Champion of Rajaat changes include:
- Include the inadvertantly omitted ability score adjustments
- Fire Resistance 5 has been removed
- Dread strike has been replaced with Genocidal Focus, which effects both spells and physical attacks
- Regeneration has been reducted to 10. Fire and acid has been changed to sonic and cold.
- Transmutation immunity has been grouped with the other immunities
- explicitly state that any immunity may be voluntarily lowered
- CR and LA have been adjusted
- Orb of Energy storing has been adjusted
Changes to the Dragon PrC include:
- References to Energy Storing as a class feature have been removed.
- Duplex has been changed with All-out attack
- Spellcaster level progression is now in both manifester and spellcater, rather than forcing a choice.
- The defiler metamorphasis mitigating factor has been changed from an XP burn to a sacrifice of 1000 HD of living creatures.
http://athas.org/releases/templates/champion_of_rajaat-r2.pdf
http://athas.org/releases/advancedbeings/dragon-r3.pdf
Lookin' better I'll admit. The dragon rules seem about as good as we're gonna get - not any real problems with that. The Champion template on the other hand, although I can't really say what, still really feels like its missing a lot. Was hopin' to see something a little more customizable to each Champion for one. As far as any other suggestions, truth be told I'm at a loss, though. Anyhoo, it's comin' along so keep it comin' :P
Changes to the Dragon PrC include:
- References to Energy Storing as a class feature have been removed.
- Duplex has been changed with All-out attack
- Spellcaster level progression is now in both manifester or spellcater, rather than forcing a choice.
All-out Attack can be used outside of combat I hope...
Do you mean "level progression is now in both manifester and spellcater" ?
Changes to the Dragon PrC include:
- References to Energy Storing as a class feature have been removed.
Seker, does this mean I have to change the Monarch's Chosen PrC so it can only be taken by a Champion's servant?
Genocidal Focus is a very nice ability, Good job.
I thought that "sense chosen race" was going to be added to the template this time around
Is anyone having issues with open these? I can't seem to get them to
Nope- when I tried to open one of the links it froze up my computer and I had to reboot.
It is telling me that the Internet Explorer cannot download dragon-r3 from www.athas.org. The requested site is either unavailable or cannot be found. This was when I tried to copy like you said and when I was on the athas.org site.
At first I had the same problem but Itried later and it worked fine. Also I like the changes to both the dragon and the champion docs....
Rob.
All-out Attack can be used outside of combat I hope...
Do you mean "level progression is now in both manifester and spellcater" ?
Seker, does this mean I have to change the Monarch's Chosen PrC so it can only be taken by a Champion's servant?
yep.... although that fits too, as it is a monarch's chosen after all
Anyway- back to the topic at hand.
For the Dragon-
Liked Duplex better and would perfer to have it back.
Still no chart to show all of the bumps and increases gained for the stages of the DMI-IX.
Still no explaination on how Raze feats work with dragon magic.
Formatting- need some additional spaces between the start of the PrC and where you give those whom helped their props- which the community at large is mysteriously missing.
All-Out Attack (Ex): When making a full attack action, athasian dragons can manifest a 1st-level psionic power and cast a 1st-level arcane spell simultaneously, in addition to their normal attacks from the full attack action. The spell and power must both have a casting/manifesting time of 1action.....
need space between 1 and action.
For the CoR-
In the intro paragraph (and in the Dragon doc too) the beginning paragraph is not indented and the rest are.
Still not convinced that the dread ability needs to be included- bane would work just as well and not be too weak- it could even be modified to induce paralysis or some other effect, but dread IMO it too much.
Other then these comments
You will have to share the cookie- the rest are for Santa. :DAll-Out Attack (Ex): When making a full attack action, athasian dragons can manifest a 1st-level psionic power and cast a 1st-level arcane spell simultaneously, in addition to their normal attacks from the full attack action. The spell and power must both have a casting/manifesting time of 1action.....
Why can a dragon cast and manifest a spell and power only during a full attack action? Wouldn't be better if it were worded that a dragon can do both in any given round including when making a full round of attacks or something to that effect?
Why can a dragon cast and manifest a spell and power only during a full attack action? Wouldn't be better if it were worded that a dragon can do both in any given round including when making a full round of attacks or something to that effect?
