Question about previously gained levels - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Question about previously gained levels

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Dec 10, 2005 5:41:14 This is more of a general 3.5 question I guess, but I only fequent this board ever, so here goes: Is there anyway, any established way, to change levels previously taken in a class, after the fact? I mean say Jo is a wizard 5/barbarian 2. Is there some way, maybe by using a wish or miracle or epic spell, for Jo to trade in those 2 barbarian levels for wizard or anything else he wants? or simply to remove those levels? has it ever been established somewhere officially that this is possible? i'm not quite clear how level drains work in 3.5, but is there still the chance of getting level drained by undead and choosing which levels are stripped?

that's pretty much it. thanks

nic
#2
Kamelion
Dec 10, 2005 7:19:14
This is more of a general 3.5 question I guess, but I only fequent this board ever, so here goes: Is there anyway, any established way, to change levels previously taken in a class, after the fact? I mean say Jo is a wizard 5/barbarian 2. Is there some way, maybe by using a wish or miracle or epic spell, for Jo to trade in those 2 barbarian levels for wizard or anything else he wants? or simply to remove those levels? has it ever been established somewhere officially that this is possible? i'm not quite clear how level drains work in 3.5, but is there still the chance of getting level drained by undead and choosing which levels are stripped?

that's pretty much it. thanks

nic

Just off the top of my head, there is no immediate or easy way to trade in levels that you have already gained for levels in a different class. A DM might agree to allowing this, as there is no overwhelming balance reason not to, but it does fly somewhat in the face of in-game logic. I'd say that wish, miracle or some kind of epic spell should be able to do this, however, but that's just my personal feeling on how those spells could be used creatively.

As for level drains, generally you first suffer what is called a "negative level" when you are hit by an energy drain attack. A negative level inflicts a –1 on all skill checks and ability checks, a –1 on attack rolls and saving throws, –5 hit points and a –1 to your effective level (whenever your level is used in a die roll or calculation, you reduce it by one for each negative level that you have). Negative levels remain for 24 hours or until removed with a spell, such as restoration. After 24 hours, you must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 attacker’s HD + attacker’s Cha modifier). (The DC is provided in the attacker’s description.) If the saving throw succeeds, the negative level goes away with no harm to you. You make a separate saving throw for each negative level you have gained. If the save fails, the negative level goes away, but your actual level is also reduced by one. So, only after failing the save to remove a negative level do you actually lose a level.

A character who loses a level instantly loses one Hit Die. The character’s base attack bonus, base saving throw bonuses, and special class abilities are now reduced to the new, lower level. Likewise, the character loses any ability score gain, skill ranks, and any feat associated with the level (if applicable). If the exact ability score or skill ranks increased from a level now lost is unknown (or the player has forgotten), lose 1 point from the highest ability score or ranks from the highest-ranked skills. If a familiar or companion creature has abilities tied to a character who has lost a level, the creature’s abilities are adjusted to fit the character’s new level. The victim’s experience point total is immediately set to the midpoint of the previous level.

In the case of a lost level, you could then earn experience as normal and take a level in a different class the next time that you level-up.
#3
kalindren
Dec 10, 2005 7:51:36 The only way I know of to trade in class levels is via selected Prestige Classes - the Blackguard class for example allows you to trade in Paladin Levels for Blackguard levels. In the Star Wars RPG you can trade levels in Jedi Classes for levels in the Sith Prestige Classes.

You're probably stuck with Wish Spells, Miracles and Epic Spells - although all of those would be subject to adjudication by your campaign DM
#4
Sysane
Dec 10, 2005 11:31:53 Psychic Reformation allows you reallocate skill points and choose different feats or powers. It doesn't allow a character to reselect levels but you could house rule that it does with a higher augmentation cost (i.e. more power points and more XP).

Psychic Reformation
Telepathy [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Psion/wilder 4
Display: Auditory, mental, and visual
Manifesting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Power Resistance: No
Power Points: 7, XP; see text
When this power is manifested, the subject can choose to spend its most recently gained skill points differently (picking new skills and abandoning old ones if it chooses) and to choose a different feat from the one it selected when advancing from its previous level to its current level.
The subject can also choose to forget powers it acquired when advancing to its current level, replacing them with new ones.
The subject can undo decisions of these sorts that were made at lower levels, if both the subject and the manifester agree to pay the necessary XP before this power is manifested (see below). The subject must abide by the standard rules for selecting skills and feats, and so it cannot take feats for which it doesn’t qualify or take crossclass skills as class skills.
XP Cost: This power costs 50 XP to manifest to reformat choices made when the character reached her current level. For each additional previous level into which the revision reaches, the power costs an additional 50 XP. The manifester and subject split all XP costs evenly.

#5
Pennarin
Dec 10, 2005 13:33:46 Basically, you're screwed.
If your wizard 5/barbarian 2 really wants or needs to be a wizard 7, then he'll have to wait untill he gains two levels. Still, the character will have the benefits of higher saves and attack bonuses (from his barbarian levels).

