Does Athas really lie within the prime material plane? Or is it a demi-plane created by someone/something?
And as Dregoth's Ascent Part II points out, why are there no gods on Athas?
How has Athas been separated from other settings and while I don't like multiversing with DS, would anyone allow this via planeshifting, spelljamming or what-not?
The way I see it Athas must be...em separated or shielded, from Sigil and the other D&D worlds by something, perhaps the Hollow, which negates magic influence and stops travel. The null magic effect of the Hollow might explain why divine power granted by dieties doesn't cross over into Athas.
The Black wouldn't suffice as a barrier as it impedes certain types but still allows others.
The Astral doesn't usually feature as it lies beyond the 'universal barrier'. Only when cracks appear in the barrier (such as in Black Spine) can one leap across it and into the Astral plane. Note it would be infinitely more difficult to find one of these cracks leading into Athas' miniverse than for an epic character to find one leading out. From the Astral planes other normal D&D planes could be reached (and thus Sigil).
One more thing, Planescape under 2nd ed mentions Quasi-elemental planes which are if I remember correctly elemental planes that are influenced by their proximity to the positive and negative energy planes. While the Gray or the Black generally replaces the latter in most peoples books, do these quasi and quasi para-elemental planes exist outside Athas and what shape would they take?
We have Water, Rain, Air, Sun, Fire, Magma, Earth and Silt as elemental or para-elemental DS planes.
What about Steam, Lightning, Vortex, Radiance, Plasma, Quake, Mineral, Ooze for positively aligned planes and Ice, Salt, Vacuum, Fumes, Ash, Obsidian, Dust and Acid for negatively aligned planes? Is this too cheesy? Or can anyone think of better alternatives?
The benefit of adding this extra dimension to the elemental planes is that it could help explain the 2nd devastating elemental catastrophe to hit Athas, which resulted in the Dead Lands by providing a location for the Obsidian plane among Athas' cosmology.
The 1st catastrophe was the Nature Benders attempt to breach the universal barrier using elemental energy of probably the sun which resulted in the change of Athas' sun to a dying star status and the coming of the brown tide by rupturing the conduits to the elemental plane of water (or similar disaster).
The 3rd catastrophe would be Dregoth's Ascension, perhaps he knows he can't actually become a god, but he will use the energy of the elements to do something else, like collapse the barrier and cause a planar rupture of all the elements simultaneously, thus wiping out Athas.
Ok, too long already, and probably too serious, someone send me a pic of Dregoth on a Santa sleigh!
Tha mi an dochas, gum bi bhur Nollaig gle mhath!
I hope youse have a good Christmas.
Ok, too long already, and probably too serious, someone send me a pic of Dregoth on a Santa sleigh!
Check out my sig!
Check out my sig!
Love the hat Dregoth, it's you babe.
:D
Poor Santa. Devoured by a kreen. He never stood a chance.
Noo, not devoured, it's one productive santa's imps! 4 arms, what a productive guy!
Noo, not devoured, it's one productive santa's imps! 4 arms, what a productive guy!
And I thought the one that wanted to be a dentist had issues.
That's not Dregoth!
Looks like one of his little 'elves', the one that brings a hot poker, evil rating 9.
That kreen would have a ball if he ever got to santa's workshop with all those elves.
It would be the equivalent of going to local seafood place and picking your own lobster from the tank. "I'll have the one with the green stripped hat and bells on the right".
That kreen would have a ball if he ever got to santa's workshop with all those elves.
It would be the equivalent of going to local seafood place and picking your own lobster from the tank. "I'll have the one with the green stripped hat and bells on the right".
In other words, a Kreen - All You Can Eat buffet!
so anybody... please correct me.Athas is on the prime. The grey acts as the barrier between the prime and outer planes and only the conduits can breach (aside from blackspine) this barrier (the astral exists on both sides of this barrier). The only conduits that athas has are ones that link the prime threw the barrier to the inner planes (element/para/quasi). There are no gods because of the grey and because there are no conduits that attach the prime to the outer planes (unless dregoth succeeds) The hollow is actually behind the black. The black is in Athas shadows (behind the prime). The black and grey do not replace the quasi elementals.
DOES ANYONE KNOW ANYTHING OFFICIAL ABOUT THE PSURLONS?
