Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 sosthenes Dec 27, 2005 4:55:40	A few years ago, some friends of mine had trouble getting a bigger group together. So we decided to start a quick "campaign" with the minimal roster, just three players and a DM hacking through some dungeons. To minimize effort on my behalf (I intended to do a more "epic" campaign when more players showed up) I just took the original 3.0 adventure path, starting with the Sunless Citadel and for convenience's sake placed it in Greyhawk. Well, at least the bastardized 3e Core GH... As always, things don't turn up the way you plan. After the second adventure path module, one of the players wanted to join the guild in the throwaway token town in need (Forge of Fury's Blasingdell). One thing led to another and now we've been playing for quite some time far away from prepared adventures and are about to go quite heavy into GH politics. Again, the GH part happened mostly by accident. For the beers-and-pretzels campaign I didn't want to introduce house rules or new gods, so the default setting seemed quite okay. I don't particularly like the Realms and owned the LG Gazetteer, so it seemed a good choice (I was weaned on another system and setting). As the campaign evolved from its hack and slay roots, I introduced some elements and then tried to bring them in alignment with the GH history. Strangely enough, it worked quite well. So, to cut a long story short: I wanted to go against some fantasy cliches, without turning the usual Tolkien-esque world view on its head. So we've got elves as enemies... A charismatic elven leader is basically fed up with the human condition and wants to bring the Sheldomar valley back into a more tranquil era, before the migrations after the Rain of Colorless Fire. In his mindset, the end justifies the means and after he couldn't get support from traditional groups (Celene, Ulek etc.), he turned to ancient myths surrounding a vulcano in the Lortmil mountains. Here he found a large number of infernal giants encased in magical ice. He gathered his followers here and looked for ways to free the giants. One of his minions found the weapon used as a focus to entrap the fiends and stole it. This is where the players entered: The axe shortly belonged to a merchant in the town they ended up (incidentally the head of the Thieves's Guild). They tried to get it back but couldn't stop the release of the giants. Overmatched they fled back to safety. They're now basically trying to stop the army. They've got some time as it's currently winter, but come spring, the elvish cult will invade... It's basically the lackluster Evil Overlord story with a slight twist to get away from the Evil-Good axis. Now for the reason of my post. There are several plot points that could be better integrated in the whole world. Some minor details, some decisions I made at the very beginning, mostly improvised. 1) After we started to turn this into more serious role-playing, I had to find a good place for the town of Blasingdell. I gave some information based on the module and ex post facto found that this was a little hard to justify. A town of two-thousand people on the edge of civilisation, without much local military. So I situated it near the Lortmils, at the very border between the County of Ulek and the Gran March. It's legal status is somewhat questionable, the local mayer/baron has managed to preserve an independent status. So it's some kind of frontier town, later on I stacked a little Deadwood on top of it... Now I can't make head nor tails of the Keoish politics. Mostly it seems that they were just to preoccupied to get the Ulek states back into the fold. The Gran March seems rather belligerent, too. Any ideas for some additional political complications? Can't make it to easy for the players... 2) The role of religion in the area still confuses me. Apart from general problems (how is the church of a god like Kord 'organised'), I don't have a good grasp on the pervasiveness of the churches. Keoland seems especially secular. Medieval analogies don't seem to fit (the odd temple of St. Cuthbert maybe), especially for the elves and other demi-humans in the region. From my point of view, I don't see much "crusading" potential. Maybe one ore two lone paladins, but no temple strike forces... Any different views? 3) I'm starting to entwine the Scarlet Brotherhood in the process. I'd be interested in different views on motivations and methods from the established sources (as it seems that the 3e LG Gazetteer and the 2nd Edition treatise by Sean Reynolds don't seem to be unanimously praised here on this board). 4) As a side-note: The players are currently in the Pomarj. It doesn't seem to be a cookie-cutter Mordor clone, as it's only been recently occupied by goblinoids and their ilk. Am I right in this regard? How would such a country look like? They need some of the old peasants to support them, but mostly uncouth barbarians don't seem to be a prime candidate for a faux Roman Empire... I think I'll stop my ramblings here. I'm really not as helpless as I might look. The campaign is proceeding nicely, no major plot holes as yet. But I'd much rather integrate the whole plot in the setting and history nicely than to invent shamelessly. So, I'd be delighted to hear from some of the resident grogndards...
