Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 jon_oracle_of_athas Dec 12, 2005 16:54:07	This thread's purpose is to gather fan input on the stats of Dregoth, Hamanu, Lalali-Puy and Nibenay. What ability scores, classes, feats, abilities, spells etc. do you picture them having? Assume class level range 40 for Dregoth and 30-35 for the three others (not including Champion of Rajaat template). We will use your input when building the sorcerer-monarchs, so do this seriously. If possible, base your rationale for your suggestions.
#2 nytcrawlr Dec 12, 2005 16:57:48	Ugh. Those level limits are a bit too low don't you think?
#3 jon_oracle_of_athas Dec 12, 2005 17:01:34	Challenging the base assumptions of the thread is a moot point. The level range was decided by the Epic Bureau based on board input and our own considerations.
#4 ruhl-than_sage Dec 12, 2005 17:31:59	Challenging the base assumptions of the thread is a moot point. The level range was decided by the Epic Bureau based on board input and our own considerations. I love you, Jon :inlove: .
#5 nytcrawlr Dec 12, 2005 17:44:41	Challenging the base assumptions of the thread is a moot point. The level range was decided by the Epic Bureau based on board input and our own considerations. Then it's pretty much all an excercise in futility...
#6 ruhl-than_sage Dec 12, 2005 17:54:21	Then it's pretty much all an excercise in futility... :P :P :P :P
#7 cnahumck Dec 12, 2005 18:12:08	Well, I guess I’ll dive in first. One thing I think Nibenay would be is more focused on magic. He is the one that supposedly came up with the spell to imprison Rajaat in the Hollow, and he had good working knowledge of the Black. I would even go so far as to say give him some levels in Shadow Wizard, if it wasn’t for the fact that his description in the PP does not include this, and Andy may have the market cornered now for “Shadow” stuff. I would think that Nibenay should be second in power as a caster only to Dregoth. As far as the others are concerned, I think Hamanu would have levels in Psychic Warrior, and he might be the only one of the Champions to use the Cerebralmancer PrC, because of his “elevation” to Champion status after the fact. Dregoth would probably have the most spellcasting ability, as well as some knowledge of Lifeshaping. (although the Dregoth in another thread is really good.) The Oba seems to me to perhaps have taken some levels of ranger, or something else that would be more in tune with the forest type environment, though I see her following in Oronis’s footsteps fairly quickly. I am not sure how to have a dragon be at home in a lush forest. Anyway, just initial thoughts.
#8 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Dec 12, 2005 18:31:31	Well, I guess I’ll dive in first. One thing I think Nibenay would be is more focused on magic. He is the one that supposedly came up with the spell to imprison Rajaat in the Hollow, and he had good working knowledge of the Black. I would even go so far as to say give him some levels in Shadow Wizard, if it wasn’t for the fact that his description in the PP does not include this, and Andy may have the market cornered now for “Shadow” stuff. I would think that Nibenay should be second in power as a caster only to Dregoth. Interesting. I personally had considered using levels of Shadow Wizard for Nibs before (he is the "Shadow" King heh), however it just never seemed to make complete sense to me. I mean... I think he'd be more of the strict Wizard type. Maybe he was some head of an Arcane University in the green age? Loremaster might fit. As far as the others are concerned, I think Hamanu would have levels in Psychic Warrior, and he might be the only one of the Champions to use the Cerebralmancer PrC, because of his “elevation” to Champion status after the fact. Heh. Actually, I had thought he'd not be a Cerebrmancer. Personally, I lean towards Psychic Warrior/Sorcerer, but I think the Sorcerer won't happen for Athas.org. But I definitely have him (plus Borys & Myron) as Psychic Warriors. Dregoth would probably have the most spellcasting ability, as well as some knowledge of Lifeshaping. (although the Dregoth in another thread is really good.) I'm against Lifeshaping personally. Lifeshaping should be something that is lost forever. Dregoth may have found some lifeshaped artifacts, just like I think Rajaat definitely had found more than his fair share. But I don't think lifeshaping is an achievable possibility for any of the races left after the Rebirth. The "Priests of Change" (Zik-Chil) for the Kreen Empire. That's a different subject. The Oba seems to me to perhaps have taken some levels of ranger, or something else that would be more in tune with the forest type environment, though I see her following in Oronis’s footsteps fairly quickly. I am not sure how to have a dragon be at home in a lush forest. Anyway, just initial thoughts. I personally think the Oba is just scamming everyone. She's simply out for herself, securing her own personal power base, which happens to mean that she masquerades as someone who is "nature minded". Those that really know her (like the other SK's), or remember legends of her (like the Aarakocra for instance -- she did massacre them for a few centuries) don't believe a word of it. She's a manipulative little wench who currently has an entire city convinced she's a goddess. They do her bidding, and it helps keep the status quo that the SK's seemed to need for the millenia they've been in charge.
#9 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Dec 12, 2005 18:33:42	Ugh. Those level limits are a bit too low don't you think? Bear in mind that their Challenge Ratings *will* be higher. After all, they are Champions of Rajaat, and Dragons. We are just looking at that range to work with for class levels.
#10 kalthandrix Dec 12, 2005 18:37:17	I do had a progression mapped out for the build I did on Dregoth and could easily drop 15 levels to bring him into the desired range if anyone so desired. Let me know.
#11 nytcrawlr Dec 12, 2005 19:17:01	Bear in mind that their Challenge Ratings *will* be higher. After all, they are Champions of Rajaat, and Dragons. We are just looking at that range to work with for class levels. Not worried about CR. I just think the level range is a bit low officially. Now I plan to go a bit higher than this, like 40-60 range, but I think officially it should be more of a 35-50 range. Maybe 40-50 range. But that's just the feeling I have towards it.
#12 zombiegleemax Dec 12, 2005 20:02:40	-thinks- Well, first I have to divorce myself from RaFoaDK... because I know thats not yalls bag, baby. -grins- Thoughts: Whatever the Oba's 'real nature and intent', the I think its safe to say that shes 1.) Deeply Evil, and 2.) Has a different 'long-term-plan' than the other SKs. Perhaps she has a less 'transformative' future in mind, which is why shes working on expanding the resource necessary to preserve her power in the current mileu (plant life), rather than trying for some kind of ultimate transformation (a la Dregorth, and possibly Nibenay). This awarness suggests shed stay away from the heavy defiling PRCs, perhaps (espc Leech)... though having her as an arch-consumer of life-force, capable of drinking and spending faster (if less efficiently) than her companions also casts her 'plants, plants, plants' agenda in line.. maybe shes trying to find some way to fuel the transformation off of plant, rather than animal, power.. or just needs a MASSIVE base to fuel the high-output, low-efficiency power shes not using? More later as I think on it...
#13 master_ivan Dec 12, 2005 20:55:44	well...my take on Lalaly Puy, is the same as cnahumks. I made a future based adventure where she teamed up with Oronis and became an Avangion. I think so, because, she never really was on the same page as the other Sks. She only cares for the power of a dragon because, that way she would have more than enough time to follow her own plans to restore Athas' forrests. Something in that direction, I can't quite put my thoughts into words at the moment, my plans for her are BIG. Which is why I made her become an Avangion, full stage. And that they, her and Oronis, were the first real Gods on Athas, for in my head only Avangions are noble enough to become gods on athas. But I assume this thread is meant for stats speculation not what their plans could possibly be :D so...when I think of Lalali Puy, I see her having a few cleric levels (earth), maybe even an elemental master. She might be the weakest of them all in spellcasting but an excelent mindbender. If she fooled the others for so long (assuming that the above statement is correct) she must be a master in mindgames and fooling the others takes a lot of cunning. But, I see Hamanu as the strongest mindbender of them all. Dregoth not as excelent a mindbender as Hamanu, but not much weaker than the Lion of Urik. Dregoth and Nibenay are far better magicians than Hamanu and the Oba. As someone said before, Nibenay found out how to imprison Rajaat and Dregoth found a way to sidestep the rage in the transformation. I don't know if that brought you guys anywhere, but I wanna try give my vision of things. I'm gonna try to come up with some stats before the weekend.
#14 Zardnaar Dec 12, 2005 21:45:45	I would aim for something close to 2nd ed stats in terms of caster/manifester level. In 2nd ed Hammanu was a 23rd level Dragon. In 3.5 he should have 23rd level in Psion/Defiler with maybe a few Fighter levels added into the mix. PrCs like the Cerebmancer should be used. I've already expressed my opinions on dual progression PrCs into the epic levels. To me Hammanu would be something like. Psion 5, Defiler5, Cerebremancer10,XYZ 8,Fighter 8 XYZ being another PrC that allows full dual progression. Also they should have Dragon HD (d12s) and Dragon BAB- maybe via a template or something. Not a fan of the Psychic Warrior class and probably isn't needed.
#15 the_peacebringer Dec 13, 2005 7:21:28	I think it was Xlor who had the Oba as a Thrallherd. I thought that was fitting.
#16 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Dec 13, 2005 8:30:18	I guess I can put together my real ideas on the level breakdown of each SK... At least, the class break-down. I don't have time now, but hopefully soon (finals week is such a breeze).
#17 Sysane Dec 13, 2005 8:32:46	My personal opinion is that the SKs should all have some combination of cerebremancer, archmage, and Athasian dragon of varying levels. Another thing that should be considered in assigning classes and levels is the individual personalities of the SKs. People should take into account their roles as Champions and the type of race they were charged with cleansing. Examples: Hamanu may have had levels in pyromancer to aid him with slaying trolls, Nibnay could have had a few levels of rogue in order to gain a deeper understanding of the gnome mind set. This is just a suggestion. I feel this would help give the SKs a bit more of an individual feel and richness as characters rather than just making them maxed out defiler/manifester carbon copies of each other.
#18 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Dec 13, 2005 8:39:41	My personal opinion is that the SKs should all have some combination of cerebremancer, archmage, and Athasian dragon of varying levels. Another thing that should be consider in assigning classes and levels is the individual personalities of the SKs. People should take into account their roles as Champions and the type of race they were charged with cleansing. Examples: Hamanu may have had levels in pyromancer to aid him with slaying trolls, Nibnay could have had a few levels of rogue in order to gain a deeper understanding of the gnome mind set. This is just a suggestion. I feel this would help give the SKs a bit more of an individual feel and richness as characters rather than just making them maxed out defiler/manifester carbon copies of each other. I tend to agree that making them have levels matching their personalities, as well as the races they hunted, would be nice.
