not to argue but if you believed that you probably would not drop in an entire race from another setting into greyhawk. But it is your game and your world so do what you want.
Personally I am a purest with regards to greyhawk I generally use only what is in the 83 box set release and the LGC. Not saying my way is better than your but will say it is my preference.
Not to argue but if you believed that
When you don't want to argue, don't lead with "you're sayign it, but you don't believe it." Tends to make it seem as if you're saying that you don't want to argue, but .... ;)
you probably would not drop in an entire race from another setting into greyhawk.
Like I've said before (is this thing on?), let's drop the Eberron thing. NO creature in the MM3 is "from Eberron", they're "from the MM3, an approved core D&D suplement."
You also mis-read what I wrote. I was saying that I do what I do in my game, but I let those things play out the way the setting seems to dictate. I see the setting as "physics" for the storyline. I might build a car and drive it from one place to another, but HOW that works is a matter of physics. I might introduce half-beholder Illithid, but HOW they interact with the Flanaess is going to be equal parts where I "drive" them and how Greyhawk would react to such a thing. There are clear, well-defined forces in this world that have been expanded on for 30 years. Ignoring that and just "running my campaign" would do myself and my players a disservice, no?
Personally I am a purest with regards to greyhawk I generally use only what is in the 83 box set release and the LGC. Not saying my way is better than your but will say it is my preference.
Again, preference isn't terribly pertinent. I was asking, "what would Greyhawk do,"... it's a bit like "what would Ted Kopple do if you dropped a brick on his head." It's not that bricks drop on his head on a daily basis, but you could probably extrapolate his reaction from his personality, no?
Is this making sense? I'm going on and on in this thread because I want to figure out where I went wrong in asking what I thought was a simple question: how does the Flanaess react to sentient constructs in small, but substantial numbers?
Like I've said before (is this thing on?), let's drop the Eberron thing. NO creature in the MM3 is "from Eberron", they're "from the MM3, an approved core D&D suplement."
Warforged were created as part of the Eberron system. regardless of thier being in the MM3 they are and always will be from Eberron. Your argument is the same as saying Tyr is no longer a norse god because he is in the FR books.
You also mis-read what I wrote. I was saying that I do what I do in my game, but I let those things play out the way the setting seems to dictate. I see the setting as "physics" for the storyline. I might build a car and drive it from one place to another, but HOW that works is a matter of physics. I might introduce half-beholder Illithid, but HOW they interact with the Flanaess is going to be equal parts where I "drive" them and how Greyhawk would react to such a thing.
You are the DM, it is you who decides how things will be reacted to and interacted with by the world you run.
There are clear, well-defined forces in this world that have been expanded on for 30 years. Ignoring that and just "running my campaign" would do myself and my players a disservice, no?
Not if you are having fun then no it wouldnt do you or your players a deservice. But if you are overly concerned with GH tradition I would probably not add player races from the eberron setting. that is just my opinion though.
Again, preference isn't terribly pertinent.
This entire thread is about preference.
I was asking, "what would Greyhawk do,"... it's a bit like "what would Ted Kopple do if you dropped a brick on his head."
It is nothing like that as you do not control Ted Kopple but you do control your GH campaign world and all the NPCs in it. you tell us what your GH would do. Mine would not bother since I would not try to inject warforged into it.
It's not that bricks drop on his head on a daily basis, but you could probably extrapolate his reaction from his personality, no?
regardless of the fact that a brick to the skull would probably be fatal this has nothing to do with your question really as you do not control Mr Kopple but you control your GH NPCs
Is this making sense? I'm going on and on in this thread because I want to figure out where I went wrong in asking what I thought was a simple question: how does the Flanaess react to sentient constructs in small, but substantial numbers?
You are changing the nature of GH by injecting a race from eberron. If you like the idea run with it. IMO it is against the very nature of Greyhawk but /shrugs thats just one mans opinion and future campaign suppliments may prove me wrong. Besides warforged are a munchkins ***dream what with the laundry list of immunities and powers they get. If you think adding a race that doesnt need to breath, sleep, eat, and can have DR at lvl one is a great idea go nuts. never mind the immune to level drain and a list of mind control spells.
You are changing the nature of GH by injecting a race from eberron. If you like the idea run with it. IMO it is against the very nature of Greyhawk but /shrugs thats just one mans opinion and future campaign suppliments may prove me wrong. Besides warforged are a munchkins ***dream what with the laundry list of immunities and powers they get. If you think adding a race that doesnt need to breath, sleep, eat, and can have DR at lvl one is a great idea go nuts. never mind the immune to level drain and a list of mind control spells.
Until they try to recover lost hit points in a world with no artificers.
Plus, it doesn't matter if you take less damage from each attack if you draw more attacks than anyone else due to being so weird and threatening in the first place.
Checks and balances, mate... ;)
As an aside: Since when were magical golems "science fiction?"
Until they try to recover lost hit points in a world with no artificers.
True unless a few of the warforged that are dropped into GH are artificers or possess the repair skill.
Plus, it doesn't matter if you take less damage from each attack if you draw more attacks than anyone else due to being so weird and threatening in the first place.
Sure it does. figure a warforged with the right feats has a DR of 2 IIRC. a wf fighter with a high con begins the game with 15 hp and a 18AC. he decides to fight 6 goblins, given this set up the warforged wil be able to ignore one third of the hits he recieves on average from the morning stars and half the damage from the javelins. working the averages the warforged will win.
