just wondering because I am most likely going to use dragon/avangion-esk PrC's in the homebrew that I am making and I will most likely be using the epic bureau version as a standard, although i think I am going to allow dual progression with my PrC. That was one of the selling points back in 2ed and it still is now.
Now this may be my take on things but I have always thought that psi war powers had a necro school feel to them and the avangion being a preserver i would think would not be favorably disposed to necromatic teachings. But that is just me.
So without the hamperings of the psi war inclusion I would myself want to maintain an equal manifester/caster ability of 9th level spells
wiz1, psion1, wiz2, wiz3, wiz4, wiz5, psion2, psion3, mindmage1,mm2,mm3,mm4,mm5,mm6,mm7,mm8,mm9,mm10,cer1,cer2,cer3,cer4,cer5,cer6
with that path you would have caster lvl 19 / manifester lvl 17 at lvl 24 all the required feats (as long as they stay the same as the dragon) and with the MM PrC from Dragon 313 you would have the twin wells same source that would raise your effective caster lvl to more towards 24 so that you can still hit creatures your lvl.
you would just have to deal with being an innefectual caster/manifester until approx lvl 18, not very appealing prospect but after that point you would be very versitial and most likely considerably more powerful than most standard caster classes.
Unless the greater fortitude feat is something deemed neccesary to survive your body transforming into a completely alien being from the humanoid form, if it is not then why not allow for a different feat.
Actually I also preffer Avangions having a higher requirement than level 6 powers...... the reason being in 2ed, while the dragon was NOT advancing as fast as a psionicist in psychic powers ever level over 20 (in 2ed they only got half the powers of a psionicist after 20th) the avangion was listed as advancing at the same rate.....
This is debateable. Dragon Kings was full of typos and errata. Later 2e Dark Sun material also gives a variety contradictory information. Some offical sources show Dragons with the full compliment of psionic powers (namely Dregoth, in the revised campaign setting), others do not (Beyond the prism pentad, but this contains other glaring errors as well).
That is basically what I have been basing my opinions on. But the more I think of it their was never really a fully fleshed out 10th lvl avangion in DS so they could feasably become more of a bird of prey than a big glowing butterfly. There is alot of wiggle room with avangions due to the fact that there is so little cannon material concerning them.
Dragons also had a reasonable chance of being killed by the transformation process itself.
Regardless, I think the whole concept of balance is often taken too far. I see no problem with one side being clearly more powerful, stats wise.
It's true that there is much less material about avangions than dragons, but I still really can't picture them as a "bird of prey", at least not in the sense I think you mean. It's pretty clear that, if anything, an avangions physical form becomes weaker. Though, to be honest, this is not that big of a deal. Psionics and/or magic allows one to be any shape it pleases, for a time.
I agree with Sysane that they should have Knowledge (nature) too.
As Athas.org has revised the language of the manifester/spellcaster level issues- I think that the Avangion should get the actual +1 to a caster or manifester class each level- And gain the effective caster/manifester level in the other class (so if they got a +1 to an arcane spellcasting class then they would then get a +1 effective level to their manifester class. This would be in line with how they had a greater number of powers and/or spells in 2e and also compensate(?) for their diminished physical capacity.
If you want a "harder" feel to it, have there be a saving throw on the spells, to survive their casting. Don't make the psionics requirements increase -- it may appear to be a solution, but all you will do by raising the psionic requirements from 6th level to anything higher is make for weaker overall Avangions. I can't help but feel like a broken record.... This argument/discussion comes up so much, I have to re-present my case/standings/points as to why it is important to have a difference between arcane and psionic levels in the requirements, with people telling me "oh, yea. That makes perfect sense." and then a little while later the arguments are drummed back up as if my points simply did not exist...
I feel that the knowledge (nature) as a prereq is more of a flavor mechanic vs that its meant to hinder the would be avangion. It would add a slight distinction between the two ABs but at the same time keep them in balance.
That, I don't have a problem with. Requiring the Avangion to have studied more (Knowledge skills) with relation to what they are becoming, I could see. Bumping up the Psionics power level requirement will only break the Avangion and do the opposite of what people would want for them.
That, I don't have a problem with. Requiring the Avangion to have studied more (Knowledge skills) with relation to what they are becoming, I could see. Bumping up the Psionics power level requirement will only break the Avangion and do the opposite of what people would want for them.
Agreed
I like the idea that the path of the avangion is harder to trod- so upping the psionic requirements to 9th level powers is not uncalled for.
As Athas.org has revised the language of the manifester/spellcaster level issues- I think that the Avangion should get the actual +1 to a caster or manifester class each level- And gain the effective caster/manifester level in the other class (so if they got a +1 to an arcane spellcasting class then they would then get a +1 effective level to their manifester class. This would be in line with how they had a greater number of powers and/or spells in 2e and also compensate(?) for their diminished physical capacity.
If you up the psionic requirement to 9th level, then there is hardly any difference between the +1 effective level and +1 level for purposes of improving the primary spellcaster/manifester class, thus to me there is no reason to "upgrade" to +1 level - which on paper is more powerful since it would give you the *option* of extra spells and spell slots if you chose a second pair of caster/manifester class. I am fully aware of the limitations of such a choice in terms of caster/manifester level and SR/PR, so maybe I'm turning a feather into a cockatrice, but I think that on paper some "enlightened" souls will think "this is horribly broken! are they on crack?" Thus I'd prefer the +1 effective level approach, and then give the Avangion PrC a class feature akin to the Veiled One PrC's Spell Archive to give it more spells.
I know I am speaking of one build and one build only, but how many different builds are there that are going to allow you to meet the prerex and attain full metamorphosis before lvl 40.
that is another question I wanted to ask, what are you guys capping your lvl's at , personally I would cap them at 40. At that point turn them into powerful npc characters or allow them t ocome out of retirement to join in epic battles, like say against rajaat or something to that effect.
Like I said, in my build of a avangion candidate the 9th lvl manifester req only adds 2 lvl's to the character making it possible to try the transformation at lvl 24 with a manifester lvl of 17 and a caster lvl of 19. I know that is just one build but 2 lvl's isnt going to kill ya and their effective caster/manifest lvl with that build is well within acceptable DR ranges once you add in twin wells same source ability.
Your idea relies on the Cerebrmancer class to accomplish it's goals. The goal for Athas.org should not be to basically require a certain Prestige Class in order to get the Avangion process to work. You still haven't explained the problem with SR/PR issues for someone who is so subdivided in levels. Work with the base classes, and use them for the basis for development. So show how, with Wizard, Psion, Wilder, Psychic Warrior only how it is possible not to have a horrifically gimped character who has a requirement for 9th level powers & 9th level spells. Show how such an individual could even begin to compete with characters who aren't so subdivided in levels. The thing is -- you can't. It's more or less "bad form" to have one prestige class be built around the idea of using other Prestige Classes in order to even be attainable -- unless it makes sense with the context of the prestige classes in question. For this -- it just doesn't.
I know I am speaking of one build and one build only, but how many different builds are there that are going to allow you to meet the prerex and attain full metamorphosis before lvl 40.
Well, you use the prerequisites we've made for the Dragon, and apply them to the Avangion. That way, it is actually possible, and desireable to work towards the process. If that's not enough, look for things outside of the power level requirements to accomplish your ends.
that is another question I wanted to ask, what are you guys capping your lvl's at , personally I would cap them at 40. At that point turn them into powerful npc characters or allow them t ocome out of retirement to join in epic battles, like say against rajaat or something to that effect.
I know these words, but together they don't make any sense. Explain what you mean by "capping"?
The problem, I think we're having here, is that people are assuming that 6th level powers somehow is gimping or weakening the Avangion -- or making it appear that the Avangion process is somehow "easier" to attain than it was in the 2E mechanics. The problem is that this is extraordinarily incorrect. Much like how I had explained with the Dragons. It sums up to that the two systems are really quite different in many ways.
In 2nd Edition, Humans "dual classed" (while Half-Elves "multiclassed") -- Dual-classing, and 2E multiclassing means totally different things than the 3/3.5e multiclassing. I have gone over this a few times before, but basically -- they are totally mutually exclusive from each other.
In 2E, a "Multiclassed" character would be most like the idea of a "Gestalt" character from Unearthed Arcana -- you have two (or three) classes you are levelling simultaneously -- non-Human races multiclassed in this fashion. As such, a Half-Elf Defiler/Psionicist would be gaining levels in both Wizard and in Psionicist simultaneously as he gains experience -- dividing the experience points he gained in half and having basically two different experience point values he'd keep track of -- one for Wizard, and one for Psionicist. As classes in 2E had different experience point "thresholds" that they leveled at, the two classes eventually would have a disparity in levels to reflect this. Defiler was pretty darned quick in levelling, and so the character would (I think) have more Defiler levels than Psionicist.
For Humans -- this worked radically differently. Basically, when a Human "Dual-classed" he ceases developing any levels in his current class, and starts on his new class. He cannot use any of his primary class' abilities until after he has made equal or more levels in the new class. He also can never again gain levels in the primary class once he starts down a new path. So, a Human Defiler/Psionicist, if he does this, would need to make 20 levels as a Defiler (or a Psionicist), then stop, and start working on levels as the other class (Psionicist or Defiler respectively), and does not have access to his first class' abilities (spells/powers) until the second class is level 20.