#19 brun01 Dec 13, 2005 10:21:49	I think Hamanu should have levels in the Marshall PrC, even though it's not OGC...
#20 Sysane Dec 13, 2005 11:19:22	I could see Hamanu and/or Borys with levels of eldritch knight, and Dregoth and Nibenay with levels of Loremaster.
#21 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Dec 13, 2005 11:43:06	I think Hamanu should have levels in the Marshall PrC, even though it's not OGC... FYI - Marshal is a base class, not PrC :P /nitpick
#22 brun01 Dec 13, 2005 11:55:00	I deliberately insert minor inaccuracies just to make sure everybody's carefully reading what I write.
#23 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Dec 13, 2005 13:09:14	I deliberately insert minor inaccuracies just to make sure everybody's carefully reading what I write. So in other words, you were just testing us?
#24 brun01 Dec 13, 2005 13:22:42	Or course! Here's your cookie
#25 Sysane Dec 13, 2005 13:45:09	Here's a class break down for Hamanu. I'm sure people will have issue with it, but if I did the calculations right, its legit mechanic wise. wizard 6 / psychic warrior 8 / cerebermancer 7 / eldritch knight 4 / archmage 3 / athasian dragon 4 / pyrokineticist 4
#26 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Dec 13, 2005 13:55:37	Here's a class break down for Hamanu. I'm sure people will have issue with it, but if I did the calculations right, its legit mechanic wise. wizard 6 / psychic warrior 8 / cerebermancer 7 / eldritch knight 4 / archmage 3 / athasian dragon 4 / pyrokineticist 4 I'm still not sold on Hamanu being a Cerebrmancer - he just doesn't seem the type to me (personal opinion). Or an Archmage, for that matter (Arch Defiler, maybe). I do like the pyrokineticist levels, and I have a feeling that the Cerebrmancer is needed just to provide those. Level 36 as well. Not bad overall. I'm still partial to him being a Sorcerer rather than a Wizard, but that's for personal reasons, once again.
#27 Sysane Dec 13, 2005 14:11:10	I'm still not sold on Hamanu being a Cerebrmancer - he just doesn't seem the type to me (personal opinion). Or an Archmage, for that matter (Arch Defiler, maybe). I do like the pyrokineticist levels, and I have a feeling that the Cerebrmancer is needed just to provide those. Level 36 as well. Not bad overall. I'm still partial to him being a Sorcerer rather than a Wizard, but that's for personal reasons, once again. I'm not thrilled with cerebramancer either, but it does seem like a necessary evil in order to qualify for the athasian dragon PrC without being uber in levels. I tried to switch it up with giving him levels in eldritch knight rather than continued levels in cerebermancer or wizard. As for archmage vs arch defiler, I don't see him as being that "sinister". Perhaps if he was one of Rajaat's original students/champions but I don't see him as focused on defiling as much as other SKs would have been.
#28 Sysane Dec 13, 2005 15:05:19	Here's my shot at Nibenay. wizard 5 / psion 8 / cerebremancer 6 / arch defiler 4 / archmage 4 / loremaster 5 / athasian dragon 6
#29 elonarc Dec 13, 2005 16:34:12	I think it would be much more flavourful if we would stay away from the Prestige Classes in the Dungeon Master Guide for the class levels of the Sorcerer Kings and rather try to use ones from Prestige Class Appendix I. My personal opinion is that the Archmage is much more suited for a high-magic campaign setting like the Forgotten Realms. I would suggest using Arch Defiler instead. The Loremaster and Eldritch Knight also seem unfit for Dark Sun, for my taste we are taking magic a little bit too much for granted. I see the point in the Loremaster as a "sage"-Prestige Class, but I think it could be accomplished in a more flavourful way (using feats and skills). I would rather like to see Prestige Classes like Arch Defiler, Leech or Shadow Wizard being used instead of forcefully introducing the Dungeon Master Guide's Prestige Classes. But perhaps most of you are just more familiar with the mechanics of these Prestige Classes and therefore suggest them. Take this as a point to discuss.
#30 csk Dec 13, 2005 17:07:48	I'd say that while new Loremasters are probably unlikely, the SKs could very well have levels in it because they generally grew up in the Green Age where Athas was somewhat more like other worlds with magical academies, etc.
#31 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Dec 13, 2005 18:36:24	I think it would be much more flavourful if we would stay away from the Prestige Classes in the Dungeon Master Guide for the class levels of the Sorcerer Kings and rather try to use ones from Prestige Class Appendix I. My personal opinion is that the Archmage is much more suited for a high-magic campaign setting like the Forgotten Realms. I would suggest using Arch Defiler instead. The Loremaster and Eldritch Knight also seem unfit for Dark Sun, for my taste we are taking magic a little bit too much for granted. I see the point in the Loremaster as a "sage"-Prestige Class, but I think it could be accomplished in a more flavourful way (using feats and skills). I would rather like to see Prestige Classes like Arch Defiler, Leech or Shadow Wizard being used instead of forcefully introducing the Dungeon Master Guide's Prestige Classes. But perhaps most of you are just more familiar with the mechanics of these Prestige Classes and therefore suggest them. Take this as a point to discuss. I tend to agree that the PrC's don't really fit for your average character. But the Sorcerer-Kings really do come from a different time. They came from a world filled with green things, a world where Arcane Magic wasn't hated and reviled, but taught openly (with Rajaat having given the world the knowledge of Preserver magic openly at first). A world where it is concievable that there may have been Schools of Arcane Magic in different kingdoms, and the higher learning that would be attributed to the Archmage and the Loremaster. We're talking about a time before the Cleansing Wars, a few thousand years after the Rebirth. Plenty of time for such things to have been developed. Now, the Cleansing Wars, and the Age of the Sorcerer-Kings has radically changed that point of view, the very nature of the world even. As such, these Prestige Classes may not be present in the everyday world of Athas. But it doesn't mean that beings which have been around since before all the trouble really began, also must not have these Prestige Classes. That said, Hamanu does come from a time during the Cleansing Wars, and his Prestige Class selection shouldn't quite be as open as the others. Further, a number of the Prestige Classes from the Appendix by Athas.org may prove benefitial as well -- just don't lock so strongly into that document for the Sorcerer-Kings, for the exact same reason that it's not good to completely ignore the other OGC Prestige Classes.
#32 squidfur- Dec 13, 2005 20:13:51	I guess I can put together my real ideas on the level breakdown of each SK... At least, the class break-down. I don't have time now, but hopefully soon (finals week is such a breeze). How 'bout a little help. :D remember these Xlor NOTE - these use Xlorep's old house rules, so the dragon templates and prestige classes would be swapped with the new...and not sure if the sk template is even still an idea (i think most here are hopin' that's it not). ALSO NOTE - I'm sure he's changed his mind numerous times sense then, and will more than likely show us just how much, but IMO this selection is a pretty good base to go off of. (very) Brief sorcerer-king sketch Dregoth, the Undead Dragon-King, Dread Lord of New Giustenal (Level 75) Class/Levels: Erudite 8/Wizard(defiler) 3/Cerebmancer 4/Arch-Defiler 10/Metamind 10/Arch Psion 5/Archmage 5/Dragon(stage-1) 10/Dragon(stage-2) 10/Dragon(stage-3) 10 Templates: Champion of Rajaat (Giants), Sorcerer-Monarch, Dragon (Stage 1), Dragon (Stage 2), Dragon (Stage 3), Kaisharga Hamanu, King of the World, and Lion of Urik (Level 65) Class/Levels: Commoner 3/Marshal 15/Tactical Soldier 5/War Mind 10/Wizard(defiler) 17/Dragon(unique) 15 Templates: Champion of Rajaat II (Trolls, other Champions and all rebirth races not already covered by the other Champions including Humans), Sorcerer-Monarch Nibenay, the Shadow King of Nibenay (Level 60) Class/Levels: Psion(seer) 5/Wizard(defiler) 10/Shadow Wizard 10/Archmage 5/Shadow Mind 10/Dragon (stage-1) 10/Dragon (stage-2) 5 Templates: Champion of Rajaat (Gnomes), Sorcerer-Monarch, Dragon (Stage 1), Dragon (Stage 2) Lalai-Puy, the Oba, Forest-Goddess of Gulg (Level 55) Class/Levels: Psion(telepath) 15/Wizard(defiler) 10/Arch-Defiler 10/Thrallherd 10/Dragon (stage-1) 10 Templates: Champion of Rajaat (Aaracokra), Sorcerer-Monarch, Dragon (Stage 1) Oronis, the Avangion of Kurn (Level 51) Class/Levels: Psion(egoist) 11/Wizard(preserver)17/Sangehirn 10/Avangion (stage-1) 10/Avangion (stage-2) 3 Templates: Champion of Rajaat (Lizard Men), Sorcerer-Monarch, Avangion (Stage 1), Avangion (Stage 2) Daskinor, the Mad King of Eldaarich (Level 50) Class/Levels: Wilder 25/Wizard(defiler) 10/Arch-Defiler 10/Dragon (stage-1) 5 Templates: Champion of Rajaat (Goblins), Sorcerer-Monarch, Dragon (Stage 1) Sorcerer-Kings who were killed or imprisoned due to the events in the Prism Pentad Borys, the Dragon (Level 70) Class/Levels: Psychic Warrior 20/Wizard(defiler) 10/Arch-Defiler 10/Dragon (stage-1) 8/Dragon (stage-4)* 22 Templates: Champion of Rajaat (Dwarves), Sorcerer-Monarch, Dragon (Stage 1), Dragon (Stage 2), Dragon (Stage 3), Dragon (Stage 4) Andropinis, the Dictator of Balic (Level 58) Class/Levels: Aristocrat 3/Psion(nomad) 20/Wizard(defiler) 10/Arch-Defiler 10/Dragon (stage-1) 10, Dragon (stage 2) 5 Templates: Champion of Rajaat (Elves), Sorcerer-Monarch, Dragon (Stage 1), Dragon (Stage 2), Blacktouched** Abalach-Re, the Great Vizier of Raam (Level 54) *** Class/Levels: Psion (telepath) 26/Wizard(defiler) 10/Arch Defiler 10/Dragon (stage-1) 8 Templates: Champion of Rajaat (Orcs), Sorcerer-Monarch, Dragon (Stage 1) Kalak, the Tyrant of Tyr (Level 53) Class/Levels: Psion (shaper) 11/Wizard (defiler) 13/Arch Defiler 10/Archmage 5/Dragon (stage-1) 10/Dragon (stage-2) 4 Templates: Champion of Rajaat (Ogres), Sorcerer-Monarch, Dragon (Stage 1), Dragon (Stage 2), Dragon (Stage 3)****, Dragon (Stage 4)**** Tectucktitlay, the Father of Life and Master of the Two Moons for Draj (Level 52) Class/Levels: Warrior 5/Psion (kineticist) 20/Wizard (defiler) 10/Arch Defiler 10/Dragon (stage-1) 7 Templates: Champion of Rajaat (Wemics), Sorcerer-Monarch, Dragon (Stage 1) * I haven't made the Stage-4 prestige class yet, but it will be modelled after how Dragon Age Categories for Epic Dragons works from the Epic Level Handbook. There is no equivalent to the upcoming prestige class for this found in 2e materials. Also - note that Borys, though the use of the Dark Lens, and with the assistance of the other Sorcerer-Kings, accelerated his development when he made everyone Sorcerer-Kings in order to become the Dragon. As such, he's an underdeveloped dragon by my rules, and is lacking certian features associated with "normal" dragons - like wings. ** The Blacktouched template is only applied after or during Andropinis' imprisonment in The Black by Rajaat. *** Looking for Prestige Classes better suited for Abalach-Re and her....ahem....appetites. **** Kalak casts these spells in succession during the Verdant Passage to accelerate and complete his metamorphosis, at the expense of the lives of the entire population of the city-state of Tyr. Templates: Sorceror-Monarch - My own template. Working on retrieving it for use again. Pennarin has a merged version of this and the next template together. To summarize - this template ireflects the changes they recieved when borys used the Dark Lens on them, and their connection with the Elemental Vortices, allowing then to, among other things, grant divine spells to their Templars, communicate remotely with their Templars, anuse their Templars' senses to extend their own, allowing for them to cast spells, use powers and the such through them, if needed. Hamanu's Dragon (unique) and Champion of Rajaat II are something special I'm whipping up just for him. They aren't done yet - but I'll slap them up there. Prestige Classes: Erudite - Dragon magazine, if I recall. #319 I wanna say. Cerebmancer - Expanded Psionics Handbook Marshal - Miniatures Handbook Metamind - Expanded Psionics Handbook Sangehirn - The Mind's Eye (wotC's D&D Website, Psionics-specific part) Shadow Mind - The Mind's Eye (also now in Complete Adventurer IIRC) Thrallherd - Expanded Psionics Handbook Tactical Soldier - Miniatures Handbook Arch Psion - The Mind's Eye War Mind - Expanded Psionics Handbook
#33 Pennarin Dec 13, 2005 21:01:50	I don't see a problem with the Loremaster PrC, maybe a bit with the Archmage, but even then. The Loremaster is not a powerhouse, the fluff is pretty ordinary, the abilities are simple and straightforward. Fevil would have levels in Loremaster, and so would that guy described in VA who studies Kalidnay. Elven wizards wanting to marry their rogue skills would become Arcane Tricksters, and elven fighters that run all day and fight without armor or shield would be Duelists. That's about it.