That is also not taking into account that in combat most people are gonna swing at the closest target which may or may not be the warforged.
Checks and balances, mate... ;)
Not really
As an aside: Since when were magical golems "science fiction?"
Warforged are not golems so much as they are an artificial life form and in that context are more android than golem.
Warforged are not golems so much as they are an artificial life form and in that context are more android than golem.
I am not buying it. Science fiction is definied by the presence of, appropriately enough, fictional science. Golems in D&D are magical, not the product of any real or imagined scientific knowledge.
Like I've said before (is this thing on?), let's drop the Eberron thing. NO creature in the MM3 is "from Eberron", they're "from the MM3, an approved core D&D suplement."
That's fine.
But it still ignores what I said about you ignoring all of the "approved core D&D" background on warforged in the MM3 entry.
So you are not in fact even using such a creature, but are instead inserting a variant of said creature into the world.
As such, it is impossible for anyone to offer any reasonable suggestions, as you are taking away any possible basis for them to use. They can't refer to Eberron, and they can't even refer to the MM3 entry describing warforged.
I am not buying it. Science fiction is definied by the presence of, appropriately enough, fictional science. Golems in D&D are magical, not the product of any real or imagined scientific knowledge.
Clarke's Law and Foglio's Rebuttal.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Any sufficiently powerful magic is indistinguishable from technology.
Golems are a multi-genre trope.
Warforged were created as part of the Eberron system. regardless of thier being in the MM3 they are and always will be from Eberron.
That would be a "no" on my desperate plea to drop it, and return to the point at hand, eh?
This entire thread is about preference.
No, your RESPONSES are, and I'm still not sure why.
You are changing the nature of GH by injecting a race from eberron. If you like the idea run with it.
You can stop suggesting that if I like it, I should do it. It's already done. My question had NOTHING to do with what I should or should not do. My question was about the reaction of the world. Thankfully a few others did explore it a bit, so I have some pointers to follow up.
Besides warforged are a munchkins dream what with the laundry list of immunities and powers they get.
Good DMing is about valuing the story over mechanics. If the STORY benefits from the addition of 600/- DR diminutive demons, then you find a way to make it work in a balanced way. NEVER avoid a story line because of mechanics.
Clarke's Law and Foglio's Rebuttal ... Golems are a multi-genre trope.
Yes, but no one has, to my knowledge, attempted to claim that the sinew inside a Warforged's plating is some sort of bio-engineered substance. Warforged are technically (rules-wise) and in practice, magical constructs. They are sentient, but that sentience is not the result of highly complex programming (as in, say the Terminator movies or Asimov's "The Last Question"), rather it arises from highly complex magical enchantments (and possibly the binding of some sort of spirit to the construct... which would be my theory... and raises some great storyline possibilities...).
All of this, of course, doesn't tell us much about how the nations and peoples of the Flanaess react, since they wouldn't know the difference. Ultimately, I think the safe way to go is to assume that they treat the Warforged as constructs until they prove otherwise. There's a point at which their actions will demonstrate that they cannot be percieved as mere tools, but that's probably several years down the road, and outside the scope of my immediate story.
That means that the average Warforged will be at a serious disadvantage, but for the player with the appropriate role playing chops, that should be an interesting challenge. At the very least, they'll make for excellent NPCs, perhaps aiding the party in order to prove themselves. Or perhaps some ally with enemies of the party for protection. No matter what, it should be interesting.
If anyone has specific thougths on how any of the established groups or cultures would react, I'd love to hear it. I'm going to be plotting out the impact of the Warforged on the storyline over the next month or so, so I'll keep checking back here.
The PCs were taken back in time to the year 354 CY by the chronomancer Lysander. They went to the island of the Pirate King Jonton Hobbes (who was actually a freedom fighter, trying to stop the beginnings of corruption in the Great Kingdom) only a week or two before the whole place was wiped out by the Aerdi Armada (all part of my Greyhawk's history).
Backstory aside, Lysander had brought the PCs to the time to help him stop another chronomancer he had learned was trying to steal from Hobbes.
In the course of the investigation of the other wizard, the party learns that he uses some kind of golems to both sail and guard his ship. These turn out to be mithral warforged and there are about a dozen of them.
The PCs never faced the warforged (which the other chronomancer, also being a planar traveler, had commissioned on Eberron during the wars) in combat but found it quite interesting to question one on what he was. Tthere were only a dozen or so of them and they were pretty new: they had yet to develop very distinct personalities.
Unfortunately for the warforged, this chronomancer's time machine was a ship. In an earlier campaign, a later version of the same wizard had picked up some of the PCs and dropped them in various places (all in the quest to get an ancient suloise book that one girl had). He got the book but both he and the book disappeared.
The ship and the warforged were abandoned sometime in 590 CY or so (possibly sooner, I forget) before the mage got the book and lost his powers. The ship was anchored in a lagoon on an island not far from Onnwal (or possibly Idee - I forget specifics and don't have my notes). A storm either wrecked the ship or simply sank it intact and the warforged were forced to exist on the island. I had plans for the players to stumble upon these warforged (marooned on a deserted island) at some future date. Most of them would have been destroyed by the creatures on the island, others survived as best they could.
