Honestly, I think if the PCs even want to kill the Lady of Pain the DM has done something wrong. She shouldn't seem like an antagonist, or even a person.
The PCs should be frightened of The Lady, even at the slightest -hint- of Her involvement in something, even if they have never even personally seen The Lady do so much as float down a street and vanish into thin air.
If the PCs are walking about actually considering an attempt kill The Lady and take her stuff, so to speak, you as a DM either need to get new players or you've botched something fierce.
Honestly, I think if the PCs even want to kill the Lady of Pain the DM has done something wrong. She shouldn't seem like an antagonist, or even a person.
While I do agree, I have, from time to time, been intrigued by the possibilities of what type of weapons could be crafted from the head blades of the "fallen" Lady of Pain...
My platers heard of the Lady for nearly all of the Planescape campaign and only saw her once... and by then, they knew to remove themselves from the location they were in VERY quickly.
Yup, 3 years of hints, and they screamed like little... erm... mephits.
I haven't read the adventure but didn't 'Die, Vecna, Die!' have something about Vecna destroying the Lady of Pain as one of the possible endings?
Keep in mind the module trashed Planescape, and its contents don't appear to have carried over in terms of DnD continuity in the slightest. They've ignored that it ever happened, even in places where it would have been relevant to reference it.
But no, the module didn't have Vecna destroying the Lady. It did however have The Lady rewriting the multiverse, or destroying Vecna (and the multiverse as a side effect), or allowing gods into Sigil to destroy Vecna without her having to destroy the multiverse in the process. It was poorly conceived, but Ravenloft got punked in the module even more than PS.
Well can she?
It's a little difficult to kill a concept, but I guess it can be done. The only thing that can't be killed is something that isn't alive, and in fantasy even that is debatable. ;)
The Lady seems to be on top of things according to sources, so you'll have to houserule a weakness to topple her of her throne I'm afraid.
The Sigil collapses into the spire...
The outlands loose stability...
The fabric of all the outer planes rips asunder sending everything into a void...
Game over... "oops" (imagine seeing a poster of that with the caption "Oh $%!#")
Now roll new characters, Level 1 and 3d4 stats this time.
I had a character who tried to become a champion of the Lady....just about ended up in my own maze for THAT.
analogy: Its like a couple of children in their mothers kitchen trying to devise a plan to over -thow their matron while she sepperates their dirty laundry. not likely to succeed.
No, NOT having my players kill Her Serenity. I'm not that barmy.
But the Lady expiring from outside causes, at the beginning of the campaign, would unleash a flurry of questions, worries, and activity in the city. What killed her? How? Why? And what now? Are the gods finally able to enter Sigil? Will Fiendish or Celestial armies take the city for their own uses, or will the Factions return? Oh, the possibilities...
If you want to kill the Lady, grab a black marker, your DM's PS books, and cross out her name on every page.
She hates that. It's the only thing that really gets her goat.
She loved that poor ol' goat.
What happens if the Lady where to somehow escape from Sigil? Now theres a massive campaign plot waiting to happen that doesn't involve the lady's death.
See in my head that would not work. Because the Lady and Sigil are inseperable. If She were to leave Sigil (and I see no reason why she would), Sigil would crumble. Portals would collapse, the Spire would come down... all kinda like an armageddon kinda thing.
BUT, just because I think this way doesn't mean it can't happen. ::shruggs::
:D
Unfortunately, the campaign didn't last long enough to find out what had gone wrong. All we found out was that Sigil was empty and apparently the Lady had disappeared. It was much more interesting than 'OMG! i killz teh lady of pane!'
Is the Lady trapped in Sigil, or does she just stay there on her own accord?
They do call it the Cage...
They do call it the Cage...
But even the "Zoo Keeper" must enter the Cage to keep the inhabitants in order.
But on the otherhand, isn't the Lady the Omnipower of the entire Multiverse? Doesn't that mean she is in fact on top of things?
