True Cerebremancer
You have mastered dual paths of power.
Hit Dice: d4
Requirements
Skills: Knowledge Arcana 9 Ranks, Knowledge Psicraft 9 Ranks
Feat: Skill Focus Concentration?
Spells: Must be able to cast level 2 arcane spells
Psionics: Must be able to manifest level 2 powers.
Class Skill: Concentration, Craft, Knowledge (all), Profession,Psicraft,Spellcraft
Skill Points at each level: 2+Int modifier
Class Features
Weapons and Armor: True Cerebremancers gain no proficiency with any weapons, armor, or shield
BAB: As wizard
Saving Throws: As wizard
Spells/Psionics. True Cerebremancers gain all the usual benefits of spells/psionics as they go up in level. Extra PP's, new spells added to spellbook etc.
Level
1. +1 level of existing arcane class
2. +1 level of existing psionic class
3. +1 level of existing arcane class/+1 level of existing psionic class
4. +1 level of existing arcane class/+1 level of existing psionic class
5. +1 level of existing arcane class/+1 level of existing psionic class
6. +1 level of existing arcane class
7. +1 level of existing psionic class
8. +1 level of existing arcane class/+1 level of existing psionic class
9. +1 level of existing arcane class/+1 level of existing psionic class
10. +1 level of existing arcane class/+1 level of existing psionic class
11. +1 level of existing arcane class/+1 level of existing psionic class
12. +1 level of existing arcane class/+1 level of existing psionic class
13. +1 level of existing arcane class/+1 level of existing psionic class
14. +1 level of existing arcane class/+1 level of existing psionic class
Class Features (continued)
Level
1. Bonus Feat
2.
3. Nexus +1
4.
5.
6. Nexus +2
7. Bonus Feat
8.
9. Nexus +3
10.
11.
12. Nexus +4
13. Bonus Feat
14.
Bonus Feat: The bonus feat may be any metamagic or metapsionic feat that the character qualifys for.
Nexus. You have learned to merge your psionic and magical power. Whenever you cast a spell or manifest a power you may add the indicated modifier to any roll to overcome spell resistence or power resistence.
You don't like the cerebremancer because you think it's too focused and underpowerd ... and you proprose replaceing it with a PrC that's even less focused and powered?
The only thing that I can see that you did was make this a 14 level PrC, which is basically a no-no. PrCs don't go past 10th level until epic levels.
Other than that, the Nexus ability merely makes up for one facet of the missing spellcaster level.
Nexus +1 comes in at 3rd level, and grants a +1 to SR/PR checks. Which are based on spellcaster level. At third level, you've granted +2 spellcaster, and +2 manifester levels.
In the cerebremancer, you've gained +3 spellcaster levels, and 3 manifester levels. Yor SR/PR checks are the same as with the nexus ability, but you've got more powers and spells.
It's a slight boost at level 6, and then you break your pattern after that.
They tend to suck hard compared to manifesters/casters of the same ecl. :D
your Wizard 3/Psion 3/TC 19 will still suffer from the Epic Mystic Theurge Sindrome (emts) alternating manifester and caster levels in the epic advancement so this poor soul will have caster level [3+12+3(epic)] 16 by level 25 and, by the same level, manifester level [3+12+2] 15....
It sucks hard to be epic and only cast 8° level spells and manifest 7° level powers, for a caster/manifester build i mean....
What if we add an epic feat, avaible only to advanced beings, that allows to add caster and manifester levels in a single scool of magic?
Thois will mantain the flavour of the old Dragon Kings where only advanced beings could use psionic enchantments and were, by definition, masters of magic unknown to mere mortals, even the ones of similar epic level.
It also uses the mechanic of the old True Necromancer AND permits ulteriorur specializations burning Epic Feats
the main weakness of Advanced Beings si that....
They tend to suck hard compared to manifesters/casters of the same ecl. :D
your Wizard 3/Psion 3/TC 19 will still suffer from the Epic Mystic Theurge Sindrome (emts) alternating manifester and caster levels in the epic advancement so this poor soul will have caster level [3+12+3(epic)] 16 by level 25 and, by the same level, manifester level [3+12+2] 15....
It sucks hard to be epic and only cast 8° level spells and manifest 7° level powers, for a caster/manifester build i mean....