Sorry, it doesn't really answer you question about how typical folks would deal with warforged. My own use of the warforged in Greyhawk remains very limited. No one except those on the island of Safehold dealt with them and Jonton Hobbes' pirates (and all the rest living on that island) simply though they were some kind of golem that the mage was using.
And MMIII, like it or not, made Warforged just another monster, useable in any setting. They originated in Eberron but drow originated in GH. Monsters get "genercized." It is the way of things.
Personally, I have no problem with Warforged in GH. The difficulty is working with their backstory, which I think the OP may have been trying to get at.
In a nutshell, warforged were mass-produced, magically animated and sentient "troops." Fitting that particular backstory into the Flanaess (note I did not say GH) is not immediately a smooth fit. One can ignore or change the backstory, of course. But making the backstory fit is an interesting exercise.
One easy answer - GH warforged are not native or "from" the Flanaess. They come from somewhere else on Oerth. They would then be encountered more rarely. People would probably mistake a warforged for (1) an unusual construct or (2) a guy in really odd armor. In either case, people would likely be as curious as anything else. In a big city, a warforged would likely be able to exist without too much trouble. In rural areas, he might be initially feared or mistrusted but once he proved himself (say taking out the small goblin band that had been menacing the village) he would be just fine.
It is when the warforged backstory is to be placed in the Flanaess that more trouble arises.
All of the Dungeon articles mentioned above offer possibilities, with the warforged as an expansion or "more of not quite the same."
Same with S3 - the warforged might not be from Oerth at all! We already have two instances where the S3 ship came down in pieces parts (S3 and James Jacobs' Dragon article). We also have the note that there is a "Sheen" cyst in the Barrier Peaks (See the Sheen Dragon articles). It is as nothing to say the warforged were "ship troops" who survived the crash.
If, however, the warforged were created in the Flanaess as mass-produced, magically animated and sentient troops - that will require much more explaination. When this occurred will be as important as by whom and where. The history of the Flanaess post-Cataclysms is fairly well known and would then rule out mass-produced warforged (including consideration of Baron Lum and Leuk-O). It would seem the warforged would then be either very recent or very ancient.
Very recent? Your campaign. Your rules.
Very ancient? We know next to nothing about the ancient Flan kingdoms. Possibilities abound. I immediately think Dr. Who's Tomb of the Cybermen. Tomb of the Warforged? IMO, this idea would have "legs."
NB - Warforged as "munchkin?" Try 3X as "munchkin" by that standard. I think "munchkin" arguments are irrelevant.
Yes, but no one has, to my knowledge, attempted to claim that the sinew inside a Warforged's plating is some sort of bio-engineered substance. Warforged are technically (rules-wise) and in practice, magical constructs. They are sentient, but that sentience is not the result of highly complex programming (as in, say the Terminator movies or Asimov's "The Last Question"), rather it arises from highly complex magical enchantments (and possibly the binding of some sort of spirit to the construct... which would be my theory... and raises some great storyline possibilities...).
Except they can be healed by cure wounds spells. That seems a bit biological there.
Except they are partly composed of darkwood, which is a biological substances.
Except that magical constructs can be made of biological materials, like flesh golems.
Except this month's Sage Advice contains the passage: "It's not clear, for instance, that the "fibrous bundles" that make up the body of a warforged wouldn't ooze some sort of life-giving fluid when damaged."
So perhaps they are composed of some bio-engineered substance?
In what way is highly complex "programming" different from "magical enchantments"?
Are not constructs actually given orders, that is to say "programs" to follow when created?
Are not warforged simply capable of additional reasoning to carry out those orders?
So indeed they are "artifical intelligences", just like any self-aware robot.
Artificiers make golems, and other magical devices.
Engineers make robots, and other technological devices.
The two terms are in fact synonyms.
So it would seem warforged and golems are sci-fi in fantasy, or fantasy in sci-fi.
However it seems you had already decided how people would react to warforged and were just looking for approval. If you ask people's opinions you should be prepared for negative ones. Some people don't like the idea. That happens.
warforged are nothing like the robots in S3 in one very important way. the robots in S3 are not a player race and are more rare than dragons.
as for the drow from GH to FR thing.
taking a race from an older setting into a new one is no problem as it does not interfere with the continuity of the world. adding a new PC race especially one so alien as warforged to a world that has been established almost three decades is impossible without rewriting the setting.
And to answer the MM3 debate. Eberron is the official WotC DnD setting and it is assumed that every book released that does not explicitly say otherwise is for use in eberron. WotC does not release Greyhawk material anymore outside of the core books ie; DMG PHB and MM.
MM3 is not greyhawk material.
However it seems you had already decided how people would react to warforged and were just looking for approval. If you ask people's opinions you should be prepared for negative ones. Some people don't like the idea. That happens.
QFT
That is, unless you include the corollary, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is vulnerable to Mordenkainen's Disjunction."
I don't think Clarke's Law is applicable in D&D.
That is, unless you include the corollary, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is vulnerable to Mordenkainen's Disjunction."
Maybe it is.
Has anyone actually considered rules for such?
The debate isnt about adding a monster to GH in a unique dungeon. It is about adding a new PC race from a vastly different setting. warforged are nothing like the robots in S3 in one very important way. the robots in S3 are not a player race and are more rare than dragons.