Sysane hits the point I wanted to make in my initial comment, be that the "full attack action" is what is mighty weird. Only when dragons attack can they do such feats?
Do you mean "level progression is now in both manifester and spellcater" ?
Note that you only gain an effective caster and manifester level increase, not additional spells per day, powers known, power points etc.
Why can a dragon cast and manifest a spell and power only during a full attack action? Wouldn't be better if it were worded that a dragon can do both in any given round including when making a full round of attacks or something to that effect?
This is a direct conversion of the Dragon of Tyr's ability to attack with its natural attacks + spell + psionic power. That's why.
i still belive that dragons will be better served by somethig tha allows leves of manifester and caster to stack, but now we all can see might of the dragon! :D
Much better. Does the Dragon PrC scale above level 10 or is it an exception to the rules about epic PrCs scaling into infinate levels (ether one doesn't bother me BTW).
yes it does scale beyond 10 levels.... we were very specific in making it a set progression every few levels on the abilities so that the advancement beyond 10 could be easily extrapolated per the standard epic rules.
i still belive that dragons will be better served by somethig tha allows leves of manifester and caster to stack, but now we all can see might of the dragon!
The class gets both effective manifester level and caster level increases at the same time. Having manifester and caster levels stack is unheard of.
The class gets both effective manifester level and caster level increases at the same time. Having manifester and caster levels stack is unheard of.
In 3.0 there was the True Necromancer that stacked divine and arcane caster levels for necromancy pells
my idea was instead of the caster+manifester increase that, even beein an exception to normal epic rules, works fine, as i said
This is a direct conversion of the Dragon of Tyr's ability to attack with its natural attacks + spell + psionic power. That's why.
Your applying direct 2e logic and mechanics to a 3e world? Whats next, a 3e kit and return of THACO? :P
Sarcasm aside, thats a rather weak arguement. If you can take liberty with adding mechanics like "psionic raze" (an ability that no dragon ever exhibited in 2e mind you) it could easily be changed that All-Out Attack to a mechanic similar to Duplex that works as part of a full melee atack action or non melee action.
Your applying direct 2e logic and mechanics to a 3e world? Whats next, a 3e kit and return of THACO? :P
Sarcasm aside, thats a rather weak arguement. If you can take liberty with adding mechanics like "psionic raze" (an ability that no dragon ever exhibited in 2e mind you) it could easily be changed that All-Out Attack to a mechanic similar to Duplex that works as part of a full melee atack action or non melee action.
Yes- I would like to state my preferance for the Duplex ability again over the All-out Attack.
Please, please, please change it back to the Duplex
Your applying direct 2e logic and mechanics to a 3e world? Whats next, a 3e kit and return of THACO?
Variant classes are kits and BAB is THAC0. ;)
Sarcasm aside, thats a rather weak arguement. If you can take liberty with adding mechanics like "psionic raze" (an ability that no dragon ever exhibited in 2e mind you) it could easily be changed that All-Out Attack to a mechanic similar to Duplex that works as part of a full melee atack action or non melee action.
It's not an argument - it's a statement. It's the same reasoning for why Duplex was included in the first place - Duplex was simply a watered-down version of the Tyr Dragon's ability to attack and cast a spell and manifest a power all in the same round.
I'm not alien to the idea that the Dragon can use a power and a spell in the same round without attacking, though for those who want us to return to Duplex, I noted a lot more people complained about the "uselessness" of Duplex than I've seen for All-Out-Attack.
I never complained about Duplex that I recall (for the record)- I have always thought it was one of the better abilities.
Then you were in the silent minority :P
Then you were in the silent minority :P
Well then I am voicing my pick- multiple times. I think that Dulpex could be slightly reworded to allow its use when the dragon is also making a full attack action to get the same effect, but not only restricing it to a full attack. It could be sated that it can be used as either a standard action or with a full attack action.
Here is am important question- is the use of either Duplex or All-out Attack, in the instance that they are using the spell and psionic multicasting, count towards the amount of times a person may cast a quickened/immediate action for spellcasting/manifesting purposes. I know this does not read that well but I hope I am making this question as clear as possible.
yes it does scale beyond 10 levels.... we were very specific in making it a set progression every few levels on the abilities so that the advancement beyond 10 could be easily extrapolated per the standard epic rules.