#2 Cennedi Dec 27, 2005 8:29:00	Great post and some great questions, most of which I will leave for those more knowledgeable than myself. Pomarj area can be very organized depending on who is in charge of said area. Hobgoblins and goblins are after all lawful evil. most of the work you would see performed by serfs or peasants in a traditional medieval kingdom are done by slaves in the pomarj. there is a huge demand and market for new slaves as the attrition rate is pretty high and that is where the slave lords come in. At least that is how I run pomarj.
#3 Mortepierre Dec 27, 2005 9:14:10	4) As a side-note: The players are currently in the Pomarj. It doesn't seem to be a cookie-cutter Mordor clone, as it's only been recently occupied by goblinoids and their ilk. Am I right in this regard? How would such a country look like? They need some of the old peasants to support them, but mostly uncouth barbarians don't seem to be a prime candidate for a faux Roman Empire... I don't think the Pomarj, in its current incarnation, should be mistaken for either Mordor or a "faux Roman Empire". I have always thought of Turrosh Mak and his humanoid hordes as closer to Attila and the Huns. A despot holding to power through sheer strength, cunning and - when necessary - cruelty. His "men" do not exist for peace but solely for war. Whenever TM doesn't push forward in his war of conquest, they get restless and he has to chop heads to restore order. Still, once "fired up", they are difficult to beat in battle. Whenever he conquers a people, the natives have only 3 choices: die, serve, or be recruited.
#4 sosthenes Dec 27, 2005 9:49:04	The problem with the Hun/Mongol comparison is that he doesn't exactly conquer anymore. The Pomarj is his, and now he's fighting a border war, if I'm not mistaken. I don't think the dwarves of the principality will yield ground so soon. So either he'll crumble pretty soon or I need a better model. Maybe the Mongols in China could be similar. Or maybe Charlemagne. Lots of tribles, has to travel constantly to keep them all in check...
#5 Mortepierre Dec 27, 2005 11:54:55	I beg to differ. He has three areas to expand to: - Principality of Ulek - Wild Coast - Celene The first and third are natural choices given they are held by orc's traditional enemies (namely, dwarves and elves). I think I understand why he keeps trying for Ulek. He has already managed to get some of their territory under his control, so he probably views them as half-finished. Plus, going against Celene would mean going through woodland, which would give the advantage to elvenkind. The Wild Coast is also tempting but Greyhawk has enough money to hire as many mercenaries as necessary, plus neither Urnst nor Furyondy would look the other way if this happened. So, for the time being, it's to Ulek they go. As for not being historically accurate.. well, they don't have to be. I never said they were "exactly" the same. It was more a basic idea. That said, I would like to point out that Attila did know his share of defeats too. For instance.. - grievous losses during the battle of the Utus River against the forces of the Eastern Roman Empire - forced to withdraw from his siege of Aurelianum (Orleans) due to the arrival of forces led by the roman general Aetius and the visigothic king Theodoric I - defeated at the battle of the Catalaunian Plains
#6 Elendur Dec 27, 2005 12:47:42	Sosthenes: I don't see anything about your campaign that couldn't fit in Greyhawk. 1) I think any hills area is fine for Blasingdell. I put mine in Keoland. 2) You are right about the role of religion in the Sheldomar. It has a relatively modest impact on politics, unless you want otherwise. There are several knightly orders you could use as crusaders. 3) You are pretty free to do as you wish with the SB. As a secretive group, whatever strange plotline you develop could just have gone unnoticed by historians. I personally don't favor SB in that area though. 4) There have always been humanoids in Pomarj. It's just that recently the human settlements have been overrun. I think of it as a wild country that was partially colonized, but now has reverted back to it's native inhabitants.