So, the "PC" factor makes all the difference? I don't see it. Savage Species (Wotc) allows you to play any number of PC races well outside the human/elf/dwarf/gnome/halfling/half-orc continumn. Wotc's "Races of . . ." further extends this range. Any number of D&D compatable d20 products (Races of Reknown etc.) go farther. Then, there are races that have appeared in the "100% Official" Dragon Magazine. Variant PC races are a 3X vogue.
That the PC happens to come from a full blown "setting," even one that is "vastly different," seems a distinction without a difference. Again, all of the above PC race sources provide detailed backgrounds, even as they fall short of being a "setting." "Different?" Look at the Illumian (Races of Destiny) background for "different."
The "setting" and "vastly different" factors, I believe, have less validity than the "PC" factor, which is well undercut by any number of PC race releases.
as for the drow from GH to FR thing.
taking a race from an older setting into a new one is no problem as it does not interfere with the continuity of the world. adding a new PC race especially one so alien as warforged to a world that has been established almost three decades is impossible without rewriting the setting.
Now, I am entirely lost. You can go from older to newer but not newer to older? Because in the first instance there is no interference with continuity but in the latter there is such interference? So, older settings have continuity that can be disrupted but newer settings do not have continuity that can be disrupted? I don't see why this "one way" rule should apply.
And to answer the MM3 debate. Eberron is the official WotC DnD setting and it is assumed that every book released that does not explicitly say otherwise is for use in eberron. WotC does not release Greyhawk material anymore outside of the core books ie; DMG PHB and MM. MM3 is not greyhawk material. QFT
Huh? When last I checked, there was no "default setting" anymore. GH was the initial 3X default but has been phased out except where it still appears in the PH and the breach, as in Heroes of Horror, for example. I have never seen a Wotc announcement that Eberron is the new default setting.
If I may, I sense you give yourself away with the comment "MM3 is not greyhawk material."
While one may legitimately argue that if a product does not have a GH or FR or Eberron or whatever logo on the cover, the product is not GH or FR or Eberron or whatever, one may also legitimately argue that the "logo dominant days" are long over. Races of Faerun is an FR product despite not sporting the FR logo. Races of Eberron is an Eberron product despite not sporting the Eberron logo. "Greyhawk material" is not defined by the GH logo any more and at least not since the rise of 3X.
Beyond this, GH would have to be a pretty inflexible setting not to be able to handle generic material in addition to "logo material." I believe GH is quite flexible. It may not be to everyone's taste but there is nothing inherently "wrong" IMO about placing warforged in GH; I think it is all a matter of how you would do it, which I think was the OP's question.
Understand. We know almost nothing about the vast majority of Oerth. The Flanaess is a tiny corner of the planet. Hence, my suggestion that warforged might be from other than the Flanaess and thus also rare. How would this necessitate a "rewrite" of the setting? I do not see your logic.
Except they can be healed by cure wounds spells. That seems a bit biological there.
I think you missed my point, there. I was saying that no one has been claiming that their sinew (clearly described in their writeup) was the result of bio-engineering. In fact, the write-ups are rather clear on the point. They are magical constructs with specific advantages over normal constructs (this sort of exception is hardly rare).
So perhaps they are composed of some bio-engineered substance?
There's no evidence of that in their writeup, so for purposes of thowing around labels like, "science fiction," I see no particular grounds. Remember that the question wasn't "could you come up with a scenario by which Warforged are actually the product of some advanced technology," but the assertion that Warforged are somehow inherently a science-fiction element thrust into D&D (an otherwise fantasy game).
In what way is highly complex "programming" different from "magical enchantments"?
Magical enchantments do not need to be logically complete. That is to say, you do not need to determine all of the details that make an "Identify" spell do its thing. You simply gather the approriate magical power in the appropriate way, and it "knows" what to do. Granted, there is a sort of "physics" to magic, and mages often spend their entire lives (and sometimes, afterlives) working out the rules of magic, but fundamentally magic is not something which needs to be "programmed" logically in order to function in the way that its manipulator desires. At least not the way it has always worked in D&D.
Are not constructs actually given orders, that is to say "programs" to follow when created?
You have a logical fallacy there. Giving orders is not programming. It's also unclear how you meant for that to tie into the discussion, since such orders would be given after the creation of the constructs in question.
Are not warforged simply capable of additional reasoning to carry out those orders?
Go ask Marvin Minsky how "simple" that little bit of additional reasoning is. There are serious scientists who remain unconvinced that the human brain is even possible, given what we currently understand of physics (i.e. that there must be some more complex mechanism which we do not yet understand, likely at the quantum level). While I don't agree with them, the fact that the debate exists demonstrates that reasoning is a hugely complex phenomenon. Do not brush it aside rhetorically.
So indeed they are "artifical intelligences", just like any self-aware robot.
No. They are magical sentients. While that makes them both artificial and intelligent, you are mis-using a well defined term by calling them "artifical intelligences", which implies that they were constructed logically, according to the rules of computer science. The key word, there, is SCIENCE. Coalescing magical energies into a mind without an understanding of how that mind works is not science. If it were, then a mage capable of making a Warforged would not require magic, and would only use it for convinience. I can write programs using nothing more than plumbing (in fact, I know a professor who got his PhD doing that). I challenge your average wizard to make a device (sans magic) which is able to manifest the logic embodied in even a first-level spell. They cannot because they do not understand that logic, they instead manipulate forces that do.