Well I think I can speak for everyone when i say that I wouldn't want to be around when that something actually kills the lady....
But on the otherhand, isn't the Lady the Omnipower of the entire Multiverse? Doesn't that mean she is in fact on top of things?
The Maurya, in their ancient wisdom, speak of many creatures of the wild. Of cobra, cold patient venom and sudden deadliness enscaled. Of buffalo, watchful and placid but never tamed, and unstoppable when roused to anger. Of tiger, quickness and ferocity and midnight fury made flesh. Of shark, terror of the oceans, reaver of bloodlust and moonlight and madness.
And they speak of something greater than any of these, of oliphaunt, great as mountains and as unchallengable. Hide too thick to be pierced by spears, hooves and tusks that end the lives of heroes, a trunk able to deafen whole armies with its trumpet-call. The largest beast ever to walk the earth.
Yet even so mighty a beast as the oliphaunt fears something so tiny and simple as the mouse.
But on the otherhand, isn't the Lady the Omnipower of the entire Multiverse?
I would say no.
If she's an overpower, it's likely she presides over Sigil only, and is as powerless outside her Cage as Ao is outside of his.
I think it's even more likely that she's no overpower at all, and no power either. She isn't merely ambivalent about worship, as overpowers are - she seems to actively hate worship, even fear it.
If she's an overpower, it's likely she presides over Sigil only, and is as powerless outside her Cage as Ao is outside of his.
Yes... her connection to Sigil seems to be something with a much greater (or lesser) depth than a mere relationship between a power and a realm.
I think it's even more likely that she's no overpower at all, and no power either. She isn't merely ambivalent about worship, as overpowers are - she seems to actively hate worship, even fear it.
Fear would be an appropriate response, and seems (as much as anything in the Cage "seems") quite likely, given what we know regarding how she treats those that venerate her in any way, shape, or form.
Perhaps the Lady of Pain is the "zero-sum" game. Her power is severely limited -- so that whatever a worshipper were to gain from actively worshipping her is exactly balanced by the loss of her finite power in relation to the gains of the worshipper.
so, funny thing, who was the one who forged theese rules about her confinement and her powers? Iluvatar?(ok, ignore this, non-Silmarilion readers)
Hmmm... maybe Her Serenity is Iluvatar and the Ainur are actually the dabus, acting as guides and to help Sigil grow. The use their rebus (which are actually derivatives of the Lady's Music of the
Asd...seems unporbable....anyway, wasn't there a novel involving directly the lady( you know, my memory betrays me sometimes...)....or a videogame, or a module.....?
The Lady was written about in Pages of Pain and made an appereance in Die Vecna, Die! and Faction War, I think.
Asd...seems unporbable....anyway, wasn't there a novel involving directly the lady( you know, my memory betrays me sometimes...)....or a videogame, or a module.....?
That would be 'Pages of Pain', not that it (or any of the other PS novels) is considered canonical. It's not a bad novel in terms of the writing, but it doesn't work for being part of PS, and it was a bit of a bad idea to involve The Lady as a true character.
It's worth a read, just don't pay full price for it.
Asd...seems unporbable....
Well, I wasn't speaking from a "canon" standpoint ;).
It was merely a partially digested mental meandering...
That would be 'Pages of Pain', not that it (or any of the other PS novels) is considered canonical. It's not a bad novel in terms of the writing, but it doesn't work for being part of PS, and it was a bit of a bad idea to involve The Lady as a true character.
It's worth a read, just don't pay full price for it.
The Mule rules
Yes... her connection to Sigil seems to be something with a much greater (or lesser) depth than a mere relationship between a power and a realm.
Fear would be an appropriate response, and seems (as much as anything in the Cage "seems") quite likely, given what we know regarding how she treats those that venerate her in any way, shape, or form.
Perhaps the Lady of Pain is the "zero-sum" game. Her power is severely limited -- so that whatever a worshipper were to gain from actively worshipping her is exactly balanced by the loss of her finite power in relation to the gains of the worshipper.