#7 Mortepierre Dec 27, 2005 13:50:56	There have always been humanoids in Pomarj. It's just that recently the human settlements have been overrun. I think of it as a wild country that was partially colonized, but now has reverted back to it's native inhabitants. Uh?! Sorry but I don't think so. The "Slavers" (2e) accessory makes that clear. The Pomarj area had been under the control of Oeridian/Suloise immigrants for a thousand years. It wasn't until the Hateful Wars that humanoid tribes - driven out of the Lortmils by (mainly) the forces of Ulek - crossed the Suss Forest and arrived to the rugged highlands of the Pomarj. They found the human inhabitants weak and indolent. As a result, they attacked them and captured the land. Prior to that, the Pomarj hadn't had more humanoids "natives" than any other part of the Flanaess.
#8 sosthenes Dec 27, 2005 15:21:49	Sosthenes: I don't see anything about your campaign that couldn't fit in Greyhawk. That's not the problem, we've been running in Greyhawk for quite some time. I'm just trying to fill in some spots now that the impact of the plot is getting bigger and taking a peek at some earlier revisions of GH seems appropriate. 1) I think any hills area is fine for Blasingdell. I put mine in Keoland. Mine are just above Waybury, right at the border. So there's a justification for a pretty large town without too much military. They're the first casualty if the elves come out of the mountains... 2) You are right about the role of religion in the Sheldomar. It has a relatively modest impact on politics, unless you want otherwise. There are several knightly orders you could use as crusaders. 3) You are pretty free to do as you wish with the SB. As a secretive group, whatever strange plotline you develop could just have gone unnoticed by historians. I personally don't favor SB in that area though. That's one of my "problems". I'm looking for lots of parties to the upcoming conflict and it doesn't look too good for the poor humans. The Ulek states aren't that big, lots of elves will probably choose the wrong side. Keoland comes off as a little of a pushover, and they're preoccupied with the Sea Princes as well. If I'm not mistaken the Gran March has some other battles, too. If the cult plays it right, it'll have quite some time before anyone can muster armies against them. Which might just be the time for the SB to drop pretensions of sublety. And quite a lot of that could be part of their plans... Having just recently re-read my Song of Fire and Ice I'd say that that's still not enough subterfuge ;)
#9 Elendur Dec 28, 2005 11:15:01	Uh?! Sorry but I don't think so. The "Slavers" (2e) accessory makes that clear. The Pomarj area had been under the control of Oeridian/Suloise immigrants for a thousand years. It wasn't until the Hateful Wars that humanoid tribes - driven out of the Lortmils by (mainly) the forces of Ulek - crossed the Suss Forest and arrived to the rugged highlands of the Pomarj. They found the human inhabitants weak and indolent. As a result, they attacked them and captured the land. Prior to that, the Pomarj hadn't had more humanoids "natives" than any other part of the Flanaess. Whoops, sorry about that. I should avoid commenting on history, my knowledge of canon is spotty, and in this instance my Pomarj might be diverging from the mainstream. I have some strange plans for it. Sosthenes: I don't think Keoland is a pushover. I'd think of it like the U.K., it's lost most of its colonies but it's still powerful. You should be able to find a regional leader whose competent enough to help the humans. Though if it's the side your PCs are likely to take, you don't want the leader to be too competent, right? You want the PCs to save the day.
#10 samwise Dec 28, 2005 14:03:45	Have you checked the population of Keoland compared to Celene lately? Even throwing in the rest of the elves around the Sheldomar, any elven "revolution will have trouble. Also, most elves outside of Celene are less than thrilled with the arrogance of Celene, and are closer to the humans. Check the number of half-elves in the Duchy of Ulek. They have little cause to support some cleansing war. The dwarves of the Principality of Ulek, and by extension the rest of the Lortmils, strongly favor Keoland, so add them on Keoland's side. Why wouldn't Turrosh Mak attack Celene while they are busy elsewhere? Why wouldn't Greyhawk and Dyvers take advantage of Celene getting involved in a war in the Sheldomar? A better question would be how Celene will survive this mad plan.