So it would seem warforged and golems are sci-fi in fantasy, or fantasy in sci-fi.
Steampunk in general is an attempt to blur the line, certainly, but in order to truly blur that line, you need to construct these beasts according to scientific princibles, albeit using primative tech. An early steampunk book, The Difference Engine, is a good introduction to what I'm talking about here. By employing magic (which, if we go back to Clarke's Law you will be reminded is indistinguishable from sufficiently advanced tech), you imply that there is an unknown involved, and it is that unknown which defines Clarke's Law (if it were known, it would not be sufficiently advanced to be indistinguishable from magic).
That means what while a computer sent to the world of Greyhawk via some world-portal would still be a technological device, created using computer science, a golem made up of several of these extra-worldly computers would be a magical construct, made without any understanding of the forces involved.
However it seems you had already decided how people would react to warforged and were just looking for approval.
WHAT?! Why on Oerth would I ask how Flanaess societies would react in order to "seek approval" for some unvoiced response to that very question?!
Certainly in the course of my postings here, I've made some suggestions, and while they've been shaped by the input of others, yes, these suggestions are my ideas. But, I came to this with no preconceptions, and have tried to work through this with others. Sadly, everyone seems too blinded by the "that's Eberron! You can't get it in my peanut butter!" mentallity.
Thank you to those above who shared your own techniques for integrating Warforged into your games. It's not exactly what I was looking for, but it's at least creative input, and I appreciate it.
Beyond this, GH would have to be a pretty inflexible setting not to be able to handle generic material in addition to "logo material." I believe GH is quite flexible. It may not be to everyone's taste but there is nothing inherently "wrong" IMO about placing warforged in GH; I think it is all a matter of how you would do it, which I think was the OP's question.
Understand. We know almost nothing about the vast majority of Oerth. The Flanaess is a tiny corner of the planet. Hence, my suggestion that warforged might be from other than the Flanaess and thus also rare. How would this necessitate a "rewrite" of the setting? I do not see your logic.
It would be quite reasonable, but the one thing I'm tied to is the starting point. It's already written up, and some of it has been played (the players are about to take the next step and actually run into the Warforged). The Warforged will hit the ground in a portion of the northern Pomarj peninsula about 40 miles east of Highport in a place that I call "Carpenter's Cove" (a location that I inserted). They will be Eberron natives, but most of them will never see their homeland again, and in time will come to think of Oerth as their home (be it good or ill).
From THAT point, I have nothing more. That's the question on the table. I have some ideas, but I welcome any other input. Be as creative as you like. Go the "they're hunted like dogs" route. Go the "they're accepted warmly" route. Go for anything in between. Brainstorm away. All I can offer in return is the promise that I'll take your ideas into consideration for introduction to my players.
So, the "PC" factor makes all the difference?
Do you see warforged as a PC race in any GH boxed set of book?
While one may legitimately argue that if a product does not have a GH or FR or Eberron or whatever logo on the cover, the product is not GH or FR or Eberron or whatever, one may also legitimately argue that the "logo dominant days" are long over.
ok
Races of Faerun is an FR product despite not sporting the FR logo.
Perhaps the fact that it is titled "Races of Faerun" was enough of a hint to what it was about without the logo?
Races of Eberron is an Eberron product despite not sporting the Eberron logo.
As above
"Greyhawk material" is not defined by the GH logo any more and at least not since the rise of 3X.
Pretty sure Greyhawk was buried shortly after the rise of 3.x so this entire argument is meaningless. Are warforged in the LGC or in the hardbound greyhawk adventures? no. that is because they are not apart of greyhawk. Now if you guys want to add them to your personal campaigns who is to stop you? not me, not anyone. We have canon and that is what I use. you can do what you want.
Beyond this, GH would have to be a pretty inflexible setting not to be able to handle generic material in addition to "logo material." I believe GH is quite flexible. It may not be to everyone's taste but there is nothing inherently "wrong" IMO about placing warforged in GH; I think it is all a matter of how you would do it, which I think was the OP's question.
Regardless of warforged being in MM3 warforged are not a part of generic D&D. they are a part of the eberron setting first and fore most, the fact that WotC wanted to make some money by selling a third MM full of monster reprints does not magically make warforged a generic race that can be found in any of the pre-existing settings.
Understand. We know almost nothing about the vast majority of Oerth. The Flanaess is a tiny corner of the planet. Hence, my suggestion that warforged might be from other than the Flanaess and thus also rare. How would this necessitate a "rewrite" of the setting? I do not see your logic.
It is your logic that is impaired. If warforged existed on Oerth then some mention of them would seem likely given the amount of in game history as well as the nearly thirty years of the settings existance.
There's no evidence of that in their writeup, so for purposes of thowing around labels like, "science fiction," I see no particular grounds. Remember that the question wasn't "could you come up with a scenario by which Warforged are actually the product of some advanced technology," but the assertion that Warforged are somehow inherently a science-fiction element thrust into D&D (an otherwise fantasy game).
Well gee, there's no evidence that they aren't.
Weren't you using that as justification for using them while stripping out their background from the MM3?
You have a logical fallacy there. Giving orders is not programming. It's also unclear how you meant for that to tie into the discussion, since such orders would be given after the creation of the constructs in question.
It might be an interpretational error, but there is no logical fallacy involved.