#34 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Dec 13, 2005 22:25:29	How 'bout a little help. :D remember these Xlor NOTE - these use Xlorep's old house rules, so the dragon templates and prestige classes would be swapped with the new...and not sure if the sk template is even still an idea (i think most here are hopin' that's it not). ALSO NOTE - I'm sure he's changed his mind numerous times sense then, and will more than likely show us just how much, but IMO this selection is a pretty good base to go off of. I actually was going to totally redo those. Mainly because the rules mechanics have changed. For the most part, I still have specific personal views as to what I feel each Sorcerer-King should be, and they haven't changed all that much, but the levels I gave there were way higher than what we're shooting for at Athas.org. Especially since I cannot give any real justifiable reason for bumping up the levels so high other than just to bump them up higher because I "feel" that they should be higher, and no real logical explanation to it.
#35 Sysane Dec 14, 2005 9:22:20	I feel that the arch mage would still fit in the case of the SKs. They are after all some of the first wizards to ever walk the face of Athas. As for the DS PrCs, I don't feel that they would fit any of the surviving SKs other than arch defiler. I could see some of the dead SKs with levels in leech like Sacha and Wyan due to their twisted personalities. Andropinis could have a few levels of shadow wizard, but feel its unjustified to give Nibenay levels in it. The title "Shadow King" was given to him due to his reclusive nature not becuase of any ties to the Black.
#36 Pennarin Dec 14, 2005 12:13:29	I feel that the arch mage would still fit in the case of the SKs. They are after all some of the first wizards to ever walk the face of Athas. The oldest living wizards, perhaps, but not the first by...oh, 4,500 years! :P
#37 Pennarin Dec 14, 2005 12:16:12	I could see some of the dead SKs with levels in leech like Sacha and Wyan due to their twisted personalities. As far as observation can help determine such information, the novels can be taken as pointers that the two heads have no spellcasting abilties, only psionics. Something about them losing thier bodies.
#38 phanuel Dec 14, 2005 13:16:05	I feel that the arch mage would still fit in the case of the SKs. They are after all some of the first wizards to ever walk the face of Athas. I seem to remember in the Prism Pentad that the sorcerer kings stated that the Way was at its height in the Green Age. (This was many many years ago mind you). I had always assumed that any powers or such that one would have found in the D&D source books would just be psionic in nature as opposed to magical. As such, I also assumed that magic just wasn't that common at all. In fact, it was quite rare and only the students of Rajaat and such would be wizards. Because of this, I always thought that archmage wasn't suitable for a prestige class in DarkSun. As for psionic disciplines, if one goes off the old Will and Way book, the high sciences gave away what each should be. Hamanu had megakinesis so he would be a kineticist, Nibennay had cosmic awareness, which would make him a clairescent (spelling?), and I can't remember what the others had. What does everyone think on these?
#39 zombiegleemax Dec 14, 2005 13:47:09	I'm going to give a thumbs up to the race specific class levels as well. I'd also like to point out that the Ranger class' favoured enemy class feature, along with their Track feat would be a good addition to many sorcerer-kings. This would probably be more for the militant type monarchs, like Hammanu, Borys, and Dregoth. I'm not sure if the template gives them abilities like this, but it would be a good thing for them to fall back on in the rare instances that their racial enemies could mask their presence via psionics or magic.
#40 Sysane Dec 14, 2005 14:29:47	As far as observation can help determine such information, the novels can be taken as pointers that the two heads have no spellcasting abilties, only psionics. Something about them losing thier bodies. I was refering more to the spell casting abilities they would have had before the loss of their bodies.
#41 Sysane Dec 14, 2005 14:32:11	The oldest living wizards, perhaps, but not the first by...oh, 4,500 years! :P You got the gist of what I was trying to get at. Lets not split hairs :P ;)
#42 Sysane Dec 14, 2005 14:40:51	I seem to remember in the Prism Pentad that the sorcerer kings stated that the Way was at its height in the Green Age. (This was many many years ago mind you). I had always assumed that any powers or such that one would have found in the D&D source books would just be psionic in nature as opposed to magical. As such, I also assumed that magic just wasn't that common at all. In fact, it was quite rare and only the students of Rajaat and such would be wizards. Because of this, I always thought that archmage wasn't suitable for a prestige class in DarkSun. Canon states that Rajaat taught all the races of the Green Age the art of arcane magic. Yes, Rajaat was the first teacher, but his first students would have gone and taught others and their students would have done the same. So, magic was and would have been very abundant on Athas before the time of the Preserver Jihad.
#43 Pennarin Dec 14, 2005 15:12:21	You got the gist of what I was trying to get at. Lets not split hairs :P ;) Hehe, i was - i hope - visibly having fun there, no harm intended. ;)
#44 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Dec 14, 2005 17:26:27	I feel that the arch mage would still fit in the case of the SKs. They are after all some of the first wizards to ever walk the face of Athas. I'd hardly say among the "first" wizards to walk the face of Athas. I'd say they are from several generations after Wizardy was introduced. They were supposed to not just be the top students of Wizardry. They are the top of the Defilers, which were taught separately and in secret from the Preservers, and the Defilers were the cream of the crop of the Preservers, chosen from the various schools that had sprung up after the First Sorcerer had introduced Arcane Magic. That, at least to me, doesn't sound like a one-generational leap. That sounds like a bit more spread out process. Besides, I believe the timeline even supports that there were hundreds (or thousands) of years between when Rajaat introduced magic, to when he christened his Champions. But I'd agree that there's room for the Archmage. I just don't really see how it could work for Hamanu. He never has stuck out in my mind as the type who would be an Archmage. As for the DS PrCs, I don't feel that they would fit any of the surviving SKs other than arch defiler. I could see some of the dead SKs with levels in leech like Sacha and Wyan due to their twisted personalities. Andropinis could have a few levels of shadow wizard, but feel its unjustified to give Nibenay levels in it. The title "Shadow King" was given to him due to his reclusive nature not becuase of any ties to the Black. True enough.
#45 Sysane Dec 14, 2005 17:34:37	I'd hardly say among the "first" wizards to walk the face of Athas. I'd say they are from several generations after Wizardy was introduced. They were supposed to not just be the top students of Wizardry. They are the top of the Defilers, which were taught separately and in secret from the Preservers, and the Defilers were the cream of the crop of the Preservers, chosen from the various schools that had sprung up after the First Sorcerer had introduced Arcane Magic. That, at least to me, doesn't sound like a one-generational leap. That sounds like a bit more spread out process. Besides, I believe the timeline even supports that there were hundreds (or thousands) of years between when Rajaat introduced magic, to when he christened his Champions. Yeah, I was a little off with saying "the first", but they were certianly the cream of the crop that the Green Age had to offer.
#46 master_ivan Dec 14, 2005 19:01:12	Here's my idea...wee bit more than Jon was talking about, but....what the heck! Nibenay: Defiler 7 Psion 6 Cerebremancer 5 Shadow Wizard 5 Arch Defiler 8 Rogue 3 Assasin 3 Dragon 4 Lalali Puy: Defiler 7 Psion 10 Cerebremancer 5 Arch Defiler 5 Cleric (earth or rain) 5 or Ranger 5 Dragon 2 or option B: Defiler 7 Psion 7 Thrallherd 7 Arch Defiler 10 Ranger/Cleric 5 Dragon 2 Hamanu: Psychic Warrior 7 Defiler 8 Psion 5 Metamind 10 Arch Defiler 9 Dragon 3 Oronis: Preserver 5 Psion 6 Arch Mage (preserver?) 10 Cerebremancer 5 Psychic Warrior 8 Avangion 6
#47 Sysane Dec 14, 2005 19:54:12	Here's how I would stat out Lalali Puy. wizard 8 / psion 8 / cerebermancer 7 / archmage 3 / arch defiler 2/ athasian dragon 4 / myrmeleon 5
#48 master_ivan Dec 14, 2005 19:57:50	Here's how I would stat out Lalali Puy. wizard 8 / psion 8 / cerebermancer 7 / archmage 3 / arch defiler 2/ athasian dragon 4 / myrmeleon 5 is there a difference between archmage and arch defiler? But myrmeleon is good!