Mind you -- in both cases -- the experience required to develop is considerably less than in 3/3.5e. As we all (should) know, in 3/3.5e, multiclassing is handled by separating a character's level and experience points from particular classes. All characters develop in levels at the same rate regardless of class choice, and to multiclass, you simply choose to take a level in the new class rather than the old class. This produces a massive disparity from the old system. Someone with 20 levels of Wizard(defiler) in 3.5e, that then takes 1 level of Psion(telepath) in 3.5e, will need to get the experience points necessary for a level 21 character to do so.
And think about just how useful 1 level of Psion(telepath) will really be as a 21st level character. Now extend that to how useful 20 levels in Psion(telepath) would be to a level 40 character. For the purposes of being able to actually manifest powers that inflict any kind of combat-related offense -- the target, which would probably be aorund your level, would have about +20 levels over your manifester level. What does that do to Power Resistances usually? Or how about simple Saving Throws? At epic levels, that means your target has a +10 extra bonus on any saving throw vs. your manifester level used to calculate the Difficulty Class for that save. Do you think they'd really be bothered by your paltry psionic ability? I think not. Basically, 1 level of Psion for a level 21 character comes out to being just about as useful in combat for someone with 20 levels of Psion at level 40.
Now, we're not talking a direct 20 levels of Wizard/20 levels of Psion here -- we're talking somewhere around 17 levels of Wizard (9th level spells) and 17 levels of Psion (9th level powers). So, we're talking about a character -- using the Base Classes as your baseline for figuring out requirements, and the two base classes with the fastest development potential to reach the requirements -- who is 34. Now.... That means that your spellcaster level is 17, and your manifester level is 17, at level 34. How well do you think your spells are going to work against level 34 opponents? How about your powers? I'll give you a hint -- the character who is divided like that will get very frustrated, very quickly -- because most of his spells and powers are going to get either resisted or saved against in every fight.
This is hardly what I would percieve to be the best choice for characters who are supposed to have become "masters" of Psionics and Arcane Magic -- whether it is a Dragon or an Avangion. Instead, it shows one of the biggest flaws in the 3/3.5e rules mechanics -- Multiclassing as a spellcaster or manifester cripples the character in an exponential rate, unless the spellcasting & manifesting levels also increment at each level.
Raising the Power requirement to 9th level mandates that characters look for some way to get +1 manifester level and +1 spellcaster level at as many levels as he or she can -- or else the character will find that he or she can really not do much of anything at all to creatures his or her level. This means the Cerebrmancer Prestige Class. So even without requiring it in words specifically, by raising the requirement to 9th level, you are forcing an implied requirement to use the Cerebrmancer Prestige Class just to have a hope to be able to do something to characters/creatures at your level.
Now, I've made my case before as to how I had come up with the 6th level Power requirement for Dragons. The case still holds very true for Avangions, and I'm not going to back down on this. 9th level requirements for both Magic and Psionics will only harm the Advanced Being character, not make him or her any better. It's not about making the requirements more stringent for the character -- it's about making the character more or less ineffectual against opponents his or her level, and thus making that character become quickly unplayable. Sure, against creatures half his or her level, the character is great and quite impressive, but how many campaigns are focused on a level 20 character beating on a level 10 opponent?
Edit: If you want to make the Avangion process more stringing, bump up the Knowledge(arcana), Knowledge(psionics), Psicraft, Spellcraft, and other such skill requirements. But don't raise the Psionic Power Level requirement -- that does the opposite of what you are intending.
... so maybe I'm turning a feather into a cockatrice, but I think that on paper some "enlightened" souls will think "this is horribly broken! are they on crack?" Thus I'd prefer the +1 effective level approach, and then give the Avangion PrC a class feature akin to the Veiled One PrC's Spell Archive to give it more spells.
So are you saying that I am unenlightened? Well I will have you know that me and Buddha are close chums :D Do not make me unleash the Hack'em Masters on you Jon- that have been upgraded with the ability to resist lightning bolts, flensing strikes, and their most powerful ability is Sarcasm Immunity!!! That kind of empties your quiver there Jon :D
Anyway...
If you would, please explain how knowing more spells to cast in anyway makes you more powerful. I know that it gives you a wider range of options, but as for increasing your power, well I think not so much. But with limited numbers of spell slots, knowing one or two additional spells is not really that much of a bonus.
Now here is an interesting idea- what if the Avangion was able to spontaneously cast some of their spells? If that was an ability of theirs then know more spells IS a handy idea. Now following up with the spontaneous casting- maybe it could be done like Epic spells 'X' skill divided by 5 or 10 is the number of spells or levels worth of spells they can spontaneously cast.
If you do not like that then just spontaneously cast them, maybe make it like a psionic enchantment that they can expend X number of psp's to draw the mystic knowledge from their mind and cast the spell as if they had prepared it. This is kind of self balancing because now they have less power points to spend.
Following this thought train- if this ability were to be put in place then I think ranks of Autohypnosis should be added to the requirements of the Avangion PrC.
I get it, but unless you want to go gestalt the base PHB classes are not going to ever yield a truly viable AB according to your arguement.
Which is why we have this compromise -- the character has a certain amount of psionic powers available -- up to level 6 ability, while the character has the full magic ability. The mechanics work, everything fits, and it functions well. If you want, I can explain how (once again) this all works mechanically, and why it makes sense, and even why it's extremely close to how WotC wanted conversions from 2E multiclass characters to function.
Once again -- if you want a harder path for Avangions, don't raise the Power Level requirement -- that only hurts them. While yes, it's important for Advanced Beings to have magic & psionics -- let's not make the characters extremely ineffectual.
Now here is an interesting idea- what if the Avangion was able to spontaneously cast some of their spells? If that was an ability of theirs then know more spells IS a handy idea. Now following up with the spontaneous casting- maybe it could be done like Epic spells 'X' skill divided by 5 or 10 is the number of spells or levels worth of spells they can spontaneously cast.
If you do not like that then just spontaneously cast them, maybe make it like a psionic enchantment that they can expend X number of psp's to draw the mystic knowledge from their mind and cast the spell as if they had prepared it. This is kind of self balancing because now they have less power points to spend.
Following this thought train- if this ability were to be put in place then I think ranks of Autohypnosis should be added to the requirements of the Avangion PrC.
Well.... my original plan with Psionic Enchantments (and sort of the focus of it all that somehow got buried along the development process) was the idea of being able to mix Psionics and Magic -- using Power Points to augment Spells (above and beyond the capped limits of the spell usually) -- making it so that the same sort of flexability there is with powers, could be applied to spells. Using power points to be able to recall a prepared spell would be another interesting idea along that same train of thinking, and something which I think *could* be somewhat exclusive to Avangions even...
So are you saying that I am unenlightened? Well I will have you know that me and Buddha are close chums Do not make me unleash the Hack'em Masters on you Jon- that have been upgraded with the ability to resist lightning bolts, flensing strikes, and their most powerful ability is Sarcasm Immunity!!! That kind of empties your quiver there Jon
What? You mean I actually have to use reason in an argument, or perhaps even logic? Don't underestimate sarcasm - tact is for people who aren't witty enough to be sarcastic. Also, sarcasm is a free service we offer. There, I managed to quote both my refrigerator magnets. Cake for me? :D
This is debateable. Dragon Kings was full of typos and errata. Later 2e Dark Sun material also gives a variety contradictory information. Some offical sources show Dragons with the full compliment of psionic powers (namely Dregoth, in the revised campaign setting), others do not (Beyond the prism pentad, but this contains other glaring errors as well).
While some later material contradicted it..... specifically city by the silt sea..... throughout the dragon kings book it focused on the fact that the dragons took a short cut and while they had a powerful source for their arcane magic (ie animal life) it was quite specific that the avangions were more potent in the psionic arena than the dragons were. So when looking at sources I am going to personally look more at the book specifically designed for the creation of dragon PC's.
And on the complement of psionic powers .... remember there were ways to gain powers over and above the ones you gained in the psionicist class. So them showing one dragon with more powers than dragon normally have, is not nessacarily a thing changing the base rules.
And xlor what I was recommending was making the power requirement be 7th not 9th..... I agree with you that some should be able to take it without requiring a PrC. But to be honest a psychic warrior in no way fits with the concept beind an avangion that leaves behind the abilities of the body to the more esoteric abilities...... that is a good reason to up the power level requirement. To prevent the psychic warrior, as while I agree it is quite appropriate for a dragon, it does not fit the fluff.
And taking it up to 7th does not make it that much of a change. Heck the practiced spellcaster feat more than makes up for the difference.
And I agree on the weakness on the 3.x multiclassing rules..... that was why I totally redid them in my d20 system that I sent the playtest out on.
oh and Cerberys..... not only were you requiring a standard PrC for you to make a viable avangion in your example..... you were also using a dragon magazine one. And I for one, do not use most of the PrC's in my campaigns. As they normally are overpowered vs. standard classes and PrC's. And requiring third party rules for the base system to work is not a good design issue, as athas.org cannot refference that PrC in their works, nor list it in the official writeups of characters. As they do not have the copywrite on it.