OR OFFICIAL STUFF ABOUT THE NATURE BENDERS USEING THE SUN AND CREATING THE BROWN TIDE???
I like what you wrote about the 1st and 3rd catastrophe. It made me think.. what if Dregoth succeeds. After a little while with no elemental/para/quasi(pos/neg), the only thing left would be a corpse (shell) of Athas with dregoth floating around on it (unless he can bypass the barrier with his new outer divine power.
Tyklyk-yll-tyk... If Dregoth succeeds would he be able to use this divine power and fix the shell or corpse of athas by infuseing it with outerplanar energies? What gives the outerplanes substance and shape??? Divine Godlike power???
The 1st catastrophe was the Nature Benders attempt to breach the universal barrier using elemental energy of probably the sun which resulted in the change of Athas' sun to a dying star status and the coming of the brown tide.
The 3rd catastrophe would be Dregoth's Ascension, perhaps he knows he can't actually become a god, but he will use the energy of the elements to do something else, like collapse the barrier and cause a planar rupture of all the elements simultaneously, thus wiping out Athas.
Hey Brun01- love the picture of the slayer savage thing- it looks like a huge dray in plate armor- very sweet.
Yeah, I want to do a backstory and some stats on him now. Totally forgot he had that picture.
I came up with idea that Athas is the inner planes counter part to sigil. So while sigil is fought over by various ideological factions in the outer planes, Athas is embroiled in an elemental war. This helps to explain the lack of gods too. Just like Sigil, Athas is restricted from the gods. But, unlike in sigil's case, they are completely restricted from getting involved in the war of the elemental lords.
You can pull some interesting ideas off of this as well. For instance, during the blue age when lifeshaping was at its peak Athas was aligned strongly to the Positive Energy plane and the plane of Water. As the ages have changed it has difted further closer and closer to the Negative Energy plane and the plane of Fire. This could either be a reflection of who is winning the elemental war, a natural cycle, or both.
I came up with idea that Athas is the inner planes counter part to sigil. So while sigil is fought over by various ideological factions in the outer planes, Athas is embroiled in an elemental war. This helps to explain the lack of gods too. Just like Sigil, Athas is restricted from the gods. But, unlike in sigil's case, they are completely restricted from getting involved in the war of the elemental lords.
Hmmmm, interesting idea.
*yoink*
I
I came up with idea that Athas is the inner planes counter part to sigil. So while sigil is fought over by various ideological factions in the outer planes, Athas is embroiled in an elemental war. This helps to explain the lack of gods too. Just like Sigil, Athas is restricted from the gods. But, unlike in sigil's case, they are completely restricted from getting involved in the war of the elemental lords.
Does this mean the gods just choose not to interfere, or that they can't?
I'd say the latter as 'knowing' gods they'd probably try to gain something out of any situation to aid their own ends.
I guess you'd allow a cleric of one of these gods to use his/her divine powers on Athas then? But I'd see Athas as much more removed from the pantheons and outer planes. Ta for the info tho.
I'm not seeing any Santa, just a tree
It's on my site as well Penn.
In the Astral Plane, the Gray appears as a smooth, round, opaque impegetrable bubble. However, at some point in history, the Githyanki stumbled upon this Astral "pearl", and began working on how to get inside. Eventually, they had found a way to slip inside the Gray (but potentially not back out). This of course led to the Psionic Bomb, the Gith race on Athas, and the pervasive effects of Psionics throughout the world...
The Psurlions, I tend to think, could have been one of two things: Originally from Athas (possibly a life-shaped species?), or somehow got to Athas, possibly through the one transitive plane I feel still has a link to Athas: The Plane of Mirrors (which I think the Planar Gate of Dregoth's utilizes the Plane of Mirrors to escape Athas). The Plane of Mirrors is difficult to access within the Gray, but not completely impossible.
With the Inner Planes -- possibly the same thing that produced the Gray also broke apart and dispersed the Positive and Negative energy planes. I tend to think that the Elemental/Paraelemental planes have inherited a lot of whatever once was the Positive energy plane (which is why I think there is divine magic accessable through the Elements/Paraelements). The Negative Energy plane, however, somewhat integrated into the Gray and the Black.