#49 Sysane Dec 14, 2005 20:22:16	is there a difference between archmage and arch defiler? Yes, very much so.
#50 master_ivan Dec 14, 2005 20:27:16	Yes, very much so. Okey, I'm gonna read and weep!
#51 zombiegleemax Dec 14, 2005 21:06:56	i personally will be upping the levels some, but thats neither here nor there . . :P some things to keep in mind. all of rajaats champs were, before he chose them, masters in psionics. so when coming up with the blocks, you should keep in mind that each and every one should be statted out as a psionic character up to a point. figure maybe they were all at least 11th level in psionic classes before they took their first level in an arcane class. also, most of them were apparently nobility or even royalty. so levels in noble or aristocrat might be appropriate. after being taught enough arcane classes, they were likely taught by rajaat to combine the two, resulting in cerebremancer or mind mage levels, or any class that grants dual progression. so this means they'll have more than enough psi levels to qualify for the dual-prog prcs, plus the minimum or so arcane classes to qualify for the dual-prog prcs, then the dual-prog prcs mostly for a while, plus whatever else classes they pick up along the way, then eventually a few levels in dragon. is stuff in dragon magazine considered open content? hamanu is a special case if we grant rise and fall: he's just a schmuck, and then rajaat remade him. to be a dragon. so he should ahve the absolute fastest and msot efficient route to being a dragon in classes. so psi/defiler/cerebremancer/dragon. added on to his initial classes (probably something like commoner/warrior/psychic warrior). after which, maybe a few levels in dragon. But he doesn't like defiling magic, only rarely using it. so then jac up his psychic warrior levels again, and let his magic wilt in exchange for boosting his psi and combat abilities.
#52 dregonflyus Dec 15, 2005 4:27:02	all of rajaats champs were, before he chose them, masters in psionics. were all at least 11th level in psionic classes before they took their first level in an arcane class. after being taught enough arcane classes, they were likely taught by rajaat to combine the two, resulting in cerebremancer hamanu is a special case , so he should have the absolute fastest and most efficient route to being a dragon in classes. My thoughts exactly...
#53 kalthandrix Dec 15, 2005 6:57:13	I've been quite on most of this thread- mostly due to work- but I am liking most of the ideas.
#54 Sysane Dec 15, 2005 6:57:54	some things to keep in mind. all of rajaats champs were, before he chose them, masters in psionics. so when coming up with the blocks, you should keep in mind that each and every one should be statted out as a psionic character up to a point. figure maybe they were all at least 11th level in psionic classes before they took their first level in an arcane class. also, most of them were apparently nobility or even royalty. so levels in noble or aristocrat might be appropriate. after being taught enough arcane classes, they were likely taught by rajaat to combine the two, resulting in cerebremancer or mind mage levels, or any class that grants dual progression. so this means they'll have more than enough psi levels to qualify for the dual-prog prcs, plus the minimum or so arcane classes to qualify for the dual-prog prcs, then the dual-prog prcs mostly for a while, plus whatever else classes they pick up along the way, then eventually a few levels in dragon. I don't think it was stated that they were psioinc masters only that they were talented in it to some degree. First and foremost, Rajaat was more interested in their aptitude in the arcane over their skills in the way.
#55 kalthandrix Dec 15, 2005 7:09:40	On the build I have done- I have always started them in a psy-class- with at least 8 levels in that class before anything else.
#56 nytcrawlr Dec 15, 2005 7:44:16	On the build I have done- I have always started them in a psy-class- with at least 8 levels in that class before anything else. I would say that that is a pretty good rule to follow. I'll probably be following more of Capn's example for my own campaigns, but 8th level is just about right IMO.
#57 Sysane Dec 15, 2005 7:44:51	On the build I have done- I have always started them in a psy-class- with at least 8 levels in that class before anything else. As have I. As pointed out by others, the SKs were more practiced in the arts of magic than those of psionics.
#58 Sysane Dec 15, 2005 8:28:01	Here's what I came up with for Andropinis. wizard 6 / psion 7 / arch defiler 3 / archmage 2 / cerebrmancer 5 / athasian dragon 3 / shadow wizard 2 / elocater 6
#59 ruhl-than_sage Dec 15, 2005 9:30:35	You guys are really going crazy with the PrCs. The SKs are looking like some seriously scatter brained multiclassing *****s.
#60 ruhl-than_sage Dec 15, 2005 9:31:45	I didn't realize that calling someone promiscuos would get me censored.
#61 nytcrawlr Dec 15, 2005 9:46:23	You guys are really going crazy with the PrCs. The SKs are looking like some seriously scatter brained multiclassing *****s. Another reason why I am staying away. To me they would have more core classes and a PrC, maybe two, but that's it. Course that tends to be my thinking across the board for PrCs, they aren't suppose to be handed out like candy, despite what the general consensus of the D&D/d20 universe wants.
#62 csk Dec 15, 2005 10:26:14	I agree about the PrCs; they should be relatively few in number. A PrC is supposed to be a specialization to which you are dedicated, not something you dabble in because you're bored.
#63 Sysane Dec 15, 2005 11:06:49	You guys are really going crazy with the PrCs. The SKs are looking like some seriously scatter brained multiclassing *****s. Another reason why I am staying away. To me they would have more core classes and a PrC, maybe two, but that's it. Course that tends to be my thinking across the board for PrCs, they aren't suppose to be handed out like candy, despite what the general consensus of the D&D/d20 universe wants. I agree about the PrCs; they should be relatively few in number. A PrC is supposed to be a specialization to which you are dedicated, not something you dabble in because you're bored. We're dealing with beings that have lived "thousands" of years. Through out that time their roles have changed many times. Students, Champions, Dragons, Rulers. Each time their role changed so would the skills that they needed in order to adapt to that new role. Look at your own lives. How many times have our careers changed? Each time that it did our new positions required us to adapt to a new skill base and set of responsibilities. I could maybe drop a PrC or two from each of them, but that would make them pretty bland and unrealistic (if I can use that word for a fantasy game) IMO.
#64 csk Dec 15, 2005 11:48:23	Each time their role changed so would the skills that they needed in order to adapt to that new role. Look at your own lives. How many times have our careers changed? Each time that it did our new positions required us to adapt to a new skill base and set of responsibilities. That's what skills and feats are for. Your class is a more general indication of your abilities. Also, I don't really think shadow wizards fit for the sorcerer kings. They're defilers, and if they had access to another power source they would probably be likely to use it. Finally I'm, just curious. Why you think Andy would be an elocater?
#65 Sysane Dec 15, 2005 11:54:58	Also, I don't really think shadow wizards fit for the sorcerer kings. They're defilers, and if they had access to another power source they would probably be likely to use it. Finally I'm, just curious. Why you think Andy would be an elocater? Andy's trapped in the Black. How else is he going to cast spells without life force unless he adapts to useing another energy source? Elocater came to me as a class that would aid him with eradicating the elves. Chasing them down must have been a task in itself. The abilities of the elocater would help in that. That could just be me though, but thought it also gave him a bit of flavor.
#66 nytcrawlr Dec 15, 2005 12:06:49	Look at your own lives. How many times have our careers changed? Each time that it did our new positions required us to adapt to a new skill base and set of responsibilities. I don't know about you, but not many people change their careers often, though they do change *jobs* often. Huge difference there. I have had many jobs, but just one career (if you can call it that) so far, and will be changing once I get my degree, which is many years away. And that's the way I see classes and PrCs. Classes = jobs, PrCs = careers, and sorry, thousand year life span or not, I don't see someone changing their careers all that often since that is a very difficult task to do. Keeping it to one or two PrCs seems pretty reasonable to me. Esp since people keep adding PrCs that don't even fit, like Shadow Wizard. The title that Nibenay has is just that, a title, nothing more. If anyone should be taking the shadow wizard PrC it would be Andy once he is free from the black, if even then.
#67 csk Dec 15, 2005 12:21:25	Andy's trapped in the Black. How else is he going to cast spells without life force unless he adapts to useing another energy source? Good point.
#68 master_ivan Dec 15, 2005 12:29:39	I agree with you guys, but Jon gave us 30-35 lvls to "play" with... Because in 2nd edition they had to be defiler 20 and psionicist 20 to become a dragon, so I was just trying to make the best out of these 35 levels. If you ask me they should have a space of 45-55 lvls and Dregoth 55-65 lvls, I mean c'mon they are at least 3500 years old! And they have ruled the Tablelands for ca. 2000 years!
#69 Sysane Dec 15, 2005 12:34:23	I don't know about you, but not many people change their careers often, though they do change *jobs* often. Huge difference there. I have had many jobs, but just one career (if you can call it that) so far, and will be changing once I get my degree, which is many years away. Thats just you. I've had many jobs and several career changes. I won't bore people with that list of those though. And that's the way I see classes and PrCs. Classes = jobs, PrCs = careers, and sorry, thousand year life span or not, I don't see someone changing their careers all that often since that is a very difficult task to do. I don't view as such. PrCs are more like specialties. You can be an athlete (a class) but excel in one particular sport like baseball (PrC). Keeping it to one or two PrCs seems pretty reasonable to me. As I said, maybe for someone with a mortal life span of 90 years that would fly, but there's no way that a being that is 2000+ years old wouldn't seek out knowledge in other areas. Esp since people keep adding PrCs that don't even fit, like Shadow Wizard. The title that Nibenay has is just that, a title, nothing more. I'm in total agrement with you on this one. I made that same arguement in an eailier in the thread. If anyone should be taking the shadow wizard PrC it would be Andy once he is free from the black, if even then. Again I agree with you. I'd figure at some point during his time there Andy would figure out a way to tap into the Black.