What? You mean I actually have to use reason in an argument, or perhaps even logic? Don't underestimate sarcasm - tact is for people who aren't witty enough to be sarcastic. Also, sarcasm is a free service we offer. There, I managed to quote both my refrigerator magnets. Cake for me? :D
I would love some cake, but there is always room for sushi. I like long walks but settled for cat. Sunshine is bright and bubble gum.
And xlor what I was recommending was making the power requirement be 7th not 9th..... I agree with you that some should be able to take it without requiring a PrC. But to be honest a psychic warrior in no way fits with the concept beind an avangion that leaves behind the abilities of the body to the more esoteric abilities...... that is a good reason to up the power level requirement. To prevent the psychic warrior, as while I agree it is quite appropriate for a dragon, it does not fit the fluff.
And taking it up to 7th does not make it that much of a change. Heck the practiced spellcaster feat more than makes up for the difference.
I dunno if we should mechanically "force" Psychic Warriors from being able to become Avangions. Honestly, I think that a Psychic Warrior would be silly to become an Avangion, due to the distinct lack of physical capabilities -- but I'm not certain the mechanics in this case should idiot-proof the Avangion. I say that if a Psychic Warrior really wants to become an Avangion, more power to him. He's just not gonna really be all that great -- and would probably do better devoting himself to something other than Avangionhood.
And I agree on the weakness on the 3.x multiclassing rules..... that was why I totally redid them in my d20 system that I sent the playtest out on.
Well, I'm keeping it in my own personal Dark Sun campaigns, but I've been looking for some significant changes to how magic works for my homebrew campaign setting. I'm thinking of integrating it with the Feat system, and also having the mechanics be a lot more open-ended -- let people mix and match their abilities to make for a variety of effects possible, rather than a limited list of specified spells.
the avangion can be made more exclusive, so as to only allow psions, in other ways than upping the power level requirement - which i'll agree w/ xlor on, about being a bad idea. by simply adding requirements pertaining to powers and/or skills only accessible by a psion, you effectively eliminate the chance a psychic warrior could become one - or at least make it difficult enough so as to disuade any who might try.
That's what I'd be more in favor of. Of course we also have to consider the Wilder in this -- and a Psychic Warrior can concievably learn any power a Wilder can (up to 6th level). Plus, there really aren't any "exclusive" skills in the system any more... Maybe something about the amount of power points the character has? (but that's probably unheardof and would be a completely new mechanic to attempt to develop)
what I'd be more in favor of. Of course we also have to consider the Wilder in this -- and a Psychic Warrior can concievably learn any power a Wilder can (up to 6th level). Plus, there really aren't any "exclusive" skills in the system any more... Maybe something about the amount of power points the character has? (but that's probably unheardof and would be a completely new mechanic to attempt to develop)
To clarify, I was more meaning to select a skill and set the rank requirement higher than what a psy. war. could easily reach, but a simpler solution would be to simply require a 6th level discipline power (ie, only those on the discipline lists). This does restrict a wilder as well, but another solution could easily be put in place to allow them. Not sure on how I feel about a wilder being an avangion, though. Not particularly for or against the idea.
To clarify, I was more meaning to select a skill and set the rank requirement higher than what a psy. war. could easily reach, but a simpler solution would be to simply require a 6th level discipline power (ie, only those on the discipline lists). This does restrict a wilder as well, but another solution could easily be put in place to allow them. Not sure on how I feel about a wilder being an avangion, though. Not particularly for or against the idea.
Well, with both the Psychic Warrior and the Wilder, we're dealing with unknown territory. The funny thing is -- the connection that Athas.org brought up between the old Mercinary Psionicist kit and the Psychic Warrior would tend to lean more in favor of letting a Psychic Warrior make the choice to become an Avangion I would think. I'm actually kind of against restricting someone's freedom of choice, even though such a character might not be the optimal pick for Avangion, I say that should be a choice that the Players get to make, and as rules developers, we shouldn't be making that kind of decision for them. Besides, who's to say that there isn't a creative enough player out there who can take a Psychic Warrior/Preserver character, and roleplay out the hard decision for the undertaking. After all, such a character wouldn't be overpowered. In fact, it would make a character who potentially is weaker than other Avangions because one of that character's primary options in combat would be stripped away (physical capabilities), and would be left with their spellcasting and relatively meager manifesting.
I say let's just leave the option there for both Wilders and Psychic Warriors. Make it possibly more difficult, but not completely impossible. I mean, a Psychic Warrior/Preserver who's been developing some high skill ranks in a number of skills, plus may have had to spend a feat or two to attain necessary requirements that may have been accessable to Psions or Wilders more easily, would be a very dedicated person. So possibly the ability to manifest one or two 6th level powers from the Wilder/Psion list that a Psychic Warrior normally wouldn't be able to (and make them powers that "make sense" for the Avangion of course), throw in something like 30 ranks in Spellcraft, Psicraft, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (psionics), and maybe even something like 15 or so ranks in Knowledge (nature), and you're talking about setup that deters all but the most dedicated of Psychic Warriors.
Hahaha, the stuff from dragon magazine is considered 3rd party ? I thought it was in line with the D&D dev teams... damn, well there goes that PrC.
Actually, the magazine articles are published by Paizo, not Wizards of the Coast. Don't mix up the two companies. Even if it was Wizards of the Coast, a good portion of the materials they have released are relatively inaccessable due to them not being Open Game Content. In fact, WotC tends to be the number one publisher of non-OGC d20 System books (since they own the Trademark and such, they aren't required to follow it like everyone else is).
As a side note noone ever really gave an answer but do most of you guys allow infinite levels or cap a characters lvl at some point ?
Actually, I had asked if you would clarify what you mean. I think I understand the question now, so I'm going to give it a shot. For my campaigns, we play them until we're tired of them and move on. Some times, the characters get to level 16 or so. Other times, they get to somewhere around level 35 or so. I get kinda burned out with the epic stuff after a while, because constructing Epic encounters can really be tiresome. So eventually, the campaigns "peter out". But conceivably, my players could play their characters to whatever level they desire (as long as I can keep coming up with things for them to do).
Hahaha, the stuff from dragon magazine is considered 3rd party ? I thought it was in line with the D&D dev teams... damn, well there goes that PrC. As a side note noone ever really gave an answer but do most of you guys allow infinite levels or cap a characters lvl at some point ?
Actually xlor already got the two points I was making..... Dragon magazine is Paizo NOT Wizards of the Coast, and while much of it is considered official.... it is official optional rules and not open game content. Which removes us from being able to put it into the darksun epic rules. In peoples personal games, with permission from their DM, they can use that PrC..... but not without.
I still say restricting it to level 7 powers would be a good idea. Oh and restricting it to requiring a disciplines level 6 power in no way prevents a wilder or psychic warrior from taking the PrC..... the feat epic expanded knowledge allows them to get around that restriction.
Actually xlor already got the two points I was making..... Dragon magazine is Paizo NOT Wizards of the Coast, and while much of it is considered official.... it is official optional rules and not open game content. Which removes us from being able to put it into the darksun epic rules. In peoples personal games, with permission from their DM, they can use that PrC..... but not without.
I still say restricting it to level 7 powers would be a good idea. Oh and restricting it to requiring a disciplines level 6 power in no way prevents a wilder or psychic warrior from taking the PrC..... the feat epic expanded knowledge allows them to get around that restriction.
EPIC EXPANDED KNOWLEDGE [EPIC, PSIONIC]
You learn another power.
Prerequisites: Character level 21st, ability to manifest powers of the normal maximum power level in at least one psionic class.
Benefit: You learn one additional power at any level up to the highest level of power you can manifest. You can choose any power, even one that is part of another discipline’s list or another class’s list.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time, you learn one new power at any level up to the highest level of power you can manifest.
How does this feat allow a psychic warrior to qualify for the Avangion if the requirements are raised to 7th level powers? The psy warrior can only mainfest 6th level powers max (the highest level they can manifest) and they would not be able to select a 7th level power from the psion/wilder list.
I have been thinking about this situation and think 7th level powers should be the minimun- which would only disallow the psychic warrior from becoming one and not the wilrder (as they can manifest 9th level powers).
How does this feat allow a psychic warrior to qualify for the Avangion if the requirements are raised to 7th level powers? The psy warrior can only mainfest 6th level powers max (the highest level they can manifest) and they would not be able to select a 7th level power from the psion/wilder list.
I have been thinking about this situation and think 7th level powers should be the minimun- which would only disallow the psychic warrior from becoming one and not the wilrder (as they can manifest 9th level powers).
the confusion is in that you were seeing the following two things as on idea..... they are seperate.
I still say restricting it to level 7 powers would be a good idea.
(which is what I personally want)
Oh and restricting it to requiring a disciplines level 6 power in no way prevents a wilder or psychic warrior from taking the PrC..... the feat epic expanded knowledge allows them to get around that restriction.
(which was what other people had suggested)
How does this feat allow a psychic warrior to qualify for the Avangion if the requirements are raised to 7th level powers? The psy warrior can only mainfest 6th level powers max (the highest level they can manifest) and they would not be able to select a 7th level power from the psion/wilder list.
I have been thinking about this situation and think 7th level powers should be the minimun- which would only disallow the psychic warrior from becoming one and not the wilrder (as they can manifest 9th level powers).
the confusion is in that you were seeing the following two things as on idea..... they are seperate.
