Where to begin? First, with a few key assumptions:
1. Prices are more-or-less identical across the Known World. This is drawn from RC data which suggest that basic equipment costs the same everywhere. Such a thing may seem counterintuitive in a larger economic sense (as a nation produces more, prices tend to fall) but is possible if the money supply grows at the same rate as larger productivity. And keeping this as a maxim does eliminate the need for fiddling with foreign exchange rates and differences in prices across nations.
2. Average wages are more-or-less identical across the Known World. This maxim is less set in stone than the first, but follows from basically identical taxation levels across nations and a common level of prosperity throughout the Known World. Adventurers in every nation outfit themselves with around a hundred gp worth of equipment before venturing off into their first dungeons; a 5,000 gp diamond is considered to be a rare and valuable treasure just about everywhere. This is probably the weakest of the three assumptions, but should be kept in mind as an upper limit.
3. Agricultural output and general productivity vary drastically across the Known World. This is absolutely clear from technology level and culture. Places like Atruaghin and Ethengar manage purely through hunting and herding, and have just about every adult citizen directly involved in food production; nations such as Karameikos, Heldann and the Northern Reaches have reached medieval agricultural levels (though the Thyatian presence in Karameikos is pushing that nation into Renaissance status) and likely have three-quarters of their population as farmers; some nations such as Thyatis and Darokin are at Renaissance-level technology; Alphatia notably uses industrialized magic to achieve levels of agricultural efficiency unmatched in the Known World.
All of the above assumptions have been substantiated, more or less, in the existing game rules. But a problem exists. Modelling any two of these three assumptions is feasible, using basic economic principles. Achieving all three is not.
So what's the fix? Wages are probably different - but by how much? Alphatian social classes probably set a good upper limit - to be a freeman in that country, you need to have an income of at least 300 gp/year, and that's by no means a sure thing - but how much lower does this go for less developed nations? And what does it mean for prices, balance of trade and so on? Any suggestions?
I would change your third base assumption to:
Technology and Cultural level vary drastically across the Known World, and this has a direct effect on all aspects of economics in each nation.
This identifies the issue at a more essential level, and allows justification of various differences as you introduce them.
As for modeling it, my general thought is, don't worry about it.
Do the basic models for each nation, and rationalize the differences between them by a bit of minor handwaving for the sake of simplicity.
Yes, prices should vary in each nation, and all these other factors. Past a certain point, it isn't worth the effort. Worse, it encourages abuse of the differences by players engaging in speculative trade instead of adventuring.
If its really "essential", just cheese it and say part of the Spell of Preservation got loose from the Hollow World and keeps the economics stable from realm to realm, preventing someone from trying to make a million gp transporting longswords to the Atruaghin Clans or somesuch.
First:
I would change your third base assumption to:
Technology and Cultural level vary drastically across the Known World, and this has a direct effect on all aspects of economics in each nation.
This identifies the issue at a more essential level, and allows justification of various differences as you introduce them.
As for modeling it, my general thought is, don't worry about it.
Do the basic models for each nation, and rationalize the differences between them by a bit of minor handwaving for the sake of simplicity.
Yes, prices should vary in each nation, and all these other factors. Past a certain point, it isn't worth the effort. Worse, it encourages abuse of the differences by players engaging in speculative trade instead of adventuring.
If its really "essential", just cheese it and say part of the Spell of Preservation got loose from the Hollow World and keeps the economics stable from realm to realm, preventing someone from trying to make a million gp transporting longswords to the Atruaghin Clans or somesuch.
Speculative trade is adventuring! Throw a cargo in the hull of your ship and explore the world by paying salaries in profit margines. So what of a Dragon flies by, dont mean you got to vear off course by a thousand miles to track it back to its cave and kill it unless your PC's are insane.
So there's recently been some big-picture discussion of population levels, economic figures, and other social-science aspects of how Mystara works, looking both at published in-game data, certain real-world results, and common sense. Not all of these figures have fully satisfied everyone - which is to be expected; it's a game, quick answers that make the game fun are more important than some sort of rigorous, doctoral-thesis analysis. Still, establishing some sort of framework for talking about how life works across the Known World may be useful.