My theory is that she fears becoming a true power, because she would then have to play by the rules of true powers. She would then need worshippers. Sigil could become unbalanced and shift to who knows where. Other dieties might then have the ability to directly intefear with, or even destroy her. Or maybe her own wards (or whatever it is exactly) that keep powers out of the cage would start to work against her.
I'm quite a noob of planescape, but i've been always thinking that the lady is more powerful than gods...
If you walk on the Infinite Staircase, you eventually get led to your heart's desire...but I suspect this isn't so much a goal as the psychological needs that made you desire your concrete goal. If Person A looks for his father, A may not get to him but instead find a father figure. Also, does A want her true father, or the ideal father who would love A and have a good reason for leaving A.
I think there is a way to kill the Lady, but it requires the ability to send a message to anywhere in the Multiverse via the top of Harmonica, Time Travel that is reliable and immune to the Lady's own temporal abilities, and likely the use of that thingie in Harbringer House that allows you to evade the Lady's sight and the tanar'ri god in the printer...
I wonder if the Duke had known about that spell and cast it before he used the Sigil ritual, if he would have been sucessful. Of course, the spell was only meant to reshape the cage. It doesn't really say whether or not the reshaping of the cage would have any effect on the Lady. It might have just ****** her off... more...
There is a spell in the book of keeping that grants success in any venture. all you need is the heart of an archanoloth...Shemmy, is that you volunteering? ;)
Y'know, if that spell actually worked, I suspect Shemeska would've torn out her own heart long ago and used it as a spell component herself. Staying alive sans important vital organs is exactly what spells like regeneration and true resurrection were designed for.
Just about everything inside the Book of Keeping is a lie, a monkey's paw, or simply booby-trapped to explode in your face, berk.
Rather than trying to off the lady, what about trying to turn the Lady into a powerful ally? Imagine what someone could do with someone as powerful as the Lady of Pain on their side, rather than taking Sigil by force, having Sigil without a struggle?
I suspect that the end result of this plan is the same as trying to off the Lady: you see a big floaty woman, then you notice her shadow approaching you, then you find a bunch of blades sticking out of your body from every direction, then you die.
Just about everything inside the Book of Keeping is a lie, a monkey's paw, or simply booby-trapped to explode in your face, berk.
That's not nessesarily true. The Book of Keeping was written about Archanoloths, not by Archanoloths. It contains spells about binding them and contains the true names of many prominent ones. I wouldn't say that it was a book of lies.
As far as being a monkey's paw, well that is what any summoner should expect when he deals with binding any outer-planars. As far as the success spell is concerned, I would say it should be treated much like a wish. It certainly doesn't mean that someone could settle the blood wars simply by casting the spell. Just because success is guantenteed, that doesn't mean the cost won't be great. The key compnent is, after all, the heart of one of the most evil creatures in the multiverse.
I suspect that the end result of this plan is the same as trying to off the Lady: you see a big floaty woman, then you notice her shadow approaching you, then you find a bunch of blades sticking out of your body from every direction, then you die.
I don't know about that. What if you were to help defend Dabus and help the Dabus build the city? Or post a list of flayable and mazable offenses(called the Lady's decree) and place them on every major place of business in the city.
While I do agree, I have, from time to time, been intrigued by the possibilities of what type of weapons could be crafted from the head blades of the "fallen" Lady of Pain...
I think it'd be less, y'know, suicidal, to just grab one from Aoskar's corpse. At least, I seem to remember reading about a rumour about a few of her blades sticking around...
Also, as for the OQ: Yes. Can anyone we know of do it? No.
Im prety sure the lady threw is corpse out on its ear at about mach 80, but that still leaves the point that sigil existed before her intervention, and could exist afterward.
actualy that leaves an interesting plot device..
the few remaining faithful of aoskar manage to ressurect him, and with the power of some ancient artifact, boots the lady out, reclaiming sigil.