#11 ripvanwormer Dec 28, 2005 15:13:07	2) The role of religion in the area still confuses me. Apart from general problems (how is the church of a god like Kord 'organised'), I don't have a good grasp on the pervasiveness of the churches. Keoland seems especially secular. Medieval analogies don't seem to fit (the odd temple of St. Cuthbert maybe), especially for the elves and other demi-humans in the region. From my point of view, I don't see much "crusading" potential. Maybe one ore two lone paladins, but no temple strike forces... Any different views? Keoland made a point near its founding of not becoming entangled in religious politics. Its government supports no religion; it's very much a secular state, unlike many of the nations of the Flanaess. That said, the people of Keoland are often religious. The various churches support themselves by giving healing spells and other services in exchange for donations. I think you're right that there aren't going to be temples sending troops to defend Keoland. Theocratic states like Veluna to the north might send clerical legions to help out, however, if properly approached. The primary "crusader" types in Keoland will be quasi-religious orders like the Knights of the Watch. 3) I'm starting to entwine the Scarlet Brotherhood in the process. I'd be interested in different views on motivations and methods from the established sources (as it seems that the 3e LG Gazetteer and the 2nd Edition treatise by Sean Reynolds don't seem to be unanimously praised here on this board). The criticism of Sean K. Reynolds' The Scarlet Brotherhood seems mostly in regards of his treatment of the Olman; they're made to be a bit more primitive and weak than some would like, and their history doesn't quite jibe with some posters' interpretation of the original source material. I think some people would have liked it if the Scarlet Brotherhood had remained a covert organization of spies and assassins as it was in 1st edition before the From the Ashes era. With that criticism in mind, the 1998 resurrectors of Greyhawk endeavored to give them some setbacks and force them somewhat back underground. The problem with that, however, is that a villain with too many setbacks stops being viewed as a credible threat. So instead of an insidious secret organization slowly gaining ground we have a conquering naval power who has recently suffered some upheavals and setbacks. I don't think they've been completely neutered (I don't think Iuz has either), but it'll take some doing before the Scarlet Brotherhood is as feared as before. 4) As a side-note: The players are currently in the Pomarj. It doesn't seem to be a cookie-cutter Mordor clone, as it's only been recently occupied by goblinoids and their ilk. Am I right in this regard? How would such a country look like? They need some of the old peasants to support them, but mostly uncouth barbarians don't seem to be a prime candidate for a faux Roman Empire... The humanoid tribes that have conquered the Pomarj are mostly nomadic hunter-gatherer types. They don't primarily rely on peasants growing crops; there may well be some, however, periodically raided or forced to give tribute. The Pomarj has a lot of old ruins in it and a lot of new rude camps. The grandest (and perhaps tackiest) constructions will be in the vicinity of Turrosh Mak's capital.
#12 samwise Dec 28, 2005 15:25:56	The humanoid tribes that have conquered the Pomarj are mostly nomadic hunter-gatherer types. They don't primarily rely on peasants growing crops; there may well be some, however, periodically raided or forced to give tribute. Actually, given the population of the Pomarj, those humanoids have been relying heavily on farming. That, or starving miserably. There is simply not enough space to support hunter-gatherers there.
#13 ripvanwormer Dec 28, 2005 22:08:35	Fair enough.