As for how the Githyanki got past this barrier, well that is simple and works with a piece of Athas that we all know about- the Planar Gate. The Githyanki made it to explore the portion of the material plane cut off by the merging of these three planes. They brought it through with them and it was left there when they made their escape. Now this plays in well with the school of thought that the only way to pierce the boundary of the Black to travel beyond it to use the Planar Gate.
There are 3 random images, just hit F5
I made another, but this one isn't on the randon list of images. Just a gift for the community. Enjoy!
Anyway, as I understand how outer planes come into being, there are enough kreen (according to what I surmise from Kreen of Athas) to create an Athasian version of the Beastlands and the layer of Cania as a full-blown plane (without Mephistophles). It's not too much of a stretch to take all of the Athasian references in certain planar layers and make them into full-blown planes for Athas. Just because no gods apparently exist, doesn't mean that those planes can't.
Does this mean the gods just choose not to interfere, or that they can't?
I'd say the latter as 'knowing' gods they'd probably try to gain something out of any situation to aid their own ends.
I guess you'd allow a cleric of one of these gods to use his/her divine powers on Athas then? But I'd see Athas as much more removed from the pantheons and outer planes. Ta for the info tho.
By your response I'm guessing that you don't fully understand the analogy, because you haven't played or read about Planescape in any detail.
I'm saying that the cannot interfere. That they are barred from entering or sending their direct servants and because of its location at the confluence of the inner planes their are no conduits to Athas for the gods to impower servants if they made it to the planet anyway. So, no you don't see it as much more removed from the outer planes and the pantheons than I do. I was essentially saying that it is in the precise location that is as far removed from the outerplanes as possible, right smack dab in the middle of the inner planes.
The exact opposite of Sigil the city of doors, at the confluence of the outerplanes
Athas the world of no doors, at the confluence of the inner planes.
I made another, but this one isn't on the randon list of images. Just a gift for the community. Enjoy!
This is awesome- I will have to set it as my background for the rest of the holiday season- Thanks :D
some think that this is because an unknown and long dead god once held dominion over Athas. no one is willing to speculate over the name or identity of this being; but they all agree that it was a more passive god, one who merely watched. this sounds like a bunch of screed to me, but there's a teifling, goes by the name of Grissa, "resting" at the Gatehouse who says she found the body of whatever power once claimed Athas. if you can get her to stop blubbering and sobbing for a minute, she'll tell of the dreams and images that rolled off the body of this long forgotton power in the silvery void, she'll even give a name before breaking out in another fit of hysterical crying. that's all probably barmy-talk though, no one has ever been able to substantiate his claim, and they probably wouldn't want to anyway (seeing as to what happened to poor Grissa).
others speculate that Athas is a lot like Sigil. not really a prime material world at all, but some sort of giant experiment. by what or who is still left to much debate. some say that an ancient elemental lord created it, others a god, and yet others claim that it is the creation of a group of signers (but they'll take responsibility for the creation of the whole multiverse).
another theory is that athas, on a cosmological level, is "closer" to the inner planes, that as it developed it was drawn into the planar boarders of the positive/negative, elemental, paraplanes and quasiplanes and was swaddled in the energies of these planes of raw being long before any gods could come around to claim it.
another theory along those same lines is that Athas is what some greybeards call a "Primal Sphere". a Primal Sphere, they go on to say, is an incredibly young sphere (assuming that prime planes have a lifespan). they argue that all prime material planes go through this stage in their development, a time before gods, a time of raw elemental power and energy. as the millenia pass, eventually the prime matures and astral conduits begin to connect themselves to it, drawing divine power and energy and infusing the world with magic and faith. those who follow this theory state that ALL the known (and unknown) prime planes began as Primal Spheres and that the history of those times is long lost after the powers come in and start meddling about (they don't want their followers to think there was a time before them).
others greybeards speculate that it's because athas itself is a rare type of prime world that formed OUTSIDE the will and interference of gods (many other primes have records of divine influence, a "creation myth" one would say). some sages say, however, that every once and a while a prime material plane pops up of it's own accord. the idea is that athas, and other worlds like it (some barmies and addle-coves talk of a place called "Earth" as another example of a prime like athas), spontaneously developed out of raw elemental energy. given birth and existence by the massive confluence of all the inner planar energies. born from the womb of the inner planes themselves so-to-speak. this implies that some prime planes are...well..."self aware" or "alive" in and of themselves to a degree, given life by the positive energy plane. they say it's just one of many primes that seem to have this sort of planar relationship.