WHAT?! Why on Oerth would I ask how Flanaess societies would react in order to "seek approval" for some unvoiced response to that very question?!
Because every time someone says they don't like the idea, you go out out of your way to jump all over them.
More, whenever an idea is suggested that you don't like, like what was said about the warforged just being a bunch of terminators, which I've shown is in fact quite reasonable, you also do your best to slam it down.
Certainly in the course of my postings here, I've made some suggestions, and while they've been shaped by the input of others, yes, these suggestions are my ideas. But, I came to this with no preconceptions, and have tried to work through this with others. Sadly, everyone seems too blinded by the "that's Eberron! You can't get it in my peanut butter!" mentallity.
I could say the same about your response to me:
"You are too blinded by a "That's science-fiction! You can't get it in my fantasy!" mentality."
If you want ideas, you should be open to any, and not just reject them out of hand like that.
As it happens, I've been looking at the various warforged feats and considering what effect they'd have in a game. (Which means in GH, since that's the setting I use.) But since you've already got your answers, whatever I could say won't really matter, as you've already decided how you intend to use them, and don't want to consider any alternatives. I guess I'll have to go start my own thread for them then.
A veteran of the War, he had fought with the village militia helping defend against several raids from Iuz's minions. Orcs, goblins, and ogres mostly, he did witness a number of magical monsters as well. This stranger doesn't resemble anything he actually saw in the War. However, rumors abound telling of the strange creatures Iuz has created. Everyone is rather jumpy, and Lou is no exception.
Lou then started thinking of all the strange folks he saw allied with Furyondy. As the owner of an Inn practically on the Razing Line (sp?), he had plenty of colorful patrons during the War and throughout the following crusade. He remembered a trio of centaurs he stabled, a wizard with a charmed umber hulk, a halfling who never turned visible, a wizard who could turn himself into a tree, and a fighter who never removed his magically-glowing full plate armor. All these fought for Furyondy in the War, and the stranger is no odder than they were.
Lou began thinking of stories he heard from the bard that have come through his inn. Songs tell of a silver dragon battling on the side of good, treants of the forests ambushing orc patrols, people brought back from the dead, undead terrorizing the Oerth, flying manticores that can fire deadly spikes from 500 feet away, flying eye-sacks that can curse you ten separate times, a city of wizards where magic controls everything, wizards can change their shape, size, appearance, fly, breath water, teleport, throw balls of fire, dominate your mind, go invisible, make you blind, fall asleep, confused, afraid, see things that aren't their, open a portal to the Abyss, kill with a word, go incorporeal, and basically do anything Lou could ever imagine. This stranger could be anything.
The thing looked strong. Plate armor covers its body, his dagger would likely never pierce it. Glancing back into the main room, he sees only Mac sipping at his mead. No backup.
Finally looking the stranger in the eyes, Lou spoke, "Rooms are a silv . . umm . . two gold a night." The stranger looked at Lou for a moment, then tossed over two well-worn coins. Lou directed him to the back room. Fortunately, the stranger did not leave his room the whole night. Nervously, Lou stayed up all night pacing the main hall. He dawned his old suit of leather and took a whetstone to his old spear. His daughter was excited about the affair, staying with him the whole night. She assured her father that she could pierce a bolt of light into him if necessary. The both fell asleep a couple hours before morning. When they awoke, the stranger had already left.
As an aside, I rather like the idea of coal-fired forges of North Province used by the clergy of Hextor to produce all manner of war-like autonomotons. Some experiments went awry and produced the sentient warforged. Some were used in the War to great effect. However, the ensuing civil war that still rages across North Province destroyed the forges. Some warforged did escape into the outer world. Some say the forges are being started anew.
I liked the story even if I strongly am opposed to porting eberron into greyhawk.
There's plenty other things to get annoyed about - like why there's not a GH hardcover as pretty as Five Nations or the other Ebberon books?
If warforged existed on Oerth then some mention of them would seem likely given the amount of in game history as well as the nearly thirty years of the settings existance.
Please identify by name any nation-state located on the southern continent south of Oerik as reflected on the Dragon Annual Map of Oerth. In "canon," which you use, of course.
Of course, you cannot because canon is silent on such issues. There is then a huge area of Oerth that could hold warforged or anything else. (If you do not find the annual map "canon," there are even larger "unknown" areas off the Darlene map that could hold pretty much anything.)
Canon does not speak to all possibilities. It only speaks to those possibilities that have been defined to date. Even then, canon does not describe everything and in detail. Even in the Flanaess, and particularly beneath the Flanaess, where Oerth's "underdark" has been only regionally described here and there.
Hence, my second suggestion to the OP. If warforged are not to be from beyond the confines of the Flanaess, I suggest "Tomb of the Warforged" ala Tomb of the Cybermen - they are from some long past era. Perhaps the wizard using them, discovered them and has either tricked them or enslaved them to function as his "army." (Reaction to warforged would, I'd still think, be relatively mild. They are not aboleths or beholders etc.)
PS - MM3 _is_ generic D&D. That includes warforged, who are presented in their cutdown or edited version for general use.
(Reaction to warforged would, I'd still think, be relatively mild. They are not aboleths or beholders etc.)
PS - MM3 _is_ generic D&D. That includes warforged, who are presented in their cutdown or edited version for general use.
Nope, sorry. I quoted that cutdown version already, and it is clear that people don't like warforged at all.