That said, there are only finitely many choices available for Psionic Enchantments, since most of them can be taken only once and the others are limited to your known metamagic/metapsionic feats. I know it's unlikely to pass that limit in a reasonable game, but should they also have the option of taking an epic feat (like the bonus feats most classes receive in epic levels)?
I'm not alien to the idea that the Dragon can use a power and a spell in the same round without attacking, though for those who want us to return to Duplex, I noted a lot more people complained about the "uselessness" of Duplex than I've seen for All-Out-Attack.
I don't want you to return to duplex as it was, but it could stand to be rewored in that a dragon can manifest and cast a spell and use a power as part of an attack action as well as a non attack action.
That would sit well with me yes in deed
1. Introduction: Seems fine and well written. Nothing to complain here from my side.
2. Requirements: Look fine, too. Except, I'd prefer "Must be able to manifest 9th-level psionic powers", but I know you guys will stay with level 6 and this is out of discussion.
3. Skills: I don't know if it is needed, but I think autohypnsis could be a class skill, too. Otherwise it seems ok.
4. Class Features:
- Spells and Powers per Day: Seems ok.
- Dragon Magic: Seems fine, too. Except the focus. As far as I understood this ability, than any one masterwork piece of obsidian is enough to work as focus for dragon magic. So an enhanced obsidian sword (value 250 cp), would be enough to work as the focus, right? I was just wondering, why Kalak and Borys had more than one? Was the summ of all globes worth 250 cp? Was it a coincidence that both used obsidian globes and not something else? I was just wondering why it was phrased "Dragon magic requires a piece of masterwork obsidian of a value of least 250cp as a focus.".
- All-Out Attack: I don't know what the duplex ability was about, but this ability sound very.... well, weird....as far as I understand it, a dragon is able to manifest a power and cast a spell simultaneously as a quickend spell/power (IRRC now called swift action), but only when he/she/it performs a full attack. I wonder why this is that way. It seems very weird IMHO. I'd suggest to change that to something like: "Can manifest one power and cast one spell simultaneously as a swift action."
- Psionic Enchantment
Metamixture: This ability confused me a bit. I know what it supposed to do, but I don't understand the PP cost. For example, a dragon casts a 8th-level spell and uses Widen Power with this spell, does he have to pay 19 PP (15PP for 8th-level + 4PP for Widen Power) or just 4PP (only Widen Power)?
Metapotency: Again I'm confused. What happen if I combine Quicken Power and Quicken Spell with this ability? Maybe a list of the possible feats and their combined effect would be helpfull.
Arcane augmentation: Looks fine and understandable.
Path of least resistance: This ability seems weaker compared to the other ones. I don't know why a dragon should know both variants of a spell/power. Besides that to some of those spells who have an psionic variant, SR or PR doesn't even apply to.
Psionc raze: This ability makes me ask some questions. Are the PP drained or lost? If they are drained, than can the amount of PP drained expend the dragon's total ammount of PPs? Why should he pay PP, if he drains PPs?
Far reach: This ability looks fine as it is.
5. Defiler Metamorphosis Spells: Again, I have some questions especially about the format. What is the Spellcraft DC for? The is no Introduction what this means. I guess it is the DC to learn the spell, but as this differs from the "usual" spell description format, it should be explained somewhere. The we have the components. There is verbal, somantic and focus. Usually the focus is described at the end of the spell description, but here it is in the spell description, IMO it this should be changed or added. Then there is the target as personal, but there is also Spell Resistance and Saving Throw listed. As far as I know, spells with the target as personal don't have a Saving Throw or Spell Resistance. Again ther is nothing that explains who can make the Saving Throw or use its Spell Resistance. Comming to Casting Time: 1 day. Why 1 day? I can't remember Kalak was casting a whole day, but then again he wasn't able to finish the spell. Besides dropping the Spellcraft DC, why is the casting time that long? Now there is "To develop". Again a text is missing what this is about. Additionally there is stated "9 days" and "preparation time 1 year". What are the 9 days about and what is the 1 year preparation time? Another point that seems strange to me is "sacrifice 1,000 Hit Dice of living creatures". Is this a focus a material component? Are the HDs lost or aren't they? If they are lost, then the spell should have materiall components. The spell descriptions themselves seems to be fine, although I have to admit, that I haven't looked at every spell, but the first 4 gave me a feeling how the other would be like.