#14 sosthenes Dec 29, 2005 4:26:01	Have you checked the population of Keoland compared to Celene lately? Even throwing in the rest of the elves around the Sheldomar, any elven "revolution will have trouble. Also, most elves outside of Celene are less than thrilled with the arrogance of Celene, and are closer to the humans. Check the number of half-elves in the Duchy of Ulek. They have little cause to support some cleansing war. The dwarves of the Principality of Ulek, and by extension the rest of the Lortmils, strongly favor Keoland, so add them on Keoland's side. Why wouldn't Turrosh Mak attack Celene while they are busy elsewhere? Why wouldn't Greyhawk and Dyvers take advantage of Celene getting involved in a war in the Sheldomar? A better question would be how Celene will survive this mad plan. Note that I specifically mentioned that my Overlord _didn't_ get help from Celene. That's the other side of the Lortmils. He might recruit some of his helpers from there, but that's about all there is. Once there's a war that isn't quenched in its very beginnings, I would say that Celene is increasing its isolationist tendencies. Therefore there's no added leverage for Turrosh Mak, or other potential enemies. It's also not really a cleansing war. They're really aiming for the best of all people, just under a wise elven government. The leader doesn't even want to rule supreme, he'll just abdicate once his work is done (Yeah, right, I know...) The forces of the would-be conquerers are led by elves, but currently consist mostly of some large tribes of partially fiendish orcs and some auxiliary goblinoid tribes. The orcs number about 1000 - 1500 and are quite disciplined. The elves number about 300 - 400, some of them have a modicum of class levels. The most impressive part are the freed giants (for which I took Fire Giants, advanced them to Huge and added the Half-Fiend template). There are roughly 100 of them. That's a pretty small army, considering they task they have set themselves to. This is one of the main reasons why I posted here, bringing my rough ideas for the military campaign in line with the general Greyhawk situation. For some victories, the elves will need more troops, allies and/or distractions. The leader is trying to get some undead support, but that probably won't come together, it's mostly a side-quest for the players anyways. So, assuming no necromantic help, I think the first stages of the "war" will go something like this: 1) The players managed to get some military units from King Skotti (a nice adventure involving a tourney). They're currently stationed near Blasingdell, at the very foot of the mountains where the cultist's army will emerge. Now the attack was suspected earlier, they've been stationed here all winter. So when the Sea Princes will suddenly increase their war efforts (the conflict was mentioned in the LG gazetteer), they'll ride south. 2) Soon after that, the armies will come down from the mountains, scoring an easy victory. They're now between the Gran March and the Duchy of Ulek. He'll leave a rear guard of mostly orcs behind so they can slow down or halt any attack coming out of the 'March -- who are fighting elsewhere, anyway. 3) The leader of the elves and some of his minions have contacts in the Duchy, so they're actually joined by some of their units, leaving the rest to weak to fight against them. This will cause quite some trouble and split allegiances, so I'd say the Duchy will be out of the fight soon. 4) Now it gets difficult. The general plan is to march against Niole Dra, trying to get there before Keoish reinforcements from south of the Dreadwood could possibly arrive. Once they hold the city, they should be able to reinforce their positions and gater additional troops. At this point of time, the situation of each country should look like this: * Duchy of Ulek: Some unrest, but mostly on the elves side, the rest will be rather defensive. * County of Ulek: The nature worshippers should generally agree with the conquerers plans, although not with the means. They're a little far off and not as martial. It's likely that they remain neutral, fortifying their borders. * Principality of Ulek: They'd like to help, but they're preoccupied with the Pomarj aggression. * Gran March: Currently fighting with the Giants and/or Bissel (have to refer to the gazetter and my notes for that), so they'll probably only send some troops south once the cultist's army prove succesful and thus dangerous. * Keoland: The main enemy, but they're fighting a war at two borders. * Sea Princes: Of course it's no coincidence that they increase their war effort. The Scarlet Brotherhood wants to use the situation, even coming out of their hiding, assassination key figures and sending some military units of their own. The alliance with the elves is short-term from both sides, but until they've conquered all the other parties... * Geoff and Sterich: I haven't integrated them much yet, they should only start to play a role once the battle of Niole Dra is over. That's my initial assessment. The players will have some influence over what happens, so I won't predict much further. If everything goes allright for the "bad guys", the main Sheldomar valley will belong to the Elves, everything up to the Dreadwood will be claimed by the Scarlet Brotherhood. So that's my current plan. Anything that comes up in this discussion here will have an influence over it. I'm still unsure about some countries and about the actual, visual involvement of the Scarlet Brotherhood (i.e. whether there will be much monks/wizards/Hepmonaland savages in the actual battles or they'll just provide money and support)
#15 OleOneEye Dec 29, 2005 7:34:56	The Knights of the Watch will be keenly aware of what is happening and actively engaged against it. The invading army needs to be larger or it will be crushed by Keoish forces long before they can cross the Sheldomar.