I still say restricting it to level 7 powers would be a good idea.
(which is what I personally want)
Oh and restricting it to requiring a disciplines level 6 power in no way prevents a wilder or psychic warrior from taking the PrC..... the feat epic expanded knowledge allows them to get around that restriction.
(which was what other people had suggested)
I still have yet to hear a good, solid reason that Psychic Warriors can't become Avangions. I mean, seriously.... is there some sort of bizarre balance issue that will make them uber-powerful as Avangions with their lack of physical combat ability?
I mean... yea.... Psychic Warriors aren't able to reach higher level psionic powers. But seriously, it's gonna be rough for them to actually be one -- even the most dedicated "munchkin" player won't be likely to become a Psychic Warrior Avangion. Until there is a good solid case put forth that can show the absolute merit and necessity of taking the option away from Psychic Warriors... I'm gonna fight against it. I just don't see why we need to change the mechanic like that, especially if it is for the explicit purpose of banning Psychic Warriors from being able to become Avangions without any real valid reason why this can't happen.
Like I said before -- if anything, the Psychic Warrior-version of an Avangion would be potentially weaker than others, due to the significant lack of psionic ability. That alone will persuade (sp?) people from wanting to go that route -- and will make them a very, very rare kind of Avangion (like Avangions are common to begin with).
For the Advanced Being, psionics are a tool to use to boost magic capabilities. Despite what the old 2e mechanics may have shown about needing to have a full grasp and mastery of psionics -- the setting itself tends to lean that psionics are simply used as a tool to further their mastery of magic.
I want less with the bandwagon "it should be 7th level powers to get rid of Psychic Warriors" and more with the reasons that Psychic Warriors cannot become Avangions.
At this point looking over all the data I would laugh as a DM if someone was playing a PW and trying to become one, and would go ahead and allow it since it's not benefitting them all that much if they do become one and are easy roadkill once they do.
Aside from the D&D mechanic of having to kill/vanquish/scare away/solve things and puzzles and situations, the fluff material in novels and short stories depicts preservers as rarely using their spells so as to minimize tentations which could lead to addiction and eventual corruption into a defiler.
You get the feeling many a preserver believes - sincerly or not - that their personal mastery over preserving arcane magic serves but one purpose, that of opposing defilers and their magic's effects upon the world; if defilers were to dissapear, many such preservers believe they would choose to cease using their spells.
In a less drastic stance, a wise preserver (a potential avangion) - like Amiska, Nerad, or Korgunard were - would recognize the infinite diversity of psionics and its nature-friendly effects upon the world, and adopt it as a way to shell out power at enemies and situations so as to keep from over-using preserving arcane magic and run the risks I mentionned above.
Thus I belive, or rather feel in my gut, that wannabe avangions should and ought to be required to have higher than 6th-level power requirements, in effect making a statement that the avangion is one of the most psionic-centered (thus most nature-friendly) of the advanced beings.
in prior editions Avangions were as powerfull as straight class psionicists in terms of the number of powers and everything else, in addition to their magic. Unlike dragons which gained significantly fewer powers.
Avangions increase in mental stats, self knowledge, and understanding. As expressed in 2nd edition by the increases in wisdom and the like.
Avangions leave behind the physical nature to a more ethereal butterfly like form...... this is the antithis of the psychic warrior class and the powers from their list. (while a dragon would benefit from this attitude and the powers that make up the very core of a psychic warrior, they become useless to a avangion...... and since the power selection of a psychic character makes up the very attitude and basis of them.... this becomes quite important.)
by the definition of a pychic warrior from the expanded psionics handbook...... "With mental and physical energy working in unison, the psychic warrior strives towards martial perfection." That is the exact opposite of what an avangion works towards.
To be honest for a character to try and combine these two concepts would require either them to multiclass into a new PrC that specifically allows for this. (kind of like a psychic equivelent of the sublime chord PrC from the complete arcane.... would be really interesting way to take a psychic warrior in my opinion.) Or they would need to take levels in either psion or wilder (or erudite if you use that class.)
BTW I have no problems with a wilder becoming a avangion, as to be honest they are another form of self discovery..... just one embracing the emotional state instead of the intellectual..... but still an inwardly focussed class..... not an external focussed one like the psychic warrior.
okay reasons psychic warriors do not fit the concept of an avangion..... lets see.
Those are all reasons why it would be foolish for a PW to even pursue the idea of bcoming an Avangion, but it's not enough to adjust the prerequisites in order to stop them from becoming one, therefore making wilders and psions that make much better Avangions weaker because of the harsher requirements.
If Avangions are just as powerful as straight class psions then that to me means the Avangion PrC progression needs to reflect that, not the power requirements.
Those are all reasons why it would be foolish for a PW to even pursue the idea of bcoming an Avangion, but it's not enough to adjust the prerequisites in order to stop them from becoming one, therefore making wilders and psions that make much better Avangions weaker because of the harsher requirements.
If Avangions are just as powerful as straight class psions then that to me means the Avangion PrC progression needs to reflect that, not the power requirements.
I tend to agree with this. If a character goes the route of the PW to become avangion let them. They'll be far from being the greatest avangion but would be their own doing.
I tend to agree that a wilder and a psion could both qualify for avangionhood, while I am a bit sceptic towards the psychic warrior. Seker has listed some reasons, and I agree with those - I also understand Xlorep's arguments for psychic warriors becoming crippled were they to choose the path of the avangion. I always figured the avangion was a vessel of peace and harmony - in which the martial prowess of the psychic warrior seems unfitting, though perhaps a psychic warrior could turn away from the physical aspects and become a being of harmony and peace... I'm not convinced, though.
That brings up an inherent problem I've been trying to avoid -- Avangions are not necessarily good -- just like Preservers are not necessarily good. Avangions are developing into powerful beings much as how a Dragon does -- but the Avangion is trying to not wreck the world in the process of achieving that power.
Even so.... how about this.... a character who starts as a Psychic Warrior, and then has a change of heart, develops as a Preserver, and ends up being able to meet the requirements for Avangion (6th level powers I mean). Now.... is it right for someone who has developed down a path of preserer, dedicated like that, to be inable to work towards to crux of his focus just because he chose Psychic Warrior to begin with?
And what about those who don't like to fight, but can? Like a Psychic Warrior who would prefer to solve problems without combat, but is still able to defend himself if the needs arise? Let's not steriotype all the various motivations players might have their characters operate under when looking at this.
Mechanically, we currently have a system that while not perfect, is the one with the minimal effects to the individual's spellcasting & psionics, while being still more stringent than technically the rules would warrent (technically, we should have 5th level powers for both Dragons and Avangions, because then you could end up with a level 26 Wizard/Psion, which would match up with the official 2e -> 3/3.5e conversion pamphlet's requisite of taking the full levels for the first class, and then 1/3 of the levels for each successive class for multiclassed/dual classed characters from 2E; I didn't lower the requirement there, in fact, we're already 2 levels higher than that because of the 6th level powers)... This system is something that could function across the board for all Advanced Beings -- and I'd recommend it stays like that. If we start on a whim raising or lowering these requirements we just end up with extra complications, and most likely weaker characters.
Also -- don't forget, the Psychic Warrior already has a much harder and longer path to becoming an Advanced Being. 6th level powers comes to a Psion at 11th level; 12th for a Wilder. It's not until 16th level that a Psychic Warrior can start on it -- that's 5 extra levels to work on (compared to PSion; 4 more compared to Wilder).
I would suggest a large helping of psi and arcane benifits to the avaigon but i would also like to see more of a mixing of arcane and psi abilities like being able to blend and mix spells and powers so like being able to cast a fireball and manifest a desenitgrate at the same time and mix the properties of the two so that the new form would have the area range and damage of a fireball but desintegrating the damage area and up to a 15D6 make it epic if you want or an epic ability to mix like that on the fly though it leaves alot to the dm's judgment which i know wotc doesn't like to do but.. i realize from a mechanic aspect it wouldn't be eazy to make a general rule to govern it so it may not happen. Though the idea i brought up before and someone brough it or something simular to it in this thread. you chould augment spells with psp's or gain psp's by burning a spell and getting the equivilant PSP's for the level as if it was a power like a level 1 spell would give a number of PSP that a level 1 power uses and up from there.
One thing I personally would really like just to give more playability to the avaigon is the ability to change its form as per the shape change spell from 2E as a inate or spell like abillity. The reeason i ask for this say a limit of 3 times a day or something is just because the playability on a butterfly is what?.... a 2 maybe a 3 out of 10 you becaome a huge blip on the radars of the dragons and probly the order as they want psionic purity. but besides that how do you play a butterfly? can you go to a city with out being discovered with out using an arcane spell? wouldn't a templar even a random one beable to detect magic or use true seeing to discover you? not that you couldn't survive but it makes palyability hard with out using arcane to alter you're apperance. so like i said the abillity to change as per the shapechange descrition from the 2E shapechange spell would help out PC wanting to play them at the 4th level and up changes.
In the natrual form though they should get some strong SR/PR due to the power/light that they are said to give off (the well spring of power). they should also atleast increase to a higher level of psionics than a dragon can.