Psychic reformation is your #1 weapon vs screwups, but only if you actually made the right class choices to begin with. To change the class you've chosen in the past you'll need more firepower than a 4th-level power...
#6
darksoulman
Dec 10, 2005 16:58:47 I'd just like to add that if you're dealing with a new player, you might consider just allowing the change - the D&D rules can be a bit overwhelming at first, especially if the rest of the group are devouted min/maxers ;)
#7
jon_oracle_of_athas
Dec 10, 2005 17:35:39 I believe there is a ritual in Savage Species that allows you to change class levels. Don't take me up on that 100% though.
#8
zombiegleemax
Dec 11, 2005 11:22:12
I believe there is a ritual in Savage Species that allows you to change class levels. Don't take me up on that 100% though.

Tehy are called ritals of Unlerning and vitality, as i understand it our human wiz 5 brb 2 can change, using the first, trading levels for ecl, in an aasimar wiz 5 brb 1 or or in a ecl +2 wiz 5... assuming he begun the ritual by being a level 5 wiz...
none of them allows to trade class levels for class levels, but the change they make is more visceral and i see no problem in creating a ritual ad Hoc
#9
Zardnaar
Dec 11, 2005 11:32:15 I would probably allow a wish or miracle to change 1 level. Want to change more requires multiple spells. A limited wish I will allow to change a feat.
#10
zombiegleemax
Dec 12, 2005 1:55:40 Mostly I wanted to know to make sure there was a legit way to do something like this. Psychic reformation plus the general consensus on wishes and miracles seem to be the way to go. I really just wanted a way to be able to stat our my own version of tithian post-kalak-killing, without having to totally nerf him. thanks for all the imput guys

nic
#11
zombiegleemax
Dec 12, 2005 2:12:48 Under 2° edition rules i belive that templars could automatically drop temp. levels for figther ones if they remained without their S.K

Just create an ad Hoc pestige class.... Im doing something like that for my variants in UR and Tithian had 2 ex-champions to teach him
#12
zombiegleemax
Dec 12, 2005 3:27:11 in 2e, templars had the option of just dropping all levels and starting over from scratch. didn't have to do it as fighters. most of them either became defilers or psions. far as i remember anyway.