finally, there are those that hold to an even more barmy idea, that athas isn't part of the multiverse at all. that it exists in a multiversal dimension outside what we planars know of. they say that paths and portals to worlds such as athas are rare because of this reason, and that the phenomenon of the "gray" and the "black" is actually the barrier material between this multiverse and the next. those that hold this theory believe that there are an infinite number of parallel and perpendicular multiverses that coincide and intersect our own multiverse. this idea alone is enough to drive one barmy. the multiverse is infinite enough, why there'd be a need for an infinite number of multiple infinite multiverses is more than a basher can comprehend.
some say that athas has its own set of paraplanes and qausiplanes, but that is all just talk of clueless. all primes share the same inner planar space, and sages on any prime (no matter where it is) NEVER know the true nature of the adjacent planes. they're clueless after all.
there are plenty who would love to study this particular prime world more closely, and the powers themselves don't like the idea of a world of possible followers being completely out of their reach. but there's chant on the streets now that things are getting a bit shaky out there on athas. it seems a young female silver dragon is asking questions around sigil, looking for a creature who calls himself Dregoth. seems this guy is some sort of weird spell-slinger native to athas. according to her he killed her father and took his bodily remains back with him. needless to say she's pretty peeved about it, and is seeking to put him in the dead-book right quick.
many wizards would love to get their hands on the dark of magic on athas as well. they say that wizards on athas can become "advanced beings", creatures with almost god-like power, through the casting of some incredibly complex spell. they even say that there a wizard spells far beyond the level of the known wizard levels. i'd like to think that there are enough liches and powerful wizards in the multiverse and we really don't need any more "advanced beings" running around, but that ain't gonna' stop 'em from tryin'.
overall, no matter what theory one believes or what ones interest is in it, Athas is almost completely removed from the outer planes and is nearly impossible to get to. portals to athas are extremely rare, i could count on one hand how many have been catalogued to date; and moreover, astral color pools to this far-off prime world are almost non-existent. travel to it via spell or magic item is also nearly impossible, and many a planewalker has gotten lost in their attempt to find this god-forsaken place. that's not to say that a canny basher can't find it, but it takes quite a bit of looking and even then there's no garauntee that she'd be comin' back.
i'd recommend just leavin' it well alone, berk. there are plenty of places out there on the planes far more welcoming and easy to get to than the god-forsaken world of athas. getting there is nearly impossible, leaving is even more so, gods don't go there so clerics won't be able to cast spells, and all the bashers native to that prime world are as mean, sturdy, and strong as a dao. all that just underscores that it ain't a place for strangers, and whatever the greybeards speculate, it doesn't seem to like visitors in any case.
~Manzet Hezvoret A Cataloge of Forgotten and Distant Primes 2nd Edition
The exact opposite of Sigil the city of doors, at the confluence of the outerplanes
Athas the world of no doors, at the confluence of the inner planes.
I'm not certain that I'd call it the world of no doors though, as there's some interesting suggestions that Sigil's doors open into Athas, even if on a temporary, perhaps one way basis.
I say this because there's a racial/cultural enclave of Athasians nestled in the Hive Ward / Lower Ward boundary in Sigil known as New Tyr. As I recall, it's mentioned in 'Faction War', and I touched upon in a bit in Planewalker.com's Guide to Sigil.
Athas also had some other mentions in various Planescape books, enough to fairly well cement that Athas was indeed on the Prime material, just lacking, completely it seems, any Astral Conduits. What exactly the Black and the Gray are, is up for discussion though, and I can see good arguments for a few different ideas. Personally I treat the Gray as simply Athas's border ethereal in the absence of astral conduits to funnel out the world's dead, and the Black as the interaction between Athas's shadow border and that overlap with the Gray/Ethereal. But that's just me.
But back to the point, Athas is referenced in the 'Inner Planes' book, and a few other places, though I can't recall them off of the top of my head since I've never wholly focused a campaign on Athas.
That said, I adore Dark Sun, though I've never gotten the exposure to the material that I'd like, and I've never had the chance to play in, though I did use Athas, and Dregoth, in a plot arc in my own campaign/storyhour involving a deal, if hellishly one sided, between Dregoth and the Baernaloth, Daru Ib Shamiq 'The Lie Weaver'.