#70 nytcrawlr Dec 15, 2005 12:35:16	I agree with you guys, but Jon gave us 30-35 lvls to "play" with... Because in 2nd edition they had to be defiler 20 and psionicist 20 to become a dragon, so I was just trying to make the best out of these 35 levels. There's nothing wrong with giving them a heck of a lot more wizard and psion levels, or whatever core class is applicable. If you ask me they should have a space of 45-55 lvls and Dregoth 55-65 lvls, I mean c'mon they are at least 3500 years old! And they have ruled the Tablelands for ca. 2000 years! I agree, but unfortunately we were overruled before it ever became an official discussion.
#71 nytcrawlr Dec 15, 2005 12:42:24	Thats just you. I've had many jobs and several career changes. I won't bore people with that list. You're in the minority then. I don't know too many people that have gone through many career changes. It's not a very easy task to do. As far as the PrC = specialty thing, that's another way to interpret it, but not so sure that's the correct way to interpret it. Just a difference of opinion. Regardless, there's no reason why we can't keep the PrC selection to one or two, maybe three at most instead of doing what some of these conversions are suggesting. A single class wizard or psion is pretty damn powerful by itself without having to take a PrC. Same goes for a multiclass wiz/psi combo that's pretty high level in both classes.
#72 Sysane Dec 15, 2005 13:28:08	Here's a revised break down of the SKs. I dropped some of the PrCs I had originally tagged to them. Hamanu wizard 10 / psychic warrior 11 / cerebermancer 7 / athasian dragon 4 / pyrokineticist 4 Andropinis wizard 10 / psion (nomad) 9 / arch defiler 5 / cerebrmancer 6 / athasian dragon 3 / shadow wizard 1 Lalali-Puy wizard 9 / psion (telepath) 8 / cerebermancer 7 / arch defiler 3 / athasian dragon 4 / myrmeleon 5 Nibenay wizard 7 / psion (seer) 8 / cerebremancer 7 / arch defiler 5 / loremaster 5 / athasian dragon 6
#73 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Dec 15, 2005 13:32:43	Nice Sysane. Clean, neat, and to the point. I like those.
#74 nytcrawlr Dec 15, 2005 13:39:28	Here's a revised break down of the SKs. I dropped some of the PrCs I had originally tagged to them. Much better. The cerebermancer is still way overused IMO, but I don't think there is any way to avoid that what with the low level restrictions we've been given.
#75 Pennarin Dec 15, 2005 13:41:22	I agree with Nyt that the SKs should have minimum PrCs and more levels in core classes. Elocator and Shadow Wizard don't fit. Saying that the elves were so fast it took Andy to become an elocator to beat them is the same as saying that Hamanu (due to his "eyes of fire" thingny) should be a pyrokineticist. We have no evidience of any of those things actually being true. All SKs were immensely strong, fast, and powerful, able to bent steel and all that, so they don't need exotic PrCs to hunt down and beat the crap out of punny mortal elves, dwarves, and the whole lot. Alternate energy sources may sound great for those SKs like Andy or Nib, but it would rob them of all their defiler advantages (defiler PrCs, dragon abilities, raze feats, etc). All SKs besides Oronis are defilers at heart, they like that stuff. They're not gonna give it up. All SKs seem mostly to be wizard/psions, with minor variations. These minor variations are those things that best fit the SK. For example, the marshall class is not OGC, so forget it everyone. Hamanu can instead have the Leadership feat and levels of fighter and psychic warrior. Even then: Why should Hamanu have an actual greater ability for "leadership" than every other SK? Because he leads his army into combat? Because he inspires them? Its not clear where the idea comes from. One source I do know of is RaFoaDK, which has it that Manu became the leader of a small human army in his mortal life, now that would fit with the Leadership feat idea.
#76 jon_oracle_of_athas Dec 15, 2005 13:47:03	Whoever came up with the ranger levels for the Oba, that correlates quite well with the hunting aspect of Gulg's culture and could aid explaining the importance of the Red Moon Hunt. Perhaps it is in memory of the hunt of her assigned race. Just speculation on my part.
#77 Sysane Dec 15, 2005 14:03:48	I agree with Nyt that the SKs should have minimum PrCs and more levels in core classes. Elocator and Shadow Wizard don't fit. Saying that the elves were so fast it took Andy to become an elocator to beat them is the same as saying that Hamanu (due to his "eyes of fire" thingny) should be a pyrokineticist. We have no evidience of any of those things actually being true. All SKs were immensely strong, fast, and powerful, able to bent steel and all that, so they don't need exotic PrCs to hunt down and beat the crap out of punny mortal elves, dwarves, and the whole lot. Alternate energy sources may sound great for those SKs like Andy or Nib, but it would rob them of all their defiler advantages (defiler PrCs, dragon abilities, raze feats, etc). All SKs besides Oronis are defilers at heart, they like that stuff. They're not gonna give it up. All SKs seem mostly to be wizard/psions, with minor variations. These minor variations are those things that best fit the SK. For example, the marshall class is not OGC, so forget it everyone. Hamanu can instead have the Leadership feat and levels of fighter and psychic warrior. Even then: Why should Hamanu have an actual greater ability for "leadership" than every other SK? Because he leads his army into combat? Because he inspires them? Its not clear where the idea comes from. One source I do know of is RaFoaDK, which has it that Manu became the leader of a small human army in his mortal life, now that would fit with the Leadership feat idea. I was attempting to give the SKs a little more character and distinctiveness. How unique or flavorful is giving them all psion/wizards with levels in dragon and cerebrmancer PrCs? Thats just making them cheap carbon copies of each other with the only distinction between them being actual level. Thats rather lack luster and un-insightful if you ask me.
#78 Sysane Dec 15, 2005 14:35:10	I realized that I didn't do Oronis. Oronis wizard 8 / psion (telepath) 8 / cerebremancer 6 / archmage 4 / restorationist 4 / avangion 5
#79 Pennarin Dec 15, 2005 14:48:06	Your stats are pretty good Sysane since your last change. The pyrokinetisist mention should still be killed IMO. Fire as an ability of Hamanu comes from RaFoaDK and in fact was described as an ability of Myron that Hamanu inherited when he killed him. Also, Hamanu is described as hating the eyes of fire and not using them ever again, so giving him class levels in a fire-based PrC is weird. Hamanu, in the only novel describing his attacks on the trolls - RaFoaDK - is said to have used ordinary methods, not fire: spells, powers, but mostly tactics, menpower, and swords, lots of them.
#80 kalthandrix Dec 15, 2005 14:54:11	I didn't realize that calling someone promiscuos would get me censored. HA HA [points at Sage]
#81 Sysane Dec 15, 2005 14:56:55	Your stats are pretty good Sysane since your last change. The pyrokinetisist mention should still be killed IMO. Fire as an ability of Hamanu comes from RaFoaDK and in fact was described as an ability of Myron that Hamanu inherited when he killed him. Also, Hamanu is described as hating the eyes of fire and not using them ever again, so giving him class levels in a fire-based PrC is weird. Hamanu, in the only novel describing his attacks on the trolls - RaFoaDK - is said to have used ordinary methods, not fire: spells, powers, but mostly tactics, menpower, and swords, lots of them. Actually, RaFoaDK was the furthest thing from my mind when I proposed giving him levels in pyrokinetisist. I just felt that giving him levels in that PrC made sense with him being Champion charged with destroying trolls. As I've stated a few times now, I was trying to capture the flavor of the SKs by taking into account of what little info we have on them from material in novels, game sources, and their roles as champions.
#82 Pennarin Dec 15, 2005 15:11:53	As I've stated a few times now, I was trying to capture the flavor of the SKs by taking into account of what little info we have on them from material in novels, game sources, and their roles as champions. That is an important point of contention: Did trolls possess roughly the same characteristics as the MM's trolls? One Dragon Magazine adventure seems to indicate so, and one novel says the contrary. Maybe I'm biased but I would choose to play it safe and remove special mentions of fire-related abilities; if he needs those, he can use psionics or spells.
#83 Sysane Dec 15, 2005 15:23:25	That is an important point of contention: Did trolls possess roughly the same characteristics as the MM's trolls? One Dragon Magazine adventure seems to indicate so, and one novel says the contrary. Maybe I'm biased but I would choose to play it safe and remove special mentions of fire-related abilities; if he needs those, he can use psionics or spells. That could be said and justified for any PrC and its abilities. Yet again, by following that rationale we risk making the SKs nothing more than unimaginative clones of one another.
#84 Pennarin Dec 15, 2005 15:35:57	I don't know why you keep repeting that man. I'm OK WITH WHAT YOU HAVE. The one bug I have is with the pyrokinetisist. You can change that to something else, nonfire-related. I can't believe you and me are the only ones who give a damn about Hamanu having fire-related class features!! Where's the other people's opinions? Anyone?! Indeed, cuting out pyrokinetisits will make Hamanu blender, so IMO replace it with something else. Fighter, War Mind, whatever.
#85 nytcrawlr Dec 15, 2005 15:51:03	Indeed, cuting out pyrokinetisits will make Hamanu blender, so IMO replace it with something else. Fighter, War Mind, whatever. Something Marshal-like would be best, yes.
#86 Pennarin Dec 15, 2005 16:27:37	The fluff of the War Mind's abilities in the SRD is suited for Dark Sun use. I would see the martial side of Hamanu be expressed by the War Mind PrC, and his leader abilities with the Leadership feat.
#87 jon_oracle_of_athas Dec 15, 2005 16:33:42	So, Sysane, what would your revised Dregoth level scheme be?
#88 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Dec 15, 2005 16:51:38	The fluff of the War Mind's abilities in the SRD is suited for Dark Sun use. I would see the martial side of Hamanu be expressed by the War Mind PrC, and his leader abilities with the Leadership feat. I actually had at one time considered using the War Mind in lieu of using the Psychic Warrior class for him, if it wasn't for the fact that the War Mind can only learn 5th level powers. If it could learn 6th level powers, it would be perfect for Hamanu's psionic progression. I've not done any digging on this, but is there an OGC feat that allows a manifester to learn a level higher in psionic powers than he or she normally could? Even if it was just 1 more power at level 6, that would qualify, in my book for Hamanu.
#89 master_ivan Dec 15, 2005 18:12:46	How's that? Nibenay: Defiler 10 Arch Defiler 9 Psion (Psychometabolism) 15 I'm just trying to make sure that I'm following you guys...if not...well, then I won't even bother trying again. :embarrass
#90 squidfur- Dec 15, 2005 18:23:41	I actually was going to totally redo those. Mainly because the rules mechanics have changed. For the most part, I still have specific personal views as to what I feel each Sorcerer-King should be, and they haven't changed all that much, but the levels I gave there were way higher than what we're shooting for at Athas.org. Especially since I cannot give any real justifiable reason for bumping up the levels so high other than just to bump them up higher because I "feel" that they should be higher, and no real logical explanation to it. Agreed, but remember too, that just by converting these builds to the new dragon rules would take off 20 levels (the new PrC's only 10 levels, whereas your's was 30 IIRC). So, I'm bettin' they aren't as far off as you think.