as for me: tithian doesn't become king. agis does. tithian remains high templar/prime minister, but with help from the heads yoinks enough artifacts from the treasury or whatever to accomplish enough level dropping to do what i want him to.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Dec 10, 2005 5:41:14	This is more of a general 3.5 question I guess, but I only fequent this board ever, so here goes: Is there anyway, any established way, to change levels previously taken in a class, after the fact? I mean say Jo is a wizard 5/barbarian 2. Is there some way, maybe by using a wish or miracle or epic spell, for Jo to trade in those 2 barbarian levels for wizard or anything else he wants? or simply to remove those levels? has it ever been established somewhere officially that this is possible? i'm not quite clear how level drains work in 3.5, but is there still the chance of getting level drained by undead and choosing which levels are stripped? that's pretty much it. thanks nic
#2 Kamelion Dec 10, 2005 7:19:14	This is more of a general 3.5 question I guess, but I only fequent this board ever, so here goes: Is there anyway, any established way, to change levels previously taken in a class, after the fact? I mean say Jo is a wizard 5/barbarian 2. Is there some way, maybe by using a wish or miracle or epic spell, for Jo to trade in those 2 barbarian levels for wizard or anything else he wants? or simply to remove those levels? has it ever been established somewhere officially that this is possible? i'm not quite clear how level drains work in 3.5, but is there still the chance of getting level drained by undead and choosing which levels are stripped? that's pretty much it. thanks nic Just off the top of my head, there is no immediate or easy way to trade in levels that you have already gained for levels in a different class. A DM might agree to allowing this, as there is no overwhelming balance reason not to, but it does fly somewhat in the face of in-game logic. I'd say that wish, miracle or some kind of epic spell should be able to do this, however, but that's just my personal feeling on how those spells could be used creatively. As for level drains, generally you first suffer what is called a "negative level" when you are hit by an energy drain attack. A negative level inflicts a –1 on all skill checks and ability checks, a –1 on attack rolls and saving throws, –5 hit points and a –1 to your effective level (whenever your level is used in a die roll or calculation, you reduce it by one for each negative level that you have). Negative levels remain for 24 hours or until removed with a spell, such as restoration. After 24 hours, you must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 attacker’s HD + attacker’s Cha modifier). (The DC is provided in the attacker’s description.) If the saving throw succeeds, the negative level goes away with no harm to you. You make a separate saving throw for each negative level you have gained. If the save fails, the negative level goes away, but your actual level is also reduced by one. So, only after failing the save to remove a negative level do you actually lose a level. A character who loses a level instantly loses one Hit Die. The character’s base attack bonus, base saving throw bonuses, and special class abilities are now reduced to the new, lower level. Likewise, the character loses any ability score gain, skill ranks, and any feat associated with the level (if applicable). If the exact ability score or skill ranks increased from a level now lost is unknown (or the player has forgotten), lose 1 point from the highest ability score or ranks from the highest-ranked skills. If a familiar or companion creature has abilities tied to a character who has lost a level, the creature’s abilities are adjusted to fit the character’s new level. The victim’s experience point total is immediately set to the midpoint of the previous level. In the case of a lost level, you could then earn experience as normal and take a level in a different class the next time that you level-up.
#3 kalindren Dec 10, 2005 7:51:36	The only way I know of to trade in class levels is via selected Prestige Classes - the Blackguard class for example allows you to trade in Paladin Levels for Blackguard levels. In the Star Wars RPG you can trade levels in Jedi Classes for levels in the Sith Prestige Classes. You're probably stuck with Wish Spells, Miracles and Epic Spells - although all of those would be subject to adjudication by your campaign DM
#4 Sysane Dec 10, 2005 11:31:53	Psychic Reformation allows you reallocate skill points and choose different feats or powers. It doesn't allow a character to reselect levels but you could house rule that it does with a higher augmentation cost (i.e. more power points and more XP). Psychic Reformation Telepathy [Mind-Affecting] Level: Psion/wilder 4 Display: Auditory, mental, and visual Manifesting Time: 10 minutes Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One creature Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: No Power Points: 7, XP; see text When this power is manifested, the subject can choose to spend its most recently gained skill points differently (picking new skills and abandoning old ones if it chooses) and to choose a different feat from the one it selected when advancing from its previous level to its current level. The subject can also choose to forget powers it acquired when advancing to its current level, replacing them with new ones. The subject can undo decisions of these sorts that were made at lower levels, if both the subject and the manifester agree to pay the necessary XP before this power is manifested (see below). The subject must abide by the standard rules for selecting skills and feats, and so it cannot take feats for which it doesn’t qualify or take crossclass skills as class skills. XP Cost: This power costs 50 XP to manifest to reformat choices made when the character reached her current level. For each additional previous level into which the revision reaches, the power costs an additional 50 XP. The manifester and subject split all XP costs evenly.
#5 Pennarin Dec 10, 2005 13:33:46	Basically, you're screwed. If your wizard 5/barbarian 2 really wants or needs to be a wizard 7, then he'll have to wait untill he gains two levels. Still, the character will have the benefits of higher saves and attack bonuses (from his barbarian levels). Psychic reformation is your #1 weapon vs screwups, but only if you actually made the right class choices to begin with. To change the class you've chosen in the past you'll need more firepower than a 4th-level power...
#6 darksoulman Dec 10, 2005 16:58:47	I'd just like to add that if you're dealing with a new player, you might consider just allowing the change - the D&D rules can be a bit overwhelming at first, especially if the rest of the group are devouted min/maxers ;)
#7 jon_oracle_of_athas Dec 10, 2005 17:35:39	I believe there is a ritual in Savage Species that allows you to change class levels. Don't take me up on that 100% though.
#8 zombiegleemax Dec 11, 2005 11:22:12	I believe there is a ritual in Savage Species that allows you to change class levels. Don't take me up on that 100% though. Tehy are called ritals of Unlerning and vitality, as i understand it our human wiz 5 brb 2 can change, using the first, trading levels for ecl, in an aasimar wiz 5 brb 1 or or in a ecl +2 wiz 5... assuming he begun the ritual by being a level 5 wiz... none of them allows to trade class levels for class levels, but the change they make is more visceral and i see no problem in creating a ritual ad Hoc
#9 Zardnaar Dec 11, 2005 11:32:15	I would probably allow a wish or miracle to change 1 level. Want to change more requires multiple spells. A limited wish I will allow to change a feat.
#10 zombiegleemax Dec 12, 2005 1:55:40	Mostly I wanted to know to make sure there was a legit way to do something like this. Psychic reformation plus the general consensus on wishes and miracles seem to be the way to go. I really just wanted a way to be able to stat our my own version of tithian post-kalak-killing, without having to totally nerf him. thanks for all the imput guys nic
#11 zombiegleemax Dec 12, 2005 2:12:48	Under 2° edition rules i belive that templars could automatically drop temp. levels for figther ones if they remained without their S.K Just create an ad Hoc pestige class.... Im doing something like that for my variants in UR and Tithian had 2 ex-champions to teach him
#12 zombiegleemax Dec 12, 2005 3:27:11	in 2e, templars had the option of just dropping all levels and starting over from scratch. didn't have to do it as fighters. most of them either became defilers or psions. far as i remember anyway. as for me: tithian doesn't become king. agis does. tithian remains high templar/prime minister, but with help from the heads yoinks enough artifacts from the treasury or whatever to accomplish enough level dropping to do what i want him to.