If you want to use the generic warforged then they must be strongly ostracized.
Canon does not speak to all possibilities. It only speaks to those possibilities that have been defined to date.
Of course, you're right, but it's a moot point. For one, I'm not saying that they existed before CY 595 on Oerth. For another, it's pretty much a done deal for me now, and I only need to finish plotting out the consenquences. The players could be wiped out in Mechanus, but even then the Warforged would head to Oerth as invaders rather than as refugees. Either way, they'll be there, so arguing about how "canon" it is for them to be there is a bit like arguing that bumblebees can't fly.
PS: I was shocked to find that my major d20 systems geeks didn't know what these things were (I even showed the party the picture from MM3), so it was particularly satisfying to have introduced something that struck the party as totally alien, giving even more flavor to their being in Mechanus.
Addressing AJS's original post, I think that an insufficient number of warforged will likely make it out of the Pomarj to have significant ramifications on the Flanaess.
As to the few who escape the Pomarj, I agree with Samwise who quoted the MM III description of the Warforged. Most regular beings who see them will feel scared and seek protection. Most beings with martial skill will likely try to drive the Warforged off, and someone will die.
AJS suggested that a few hundred Warforged might survive the initial invasion into the Pomarj (from Mechanus). While some survivors might make it into the Wild Coast (most likely) or the Principality of Ulek (less likely), I suspect that they'd either do so in very small numbers or in somewhat larger groups that will tend to attract violent attentions that will likely fragment them into smaller groups.
My opinion is based on the premise that the humanoids of the Pomarj and their evil human allies will likely find the Warforged to pose significant military threats, especially given that the scenario described has them invade the Pomarj. The leaders of Highport, Blue and Stoneheim; the humanoid chieftains; and the Nine, a.k.a., the Slave Lords, will all likely attempt to hunt down and destroy the Warforged who survive the original invasion--with more or less organization contingent on who makes the order.
Some Slave Lords or Scarlet Brotherhood agents may also try to dominate the few survivors. Warforged who ally with the former will likely be able to live as martial servants. Unfortunate Warforged who ally with a Scarlet Brotherhood agent will likely be taken to Shar, where wizards and others will probably destroy them in attempts to replicate them.
The few Warforged who make it into the Wild Coast will therefore be very rare, if not unique. Many will likely die obscure deaths. A handful might live famously as anti/heroes.
Something similar is likely to happen in the Principality of Ulek--unless the Warforged find a staunch and influential ally.
With a strong ally, Warforged might gain some social standing in the Principality, but it all depends on Prince Corond...
Were a player to play a warforged and accomplish heroic deeds fighting against evil, bards will spread the story of the iron man championing for good. It is possible that this will be the only reference to warforged that most throughout the Flanneass will hear. Thus, the actions of a PC could influence the attitudes of all versus his race. Warforged could become seen as noble warriors.
unrealistic
Bards sing about the noble deeds of humans all the time but people still generally mistrust strangers. now imagine if the stranger was not even human or demihuman.
No bard would sing of his deeds? A mass conspiracy among all bardic colleges exists to only sing of humans? No songs of heroic kenku, sphinxes, dryads, couatl, centaurs, lizard men, lammasu, githzerai, tritons, mermen, or the iron golem that long outlived its creator but still follows its last instructions of defending the village from orcs?
No worries. Another PC as a bard can sing of anything he wants.
Odd. A warforges slays the dragon/lays low the necromancer/breaks up the slave smuggling ring/crusades against Iuz/kills a hierarch/frees Prince Thrommel/pushes back the giants/stops the Doomgrinder/liberates the Shield Lands/conquers Maure Castle/or any number of other heroic deeds.
No bard would sing of his deeds? A mass conspiracy among all bardic colleges exists to only sing of humans? No songs of heroic kenku, sphinxes, dryads, couatl, centaurs, lizard men, lammasu, githzerai, tritons, mermen, or the iron golem that long outlived its creator but still follows its last instructions of defending the village from orcs?
No worries. Another PC as a bard can sing of anything he wants.
Reading comprehension is your friend.
what was said is just because a warforged did these things and bards sang about it that would not change the average persons outlook towards warforged in general any more than it would about humans in general.
people are not generally trusting and open to humans the dont know let alone a 7' tall walking metal man regardless of what the bards may sing.
reread what I posted.
Sure it might hope to get named and mentioned along with its wielder, but the only one to get renown would be the person making it or using it, not the magic item itself.
It is the Song of Roland, not the Song of Durendal.
Why would any bard waste a song on the "glory" of a magic item?
Sure it might hope to get named and mentioned along with its wielder, but the only one to get renown would be the person making it or using it, not the magic item itself.
It is the Song of Roland, not the Song of Durendal.
First off, keep in mind that the vast majority of bards aren't Bards in the game mechanics sense, they're just performers. This means that their understanding of arcane magic is slim to none. If a metal man is out championing the cause of good, I don't see bards getting hung up on the "well, the construct template implies a lack of free will, so this must just be a tool." I'd think they'd be just as ready to accept the metal men at face value as they are with any number of other strange creatures that they sing tales of.
As for folks not trusting them anyway... I'm not sure I agree. How would people react to an angel or other celestial? They've certainly never seen one before, but my guess is that, based on tales they've been told, they'll treat them as servants of good. Now that's a hyperbolic example, but it makes the point. People distrust humans because they have first-hand knowledge of how humans behave. If all you heard of Warforged was the good (and I'm not sure that's how it would play out), then I think the average person would have a somewhat positive disposition upon first meeting them.