#91 master_ivan Dec 15, 2005 18:27:58	I actually had at one time considered using the War Mind in lieu of using the Psychic Warrior class for him, if it wasn't for the fact that the War Mind can only learn 5th level powers. If it could learn 6th level powers, it would be perfect for Hamanu's psionic progression. I also had thought about the War Mind and decied against it for the same reason.
#92 squidfur- Dec 15, 2005 18:34:19	hamanu is a special case if we grant rise and fall: he's just a schmuck, and then rajaat remade him. to be a dragon. so he should ahve the absolute fastest and msot efficient route to being a dragon in classes. so psi/defiler/cerebremancer/dragon. added on to his initial classes (probably something like commoner/warrior/psychic warrior). after which, maybe a few levels in dragon... On this, I'd say that Hamanu's transformation is unique, and as such was likely designed around his abilities. Meaning that, for him, the need for magical/psionic knowledge beforehand might not have even been necessary. Much better. The cerebermancer is still way overused IMO... I'll definately agree to that. IMO only 1 or 2 of the SK's should be cerebremancer's. Any more than that is just silly. And who should those 1 or 2 be....? I'm thinking Dregoth and/or Nibenay
#93 squidfur- Dec 15, 2005 18:43:53	I don't know why you keep repeting that man. I'm OK WITH WHAT YOU HAVE. The one bug I have is with the pyrokinetisist. You can change that to something else, nonfire-related. I can't believe you and me are the only ones who give a damn about Hamanu having fire-related class features!! Where's the other people's opinions? Anyone?! Sorry man!!! Jeez, some of us have lives and cant' be on here all day :P hee hee. To comment though, I also am against giving Hamanu, or anyone for that matter, levels in the pyrokineticist. You say you were drawing conclusions from what little info we have, but we do have the info on Hamanu, and nowhere is there mention of an affinity for fire - quite the contrary, as Penn pointed out. He disdained the use of his fire abilities. Not quite the epitome of a pyro IMO.
#94 squidfur- Dec 15, 2005 18:44:35	ahh, hell. had to happen eventually. DOUBLE POST!!!!!!!!
#95 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Dec 15, 2005 18:48:23	hamanu is a special case if we grant rise and fall: he's just a schmuck, and then rajaat remade him. to be a dragon. so he should ahve the absolute fastest and msot efficient route to being a dragon in classes. so psi/defiler/cerebremancer/dragon. added on to his initial classes (probably something like commoner/warrior/psychic warrior). after which, maybe a few levels in dragon. But he doesn't like defiling magic, only rarely using it. so then jac up his psychic warrior levels again, and let his magic wilt in exchange for boosting his psi and combat abilities. Well, I don't think that officially, Athas.org will "allow" Rise and Fall -- because there are a number of people who tend to reject the entire book, and don't want any part of it, and their voices are also heard. Personally, for Hamanu, I'd not so much look at the "fastest" path to Dragonhood. In fact, I'd do things a bit differently. Due to the connection to the Sorcerer class and the idea of being able to innately cast Arcane magic, I'd lean towards Sorcerer for Hamanu. I personally would love to use the War Mind PrC for his psionic manifesting. I'd also probably raise the sorcerer-king levels higher than we're doing at Athas.org because even though I cannot really rationalize a logical answer to the sorcerer-kings being higher level, it just still feels right for me. I'd have Hamanu not have many levels of Dragon. I'd also give him a couple levels of the NPC Warrior class because I'd consider that was what he was taking levels in when he was in Myron's army. Hell, while I'm at it, I usually have him be a unique case of both the Champion of Rajaat template (Champion of Rajaat II), and have it that unlike the others, Hamanu was started along as a Dragon -- or rather, a modified version of Dragon -- by Rajaat. I tend to think of him as being more or less forced to advance as a Dragon whether he'd like to or not -- which means he could be getting around the requirements for being a Dragon normally. But that's how I'd mold Hamanu for my personal campaigns. I have similar thoughts on how to mold the other SK's for my own campaigns, to match their personalities, and the data we have on them -- level restrictions off.
#96 master_ivan Dec 15, 2005 18:55:29	Yeah I don't see them gaining anything with the pyrokinetics. The special powers don't give them anything they can't get through their magical powers. Since they are the most powerful beings in the Tablelands, they can pretty much make their own weapons and bolts of fire....
#97 Pennarin Dec 15, 2005 19:22:36	Yeah I don't see them gaining anything with the pyrokinetics. The special powers don't give them anything they can't get through their magical powers. Since they are the most powerful beings in the Tablelands, they can pretty much make their own weapons and bolts of fire.... Which is one element of my point. These beings can effectively use their powers/spells to do 9 out of 10 things that a normal character could do at low levels using a PrC, so no need for those PrCs whose abilties are easily replicable using high-level powers/spells. Only those PrCs chosen for flavor reasons - like Lalali-Pui's myrmeleon (a nice move) or Oronis's restorationist, or Nibenay's loremaster - actually seem to fit these characters.
#98 Sysane Dec 15, 2005 19:48:03	So, Sysane, what would your revised Dregoth level scheme be? I don't want to trample on Kal's work but with the level constraints I'd level Dregoth as follows: Dregoth wizard 7/ psion (telepath) 7 / cerebremancer 9 / arch defiler 5 / loremaster 4 / athasian dragon 8
#99 Sysane Dec 15, 2005 19:51:50	Alright how about this for Hamanu then: Hamanu wizard 10 / psychic warrior 11 / cerebermancer 7 / athasian dragon 4 / eldritch knight 4
#100 Pennarin Dec 15, 2005 20:23:25	Dregoth wizard 7/ psion (telepath) 7 / cerebremancer 9 / arch defiler 5 / loremaster 4 / athasian dragon 8 The 4th level of loremaster only gives a bonus language, so you may as well cut it out. Albeit the Classe and PrC boards seem totally convinced the eldritch knight is worthless, for flavor purposes it might be good. Mmmm, i think it would hit harder and better if he had fighter levels, that way he'd get the feats and the BAB as well. The problem with his build is ensuring he gets epic spellcasting, thus CL 21 and 9th-level spells.
#101 Sysane Dec 15, 2005 20:40:38	The 4th level of loremaster only gives a bonus language, so you may as well cut it out. Albeit the Classe and PrC boards seem totally convinced the eldritch knight is worthless, for flavor purposes it might be good. Mmmm, i think it would hit harder and better if he had fighter levels, that way he'd get the feats and the BAB as well. The problem with his build is ensuring he gets epic spellcasting, thus CL 21 and 9th-level spells. So what about this then: Dregoth wizard 7/ psion (telepath) 7 / cerebremancer 9 / arch defiler 5 / archmage 4 / athasian dragon 8 As for the Lion of Urik: Hamanu wizard 10 / psychic warrior 10 / cerebermancer 8 / athasian dragon 4 / eldritch knight 4
#102 Pennarin Dec 15, 2005 21:28:47	So what about this then: Dregoth wizard 7/ psion (telepath) 7 / cerebremancer 9 / arch defiler 5 / archmage 4 / athasian dragon 8 Er, I meant the 4th loremaster level is worthless, not the previous three! The loremaster's ability to get 4 ranks in a skill that you previously don't have would be great to represent Dregoth learning - dare i say - ancient halfing "lifeshaping" knowledge so he could base his dray transformation process on it. As for the Lion of Urik: Hamanu wizard 10 / psychic warrior 10 / cerebermancer 8 / athasian dragon 4 / eldritch knight 4 I guess that works. Its sad though that the militant champions - Hamanu, Dregoth, and Borys - will only get psychic warrior levels, meaning I won't be able to reflect what Hamanu does daily in RaFoaDK...because now he simply doesn't have the powers and the power-levels in question. When we could add lots of levels to the SKs, i would have instead removed the PW levels for psion levels.
#103 Sysane Dec 15, 2005 21:36:09	Er, I meant the 4th loremaster level is worthless, not the previous three! The loremaster's ability to get 4 ranks in a skill that you previously don't have would be great to represent Dregoth learning - dare i say - ancient halfing "lifeshaping" knowledge so he could base his dray transformation process on it.. My bad. I'll change to this then: Dregoth wizard 7/ psion (telepath) 7 / cerebremancer 9 / arch defiler 6 / loremaster 3 / athasian dragon 8 I guess that works. Its sad though that the militant champions - Hamanu, Dregoth, and Borys - will only get psychic warrior levels, meaning I won't be able to reflect what Hamanu does daily in RaFoaDK...because now he simply doesn't have the powers and the power-levels in question. When we could add lots of levels to the SKs, i would have instead removed the PW levels for psion levels. I never understood where people got that Borys and Dregoth were militant warrior types like Hamanu. I guess that it was Borys being granted the Scourge, but why Dregoth?
#104 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Dec 15, 2005 21:58:29	My bad. I'll change to this then: Dregoth wizard 7/ psion (telepath) 7 / cerebremancer 9 / arch defiler 6 / loremaster 3 / athasian dragon 8 I never understood where people got that Borys and Dregoth were militant warrior types like Hamanu. I guess that it was Borys being granted the Scourge, but why Dregoth? I've never said Dregoth. Borys, Hamanu, Myron. Not Dregoth. As I mentioned time and again, those that were granted the swords by Rajaat -- it helps give a reason that they got them, and nobody else. Hell, the ones given the swords weren't even Rajaat's first champions, they weren't his most efficient/best. So why would he give them those swords? Because the swords could be augmenting their martial cababilities maybe? That is why I had proposed, and still stand by that idea. Bear in mind, the Prism Pentad does a rather heavy-handed job portraying Borys as a very militant kind of Champion. Myron we don't have much on, but with Borys having been portrayed as a militant/martial Champion, with Hamanu being the most warlike of the Sorcerer-Kings, it's not hard to place Myron with those two, and it fits, since the Scourge went to Borys, and the Scorcher went to Myron (and later Hamanu). I'd even propose that Irikos was a Psychic Warrior. and Pennarin -- remember, I had the Sorcerer-Kings with their own "Sorcerer-King" template that was the abilities they got from merging with the Living Vortices. In that template, it easily covered everything that Hamanu was doing day-to-day. That template's been voted against in the Epic Bureau, so it won't be official, but expect to see it on my site eventually. Use that for the Sorcerer-Kings, and presto, problem solved.