Where to begin? First, with a few key assumptions:
1. Prices are more-or-less identical across the Known World. This is drawn from RC data which suggest that basic equipment costs the same everywhere. Such a thing may seem counterintuitive in a larger economic sense (as a nation produces more, prices tend to fall) but is possible if the money supply grows at the same rate as larger productivity. And keeping this as a maxim does eliminate the need for fiddling with foreign exchange rates and differences in prices across nations.
2. Average wages are more-or-less identical across the Known World. This maxim is less set in stone than the first, but follows from basically identical taxation levels across nations and a common level of prosperity throughout the Known World. Adventurers in every nation outfit themselves with around a hundred gp worth of equipment before venturing off into their first dungeons; a 5,000 gp diamond is considered to be a rare and valuable treasure just about everywhere. This is probably the weakest of the three assumptions, but should be kept in mind as an upper limit.
3. Agricultural output and general productivity vary drastically across the Known World. This is absolutely clear from technology level and culture. Places like Atruaghin and Ethengar manage purely through hunting and herding, and have just about every adult citizen directly involved in food production; nations such as Karameikos, Heldann and the Northern Reaches have reached medieval agricultural levels (though the Thyatian presence in Karameikos is pushing that nation into Renaissance status) and likely have three-quarters of their population as farmers; some nations such as Thyatis and Darokin are at Renaissance-level technology; Alphatia notably uses industrialized magic to achieve levels of agricultural efficiency unmatched in the Known World.
All of the above assumptions have been substantiated, more or less, in the existing game rules. But a problem exists. Modelling any two of these three assumptions is feasible, using basic economic principles. Achieving all three is not.
So what's the fix? Wages are probably different - but by how much? Alphatian social classes probably set a good upper limit - to be a freeman in that country, you need to have an income of at least 300 gp/year, and that's by no means a sure thing - but how much lower does this go for less developed nations? And what does it mean for prices, balance of trade and so on? Any suggestions?
If you run the numbers against what a human (not involved in personal agricultural production) would spend to eat in a day, it is about 4gp per day (or 1,400gp per year per person). Wealthy persons might consume multiples of that quantity with waste. Conceivably it is expensive to employ labourers permanently because one must feed them and shelter them and pay a wage.
Serfs on the otherhand dont seem to get even a chicken or rabbit beyond once a week, functioning off vegetable and grain pottage, a loaf of bread, a pint of ale and perhaps the occasional egg. Conceivably a serf needs 1 gp per day worth of food and produce. Thats about 350gp per year.
For advanced agricultural science nations such as Alphatia, surplus foods are processed into either fodder for livestock improvement or rations for millitary expeditions. They are probably going to be knocking out as close to production limit as possible.
First:
I would change your third base assumption to:
Technology and Cultural level vary drastically across the Known World, and this has a direct effect on all aspects of economics in each nation.
This identifies the issue at a more essential level, and allows justification of various differences as you introduce them.
Well, my statement was phrased as a hypothetical conclusion. Yours is a factual statement explaining why the hypothesis would be true. Given that at least one of the three assumptions I originally stated has to be false, I wanted to phrase things in terms of conclusions rather than data, and see what could fall out.
(It is possible, after all, for two countries to have different levels of production but the same prices. If Country B makes twice as much stuff as Country A, but arranges for twice as much money to change hands in the process of selling it, then prices should be the same. The problem arises when you realize that the people making the stuff get twice as much money for their year's worth of work. Two assumptions hold, the third goes out the window. An alternate setting in which prices are the same, wages are the same, but productivity is flatlined regardless of technological advancement creates a model that's self-consistent on the face of things, but really, REALLY not close to established facts.)
As for modeling it, my general thought is, don't worry about it.
Do the basic models for each nation, and rationalize the differences between them by a bit of minor handwaving for the sake of simplicity.
Yes, prices should vary in each nation, and all these other factors. Past a certain point, it isn't worth the effort. Worse, it encourages abuse of the differences by players engaging in speculative trade instead of adventuring.
If its really "essential", just cheese it and say part of the Spell of Preservation got loose from the Hollow World and keeps the economics stable from realm to realm, preventing someone from trying to make a million gp transporting longswords to the Atruaghin Clans or somesuch.