I agree that PW are so far behind the curve power wise that there really is no reason to make it harder to become an avagon is hardly worth the effort of making the mechanic or changing the prereques for the avaigon, however i wouldn't alow a pc to make one as a dm just becuse the fun factor would be so low they wouldn't want play it for long.
Aye, I say leave it to the DM's and players to determine this, don't build a mechanic that weakens all avangions just to force the decision on everyone. Personally, I can name a handful of players I've had who would take the opportunity to become an Avangion as a Psychic Warrior, and would play it off quite well
I would suggest a large helping of psi and arcane benifits to the avaigon but i would also like to see more of a mixing of arcane and psi abilities like being able to blend and mix spells and powers so like being able to cast a fireball and manifest a desenitgrate at the same time and mix the properties of the two so that the new form would have the area range and damage of a fireball but desintegrating the damage area and up to a 15D6 make it epic if you want or an epic ability to mix like that on the fly though it leaves alot to the dm's judgment which i know wotc doesn't like to do but.. i realize from a mechanic aspect it wouldn't be eazy to make a general rule to govern it so it may not happen. Though the idea i brought up before and someone brough it or something simular to it in this thread. you chould augment spells with psp's or gain psp's by burning a spell and getting the equivilant PSP's for the level as if it was a power like a level 1 spell would give a number of PSP that a level 1 power uses and up from there.
You're blurring between the Psionic Enchantments (which are univrsal to all Advanced Beings), and what an Avangion could do. Not a bad idea you have there, but mechanically, I think we should make that distinction between the two. Psionic Enchantments (as I've designed them to be the blending of magic and psionics) should be universal between all Advanced Beings -- things they all can do by virtue of being Advanced Beings. Now... the Avangion should have some interesting advantages above and beyond that, to be sure.
One thing I personally would really like just to give more playability to the avaigon is the ability to change its form as per the shape change spell from 2E as a inate or spell like abillity. The reeason i ask for this say a limit of 3 times a day or something is just because the playability on a butterfly is what?.... a 2 maybe a 3 out of 10 you becaome a huge blip on the radars of the dragons and probly the order as they want psionic purity. but besides that how do you play a butterfly? can you go to a city with out being discovered with out using an arcane spell? wouldn't a templar even a random one beable to detect magic or use true seeing to discover you? not that you couldn't survive but it makes palyability hard with out using arcane to alter you're apperance. so like i said the abillity to change as per the shapechange descrition from the 2E shapechange spell would help out PC wanting to play them at the 4th level and up changes.
In the natrual form though they should get some strong SR/PR due to the power/light that they are said to give off (the well spring of power). they should also atleast increase to a higher level of psionics than a dragon can.
I'm not fond of this for several reasons:
[list][*]The "shapeshift" idea should be more in the realm of the Divine Advanced Beings -- wher such things were in 2E. They should have the ability to switch between two "states" or "forms" -- Elemental Clerics can become a living, walking, breathing part of their chosen Elemental plane or appear and operate much like they did before becoming Advanced Beings. Spirits of the Land should be able to be their full spirit powerful form when within the Spirits' territory, while able to drop that and appear somewhat normal outside of that territory.
An avangion, while a giant gossamer-winged butterfly, would be far more interesting and fun to play as that -- what with telekinetic powers, constant aura effects, probably supersaturated with magical and psionic power (I'm thinking that they might be able to "regenerate" power points through the day, recall prepared spells, as well as a multitude of psi-like and spell-like abilities. I mean, we're talking about basically a flying, highly mobile, and extremely difficult to kill powerhouse of energy. So what if Dragons hunt you -- by the point you are the butterfly, you could take them on, shatter the obsidian in them, would be far more maneuverable, and have a constant, continual wellspring of power that a Dragon wouldn't be able to match. I'm sorry, but if a 10th-stage Dragon went against a 10th-stage Avangion, while it would be a pretty even fight, I'd put money on the Avangion any day. Mainly because the Dragon would have more reliance on physical combat, and the Avangion tends to be resiliant against such things. The Avangion would also tend to be a bit more powerful in the magic and psionic department.
That said, I'll have to, once again, agree with Xlor on this one.
Aye, I say leave it to the DM's and players to determine this, don't build a mechanic that weakens all avangions just to force the decision on everyone. Personally, I can name a handful of players I've had who would take the opportunity to become an Avangion as a Psychic Warrior, and would play it off quite well.
Although, I can see the point of restricting the Psychic Warrior - with the inherent antithesis - I say, for those who roll play the part, leave the option open.
Dragons are extremely physical beings.... so psychic warrior fits them. Same with Elemental clerics to an extent. But Avangions are totally the opposite..... they are more like the embodied PrC than the other advanced beings.... as all the others have physical changes that make them stronger in their other forms..... while Avangions literally become weaker.
In addition as I suggested in my last post, to represent a psychic warrior that takes such a drastic change in the very concept of a psychic warrior, I reccomend creating a prestige class similiar to the sublime chord PrC of the bards, for the psychic warriors that shows a devotion to the more powerfull powers of the mind. (it would be easy to make, and names such as psionicist, or Academy Guardian comes to mind as fitting)
And that kind of PrC would be really good not just for would be avangions, but to represent the more martial psionic users, or ones with fewer powers, that have a change of heart later in their carreers and seek out a stricter method of learning. And could even be a good way for Wilders to gain larger numbers of powers later in their carreers.
Lets see, the very nature of an Avangion is one of contemplation (not ness. peace and harmony) and the idea of the mind over all..... in the form of arcane magic and psionics. This is the exact oposite both fluff and mechanically speaking of the psychic warriors. Who use psionics as a boost for their physical abilities ..... again by both fluff AND mechanics.
Dragons are extremely physical beings.... so psychic warrior fits them. Same with Elemental clerics to an extent. But Avangions are totally the opposite..... they are more like the embodied PrC than the other advanced beings.... as all the others have physical changes that make them stronger in their other forms..... while Avangions literally become weaker.
In addition as I suggested in my last post, to represent a psychic warrior that takes such a drastic change in the very concept of a psychic warrior, I reccomend creating a prestige class similiar to the sublime chord PrC of the bards, for the psychic warriors that shows a devotion to the more powerfull powers of the mind. (it would be easy to make, and names such as psionicist, or Academy Guardian comes to mind as fitting)
And that kind of PrC would be really good not just for would be avangions, but to represent the more martial psionic users, or ones with fewer powers, that have a change of heart later in their carreers and seek out a stricter method of learning. And could even be a good way for Wilders to gain larger numbers of powers later in their carreers.
That kind of PrC would potentially break the system -- because without having the Psychic Warrior suddenly being capable of learning from another power list (and that would be quite unpresedented in every way, shape, or form, unless the PsyWar starts from scratch and then the PrC is a moot point) you're still left with the max of 6th-level powers for them.
It still doesn't explain why a Psychic Warrior absolutely cannot become an Avangion. Making the Avangions exclude Psychic Warriors completely, and weakening the other Avangions in the process needs a bit more of an effort in the explanation than "Because Psychic Warriors are Martial!" arguement. The problem with coming up with such a case is -- there was no such thing as a Psychic Warrior in 2E. It's new territory that didn't exist back then, period. Now, there is something that did exist back then, which Athas.org has made reference to in the Psychic Warrior class description for DS3 -- the Mercenary Psionicist. Now, was there anything stopping a 2E Mercenary Psionicist kit from being able to become an Avangion? I don't think so. As the connection is already established for DS3 then, I say that the Psychic Warrior should not be any more restricted on this than the old 2E Mercenary Psionicist kit was in 2E.
Plus, you seem intent on "steriotyping" all Psychic Warriors and the personal motivations of every single character that all players make who are Psychic Warriors into a "big brute fighter" kind of perception, which is not necessarily the case. The reluctant warrior concept (which can be a quite common "roleplaying" concept) springs to mind -- one who yes, has the training, but would prefer to not use it as such. Such a character could very likely fall smack into the middle of a Psychic Warrior/Preserver combo. Now, such a character could quite easily be focused on contemplation, and have a desire to work towards becoming an Avangion. By mechanically restricting such things, then such a character couldn't do what would naturally make sense for that character to do.
I'm sorry, but there's still been nothing that has been presented to even remotely weaken my stance that the Psychic Warrior could potentially work towards being an Avangion. Remember, we're not exactly talking about a common creature here -- Avangions are arguably the least populous of all of the Advanced Beings (esp. since it's completely conceivable that there's Cleric & Druid AB's in disguise all over the world -- the Divine Magic Users have had a head start on the whole Advanced Being thing for quite a while). So it's not like there's going to be a sudden population explosion of Psychic Warrior Advanced Beings.
In fact, I'd bet the only ones that would potentially exist, are player-created. Now, the very concept is such that most players will turn their noses up in the air and not be interested in the idea. But a select few may very well be intrigued by the possibility. Who are we to dictate this to DM's, when it really is a matter of choice. If the DM's don't want it in their campaigns, they can simply state that Psychic Warriors can't become Avangions. If the DM's want it to be a possibility, then I say we should honor that, and let them. Once again, this is unknown territory, since the Psychic Warrior didn't exist in 2E.
And... I'd personally prefer that certain aspects of the requirements for Advanced Beings remains somewhat universal in structure. It makes things far more simple.