What if we add an epic feat, avaible only to advanced beings, that allows to add caster and manifester levels in a single scool of magic?
Thois will mantain the flavour of the old Dragon Kings where only advanced beings could use psionic enchantments and were, by definition, masters of magic unknown to mere mortals, even the ones of similar epic level.
It also uses the mechanic of the old True Necromancer AND permits ulteriorur specializations burning Epic Feats
Actually, we're doing some revisions to the Dragons, should be out soon, and should help somewhat cope with that debilitating factor you mention. Other Advanced Beings will probably end up with the same kind of set-up.
I never understood why a psionic version of the feat "practiced spellcaster" was never created. That would solve part of these problems.
I thought there was a version - but it was in the 3.o books. The only thing that comes close is this from the SRD- but only effects metapsionic feat costs to powers- but it would allow you to spend the extra you save on augmenting the power but...
IMPROVED METAPSIONICS [EPIC, PSIONIC]
You can manifest powers using metapsionic feats more easily than normal.
Prerequisites: Character level 21st, four metapsionic feats, Psicraft 30 ranks.
Benefit: Metapsionic powers you manifest cost 2 power points less than normal (to a minimum of 1 power point).
This feat has no effect on metapsionic powers that inflate the cost by only 2 power points.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. The effects stack, though you can’t lower the cost of any metapsionic
power to less than 1 power point.
Now I did propose a feat- Erudit Lore, that would give one a few additional skill points and also a +2 to either a spellcasting or manifesting class that would stack together- but I do not think I got much feedback on it.
Actually, we're doing some revisions to the Dragons, should be out soon, and should help somewhat cope with that debilitating factor you mention. Other Advanced Beings will probably end up with the same kind of set-up.
Actually, Your crew is doing really a great job at capturing the unique flawor we all known and loved in Dark Sun! :D
please note that the otherwise astonishing Kalthandrix's Dregoth, under the current rules (and assuming he chose to advance equalli caster and manifester levels trpug Dragon Prc and assuming classes are stated by cronological entry), only has a:
caster level of 30
Psion -/ Defiler +10/ Cerebremancer +5/ Arch Mage +5/ Loremaster +10/ Dragon +5
and a manifester level of 20
Psion 10/ Defiler -/ Cerebremancer +5/ Arch Mage -/ Loremaster -/ Dragon +5
adding the Kaisharga template, his ECL goes to 61 but in the improbable encounter with a comparable Epic critter, say an HECATONCHEIRES (callange rating 57), the Dread King of Giustenal will find impossible to penetrate the SR 70 the SRD states for this extradimensinal horror.
Now let's try my idea...
Dregoth being the villan he is, will take the feat "Psionic Enchantment Nexus(Evocation)" and with an adjusted caster level of 50 and a cuple of objects will do a decent blasting job.
I never understood why a psionic version of the feat "practiced spellcaster" was never created. That would solve part of these problems.
A good start, but it is sill a palliative, we need IMHO a strongher medicine:
why not try:
PSIONIC ENCHANTMENT NEXUS [EPIC, PSIONIC]
Prerequisites: Advanced Being, Psicraft 25 ranks.
Benefit: You can add caster and manifester levels regarding all the mechanics of a school of magic of your choice.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you have to chose a diffent scool of magic.
I never did got with even distribution of the CL/ML to Dregoth as I see him most as a wizard.
I am glad you like the version of Dregoth- which by the way is only version 1- I have posted a version 2 that is 40th level.
I never did got with even distribution of the CL/ML to Dregoth as I see him most as a wizard.
Yup i've taken the ecl 61 version only 'cause it made more evident my point, yet, with a more wizard oriented distribuition (that i subscribe given the nature of our friendly Dread King ) we can gain another 5 caster levels (Dragons an chose what to advance even in Epic wile Cerebromancers can not)
caster level of 35
Psion -/ Defiler +10/ Cerebremancer +5/ Arch Mage +5/ Loremaster +10/ Dragon +10
and a manifester level of 15
Psion 10/ Defiler -/ Cerebremancer +5/ Arch Mage -/ Loremaster -/ Dragon -
What do You think of my idea of a PSIONIC ENCHANTMENT NEXUS feat?
