The general plot, which involves killing Tiamat and running through the Abyss like each layer was a room in a dungeon, I'm not fond of. I notice Dead Gods seems to assume this adventure never happened, as it says Orcus was killed "centuries ago." Fans usually assume it did happen, and Orcus losing his wand here directly led to him being weak enough for Kiaransalee to kill him.
I had Rowan Darkwood lead a party through this adventure, along with pretty much all other 1st edition adventures, in this story. He didn't kill Tiamat.
This, I think, seems like a ridicule of 1st edition gaming, where Orcus seemed to have his claws everywhere. I think I see more why 1st edition gamers don`t like Planescape much.
Don`t look at me, I never played 1e (just D&D(Mystara) and 2e before 3e)
This, I think, seems like a ridicule of 1st edition gaming
"Ridicule" seems extremely unlikely, given Monte Cook's own frequent celebration of 1st edition adventures and that style of play . Dead Gods itself contains numerous homages to H4 (a balor from H4 appears in Dead Gods, and Monte's A Paladin in Hell is built entirely around 1st edition references (the title and cover of the adventure are based on an illustration from the original Player's Handbook, an NPC encountered there - Emirikol the Chaotic - comes from another illustration from the 1e PH, and in a way the whole adventure is mostly an excuse to bring back the 1st edition archdevils and to use the 1st edition names for the various fiends as much as possible). Monte Cook, who grew up on 1e, seems far too much a 1st edition fanboy to ridicule anyone for liking the same things.
However, it is true that there is assumed to be a great gulf of time between the original Monster Manuals and Planescape, particularly in the case of the Lords of the Nine; the "reckoning" that changed the order of the Hells from their 1st edition to their 2nd edition state happened uncounted millennia ago, at the time of the founding of the Dark Eight.
In the case of Orcus' death, there was a need to synchronize Dead Gods with the history of Return to the Tomb of Horrors, as the two are intimately connected. In addition, part of the theme of the adventure was that everyone but immortal beings like Primus had mostly forgotten Orcus at this point. Finally, Kiaransalee seemed fairly well settled in to her desmesne.
The precise timeline is somewhat vague. Orcus died after the Ghoresh Incident but before the construction of the Ships of Chaos began. Bel wrested Avernus from Zariel "thousands of years ago," and the Reckoning took place while Zariel was still Avernus' lord. The Reckoning was contemporary with the creation of the Dark Eight, which is said to have happened "long ago" and "ages ago." The Dark Eight were already a power in Baator during the Rebellion of the Inferiors, which happened before the Ghoresh Incident - it's possible the Rebellion of the Inferiors and the Reckoning are two parts of the same event. A Paladin in Hell says Geryon has been exiled for " many, many, many years."
I think Dead Gods could conceivably be made to work even if you assume Orcus died more recently, say during the Time of Troubles in Toril.
This, I think, seems like a ridicule of 1st edition gaming, where Orcus seemed to have his claws everywhere. I think I see more why 1st edition gamers don`t like Planescape much.
The ridicule that 1st ed gets, it tends to garner for itself, with H4 being perhaps a prime example of why some people tend to frown on the 1e treatment of planar material.
I never played 1e or 2e, so my view of it all is a bit unbiased by any nostalgia, and though I'm more familiar with 2e material than 1e, I greatly prefer the 2e stuff for the most part.
..H4 being perhaps a prime example of why some people tend to frown on the 1e treatment of planar material.
Why is this?
"Ridicule" seems extremely unlikely, given Monte Cook's own frequent celebration of 1st edition adventures and that style of play . Dead Gods itself contains numerous homages to H4 (a balor from H4 appears in Dead Gods, and Monte's A Paladin in Hell is built entirely around 1st edition references (the title and cover of the adventure are based on an illustration from the original Player's Handbook, an NPC encountered there - Emirikol the Chaotic - comes from another illustration from the 1e PH, and in a way the whole adventure is mostly an excuse to bring back the 1st edition archdevils and to use the 1st edition names for the various fiends as much as possible). Monte Cook, who grew up on 1e, seems far too much a 1st edition fanboy to ridicule anyone for liking the same things.
However, it is true that there is assumed to be a great gulf of time between the original Monster Manuals and Planescape, particularly in the case of the Lords of the Nine; the "reckoning" that changed the order of the Hells from their 1st edition to their 2nd edition state happened uncounted millennia ago, at the time of the founding of the Dark Eight.
In the case of Orcus' death, there was a need to synchronize Dead Gods with the history of Return to the Tomb of Horrors, as the two are intimately connected. In addition, part of the theme of the adventure was that everyone but immortal beings like Primus had mostly forgotten Orcus at this point. Finally, Kiaransalee seemed fairly well settled in to her desmesne.
The precise timeline is somewhat vague. Orcus died after the Ghoresh Incident but before the construction of the Ships of Chaos began. Bel wrested Avernus from Zariel "thousands of years ago," and the Reckoning took place while Zariel was still Avernus' lord. The Reckoning was contemporary with the creation of the Dark Eight, which is said to have happened "long ago" and "ages ago." The Dark Eight were already a power in Baator during the Rebellion of the Inferiors, which happened before the Ghoresh Incident - it's possible the Rebellion of the Inferiors and the Reckoning are two parts of the same event. A Paladin in Hell says Geryon has been exiled for " many, many, many years."
I think Dead Gods could conceivably be made to work even if you assume Orcus died more recently, say during the Time of Troubles in Toril.
Thanks for this walkthrough. I didn`t know much of this (didn`t play Dead Gods much, only Paladin in hell, H4 and Return to the Tomb of Horrors(the latter my players used a myriad of gaming sessions to complete, even more than a year in real time))