#105 ruhl-than_sage Dec 15, 2005 22:00:35	That could be said and justified for any PrC and its abilities. Yet again, by following that rationale we risk making the SKs nothing more than unimaginative clones of one another. Even if they had the exact same skill points and feats (Which I'm sure they wont), their individual stories and personalities would make them more than carbon copies of each other. Claiming that characters are carbon copies of each other just because they have the same class levels is like claiming all fighter are alike. Their individual skill, spell, powers (and Discipline in the case of psion), and feat selections will help to differentiate them from each other as will their actual personalities, appearances, and equipment. Besides even with your amended suggestions (which seem to be showing general approval) they don't have exactly the same class selections.
#106 squidfur- Dec 15, 2005 22:53:22	I've never said Dregoth. Borys, Hamanu, Myron. Not Dregoth. Yes, Dregoth. The description of the four militaristic minded champions, Borys, Hamanu, Dregoth, and Pennarin, comes from RaFoaDK. In that novel Dregoth is described as weilding a huge maul as his weapon of choice, and uses it to good effect in the battle against Rajaat. Note - Hamanu would have replace Myron as one of the four.
#107 jon_oracle_of_athas Dec 16, 2005 1:13:02	Regarding the maul, I'm still debating with myself whether to include it in DA or not. It's not in the original manuscript, and odds are Dregoth would be a natural attack horror without it.
#108 ruhl-than_sage Dec 16, 2005 2:57:07	Regarding the maul, I'm still debating with myself whether to include it in DA or not. It's not in the original manuscript, and odds are Dregoth would be a natural attack horror without it. Well, whether he used it in the battle against Rajaat or not, I don't think he would continue to wield it considering his advanced draconic form. At the time of the revolt, whether you subscribe to the theory that Dregoth developed the dragon metamorphsis or not, he wouldn't have had anything much in the way of natural attacks like he does now. Considering that, it might have made sense for him to have a giant maul at the time, but would be almost entirely pointless now. Still, if he does spend any significant amount of time in a humaniod form, he might still put that giant maul to use. From his characterization in City by the Silt Sea however, I don't think he has too much interest in humaniod forms anymore. His belief in the superiority of his draconic form is so strong, that he created a new race in his own image so to speak. Talk about a God complex! IMO, you might as well include it, but note that Dregoth vastly prefers his draconic form, and only uses the Maul in the very rare instances when he adopts a humaniod form (such as when he's traveling the planes perhaps?).
#109 zombiegleemax Dec 16, 2005 6:53:53	Dregoth's forms of choice number two: the illusion of a fully alive 29th-level dragon (and not a mobile rotting corpse of one), and a humanoid second-generation dray. HUMANOID. that's a form that would use a weapon.
#110 Sysane Dec 16, 2005 8:05:28	Yes, Dregoth. The description of the four militaristic minded champions, Borys, Hamanu, Dregoth, and Pennarin, comes from RaFoaDK. In that novel Dregoth is described as weilding a huge maul as his weapon of choice, and uses it to good effect in the battle against Rajaat. Note - Hamanu would have replace Myron as one of the four. As far as I know, Athas.org isn't or hasn't been basing anything off RaFoaDK for any of its gaming supplements.
#111 Sysane Dec 16, 2005 8:27:14	I forgot poor old Daskinor. Here how I would level him. Daskinor wizard 11 / psion (telepath) 8 / wilder 4 / cerebremancer 6 / arch defiler 3 / athasian dragon 2
#112 nytcrawlr Dec 16, 2005 8:29:13	Yes, Dregoth. The description of the four militaristic minded champions, Borys, Hamanu, Dregoth, and Pennarin, comes from RaFoaDK. In that novel Dregoth is described as weilding a huge maul as his weapon of choice, and uses it to good effect in the battle against Rajaat. Damn I need to read that book again. I don't remember the maul at all, or that he was characterized as a militaristic minded champion.
#113 flip Dec 16, 2005 8:39:10	I actually had at one time considered using the War Mind in lieu of using the Psychic Warrior class for him, if it wasn't for the fact that the War Mind can only learn 5th level powers. If it could learn 6th level powers, it would be perfect for Hamanu's psionic progression. I've not done any digging on this, but is there an OGC feat that allows a manifester to learn a level higher in psionic powers than he or she normally could? Even if it was just 1 more power at level 6, that would qualify, in my book for Hamanu. ... Don't think so. Epic Expanded Knowledge only allows you to learn a new power up to your maximimum manifester level.
#114 the_peacebringer Dec 16, 2005 9:24:31	I wouldn't see Lalali-Puy as a cleric or a druid. She's no ecologist. Whoever came up with the ranger levels for the Oba, that correlates quite well with the hunting aspect of Gulg's culture and could aid explaining the importance of the Red Moon Hunt. Perhaps it is in memory of the hunt of her assigned race. Just speculation on my part. The hunting tribes were probably there long before her, she just used their beliefs to make herself a "goddess". I don't think she should have ranger levels anymore than the other SKs.
#115 kalthandrix Dec 16, 2005 11:12:07	I forgot poor old Daskinor. Here how I would level him. Daskinor wizard 11 / psion (telepath) 8 / wilder 4 / cerebremancer 6 / arch defiler 3 / athasian dragon 2 I would like to see Daskinor with more (W8/P4) or all wilder levels instead- just to kind of follow the conversations from here on the board and to provide some varience between the SKs. I promise to have a revised version (40th level) of Dregoth out this weekend [cross fingers and prey]. I will rebuild him based off of Sysane's progression. I will also most likely have two versions of Borys coming out soon (a 50ish and 70th level).
#116 Sysane Dec 16, 2005 11:34:39	I would like to see Daskinor with more (W8/P4) or all wilder levels instead- just to kind of follow the conversations from here on the board and to provide some varience between the SKs. If I go wizard 8 he'd never make the requirements to cast the first metamorphosis spell. I could up his level in cerebrmanace but don't feel thats the route to go (I hate that I had to dump a bunch of levels of that PrC in all the SKs). As for pumping all levels in wilder, I thought about it, but felt his decent into madness was best reflected by having him turn from psion to wilder. Thats just my opinion though. People are free to do what they want. I was just giving my input.
#117 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Dec 16, 2005 13:02:03	... Don't think so. Epic Expanded Knowledge only allows you to learn a new power up to your maximimum manifester level. That's what I was afraid of. I was thinking that maybe Rajaat had "gifted" him with the ability to learn a level higher, but I think that's stretching it a lot.
#118 Pennarin Dec 16, 2005 13:13:49	Regarding the maul, I'm still debating with myself whether to include it in DA or not. It's not in the original manuscript, and odds are Dregoth would be a natural attack horror without it. I'd say do not include it. There is a certain size after which wielding weapons is kinda laughable. A giant 20+ ft. long sword is ridiculous, so would a maul. Besides, like you say, we all know he's good, if not better, with his natural attacks anyway.
#119 Pennarin Dec 16, 2005 13:18:14	Damn I need to read that book again. I don't remember the maul at all, or that he was characterized as a militaristic minded champion. IIRC, the champions decided who would do what during the rebellion. Most would provide magical and psionic interference, allowing a fighting chance for others to get near enough to Rajaat to physically take him out: Borys who would strike at the chest, Hamanu at the gut, and Dregoth at the head, with the maul. They did, Rajaat died, and then promptly started to regenerate, unstoppably.
#120 Pennarin Dec 16, 2005 13:26:59	I wouldn't see Lalali-Puy as a cleric or a druid. She's no ecologist. ...and she's a defiler, which is a big no-no for spirits of the land (remember the pact of EAFW ?) or for elemental powers (the purveyors of said pact of EAFW). Whoever came up with the ranger levels for the Oba, that correlates quite well with the hunting aspect of Gulg's culture and could aid explaining the importance of the Red Moon Hunt. Perhaps it is in memory of the hunt of her assigned race. Just speculation on my part. The hunting tribes were probably there long before her, she just used their beliefs to make herself a "goddess". I don't think she should have ranger levels anymore than the other SKs. Besides, doesn't the fluff for the ranger say that its power can come from either an elemental plane or from minor spirits of the land? This would make the ranger class as innaccessible to a defiler dragon as the cleric or druid classes mentionned above.
#121 Pennarin Dec 16, 2005 13:33:08	That's what I was afraid of. I was thinking that maybe Rajaat had "gifted" him with the ability to learn a level higher, but I think that's stretching it a lot. This feels like stretching for some, to me it doesn't, far from. After reading RaFoaDK, I believe that Rajaat could know an epic spell (whose casting is only possible in the Pristine Tower) that transfers XP and knowledge, basically you use it to transfer XP to another, confering upon him levels in any of the classes you personnaly have levels in, basically building a character from the ground up. Manu is a simple commoner/warrior when he enters the Steeple of Crystals chamber, and comes out a 30+ level character.
#122 jon_oracle_of_athas Dec 16, 2005 14:12:11	Besides, doesn't the fluff for the ranger say that its power can come from either an elemental plane or from minor spirits of the land? This would make the ranger class as innaccessible to a defiler dragon as the cleric or druid classes mentionned above. No, just as ordinary rangers would leech energy from the minor spirits of the land too weak to resist, so would the Oba. I think some ranger levels give her another angle of hunting her designated race than the others had, a more hands-on approach.
#123 jon_oracle_of_athas Dec 16, 2005 14:13:40	This feels like stretching for some, to me it doesn't, far from. After reading RaFoaDK, I believe that Rajaat could know an epic spell (whose casting is only possible in the Pristine Tower) that transfers XP and knowledge, basically you use it to transfer XP to another, confering upon him levels in any of the classes you personnaly have levels in, basically building a character from the ground up. Manu is a simple commoner/warrior when he enters the Steeple of Crystals chamber, and comes out a 30+ level character. And this isn't stretching it? :P
#124 Pennarin Dec 16, 2005 15:28:44	And this isn't stretching it? :P You know of another way to emulate Hamanu's change in RaF? ;) No, just as ordinary rangers would leech energy from the minor spirits of the land too weak to resist, so would the Oba. I think some ranger levels give her another angle of hunting her designated race than the others had, a more hands-on approach. So...i gather you're ok with allowing a defiler to take ranger levels, and thus be able to cast a lot of the same spells a druid can, spells which are given to the druid by his Spirit of the Land? If the ranger can control plants, order them around, draw strength from the land, even though he's a defiler, than what's the point of all of it? A ranger can steal nature's powers to better destroy her. Ex-Druids A druid who becomes something other than a defiler keeps his powers and spells, unless he grossly violates his former oath. Druids who become wizards, however, lose all druidic abilities and spells if they defile. A druid that becomes an undead (mindless or free-willed) loses all his druid abilities and spells. Rangers Good rangers tend to hate defilers, although many rangers are ignorant of the distinction between preserving and defiling and hate wizards of all stripes.