That kind of PrC would potentially break the system -- because without having the Psychic Warrior suddenly being capable of learning from another power list (and that would be quite unpresedented in every way, shape, or form, unless the PsyWar starts from scratch and then the PrC is a moot point) you're still left with the max of 6th-level powers for them.
Xlor, did you actually bother to read what I posted, several times..... I said a psionic prestige class that is based off the Sublime chord from complete arcane. (Sublime Chord is a bard class that allows the bard to learn spells of level 4th - 9th taken from either the bard and the sorcerer/wizard list at the expense of some of their other bardic abilities and a lower BAB, etc...) This could be quite easily adapted to a psionic method and would no more break the psychic warrior than the sublime chord did the bard. This has precedent on the arcane side and can quite easily be transferred over.
And with proper feats an epic psychic warrior already has access to any power from any list up to their max power level. In fact expanded knowledge and epic expanded knowledge are designed, in part, to allow them to take any power they want. (and any psionic character able to manifest 4th level powers, or 5th if they do not have access to the psion/wilder list and spend the expanded knowledge feat, that is smart will be taking psychic reformation which gives them basically what ever power they need for a slight exp and time cost.)
It still doesn't explain why a Psychic Warrior absolutely cannot become an Avangion. Making the Avangions exclude Psychic Warriors completely, and weakening the other Avangions in the process needs a bit more of an effort in the explanation than "Because Psychic Warriors are Martial!" arguement. The problem with coming up with such a case is -- there was no such thing as a Psychic Warrior in 2E. It's new territory that didn't exist back then, period. Now, there is something that did exist back then, which Athas.org has made reference to in the Psychic Warrior class description for DS3 -- the Mercenary Psionicist. Now, was there anything stopping a 2E Mercenary Psionicist kit from being able to become an Avangion? I don't think so. As the connection is already established for DS3 then, I say that the Psychic Warrior should not be any more restricted on this than the old 2E Mercenary Psionicist kit was in 2E.
There is a false assumption in your argument here...... the mercenary psionicist is not the same thing as a psychic warrior. They still had full access to even the most powerful of powers, a psychic warrior does not. A mercenary psionicist could also be a full member of the Order, in 2nd ed, are you telling me that a psychic warrior would be made a full member as well? I personally think not. (as they would consider such a person to be like a child..... like all other lesser psionicists in 2nd ed.) In 3.x terms a mercenary psionicist is capable of learning epic powers (ie psionic version of epic spells from the ELH) whereas by the epic rules a psychic warrior cannot.
To be honest we took some license to make the psychic warriors to be able to be dragons, but that was to fit the fluff and the shortcuts that make up the defiler advanced beings. Which by definition in 2nd ed (as per Dragon Kings, the book on "epic" scale characters) were weaker psionicly than the other advanced beings. There however is no fluff that likewise shows a weaker form of psionics on the Avangion.
Plus, you seem intent on "steriotyping" all Psychic Warriors and the personal motivations of every single character that all players make who are Psychic Warriors into a "big brute fighter" kind of perception, which is not necessarily the case. The reluctant warrior concept (which can be a quite common "roleplaying" concept) springs to mind -- one who yes, has the training, but would prefer to not use it as such. Such a character could very likely fall smack into the middle of a Psychic Warrior/Preserver combo. Now, such a character could quite easily be focused on contemplation, and have a desire to work towards becoming an Avangion. By mechanically restricting such things, then such a character couldn't do what would naturally make sense for that character to do.
Actually I am not stereotyping, so much as going by what is actually written about them, vs. my own opinion of what I would allow in my games. And what you are describing with your reluctant warrior is someone that would not have the mastery of their own mind to actually become a "Master of the Way", which is what is described as needed to become an advanced being. One that became introverted enough to actually begin study into their own mind would end up neglecting the body somewhat..... ie either multiclassing into psion/wilder or a prestige class like what I have suggested.
Oh and technically I could make a sorcerer character in normal D&D that wanted to be the greatest martial artist ever..... and if I took no PrC's he would still get his butt handed to him by a monk half his level in hand to hand. So while it is possible for any character to strive towards any goal..... said goal may not be attainable without a sacrifice. (ie multiclassing to another psionic class or the above mentioned PrC in the case of a psychic warrior wanting to be an Avangion.)
By what is actually written in the exp Psionics Handbook on psychic warriors give emphasis to the developement of the body..... instead of the mind like a psion does. This is actually what is said (though paraphrased on the order) from the very first paragraph of the psychic warriors..... and everything else from the actual book follows this information as to what makes them a psychic warrior instead of a psion. The fact that they are focussed on the body, not the mind. This is the key aspect of the class.
I'm sorry, but there's still been nothing that has been presented to even remotely weaken my stance that the Psychic Warrior could potentially work towards being an Avangion. Remember, we're not exactly talking about a common creature here -- Avangions are arguably the least populous of all of the Advanced Beings (esp. since it's completely conceivable that there's Cleric & Druid AB's in disguise all over the world -- the Divine Magic Users have had a head start on the whole Advanced Being thing for quite a while). So it's not like there's going to be a sudden population explosion of Psychic Warrior Advanced Beings.
In fact, I'd bet the only ones that would potentially exist, are player-created. Now, the very concept is such that most players will turn their noses up in the air and not be interested in the idea. But a select few may very well be intrigued by the possibility. Who are we to dictate this to DM's, when it really is a matter of choice. If the DM's don't want it in their campaigns, they can simply state that Psychic Warriors can't become Avangions. If the DM's want it to be a possibility, then I say we should honor that, and let them. Once again, this is unknown territory, since the Psychic Warrior didn't exist in 2E.
And... I'd personally prefer that certain aspects of the requirements for Advanced Beings remains somewhat universal in structure. It makes things far more simple.
I think I have made my position clear above but I will re-iterate.
I can see a psychic warrior becoming an Avangion, but I see a requirement of a PrC to do so, as you are talking about a MASSIVE change in focus of the very core idea of the class.
Mercenary psionicists are not psychic warriors..... they are similiar but not quite..... in 2nd ed terms a psychic warrior is more of a multiclass fighter/psioncist (possibly with the mercenary psionicist kit) than a single class character or a Fighter with several wild talents. (just as a wilder could easily represent people with fewer wild talents)
There was a massive difference between dragons and other advanced beings on psionic power, this could easily be represented by the requirements for the class than other ways, as the dragons only lose 1 effective manifester level total in taking the class. So making a universal for all may not be the way to do it.... I reccomend having a universal system with dragons being the exception personally.
And as I said earlier there is precedence for creating a PrC like what I was describing..... and it would fit quite well in the psionic academies of Athas..... something along the lines of what happens when a wild talent (ie a psychic warrior or wilder in 3.x terms) decides to master ther Will and the Way.
And yes, it is a gray area. The details provided as to the background and such for a given class in the XPH (like the Psychic Warrior) are to build ideas from, not fence you into a specific role or position. People should be free to play the class how they want, within the realms of reason of course. And it's not unreasonable for a character to develop down a path that could lead them to Avangion dreams while having Psychic Warrior as their manifester class.
Why can't we have the Avangion and Dragon mirror each other on this? So what if the Psychic Warrior/Preserver/Avangion is not optimal, and would probably suck as an Avangion. I just don't see why it's imperitive to take away that choice. The only way to have the choice, is for Psychic Warriors to be still capable of doing this. Make other requirements extra stringint -- to the point that the Psychic Warrior would really have to make quite the concerted effort to accomplish it, but don't just offhandedly state they can't be one. Because to me, that's just a cop-out.
And I'm sorry, I'm not seeing a massive change in focus here for potential Psychic Warriors. It's not the best nor the optimal direction for them to take, but it's hardly "massive".
Of course few are the people who will play good dragons and evil avangions, but similarly the option should be kept open for someone to play a psychic warrior avangion. There won't be many, but a few will want to.
(Also, as was mentionned, a psychic warrior who later becomes a preserver and casts off his martial ways ought not be penalized in his attempt at becoming an avangion.)
Dragons require 9th level arcane spells and 6th level psionic powers. What if Avangions were to require 6th level spells and 9th level psionic powers?
Stage is yours, gentlemen. :D
I'll say I'm becoming swayed towards using the same requirements for avangions as for dragons. Though, I would like to hear opinions on a different option, which is rather radical - but I'll throw it out for the fun of it. Take it for what it is - it's not my opinion that this is the way to go. Far from it.
Dragons require 9th level arcane spells and 6th level psionic powers. What if Avangions were to require 6th level spells and 9th level psionic powers?
Stage is yours, gentlemen. :D
I was thinking about that very same thing the other night, but didn't think it was a good idea. The requirement of 6th level powers was more or less implemented to allow PW to become dragons at the same level/time that a psion could. What does lowering the requirement to 6th spells for avangions allow? Yes, people are theorizing that avangions are more psionic than magic orientated, but the feel of an epic level being only being able to cast 6th spells doesn't seem...well...all that to epic to me. They're suppose to be casting epic levels "spells" in order to start the metamorphosis after all.
Thats my two bits anyways.
I'll say I'm becoming swayed towards using the same requirements for avangions as for dragons. Though, I would like to hear opinions on a different option, which is rather radical - but I'll throw it out for the fun of it. Take it for what it is - it's not my opinion that this is the way to go. Far from it.