Ok...that's for now. I hope my comments did help to make things more understandable.
p.s.: Sorry that the last part was written that hastly, but I hope you got my points.
5. Defiler Metamorphosis Spells: Again, I have some questions especially about the format. What is the Spellcraft DC for? The is no Introduction what this means. I guess it is the DC to learn the spell, but as this differs from the "usual" spell description format, it should be explained somewhere. The we have the components. There is verbal, somantic and focus. Usually the focus is described at the end of the spell description, but here it is in the spell description, IMO it this should be changed or added. Then there is the target as personal, but there is also Spell Resistance and Saving Throw listed. As far as I know, spells with the target as personal don't have a Saving Throw or Spell Resistance. Again ther is nothing that explains who can make the Saving Throw or use its Spell Resistance. Comming to Casting Time: 1 day. Why 1 day? I can't remember Kalak was casting a whole day, but then again he wasn't able to finish the spell. Besides dropping the Spellcraft DC, why is the casting time that long? Now there is "To develop". Again a text is missing what this is about. Additionally there is stated "9 days" and "preparation time 1 year". What are the 9 days about and what is the 1 year preparation time? Another point that seems strange to me is "sacrifice 1,000 Hit Dice of living creatures". Is this a focus a material component? Are the HDs lost or aren't they? If they are lost, then the spell should have materiall components. The spell descriptions themselves seems to be fine, although I have to admit, that I haven't looked at every spell, but the first 4 gave me a feeling how the other would be like.
I think part of your confusion might be that these are epic spells and so have some different rules for learning and casting. Check out the epic section at www.d20srd.org. That will explain the spellcraft DC and "to develop" sections at least.
I think part of your confusion might be that these are epic spells and so have some different rules for learning and casting. Check out the epic section at www.d20srd.org. That will explain the spellcraft DC and "to develop" sections at least.
If this is the case, then there is something missing in:
The following rules require the Dark Sun 3.5 rules, available at http://athas.org/releases/ds3/, The Dungeon’s and Dragon’s Player’s Handbook v3.5, and the Expanded Psionic Handbook., both published by Wizards of the Coast.
I can't remember to see epic spells in one of these sources.
If this is the case, then there is something missing...
Quite true.
I was curious why there is a difference between the dragon magic abilities in the Paizo version and the newly released rules for athas.org? I know that Dragon (the magazine) caters to a group that doesn't necessarily use the athas.org defiling rules for spellcasting, so I guess my real question is why the athas.org rules are different.
Back in 2e dragon magic only drained life when the dragon cast a 10th level spell. Since these are now epic spells it sort of stands to reason that dragon life draining should only happen with epic spells. Plus the Dragon rules effectively give a way for dragons to cast more powerful epic spells since they can take more backlash through defiling.
This is the first time I ever looked at the dragon rules, so I don't know what it was before this version, so don't blame me for my nescience.
1. Introduction: Seems fine and well written. Nothing to complain here from my side.
agreed
2. Requirements: Look fine, too. Except, I'd prefer "Must be able to manifest 9th-level psionic powers", but I know you guys will stay with level 6 and this is out of discussion.
the reason this was not done were several, some of the most commonly mentioned were
the fact that this allows for psychic warriors to attain dragonhood, as many look to borys and hamanu as being likely to be psychic warriors vs psions
the fact that psionics was always secondary to the dragon..... they were defilers first who just happened to master psionics, so requiring equal levels seriously weakens the character as multiclassing in 3.x seriously weakens characters vs 2ed.
by the conversion guidelines from 2ed to 2.x from wizards on D&D.... multiclass characters get full level in primary class (defiler), and only 1/3 (it might be 2/3rds it is so long since we had this discussion) of the levels in additional classes.... so0 that would put them at either 6-7th level (or 12-13th depending) so 6th level powers is right about right
and the fact that by putting the spell and manifester requirements we set, the minimum level to attempt the transformation into dragon and take the PrC using the fastest route possible is level 21.....
3. Skills: I don't know if it is needed, but I think autohypnsis could be a class skill, too. Otherwise it seems ok.
we based the class skill list off the cerebramancer list, with modifications to show the physical nature of the dragon..... we did not want to add extranious skills that we could not show as all dragons requiring/having..... the skill can still be taken cross class
4. Class Features:
- Spells and Powers per Day: Seems ok.