It's a nice idea, but it will probably be a slightly muddier situation, since not all of the Warforged will be good, and even the neutral ones will see the value of finding powerful allies in the Pomarj, where they start off. That almost certainly means dealing with some unsavory types.
First off, keep in mind that the vast majority of bards aren't Bards in the game mechanics sense, they're just performers. This means that their understanding of arcane magic is slim to none. If a metal man is out championing the cause of good, I don't see bards getting hung up on the "well, the construct template implies a lack of free will, so this must just be a tool." I'd think they'd be just as ready to accept the metal men at face value as they are with any number of other strange creatures that they sing tales of.[/QUOTE}
First off, this is utterly irrelevant. A metal man is obviously not anything human, and if it is moving around it has obviously been animated by magic.
So it is an extreme stretch to try and assert they are a pack of ignorant rubes who don't have a clue as to what is happening just because they don't have levels in the bard class instead of the expert class.As for folks not trusting them anyway... I'm not sure I agree. How would people react to an angel or other celestial? They've certainly never seen one before, but my guess is that, based on tales they've been told, they'll treat them as servants of good. Now that's a hyperbolic example, but it makes the point. People distrust humans because they have first-hand knowledge of how humans behave. If all you heard of Warforged was the good (and I'm not sure that's how it would play out), then I think the average person would have a somewhat positive disposition upon first meeting them.
No, it doesn't make the point. Another human still looks human. A warforged does not.It's a nice idea, but it will probably be a slightly muddier situation, since not all of the Warforged will be good, and even the neutral ones will see the value of finding powerful allies in the Pomarj, where they start off. That almost certainly means dealing with some unsavory types.
If you just want to force acceptance then it is fine. If you want to introduce them in a reasonable fashion, it falls way short.
If you just want to force acceptance then it is fine. If you want to introduce them in a reasonable fashion, it falls way short.
Ah... did you read what you quoted from me? Acceptance was about as far from what I was suggesting as possible. This does seem to be a recurring theme here. I say something, and someone jumps down my throat for having defended something or other that I have no interest in defending.
*shrug*
As a side note, I apologize for misreading your post, Cennedi. Reading comprehension is the lowest of my standardized tested abilities.
Of perhaps more importance than what the common man will think of warforged is what the movers and shakers think. If Belvor can harness a couple warforged to use in his crusade, I am thinking he would like to have them. If Mordenkainen had a few on retainer, he would use them. And Turrosh Mak (sp?) would be more than happy to send a warforged legion to plunder the Welkwood.
The problem is that there aren't that many, and even if tortured, the Warforged simply don't know HOW to get back to Eberron, so there's no hope of getting more. You're right that lots of powers will be interested in getting access to these newcomers... perhaps that could be a theme in the campaign. If a player chooses to run a Warforged, they could have to deal with various "requests" (sometimes of a distinctly non-verbal nature) from those in power. If no one chooses to play a Warforged, then perhaps a small group could approach the party, looking for some help, as they're being hunted by agents of one of the evil countries.
I don't think Mordenkainen would be all that shocked, though he might contact them to see if they know of the planar magics used to reach them. He's seen sentient constructs before, I'm sure (there used to be many of them on Oerth, according to The Clockwork Fortress, and at least one of those are still alive).
Mak is probably the best case scenario for the Warforged in the Pomarj, though. If they ally with any of the even more unsavory powers in the Pomarj, they could end up developing a truly sinester reputation throughout the Flanaess.
Thanks for the input!
I seem to remember reading that eberron was not actually in the prime plane that holds Oerth. warforged in oerth would have to cross not one plane to another but from a entirely separate cosmology to another. IIRC eberron does not exist within the great wheel.
Well, that's always a touchy subject that goes right to the heart of some of the longest-running debates in the history of the cosmology: what are the planes, and did the outer planes create the material or visa versa?
Certainly Eberron doesn't share the same planar structure with Greyhawk, but how important that is depends a lot on how you view the planes and the answer to the above question. I tend to view the planes as a pool of raw magical power, viewed through the lens of the prime material, and quite probably through the lens of a specific LOCATION in the prime material (from two galaxies over, the outer planes are not likely to be seen as a place full of humanoid deities). Another material plane might well see something quite different, but that doesn't mean that there is no means for the one to touch the other... it's just quite a lot harder than for material planes which share a planar outlook.
Either way it has nothing to do with my game, really, since the players will never find out how this particular Wizard managed to get ahold of the Warforged in the first place (though it does make a Warforged PC's background a bit more interesting, should anyone run one).
As for the warforged, they're out there. I've decided that only a couple of handfulls of them came through before the gate was destroyed. They want to find a way back to Eberron, of course, but ultimately most or all will have to settle into the Flanaess. No one has taken me up on playing one yet, but they might change their mind when we go back to the game.
For now, we've put that storyline on hold, and are starting up a Shackled City Adventure Path campaign, where the characters will start at 6th level, jumping into chapter 4 as travelling adventurers. Should be fun! No one asked me if they could play warforged, so I didn't touch on that particular topic... wasn't sure if it made sense to, given that I had not figured out if SCAP happens before, during, or after my other campaign's timeline.