The players, on behalf of the lady (and the desire to get her the heck out of their plane), must sneak into sigil and either steal or destroy the artifact so she can retake sigil...
didnt aoskar, the god of portals origionaly hold sigil?
It's possible, but it doesn't say that anywhere. As far as anyone knows for sure, the Lady of Pain has always ruled Sigil. There are no legends in Sigil of a time when she was not there.
There are legend elsewhere of a period she spent on the planes - rumors say she was once the ruler of Plague-Mort, for example, or that she was a reformed Abyssal lord, the daughter of the dragon god Io, or any number of other things, but no evidence for any of them.
We do know that Aoskar was once heavily worshipped in Sigil and was almost certainly killed by the Lady of Pain. We don't know for sure if Aoskar was physically in Sigil at the time this happened, or how long he had been there.
If he wasn't in Sigil there is no way the Lady could touch him correct?
There's not enough information to say for sure. In the Cage said this:
"It’s called the City of Doors ’cause it’s the center of the multiverse, or leastways, a body can get anywhere from here through the city’s portals. It's also called the Cage. Why?
“Sigil’s a cage for everyone: for the celestials, for the fiends, for the tieflings and the Clueless, and for the Lady."
That implies she can't reach outside it, but we don't know she can't, if she really wants to. And things might have been different in the days of Aoskar than they are today.
As I'm sure has been noted before: if The Lady in fact creates the mazes from pieces of the Ethereal, that would suggest she has some ability to interact with the planes beyond Sigil.
As I'm sure has been noted before: if The Lady in fact creates the mazes from pieces of the Ethereal, that would suggest she has some ability to interact with the planes beyond Sigil.
That's true, although it is a relatively new ability (she couldn't make mazes 10,000 years ago).
It's also true that the mazes aren't entirely seperate from Sigil, even though they're in the Ethereal Plane. They're at the same time part of the city and elsewhere, paradoxes like so much else in the setting.
Can an omnipotent being build a cage so secure that even she can't escape from it?
That's true, although it is a relatively new ability (she couldn't make mazes 10,000 years ago).
As I recall, that was an in game rumor, ultimately a popular misconception of events from when millennia ago she didn't maze Darkwood in his Ancient Wizard incarnation, but rather locked him in that gem and tossed him into Pandemonium.
As I recall, that was an in game rumor, ultimately a popular misconception of events from when millennia ago she didn't maze Darkwood in his Ancient Wizard incarnation, but rather locked him in that gem and tossed him into Pandemonium.
It's an accurate conception of events, I think. That's why she didn't maze Darkwood in his Ancient Wizard incarnation. One of the reasons, anyway; there's the whole time loop thing she was prepping for.
The Lady has a very long history of defending herself and her city, using the mazes as the ultimate defense. But Our Lady has not always had access to the mazes, for she once cast pretenders to the Throne of Blades into Agathion, the third layer of Pandemonium.
As I recall, that was an in game rumor, ultimately a popular misconception of events from when millennia ago she didn't maze Darkwood in his Ancient Wizard incarnation, but rather locked him in that gem and tossed him into Pandemonium.
Sorry to go a little off topic...
What's this about a different incarnation of Darkwood? Is this something mentioned in Faction War? (I don't own it, yet.)
I remember reading something in the 3.5 Planar Handbook mentioning the Fated believe in an Acquisitive Heir who embodies their ideals--is Darkwood considered one of these, and this older incarnation being then an older Acquisitive Heir?
What's this about a different incarnation of Darkwood? Is this something mentioned in Faction War? (I don't own it, yet.)
Yes, it's from Faction War.
I remember reading something in the 3.5 Planar Handbook mentioning the Fated believe in an Acquisitive Heir who embodies their ideals--is Darkwood considered one of these, and this older incarnation being then an older Acquisitive Heir?
No, the Acquisitive Heir is a new concept from the Planar Handbook, and didn't exist in Planescape. Rowan Darkwood might have been one, but his older incarnation was not (his older incarnation lived 20,000 years ago or so, and thus predated the Fated).