Actually, Your crew is doing really a great job at capturing the unique flawor we all known and loved in Dark Sun! :D
please note that the otherwise astonishing Kalthandrix's Dregoth, under the current rules (and assuming he chose to advance equalli caster and manifester levels trpug Dragon Prc and assuming classes are stated by cronological entry), only has a:
caster level of 30
Psion -/ Defiler +10/ Cerebremancer +5/ Arch Mage +5/ Loremaster +10/ Dragon +5
and a manifester level of 20
Psion 10/ Defiler -/ Cerebremancer +5/ Arch Mage -/ Loremaster -/ Dragon +5
adding the Kaisharga template, his ECL goes to 61 but in the improbable encounter with a comparable Epic critter, say an HECATONCHEIRES (callange rating 57), the Dread King of Giustenal will find impossible to penetrate the SR 70 the SRD states for this extradimensinal horror.
Now let's try my idea...
Dregoth being the villan he is, will take the feat "Psionic Enchantment Nexus(Evocation)" and with an adjusted caster level of 50 and a cuple of objects will do a decent blasting job.
Interesting, however there is no reason to assume that he'd have an equal development in Psion and Defiler, in fact, one would most likely set him up as more of a Wizard than a Psion; there is nothing in the Dragon rules that states a person has to equally distribute the two. Now... what I was mentioning before, is that we're looking at making a change where the Dragon gets +1 effective spellcaster level AND +1 effective manifester level at each level. The difference between "effective spellcaster level" and "spellcaster level" is that the individual does not increase the number of spells known, only the spellcaster level for purposes of Spell Resistance, and spell attributes relying on spellcaster level. Same for manifester level.
So, a Dragon who has the "vanilla" set-up like the following: 17 Defiler/11 Psion/8 Dragon, would then have an effective spellcaster level of 17 + 8, or 25. He'd have an effective manifester level of 11 + 8, or 19. However, he'd not have learned any new arcane spells at any higher levels than he already could, and he has not learned any new psionic powers either. If he can only use 6th level powers, then adding to his effective manifester level will not suddenly make him be able to learn any more -- I do believe that he can use more power points per day, and the powers with attributes based off of manifester level would be affected.
This does tend to make getting more levels in your base spellcasting/manifesting classes much more useful, especially if you want to advance and learn new powers/power levels, have more spells and power points per day, etc.
So, a Dragon who has the "vanilla" set-up like the following: 17 Defiler/11 Psion/8 Dragon, would then have an effective spellcaster level of 17 + 8, or 25. He'd have an effective manifester level of 11 + 8, or 19. However, he'd not have learned any new arcane spells at any higher levels than he already could, and he has not learned any new psionic powers either. If he can only use 6th level powers, then adding to his effective manifester level will not suddenly make him be able to learn any more -- I do believe that he can use more power points per day, and the powers with attributes based off of manifester level would be affected.
How would this mechanic work with meta magic and (more importantly) meta psionic feats?
How would this mechanic work with meta magic and (more importantly) meta psionic feats?
The "effective manifester level" would be the cap for how many points you can spend on a power for augmentation and metapsionic feats.
The "effective manifester level" would be the cap for how many points you can spend on a power for augmentation and metapsionic feats.
You might want to consider some balance issue with that. This mechanic looks to work along the same lines as the practiced spell feat. That feat only allows a caster to scale up the in regards to level based effects. It doesn't factor in for meta magic feats. Look at this in a low level example.
A 1st level psion/2nd level rogue with empower power with and psionic version of the practiced spellcaster feat would get two more manifester levels. Since empower power uses two extra power points you could spend three power points and empower a 1st level psionic power if you allowed the "practiced manifester" feat to increase manifester level in this way.
Let's compare that to a 1st level wizard/2nd level rogue with the empower spell feat who has the practiced spellcaster feat. They would NOT be able to empower a magic missile since that would add 2 levels to the spell and this spellcaster doesn't have access to 3rd level spells.
This maybe a case of comparing apples to oranges due to this being a low concern vs a high level, but I still think its something that should be considered for this mechanic.
I never understood why a psionic version of the feat "practiced spellcaster" was never created. That would solve part of these problems.
Consult the psionics board, you'll see the arguments they use against a straight conversion.