#16 kang_kodos Dec 29, 2005 9:33:03	The Knights of the Watch will be keenly aware of what is happening and actively engaged against it. The invading army needs to be larger or it will be crushed by Keoish forces long before they can cross the Sheldomar. Depends on the timetable in the campaign. If the Giants are still occupying Geoff, the KotW may have their hands full with that situation (helping people get out, slowing the giant advance or aiding in the liberation, depending on how far the invasion has progressed in his campaign). They may know about this invasion (or not) but they may not have the forces available to do anything about it. Also, Gran March could be similarly occupied, as they would be next in line to be invaded. Depending on the level of cooperation between the Commandant and the King of Keoland, the King could order GM levvies to be called up, and Gran March has alot of reservists (but they wouldn't be able to stay in th field for long without severely impacting GM's economy), not to mention a big standing army. Of course, if there is no giant invasion currently (couldn't find a time reference in the original post), then the Celenites (Celenians?) are definitely toast. They would be unable to stand up to either Keoland or Gran March's forces, much less being caught between the two. Ed P.
#17 sosthenes Dec 29, 2005 11:19:25	Once again, no official support from Celene for my elven warlord... And the timeline is roughly the state of the Gazetteer (59x CY?). And yes, thanks, I forgot to include the Knights of the Watch in my plans. Going purely from the LGG, the info is really spread through several nations. They will play a role, but they're still occupied with the giants of Geoff and some trouble in Ket. So if they come, they'll arrive a little late to the scene. Although even then I'll predict a Crecy/Agincourt-like disaster for them. Longbowelves and giants along will wreak havoc. 3000 knights altogether are a considerable force if they arrive at the wrong time. But if you can prepare for them, it's a manageable obstacle. Will be a memorable battle, though. The elves will have a slight problem with reinforcements. The orcs won't last long (on purpose, as they don't want to look like the bad guys to the common folk). They will have to rally some support from all the elves in the valley or maybe from Celene (I suppose that quite a lot of them are fed up with its isolation and the melancholy of the queen). That's a possible attack angle for the players, if they manage to paint them as the bad guys, it will be over soon. Whether the winners will be able to withstand a Scarlet Brotherhood offensive then...
#18 OleOneEye Dec 29, 2005 17:22:28	Just some more random thoughts: Melf and his faction may join the effort to help raise a pan-elvish Sheldomar. Keoland has huge numbers of elves living in its borders - many in the Dreadwood. When the Keoish relief force marches back from the Sea Princes border to defend Niole Dra, they could be ambushed and annihilated in the Dreadwood. A great elvin orator could be travelling throughout the Duchy of Ulek rallying elves to the cause. Their passion may overwhelm their senses and plunge the Duchy into civil war. The valley elves would likely not ally with other elvin forces, and the master of the vale would be very unlikely to allow significant numbers of them to leave on the warpath in any event. The freedom loving folk of Yeomanry may use the situation to throw off any last vestiges of fealty to Keoland and declare full independence and neutrality. The elves of the Spindrift Isles would likely support the efforts, though their distance may limit aid. Ket may take the opportunity to drive through Bissel into the northern Gran March. Keoish aid to Geoff and Sterich to battle the Crystalmist giants would evaporate with an assault on their capitol. Perhaps the giants are in some sort of alliance with the giants used by the elves. If the Scarlet Brotherhood/Sea Princes mounted an amphibious assault of Gradsul in unison with the assault on Niole Dra, Keoland would be in difficult straights indeed.