Dragons require 9th level arcane spells and 6th level psionic powers. What if Avangions were to require 6th level spells and 9th level psionic powers?
Stage is yours, gentlemen. :D
If you go this route it would have to be an Epic Power used not an Epic Spell for the transformation. I don't think that is the way to go. The basic requirements I think should be the same for all the AB's no matter what kind they are, even if you introduce new AB's to the setting like an Epic Sun Wizard AB, like a Shadow Giant maybe?!?!
As for PW's becoming avangions sure if that is what a DM and player what to do fine. Dosen't matter if the requirements are 9th level arcane spells and 6th level psionic powers or 9th level arcane spells and 9th level psionic powers, if the player is willing to pay for all the extra levels and any epic feats that the latter requirements need, more power to them then.
Rob.
And you saying the fact that the psychic warrior is focused on the martial/physical over the mind it a matter of opinion... and not something that is actually mecanical fact on the class. Is like saying a figther is not focussed on the physical/martial. This is why I am saying that you are talking about a massive change in focus.
I noticed that you did not respond to the information I supplied about the fact that psychic warriors already have access to any power up to level 6 with proper feats and powers. And how the PrC would not break the system, and that precedance does exist. I assume that means that you see where I am coming from with that now.
Now in my own system for dark sun (the one I sent out as a playtest for people to look over using the d20 modern system revamped seriously) something like a psychic warrior can become an Avangion..... if they have mastered psionics enough, but my system for psionics is totally different so my versions are closer to the old mercenary psionicist than the psychic warrior class.
Okay on to Jon's idea. Nope nope nope..... the advanced beings are specialized in magic..... and use mastery of psionics to supplement them. What you are describing would make the Orders descision on whether or not to kill Advanced beings easy. Because then it is psionics corrupted by magic versus magic being augmented with psionics. Plus you just removed epic spellcasting from the equation with that requirement set.
Possible list:
Tongues (psionic), read thoughts, aura sight, and overland flight (psionic)
[And add the tongues (psionic) to the dragon PrC requirements]
but this is just an idea
Oh and one thing, before we say that Avangions and Dragons should have the same requirements..... they did not even back in Dragon Kings. The Avangion had in addition to all the requirements of a dragon, a higher wisdom requirement and a charisma requirement.
I am sorry xlor, you know how strict I am on fluff interpitations and allowing a psychic warrior into the avangion class is a slippery slope of a grey area..... and I even gave you a way around it. That being a PrC. As I said I have no problems with psychic warrior working towards becoming an avangion as that can be an interesting concept..... however I think that a severe change of focus that great, requires either multiclassing or a PrC. (just like if a fighter or ranger wanted to be a perfect wight [PrC from the ELH] they would either have to take levels in rogue or a PrC like Assasin.... which is basically the level of change you are talking of, because while a fighter can use stealth to some level and could coup de grace a sleeping foe..... it is no where near making them have the requirements for becoming the PrC.)
And you saying the fact that the psychic warrior is focused on the martial/physical over the mind it a matter of opinion... and not something that is actually mecanical fact on the class. Is like saying a figther is not focussed on the physical/martial. This is why I am saying that you are talking about a massive change in focus.
But I don't see it as a severe change of focus. It would be more like a fighter developing for melee combat, or another one developing for ranged combat. or a character of any class, developing a different class, like let's say, Wizard, and levelling it up 17 levels. That's a pretty strong dedication to a "different" type of character. And you're outright saying that in 17 levels, an individual would still have the same "focus" they did when they were leveling as a Psychic Warrior. I think not. You are taking the Psychic Warrior out of context and looking at that independent of the whole. An advanced being is not only a psionic character, but also a spellcaster, as you know. It's really, really not that much of a focus change for such an individual. I have one (or was it two at this point) different conditions where such a character could very well end up wanting to become an Avangion, and your "change of focus" argument had no bering.
I noticed that you did not respond to the information I supplied about the fact that psychic warriors already have access to any power up to level 6 with proper feats and powers. And how the PrC would not break the system, and that precedance does exist. I assume that means that you see where I am coming from with that now.
The PrC would break the system IF it lets them start to develop higher than 6th level powers. And, they can't, if I remember correctly, ever learn a discipline power.
Okay on to Jon's idea. Nope nope nope..... the advanced beings are specialized in magic..... and use mastery of psionics to supplement them. What you are describing would make the Orders descision on whether or not to kill Advanced beings easy. Because then it is psionics corrupted by magic versus magic being augmented with psionics. Plus you just removed epic spellcasting from the equation with that requirement set.
Actually, I'm gonna have to agree with this.
But I don't see it as a severe change of focus. It would be more like a fighter developing for melee combat, or another one developing for ranged combat. or a character of any class, developing a different class, like let's say, Wizard, and levelling it up 17 levels. That's a pretty strong dedication to a "different" type of character. And you're outright saying that in 17 levels, an individual would still have the same "focus" they did when they were leveling as a Psychic Warrior. I think not. You are taking the Psychic Warrior out of context and looking at that independent of the whole. An advanced being is not only a psionic character, but also a spellcaster, as you know. It's really, really not that much of a focus change for such an individual. I have one (or was it two at this point) different conditions where such a character could very well end up wanting to become an Avangion, and your "change of focus" argument had no bering.
Your idea of compairing it to a fighter mastering ranged or melee combat is not an accurate one, xlor. As any fighter excels at both. A psychic warrior while having psionics, it is a secondary feature that enhances their ability for combat like a fighter. Their power list and other abilities mechanically speaking show this.
A better example would be a ranger trying to be a druid.... They are weaker version. Are we planning to make ranger/psions able to become spirits of the land as well? That is where this line of logic is going. And there is no way I will ever say that is a good thing.
The focus on a wizard is casting spells .... at any level
The focus on a fighter is combat..... at any level
The focus of a cleric is both combat and spells in service of their patron..... at any level
The focus of a druid is spells and nature ..... at any level
The focus of a psion is the manipulation of internal energies.... at any level
The focus of a rogue varies..... and they master many paths.... at any level
The classes that combine several aspects of classes are still primarily one of the above over the other.
A paladin is a cross between fighter and cleric..... and balanced between the two.... but mechanically are more of the fighter.
A ranger is the same way.... and again mecahnically more fighter
a bard is a cross between sorcerer/wizard and rogue..... and their spellcasting is a boost too their otehr skills for the most part. (though they are better balanced between the two than any other half class.)
A psychic warrior is a cross between a fighter and a psion, and they are strongly focused towards the physical by the powers they can take as they advance and by the fact that they advance in combat a high as they do. The psionics are a supplement for them. Like spells are for rangers, bards, and paladins. They are not as focussed as a psion or even a wilder. This is the argument. For them to become that focussed would require a class change either to a core or PrC, as the class itself is not focussed enough to warrent what you are saying.
Now on multiclass characters:
A fighter/wizard is focussed on combat and spells.... to varying degrees
A wizard/psion is focussed on powers of the mind and spells...... to varying degrees
A psychic warrior/wizard is focussed on spells and combat enhanced by powers of the mind.... to varying degrees..... that is significantly different than someone who is focussed on powers of the mind.
I accept dragons requiring a lower focus as it is a highly physical PrC and involves alot of shortcuts so having it allow psychic warriors makes it the exception not the rule.
The PrC would break the system IF it lets them start to develop higher than 6th level powers. And, they can't, if I remember correctly, ever learn a discipline power.
In my previous post I mentioned both expanded knowledge and epic expanded knowledge feats which allow a psionic character to learn ANY power, including discipline powers.
And I have refferenced the sublime chord PrC (from complete arcane) for the bard as the example of the kind of PrC I am talking about, in every case. Which allows a bard (who is normally limited to level 6 spells at most) to learn and cast spells of level 4-9 from both the bard and sorcerer/wizard list. And this would be a good PrC to create anyway, to represent the old wild talents that studied psionics later on in their carreer from 2nd ed.
I have been reading through all of the recent posts, and as good as some of the arguments are, I am still unswayed in my opinion that PW's should be restricted from entering into this PrC by using the 7th level power threshold. My reasoning is not something that I can really express in words, I just feel that it is not a good fit with the concept of the Avangion.
In my previous post I mentioned both expanded knowledge and epic expanded knowledge feats which allow a psionic character to learn ANY power, including discipline powers.
I think you are misreading the feats that you are mentioning. The highest level a psychic warrior may ever have within his class is 6th level powers. The two feats specifically state that the chosen power can come from any list, but it cannot exceed the highest level of power you have access to- which is 6th level powers in this case. I thought I had stated this point in one of my fist posts, but maybe I just was not clear enough. If the PW were to take either of those feats, they would not be able to get a 7th level power or anything beyond that=> 6th level powers is the highest they would be able to select from- ever (that is unless they took 13 levels as a psion or wilder they they would get 7th level powers) but those feats DO NOT allow you to take a power of a higher level then your class will allow.