Now... what I was mentioning before, is that we're looking at making a change where the Dragon gets +1 effective spellcaster level AND +1 effective manifester level at each level. The difference between "effective spellcaster level" and "spellcaster level" is that the individual does not increase the number of spells known, only the spellcaster level for purposes of Spell Resistance, and spell attributes relying on spellcaster level. Same for manifester level.
Cool- I think that this will go a long way toward ending these types of debates. I think that most people are looking at this in the 'glass is half empty' mind set. Everyone should remember that not only do the dragon have magic but they also have psionics- and with Athas.org taking the stance that magic/psionics are different this is a huge thing.
For instance- If I were running an encounter where the PCs were going to be fighting Nibenay (just for arguments sake)- I would have him cast or manifest either an Antimagic Shell and blast the now magically crippled PC's with psionics, or I would use Null-psionic Field and raze them with my dragon magic. I would also use feats like Automatic Quicken Spell and Multispell with Duplex to enable me to cast up to three spells in one round- and using the dragon magic which is not reduced be DR or resistances.
Another important thing to remember- these SK's will almost never be able to be caught alone- they have hordes of spellcasting followers that will use up your resources as you try to get to him. Add to this the fact that all of the SK's most likely have urber-super intelligence scores- they will almost always have a plan of escape if they are truly threatened.
Consult the psionics board, you'll see the arguments they use against a straight conversion.
I would think the biggest concern would be the meta magic/meta psionic example I gave above. ;)
Well, I agree that it's an "apples and oranges" comparison as far as comparison with the feat goes. I would instead compare it to a dual-progression prestige class like cerebremancer or mystic theurge. It works exactly the same as one of those classes, except that you don't get additional spells per day, power points, known powers or learn new spells, nor does you gain any other benefit a character of those classes would have gained. You just gain an increase in effective caster/manifester level. This enables the class to progress both effective caster and manifester level simultaneously, while still allowing for the addition of other class features (psionic enchantments etc). It is indeed a balance issue, but one that keeps the class balanced, rather than unbalancing it. As far as pure spellcasting/manifesting progression goes, the class is actually weaker than the cerebremancer, but makes up for this with the dragon-specific class benefits like psionic enchantment.
Not to be a dink (yes I said dink!), but it sounds like the practiced spellcaster feat except that it effects both caster and manifester levels at every level of the PrC.
Not to be a dink (yes I said dink!), but it sounds like the practiced spellcaster feat except that it effects both caster and manifester levels at every level of the PrC.
Fair enough, but the issue is how it balances against other prestige classes, not feats. Apples and oranges, like you said
.Fair enough, but the issue is how it balances against other prestige classes, not feats. Apples and oranges, like you said
Good point. Either way, I like the mechanic. ;)
Practiced Manifester
Choose a manifesting class that you possess. Your spells cast from that class are more powerful.
Prerequisite: Psicraft 4 ranks
Benefits: Your manifester level for the choosen class increases by +2. This increase cannot increase your caster level beyond your HD and you must have two manifester levels in the manifesting class for each bonus manifester level gained. However, even if you can't benefit from the full bonus immediately, if you later gainmore HD you may be able to apply the rest of the bonus.
For example, a dwarven 3rd level Pyschic Warrior/1st level Fighter who selects this feat would increase his manifester level from 3rd to 4th (since he has 4 HD and only 3 manifester levels from Pyschic Warrior). In order to gain the second bonus in manifester level, he would need to gain both another level in Psychic Warrior and another level in a different class.
A character with two or more manifesting classes (such as a Psion/Wilder, or Pyshic Warrior/Psion) must choose which class gains the feats effects.
This does not effect your power point totals, or powers known. It only increases your manifester level, which would help you penetrate PR, increase duration, and powerup other effects of your powers or apply metapsionic feats.
Alternately, you could have the feat read the same as Practised Spellcaster, but make the stipulation that the added manifester levels cannot be used to apply metapsionic feats, but that can cause some issues of arbitration.
Considering the greater power that a practiced manifester feat, perhaps it should not grant it bonuses as easily. The following idea is unconventional, but seems balanced to me.
Practiced Manifester
Choose a manifesting class that you possess. Your spells cast from that class are more powerful.
Prerequisite: Psicraft 4 ranks
Benefits: Your manifester level for the choosen class increases by +2. This increase cannot increase your caster level beyond your HD and you must have two manifester levels in the manifesting class for each bonus manifester level gained. However, even if you can't benefit from the full bonus immediately, if you later gainmore HD you may be able to apply the rest of the bonus.