Yep yep. "It's a fantasy world, people sometimes resolve their differences by throwing big freakin' balls of magic fire at one another. Pure free-market capitalism may not always apply. COPE."
I haven't sat down and run a bunch of numbers yet, but here's my basic intention:
- Handwave out some productivity figures for a few different nations within the Known World. Alphatia is the first target, both as a nation where a solid "upper middle class" income has been defined outright (the Freeman social standing, making 300 gp/year) and as probably the upper bound on productivity. Following that is Darokin (Renaissance level, without any industrialized magic), Karameikos (late Medieval with the elimination of peonage), Soderfjord (early Medieval), Ethengar (pre-Medieval, focused on herding) and possibly Atruaghin (subsistence hunter-gatherer society).
- Assume that prices across the Known World remain mostly identical across nations - in nations with high productivity, there's more of everything, including more money. Makes for a heck of a coincidence, but avoids a whole lot of trouble later on. Some fudging may be needed to explain why people go further than next door in order to trade, but that bridge will be burned when it's reached.
- Based on the productivity values crunched, try to eyeball some standard wage rates for different nations in the Known World. As stated, Alphatia acts as the upper bound and other nations scale downwards from there.
- From known wages, figure out exactly how much someone needs to spend per year in order to survive. Atruaghin 'wages' get you food, clothing, and not much else; Ethengar probably puts a roof over your head, and things get progressively better from there.
Well, my statement was phrased as a hypothetical conclusion. Yours is a factual statement explaining why the hypothesis would be true. Given that at least one of the three assumptions I originally stated has to be false, I wanted to phrase things in terms of conclusions rather than data, and see what could fall out.
Ayup.
I just wanted to state the positive aspect of it as a counter-reference.
(It is possible, after all, for two countries to have different levels of production but the same prices. If Country B makes twice as much stuff as Country A, but arranges for twice as much money to change hands in the process of selling it, then prices should be the same. The problem arises when you realize that the people making the stuff get twice as much money for their year's worth of work. Two assumptions hold, the third goes out the window. An alternate setting in which prices are the same, wages are the same, but productivity is flatlined regardless of technological advancement creates a model that's self-consistent on the face of things, but really, REALLY not close to established facts.)
In other words, real economics.
Which I understand, but which:
1. Most people don't
2. Most people care about
3. Is really too much effort for a freaking game unless it will be accepted as a doctoral thesis
So I'm still with you.
Yep yep. "It's a fantasy world, people sometimes resolve their differences by throwing big freakin' balls of magic fire at one another. Pure free-market capitalism may not always apply. COPE."
Exactly!
I much prefer NOT to have to fall back on "it's magic", but somethings its best to leave at that. (Unless, as I noted above, you are getting a university degree out of it. :P )
I haven't sat down and run a bunch of numbers yet, but here's my basic intention:
- Handwave out some productivity figures for a few different nations within the Known World. Alphatia is the first target, both as a nation where a solid "upper middle class" income has been defined outright (the Freeman social standing, making 300 gp/year) and as probably the upper bound on productivity. Following that is Darokin (Renaissance level, without any industrialized magic), Karameikos (late Medieval with the elimination of peonage), Soderfjord (early Medieval), Ethengar (pre-Medieval, focused on herding) and possibly Atruaghin (subsistence hunter-gatherer society).
- Assume that prices across the Known World remain mostly identical across nations - in nations with high productivity, there's more of everything, including more money. Makes for a heck of a coincidence, but avoids a whole lot of trouble later on. Some fudging may be needed to explain why people go further than next door in order to trade, but that bridge will be burned when it's reached.
- Based on the productivity values crunched, try to eyeball some standard wage rates for different nations in the Known World. As stated, Alphatia acts as the upper bound and other nations scale downwards from there.
- From known wages, figure out exactly how much someone needs to spend per year in order to survive. Atruaghin 'wages' get you food, clothing, and not much else; Ethengar probably puts a roof over your head, and things get progressively better from there.
Sounds about right to me.
I would suggest you not be too reluctant to alter published figures for wages and the like along the way. Sometimes it needs to be done, if only to retain sanity and stability.