- Dragon Magic: Seems fine, too. Except the focus. As far as I understood this ability, than any one masterwork piece of obsidian is enough to work as focus for dragon magic. So an enhanced obsidian sword (value 250 cp), would be enough to work as the focus, right? I was just wondering, why Kalak and Borys had more than one? Was the summ of all globes worth 250 cp? Was it a coincidence that both used obsidian globes and not something else? I was just wondering why it was phrased "Dragon magic requires a piece of masterwork obsidian of a value of least 250cp as a focus.".
that is on purpose.... the obsidian orbs you are reffering to are gone into detail in the energy storing ability of champions..... champions use orbs..... dragons only need master work obsidian .... a single piece worth at least 250cp. This means a dragon could use a masterwork obsidian weapon for the focus..... this was done on purpose
- All-Out Attack: I don't know what the duplex ability was about, but this ability sound very.... well, weird....as far as I understand it, a dragon is able to manifest a power and cast a spell simultaneously as a quickend spell/power (IRRC now called swift action), but only when he/she/it performs a full attack. I wonder why this is that way. It seems very weird IMHO. I'd suggest to change that to something like: "Can manifest one power and cast one spell simultaneously as a swift action."
the point of this was not to make it possible for a dragon to cast multiple spells in one round as well as manifesting a power, which is what your suggestion would allow (1 spell and power as a swift plus a standard action which could be a spell) but rather a way to translate the original dragons ability to attack as well as cast and manifest all in one round..... this was specific to when he was attacking in the original fluff
- Psionic Enchantment
Metamixture: This ability confused me a bit. I know what it supposed to do, but I don't understand the PP cost. For example, a dragon casts a 8th-level spell and uses Widen Power with this spell, does he have to pay 19 PP (15PP for 8th-level + 4PP for Widen Power) or just 4PP (only Widen Power)?
the 19 PP cost
Metapotency: Again I'm confused. What happen if I combine Quicken Power and Quicken Spell with this ability? Maybe a list of the possible feats and their combined effect would be helpfull.
Quicken does not give a numeric change on the spell/power so it is ineligible..... the psionic enchantment is specific on that the feats have to grant the same effect on numeric values.....
Arcane augmentation: Looks fine and understandable.
thank you
Path of least resistance: This ability seems weaker compared to the other ones. I don't know why a dragon should know both variants of a spell/power. Besides that to some of those spells who have an psionic variant, SR or PR doesn't even apply to.
it is very useful in a system where psionics is different, it is just specific..... this is more useful when a dragon researches spell variants of all his powers
Psionc raze: This ability makes me ask some questions. Are the PP drained or lost? If they are drained, than can the amount of PP drained expend the dragon's total ammount of PPs? Why should he pay PP, if he drains PPs?
the PP are used to power the spell being cast not given to the dragon, that is why he must pay a cost.
Far reach: This ability looks fine as it is.
thank you
5. Defiler Metamorphosis Spells: Again, I have some questions especially about the format. What is the Spellcraft DC for? The is no Introduction what this means. I guess it is the DC to learn the spell, but as this differs from the "usual" spell description format, it should be explained somewhere. The we have the components. There is verbal, somantic and focus. Usually the focus is described at the end of the spell description, but here it is in the spell description, IMO it this should be changed or added. Then there is the target as personal, but there is also Spell Resistance and Saving Throw listed. As far as I know, spells with the target as personal don't have a Saving Throw or Spell Resistance. Again ther is nothing that explains who can make the Saving Throw or use its Spell Resistance. Comming to Casting Time: 1 day. Why 1 day? I can't remember Kalak was casting a whole day, but then again he wasn't able to finish the spell. Besides dropping the Spellcraft DC, why is the casting time that long? Now there is "To develop". Again a text is missing what this is about. Additionally there is stated "9 days" and "preparation time 1 year". What are the 9 days about and what is the 1 year preparation time? Another point that seems strange to me is "sacrifice 1,000 Hit Dice of living creatures". Is this a focus a material component? Are the HDs lost or aren't they? If they are lost, then the spell should have materiall components. The spell descriptions themselves seems to be fine, although I have to admit, that I haven't looked at every spell, but the first 4 gave me a feeling how the other would be like.