For example, a dwarven 3rd level Pyschic Warrior/1st level Fighter who selects this feat would increase his manifester level from 3rd to 4th (since he has 4 HD and only 3 manifester levels from Pyschic Warrior). In order to gain the second bonus in manifester level, he would need to gain both another level in Psychic Warrior and another level in a different class.
A character with two or more manifesting classes (such as a Psion/Wilder, or Pyshic Warrior/Psion) must choose which class gains the feats effects.
This does not effect your power point totals, or powers known. It only increases your manifester level, which would help you penetrate PR, increase duration, and powerup other effects of your powers or apply metapsionic feats.
Alternately, you could have the feat read the same as Practised Spellcaster, but make the stipulation that the added manifester levels cannot be used to apply metapsionic feats, but that can cause some issues of arbitration.
You would also need to have it that the bonus manifester levels only allow you to spend further power points for augmentation not for meta psionic feats.
You would also need to have it that the bonus manifester levels only allow you to spend further power points for augmentation not for meta psionic feats.
Why? The problems with arbitrating that issue is why I didn't, and also why I put greater restriction on other aspects of the feat's power.
The problem is that you get into minutae at that point...... I suppose if it makes you happy I can try again
Practiced Manifester
Choose a manifesting class that you possess. Your spells cast from that class are more powerful.
Prerequisite: Psicraft 4 ranks
Benefits: Your effective manifester level for the choosen class increases by +4. This increase cannot increase your caster level beyond your HD, nor can it more than double your manifester level. However, even if you can't benefit from the full bonus immediately, if you later gain more HD you may be able to apply the rest of the bonus.
For example, a dwarven 3rd level Psychic Warrior/2nd level Fighter who selects this feat would increase his manifester level from 3rd to 5th (since he has 5 HD). In order to gain the full bonus in manifester level, he would need to gain one level in Psychic Warrior and two more levels in a class that doesn't grant maifester levels for Psychic Warriors.
A character with two or more manifesting classes (such as a Psion/Wilder, or Pyshic Warrior/Psion) must choose which class gains the feats effects.
This does not effect your power point totals, or powers known. It only increases your manifester level, which would help you penetrate PR, increase duration, and powerup other effects of your powers. For the purposes of applying metapsionic feats use your unadjusted manifester level. If you couldn't activate the unaugmented power with the metapsionic feat without the increase to your effective manifester level granted by this feat you can't do so now either. You may still augment powers that have metapsionic feats added to them.
The difference in power between augmented psionic powers and spells cast at higher caster levels might warrent reducing the bonus to +3, but the extra power points that must be spent anyway seem to compensate for this some. That discrepency is also the reason why I kept the manifester level requirements at a reduced level from the previous version.
There is very little hope of balancing that feat unless you immerse yourself in the Practiced Manifester threads on the Psionics and Feats boards. Serious, IMHO.
I'm not sure I agree, but I suppose it is true that there is very little hope of convincing anyone that the feat is balanced unless I do, so I'll go check things out overthere and report back.
Point One:
Spells automatically scale with caster level.
Power do not automatically scale with manifester level, but require more power points.
This difference is generally balanced by two factors.
1. Psionics increased flexibility of use (as a point vs. slot system)
2. When powers are augmented they increase in power more than spells do from an equivilent increased caster level.
Point Two:
Spells are broken into three discrete components of power.
1. Spell Level
2. Caster Level
3. Spell Slots
Psionics are only broken into two discrete components.
1. Manifester Level
2. Power Points
This isn't entirely true and Power Level still matters to a large extent, but the basic aurgument is that the augmentation of powers available from a higher manifester level allow the manifester to make lower level powers into higher level ones with increased DCs and effects.. This is especially true for certain key powers Astral Construct was mentioned, I think Psionic Charm is a good example too.... There are quite a few powers that don't scale as well with augmentation for which you would essentially paying for what an increased caster level would automatically grant.
Point Three:
Manifesters have to pay for their augmentations.
Spellcasters do not.
This is like effectively giving spellcasters free power points.
I consider this one to be balanced due to the reasons outlined in point one.
The counter argument to this however, is more troublesome.