#125 nytcrawlr Dec 16, 2005 15:45:58	Yet one more reason to just not have spellcasting Rangers in DS. ;)
#126 jon_oracle_of_athas Dec 16, 2005 16:15:29	So...i gather you're ok with allowing a defiler to take ranger levels, and thus be able to cast a lot of the same spells a druid can, spells which are given to the druid by his Spirit of the Land? A ranger is not synonymous with a wilderness protector, e.g. a combat-oriented druid. Does Kass Pahr for example strike you as a combat-oriented druid type? Further, a spell list nothing unique, and a ranger has access to only a small portion of what you would call druid spells - and in fact many ranger spells appear on other spellcasting class lists, not just the druid list. If the ranger can control plants, order them around, draw strength from the land, even though he's a defiler, than what's the point of all of it? A ranger can steal nature's powers to better destroy her. I personally don't have a problem with that. Most abilities are neutral, it depends on how you use them that determines your morals (I've played a paladin/rogue once, to illustrate this example). Ex-Druids A druid who becomes something other than a defiler keeps his powers and spells, unless he grossly violates his former oath. Druids who become wizards, however, lose all druidic abilities and spells if they defile. A druid that becomes an undead (mindless or free-willed) loses all his druid abilities and spells. Lalali-Puy could have been a ranger prior to being taught magic by Rajaat - that doesn't mean she loses access to all her abilities tied to that class - but I can lean towards not allowing her to cast ranger spells since she is a defiler and the source of the spells is the same as a druid's. Most of her other class features would remain. Good rangers tend to hate defilers, although many rangers are ignorant of the distinction between preserving and defiling and hate wizards of all stripes. These are stereotypes, and there are always exceptions. Take Pavek for example - not your average templar. In my opinion, a templar/druid is no stranger phenomenon than a ranger/defiler.
#127 jon_oracle_of_athas Dec 16, 2005 16:17:08	Yet one more reason to just not have spellcasting Rangers in DS. That ex-druid paragraph was actually written at the time the athasian ranger was a non-caster, IIRC.
#128 kalthandrix Dec 17, 2005 1:35:26	Personally I wouls like to see Athas.org go in the direction of no spells for rangers- even if it was only an optional rule in one of the Behind the Veil. Now as for the stats of the SKs' - I am working on the Dregoth version 2 and I was wondering something about the application of the CoR - the ability and skill bumps that were left off - I believe it was Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +4, Con +4, Int +4, Wis +8, Cha +8. Skills: Champions of Rajaat have a +8 racial bonus on Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive and Spot checks. Well these items are sort of important to the build- mostly the Int as it effects the skill point accumulation. Any chance I could get a yes or no on if these numbers will appear in the final (or next) version of the CoR. The only reason I posted this here is that it does apply to the SK's stats- Thanks all- v2 is going well and could be out Saturday sometime. :D
#129 jon_oracle_of_athas Dec 17, 2005 4:32:02	Well these items are sort of important to the build- mostly the Int as it effects the skill point accumulation. Any chance I could get a yes or no on if these numbers will appear in the final (or next) version of the CoR. The only reason I posted this here is that it does apply to the SK's stats- Thanks all- v2 is going well and could be out Saturday sometime. From the revised template: Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +4, Con +4, Int +4, Wis +4, Cha +4. Revised CoR template and dragon rules should be up on the athas.org site in a couple of days.
#130 Sysane Dec 17, 2005 9:13:01	These are stereotypes, and there are always exceptions. Take Pavek for example - not your average templar. In my opinion, a templar/druid is no stranger phenomenon than a ranger/defiler. I don't know. I'd imagine that there's a huge difference in being a divine caster that gets his spells from a defiler than actualy being the defiler themselves.
#131 kalthandrix Dec 17, 2005 16:23:11	From the revised template: Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +4, Con +4, Int +4, Wis +4, Cha +4. Revised CoR template and dragon rules should be up on the athas.org site in a couple of days. Sweet! Dude! Sweet! Dude!
#132 kalthandrix Dec 18, 2005 8:55:59	Posted a new version of the Dread King - Sysane's suggested levels were used and I think it turned out well. One thing I did note while doing this (and also said on my Dregoth thread) is that looking at the PrC now, I would opt to remove the Loremaster PrC and replace it with Archmage. I think that would make him stand out more from the other SK's- Here are some of my suggestions for the remaining SK's Lalali-Puy- Ranger (or Rogue) 4/ Defiler 8/ Psion (egoist) 7/ Arch Defiler 5/ Cerebremancer 7/ Athasian Dragon 4 Daskinor- Wilder 12/ Defiler 8/ Arch Defiler 3/ Cerebremancer 7/ Athasian Dragon 3 Hamanu- Fighter 4/ Defiler 9/ Psion (egoist) 5/ Eldritch Knight 4/ Cerebremancer 10/ Athasian Dragon 6 Nibenay- Defiler 5/ Psion (shaper) 9/ Arch Defiler 2/ Loremaster 6/ Cerebremancer 6/ Shadow Wizard 4/ Athasian Dragon 3 Oronis- Preserver 13/ Psion (seer) 10/ Cerebremancer 10/ Avangion PrC 7
#133 squidfur- Dec 19, 2005 1:23:36	Up way too late for this, so I haven't checked the level requirements, but I've had an idea for Dregoth's build. Basically we need two things...err well three... 1) manifester ability 2) spellcasting ability and if you subscribe to Lynn Abbey's line of thought about him being one of the more militaristic Champions 3) some decent combat/warfare ability for his manifesting abilities: I decided that I didn't like the feel of the cerebremancer for Dregoth after all, and thought to go with a more singular approach. So, ideally, I'd go with Xlor's old idea of having him be an erudite, except I'm pretty sure that's not OGC. Instead, I'd go with either a psychic warrior, prefurably, or settle for him being a psion (egoist). Psychic warrior fits for the combat ability, but if not, I'd just go for him being an egoist with a couple levels of fighter. as for his spellcasting abilities: I'd go with a wizard (defiler) of at least 7th level to meet the prereqs for being a loremaster. I'd possibly add a few levels of either arch-mage or arch-defiler (haven't looked at either to remember enough as of right now). so we're looking at something like: psychic warrior 16/ wizard (defiler) 7/ loremaster 10 (or so)/arch-(defiler or mage) X or fighter 5?/ psion (egoist) 11/ wizard (defiler) 7/ loremaster 10 (or so)/arch-(defiler or mage) X edit: forgot I also thought to include a few levels of aristocrat
#134 Pennarin Dec 19, 2005 3:58:56	for his manifesting abilities: I decided that I didn't like the feel of the cerebremancer for Dregoth after all, and thought to go with a more singular approach. So, ideally, I'd go with Xlor's old idea of having him be an erudite, except I'm pretty sure that's not OGC. Instead, I'd go with either a psychic warrior, prefurably, or settle for him being a psion (egoist). Psychic warrior fits for the combat ability, but if not, I'd just go for him being an egoist with a couple levels of fighter. as for his spellcasting abilities: I'd go with a wizard (defiler) of at least 7th level to meet the prereqs for being a loremaster. I'd possibly add a few levels of either arch-mage or arch-defiler (haven't looked at either to remember enough as of right now). so we're looking at something like: psychic warrior 16/ wizard (defiler) 7/ loremaster 10 (or so)/arch-(defiler or mage) X or fighter 5?/ psion (egoist) 11/ wizard (defiler) 7/ loremaster 10 (or so)/arch-(defiler or mage) X Loremaster? The only place where we gather details about Hamanu's personality, how he does things, is in RaFoaDK, and there even though his knowledge of the past is impressive the reader gathers that its dwarfed by that of Borys, Dregoth, and Nibenay, the most knowledgeable of the champions. Hamanu is knowlwedgeable only because he has lived for thousands of years, interrogated thousands of sages - tortured lots of them -, stolen info right out of people's heads, and read all volumes and scraps of paper he ever came across. Loremaster is good for Dregoth to account for his whole lifeshaping/dray thing, and for Nibenay to explain his Naggaramakam fixation. Hamanu is not a professional defiler either, he loathes the thing. Yeah, he uses defiling causes its kick ass, but he prefers psionics because its clean, no hassle. Hamanu is just really a very capable, very smart warrior. Oh yeah, and with kick-ass arcane and psionic powers. And btw, psion (egoist) is a very good choice for him. It allows him to reach 9th level powers, which is what matters really. To be stuck at 6th and yet be somehow able to do what he does in the novels was stretching it (to quote Jon ;) )
#135 squidfur- Dec 19, 2005 8:15:47	Loremaster? The only place where we gather details about Hamanu's personality, how he does things, is in RaFoaDK, and there even though his knowledge of the past is impressive the reader gathers that its dwarfed by that of Borys, Dregoth, and Nibenay, the most knowledgeable of the champions. Hamanu is knowlwedgeable only because he has lived for thousands of years, interrogated thousands of sages - tortured lots of them -, stolen info right out of people's heads, and read all volumes and scraps of paper he ever came across. Loremaster is good for Dregoth to account for his whole lifeshaping/dray thing, and for Nibenay to explain his Naggaramakam fixation. Hamanu is not a professional defiler either, he loathes the thing. Yeah, he uses defiling causes its kick ass, but he prefers psionics because its clean, no hassle. Hamanu is just really a very capable, very smart warrior. Oh yeah, and with kick-ass arcane and psionic powers. And btw, psion (egoist) is a very good choice for him. It allows him to reach 9th level powers, which is what matters really. To be stuck at 6th and yet be somehow able to do what he does in the novels was stretching it (to quote Jon ;) ) Uhhh.....hey Penn, you might want to read who my post is about again :P .
#136 Pennarin Dec 19, 2005 13:44:48	Uhhh.....hey Penn, you might want to read who my post is about again :P . Man, I swear I read Hamanu before! Grumble grumble... Sorry for the long post on absolutely nothing!