Ok...that's for now. I hope my comments did help to make things more understandable.
p.s.: Sorry that the last part was written that hastly, but I hope you got my points.
as mentioned before these are epic spells.
the reason this was not done were several, some of the most commonly mentioned were
the fact that this allows for psychic warriors to attain dragonhood, as many look to borys and hamanu as being likely to be psychic warriors vs psions
the fact that psionics was always secondary to the dragon..... they were defilers first who just happened to master psionics, so requiring equal levels seriously weakens the character as multiclassing in 3.x seriously weakens characters vs 2ed.
by the conversion guidelines from 2ed to 2.x from wizards on D&D.... multiclass characters get full level in primary class (defiler), and only 1/3 (it might be 2/3rds it is so long since we had this discussion) of the levels in additional classes.... so0 that would put them at either 6-7th level (or 12-13th depending) so 6th level powers is right about right
and the fact that by putting the spell and manifester requirements we set, the minimum level to attempt the transformation into dragon and take the PrC using the fastest route possible is level 21.....
I think I know all the arguments why you made this decision, but I still have another point of view on this one. I know I can't make you change your mind, but you can't change mine either, as I have several arguments for my side, as you do have for your side. It wasn't my intention to start this discussion again , but to tell what my PoV is. Maybe I should have let it out. Sorry for that.
we based the class skill list off the cerebramancer list, with modifications to show the physical nature of the dragon..... we did not want to add extranious skills that we could not show as all dragons requiring/having..... the skill can still be taken cross class
Either way is ok for me, I just thought that authypnosis would fit as well.
that is on purpose.... the obsidian orbs you are reffering to are gone into detail in the energy storing ability of champions..... champions use orbs..... dragons only need master work obsidian .... a single piece worth at least 250cp. This means a dragon could use a masterwork obsidian weapon for the focus..... this was done on purpose
Haven't looked into the champions-template yet, so this just seems unfamiliar.
the point of this was not to make it possible for a dragon to cast multiple spells in one round as well as manifesting a power, which is what your suggestion would allow (1 spell and power as a swift plus a standard action which could be a spell) but rather a way to translate the original dragons ability to attack as well as cast and manifest all in one round..... this was specific to when he was attacking in the original fluff
Now I see the problem, but making it a swift action and not allowing another manifation or casting seems the better way IMO. Just limiting to attacks just doesn't sound good to me.
the 19 PP cost
An example would help to make things more understandable, or it's just me who had problems with that.
Quicken does not give a numeric change on the spell/power so it is ineligible..... the psionic enchantment is specific on that the feats have to grant the same effect on numeric values.....
I still think, that a list would be a better way to represent this ability.
it is very useful in a system where psionics is different, it is just specific..... this is more useful when a dragon researches spell variants of all his powers
I disagree. Even in a psionic is different system this seems weaker. To few spells/powers where this would apply to. But I'm going to check this. Maybe I just got the feeling that this would be the case.
the PP are used to power the spell being cast not given to the dragon, that is why he must pay a cost.
I'm going to check this, when my mind is clearer. But I think, there is something wrong in the logic.
as mentioned before these are epic spells.
I have to admit, I never looked into the epic stuff, but besides that I think "sacrifice 1,000 Hit Dice of living creatures" should be a material component. I'm going to check epic spells and come to that again.
So far thanks for you answers, and I hope you see my comments as a help to make things better understandable. It is not my intetion to just critize you.
edit: By the way, I was just wondering why being human isn't a prerequisite for this class. There enough PrCs that have being dwarf, elf or other races as a requirement. Why don't make this one just for humans?
that is on purpose.... the obsidian orbs you are reffering to are gone into detail in the energy storing ability of champions..... champions use orbs..... dragons only need master work obsidian .... a single piece worth at least 250cp. This means a dragon could use a masterwork obsidian weapon for the focus..... this was done on purpose
I coulda sworn that the Dragons were gonna still have psionically enchanted obsidian orbs -- they just weren't going to be able to store energy in them. They'd still need the Empowered Orbs as a focus for Dragon Magic, tho. Something about the dynamic of needing an item that is made through Psionic crafting that I always prefered. The whole energy storing thing... that wasn't part of my original idea which I had presented, and it was even found to be the purvue of the Champions anyway. But I really was not aware that not only was the energy-storing feature moved to the Champion, but also the Psionically Empowered Orbs, which I had fought hard and long to have in there in the first place.