And I fully approve of your plan to burn all bridges when you reach them, although I thought I was the only one who said that.
Even the Atruaghin produce surplus for trade. They might not have the concept of agrarian sciences so you estimate the plateau can support the grazing buffalo herds at 5 acres each buffalo and export 1% of hides per year from the whole plateau of about 19,712 square miles with a plateau population of 145,000 people and function in a trade economy for grains.
They export Tobacco, Tea, and Mounts and import Beer and textiles.
This means a certain permanence to their way of life. If you are growing Tobacco, you have permanent settlements.
The Atruaghin would be living off Bread and Meat with the occasional sweet potato dug from the ground. They are farming Tobacco and hides in trade for Beer and cloth. It also means they are dependent on short volumes of firewood, and eighty six acres might be supporting a small village settlement.
There is your agricultural possibilities.
1. Prices are more-or-less identical across the Known World. This is drawn from RC data which suggest that basic equipment costs the same everywhere. Such a thing may seem counterintuitive in a larger economic sense (as a nation produces more, prices tend to fall) but is possible if the money supply grows at the same rate as larger productivity. And keeping this as a maxim does eliminate the need for fiddling with foreign exchange rates and differences in prices across nations.
Adventuring equipment is about the same everywhere. (Perhaps due to a relatively even spread of adventurers and the existence of many danger zones all over.) We know from the Minrothad and Darokin supplements that there are varying prices for other commodities in various parts of the world.
2. Average wages are more-or-less identical across the Known World. This maxim is less set in stone than the first, but follows from basically identical taxation levels across nations and a common level of prosperity throughout the Known World. Adventurers in every nation outfit themselves with around a hundred gp worth of equipment before venturing off into their first dungeons; a 5,000 gp diamond is considered to be a rare and valuable treasure just about everywhere. This is probably the weakest of the three assumptions, but should be kept in mind as an upper limit.
Right.
3. Agricultural output and general productivity vary drastically across the Known World. This is absolutely clear from technology level and culture. Places like Atruaghin and Ethengar manage purely through hunting and herding, and have just about every adult citizen directly involved in food production; nations such as Karameikos, Heldann and the Northern Reaches have reached medieval agricultural levels (though the Thyatian presence in Karameikos is pushing that nation into Renaissance status) and likely have three-quarters of their population as farmers; some nations such as Thyatis and Darokin are at Renaissance-level technology; Alphatia notably uses industrialized magic to achieve levels of agricultural efficiency unmatched in the Known World.
Correct.
All of the above assumptions have been substantiated, more or less, in the existing game rules. But a problem exists. Modelling any two of these three assumptions is feasible, using basic economic principles. Achieving all three is not.
So what's the fix? Wages are probably different - but by how much? Alphatian social classes probably set a good upper limit - to be a freeman in that country, you need to have an income of at least 300 gp/year, and that's by no means a sure thing - but how much lower does this go for less developed nations? And what does it mean for prices, balance of trade and so on? Any suggestions?
Here's a suggestion--the influence of Darokinian and Minrothad dominance of long-distance trade tends to have a stabilizing effect on prices as they set the prices in their area of dominance and everyone else has to match them or be undercut. Similarly, they set a standard for wages which tends to be matched by competitors. These are set in such a way as to allow their more efficient economies to make huge profits thanks to lower production costs on goods than anyone else.
Here's a suggestion--the influence of Darokinian and Minrothad dominance of long-distance trade tends to have a stabilizing effect on prices as they set the prices in their area of dominance and everyone else has to match them or be undercut. Similarly, they set a standard for wages which tends to be matched by competitors. These are set in such a way as to allow their more efficient economies to make huge profits thanks to lower production costs on goods than anyone else.
I'd revise that slightly to:
"The influence of local trading guilds, like Darokin and the Minrothad Guilds in the Thyatis region, tends to have a stabilizing effect on prices . . ."
There has to be some limit to how far these groups reach. Being limited by the speed of a ship or caravan, you can only go so far with most trade goods and have them provide a decent return, and those will always be high end luxuries that won't affect the price of general staples.
So over in the Savage Coast area, some other merchant groups keep prices stable, and another in the Alphatian Empire (until it sinks), and so on around the world.