A Fighter 4th/Psion 7th with "Practiced Manifester" is more powerful then a Fighter 4th/Wizard 7th (or Sorcerer) with Practised Spellcaster in the short-term.
The idea here is that the Practiced Manifester can manifest powers that are effectively of a higher level than the Practised Caster can. Reaching very nearly the level of shear power of a straight manifester for short periods of time.
That's what I've got so far.
I haven't finished designing this PrC yet so yes it is underpowered at the moment. Is Nexus to stupid/broken? Also open to any suggestions on a better name for the PrC. I've considered Mind Mage and Psi-Sorceror.
Accounting my past experience wile stupidity is built in automatically in any production of my brain, brokenness isn't. :D
The nexus idea, wile powerfull is still limited by 2 factors:
1 It does apply only to a single school of magic where you are much more powerflull than your peers, leaving you still sub par in all other schools-
2 it is an Epic feat that requies you to be an advanced being (ideally it is to be taken around level 26)
Can any of the more experienced D&D'ers here share their thoughts on the Cerebremancer PrC in general (and Mystic Theurge for that matter)? I've never seen one in action, but they've always seemed rather overpowered to me...can anyone confirm or deny if this is the case? I'd sure appreciate it
And on another note...if someone who's practiced the "psionics is different" option in their DS campaign, I'd love to hear their experiences with it. Does it take a lot of effort to balance psioncs and magic? Do you have to make up a ton of house rules? Would you recommend it for an inexperienced DM? And so on...
However the MT can be broken in several ways. Any PrC that grants level 1-9 spells over 10 levels such as Ur Priest can be used to gain level 9 divine and arcane spells very quickly. An interesting build also combines the Arcane Heirophant and MT. Wiz 3/Clr3/Arcane Heirophant10/MT4 give you level 17/17 caster level in both arcane/divine spells. Feats such as penetrate spell resistence, greater penetrate SR, and practiced spellcaster can also help but remember a single classed spellcaster can spent those feat slots on metamagic, item creation, divine feats etc and gets turn undead, domain powers, or bonus feats as well.
I don't really recommend any Sorceror, bard, or druid combinations of the MT. Overall I would give the class about a 5 or 6 out of 10. It doesn't totally suck but needs something minor to be worthwhile IMHO. Even better saving throws or turn undead would help.
best build generally is:
druid 1
druid 2
druid 3
bard 1
bard 2
green wisperer 1
green wisperer 2
green wisperer 3
green wisperer 4
Arcane hierophant 1
Arcane hierophant 2
sublime chord 1
Arcane hierophant 3
Arcane hierophant 4
Arcane hierophant 5
Arcane hierophant 6
Arcane hierophant 7
Arcane hierophant 8
Arcane hierophant 9
Arcane hierophant 10
at the end you prepare 9° level druid spells and cast spontaneous in both bard and wizard lists till 9°
A part of not being a Dark Sun build at all and to suck hard from 4 to 11th level coompreensive, the only serious weakness of this build is losing 7 levels in wild shape, yet it is enoug to wilshape 4 times a day and the relative weakness of the forms is countered by taking draconic wildshape at charachter level 12
The idea here is that the Practiced Manifester can manifest powers that are effectively of a higher level than the Practised Caster can. Reaching very nearly the level of shear power of a straight manifester for short periods of time.
That's what I've got so far.
Its no secret that manifesters, psions and wilders specifically, have always been front loaded classes. I think a practiced manifester feat with the a prereq similar to what Sage proposed, and that the bonus manifester levels gained from it only being used to augment powers, not meta psionic feats, keeps it in balanced.
Another stipulation that could be used as a balancing factor is that the character would have to maintain focus in order gain the bonus manifester levels.
The comparison of MT and CM to Arcane Heirophant make me think that it might be reasonable to reinstate the bonus feats into the class progression of CM. Those bonus feats are a shared feature of both Psions and Wizards and could come from a combination list, heck Psychic Warriors get them too normally.
The AH was designed sfter the MT. My theory was they were conservative with the MT as they unveiled it before 3.5. There was big uproar on the class and charater optimisation boards at the time. People were complaining it was broken etc. After 2.5 years its not exactly overpowered and WoTC had more leeway designing a Druid/Wiz PrC and included class features and added some new ones.
The same could be done for the Mystic Theugre of course, but that is relatively unimportant for DS.