I think you are misreading the feats that you are mentioning. The highest level a psychic warrior may ever have within his class is 6th level powers. The two feats specifically state that the chosen power can come from any list, but it cannot exceed the highest level of power you have access to- which is 6th level powers in this case. I thought I had stated this point in one of my fist posts, but maybe I just was not clear enough. If the PW were to take either of those feats, they would not be able to get a 7th level power or anything beyond that=> 6th level powers is the highest they would be able to select from- ever (that is unless they took 13 levels as a psion or wilder they they would get 7th level powers) but those feats DO NOT allow you to take a power of a higher level then your class will allow.
that post was not saying they could have 7th level or higher powers, I am sorry it came off like that. I was actually responding to Xlor's statements that psychic warriors could not gain discipline powers. My previous posts specified this I did not realize I did not in this one.
I am actually in the camp that says that psychic warriors should not be able to become avangions without making a massive change by either multiclassing into psion/wilder or by making a prestige class like I was suggesting that represents such a massive change in attitude towards psioncs
A more realistic argument is that avangions should be psionically stronger than dragons, but as xlorep has pointed out, requiring a significatly higher level is a manifesting class reduces the overall manifesting power at higher levels.
Personally I think a psychic warrior avangion is not a good idea for a player to pick, but I really can't see any good reason to deny them the chance from the start.
that post was not saying they could have 7th level or higher powers, I am sorry it came off like that. I was actually responding to Xlor's statements that psychic warriors could not gain discipline powers. My previous posts specified this I did not realize I did not in this one.
I am actually in the camp that says that psychic warriors should not be able to become avangions without making a massive change by either multiclassing into psion/wilder or by making a prestige class like I was suggesting that represents such a massive change in attitude towards psioncs
O- well sorry! I was just thinking that you were still on the feat thing saying that it would enable them to take 7th lvl powers- my bad. :embarrass
I say we should just leave it as is- if a PW wants to take this path then more power to them- they will get smacked down because they are worthless but hey, that is what character creation is for- making a new PC when you make a dumb decision. The DM is the one that is in control of the information and could restrict the AB procurement from falling into the players hands if they (the individual DM) sees the path as unfit for that character.
O- well sorry! I was just thinking that you were still on the feat thing saying that it would enable them to take 7th lvl powers- my bad. :embarrass
I say we should just leave it as is- if a PW wants to take this path then more power to them- they will get smacked down because they are worthless but hey, that is what character creation is for- making a new PC when you make a dumb decision. The DM is the one that is in control of the information and could restrict the AB procurement from falling into the players hands if they (the individual DM) sees the path as unfit for that character.
My point exactly.
Regarding my earlier post, no one has mentinoed a reason why a martially oriented psychic warrior can become a psion uncarnate but shouldn't be able to be an avangion. Saying that psychic warriors are martially inclined just isn't a worthwhile excuse to prevent them from being avangions. (By way of comparison, the idea that a wizard/psion should choose to become a combat oriented killing machine is equally ridiculuous, but no one is arguing against psions being dragons.) 3.5e is all about player choice, even if it's a bad choice.
Okay, lets look at psion uncarnate. (it is interesting the name actually denotes who normally will take it)
The psion uncarnate is NOT about mastery of psionics, it is about shedding the body in favor of an incorpreal form. (which is more a matter of making his form out of phase with the normal plane.) Not about mastery of your own mind like avangion is. In fact unlike an Avangion a psion uncarnate actually becomes a heck of alot more capable in physical combat due to the nature of this PrC. Lets see you get to be incorpreal and get to still hurt people in the physical world just fine......
{sarcasm font} hmmmm yeah that sounds sooooo like what an Avangion is doing {/sarcasm font off}
so compairing the two, is totally innaccurate as too who should be able to take them..... as an Avangion, per all prior versions, lose the ability to fight physically in their natural form as they advance. (which is the antithesis of what a psychic warrior does per fluff and mechanics of the PrC) ..... whereas the psion uncarnate actually becomes a more powerfull opponent in physical combat and are harder to hurt in addition. (which several character designs of psychic warriors do fit the idea of incorpreal combat vs corpreal.)
And your comment on psion/wizards not wanting to be combat machines like dragons is somewhat false as well..... as the physical forms of the dragon and the avangion are not the actual goals of the metamorphosis..... those forms are more a side effect of restructuring your body to handle more powerful magic/power. (remember with your average dragon it is the lust for power that drives them onward in the transformation.)
for a defiler/psion the dragon form is more about it being more efficient for accumulating the power that you need for gathering energy for your spells. The combat aspects of it are more about making it more able to reach/gather the energy from animal life than anything else. At least that is what I always got from the fluff and mechanics. the capacity/ability for gathering increased as you advanced in 2nd ed in fact.
A more realistic argument is that avangions should be psionically stronger than dragons, but as xlorep has pointed out, requiring a significatly higher level is a manifesting class reduces the overall manifesting power at higher levels.
Personally I think a psychic warrior avangion is not a good idea for a player to pick, but I really can't see any good reason to deny them the chance from the start.
Actually a higher manifester level requirement means the character will have a slightly lower caster level at higher levels not a lower manifester level..... (if there is any requirement at all..... although with cerebramancer PrC there is NO change in the minimum requirements at all.... in fact a Avangion to be can start at the same time as a Dragon to be......) in fact it will mean the character has a higher manifester level, most likely being in the epic levels of manifesting. (btw which also fits the fluff as the avangions were as powerful in psionics as epic psionicists in 2nd ed.) Also this fits a bit of interesting fluff. In all the stories dealing with the Order that I have found they have only killed young Avangions not young Dragons. (even though Dragon Kings says they are watching both with interest due to the corrupting effects of combining magic and psionics..... but by the Avangions being more powerful psionics it is more likely that they would be the ones targetted by the Order IMHO)
Example:
on requirement 9th spells, 6th powers.... minimum character level to meet requirement:
psion 3/wizard 7/cerebramancer 10 (caster level 17, manifester level 13)
psychic warrior 6/wizard 7/cerebramancer 10 (caster level , manifester level )
on requirement 9th spells, 7th powers.... minimum character level to meet requirement:
psion 3/wizard 7/cerebramancer 10 (caster level 17, manifester level 13)
So where exactly is this massive change in power of the manifesting that people are reffering to?
My issue as I have said time and time again..... that the fluff and mechanics of ths psychic warriot by itself (without being modified by a PrC, as I have suggested more times than I want to count at this point) do NOT fit for the Fluff and Mechanics of the Avangion. What is being suggested would be similiar (not the same but similiar too) allowing a ranger/psion to be able to become a Spirit of the Land..... they do not have the devotion to what it takes to become an advanced being of that type so should not be able to become one.
Note in 2ed it was possible for a fighter/defiler/psionicist to become a dragon (as a half elf could become one, and this was a valid class combination for them) and this would actually fit a psychic warrior/wizard (defiler) in 3.5. However half elves could NOT become Avangions per Dragon Kings. So there is no precedent for a psychic warrior in an Avangion build, let alone any reason that fits the fluff from dark sun.
And while use of the Avangion PrC and the metamorposis should not require a specific PrC to get to it (going back to a comment someone else made- Jon IIRC) and you should be able to attain this stage of being an AB without requiring a PrC, but let us be honest- who is not going to use the Cerebremancer PrC in a build to get a character or PC to this stage? I think all of the proposed builds of the remaining SKs have the CB PrC- it is a great class to max out on (not to take past 10th lvl though).
{sarcasm font} hmmmm yeah that sounds sooooo like what an Avangion is doing {/sarcasm font off}
so compairing the two, is totally innaccurate as too who should be able to take them..... as an Avangion, per all prior versions, lose the ability to fight physically in their natural form as they advance. (which is the antithesis of what a psychic warrior does per fluff and mechanics of the PrC) ..... whereas the psion uncarnate actually becomes a more powerfull opponent in physical combat and are harder to hurt in addition. (which several character designs of psychic warriors do fit the idea of incorpreal combat vs corpreal.)
You call the Psion Uncarnate as an inaccurate comparison, and yet you yourself use things like Ranger/Psion? I'm sorry, but the Psychic Warrior isn't equivalent to the Ranger -- the Ranger has a significantly lower number of spells and 2 whole spell levels less than what the Psychic Warrior has for themselves. The closest comparison is the PHB Bard. And honestly, bards are tricksters, but they do devote themselves to their spells and magic a lot more than a Paladin or Ranger. The Psychic Warrior is similar in many respects -- particularly in the power level, to Bards, only rather than blending Arcane & Rogue-like qualities (like the Bard), the Psychic Warrior blends Psionic and Fighter-like qualities. They use their psionics as a tool. The view that was taken for the development of Dragons specifically, and one stressed from the get-go for all other Advanced Beings in general was that the Psionics are augmenting/enhancing the Magic. It is used as a tool to tap into greater magical power. The Avangion is no different than the Dragon in this respect. The difference comes that the Avangion has greater understanding (boosts) of both Arcane and Psionic capabilities -- granted through being an Avangion, not through requirements to start down the path. Things like interesting uses for their Power Points, I would say -- something that a Psychic Warrior is rather significantly lacking in.
And your comment on psion/wizards not wanting to be combat machines like dragons is somewhat false as well..... as the physical forms of the dragon and the avangion are not the actual goals of the metamorphosis..... those forms are more a side effect of restructuring your body to handle more powerful magic/power. (remember with your average dragon it is the lust for power that drives them onward in the transformation.)
True, but it's hardly a "side effect" in the end.
Actually a higher manifester level requirement means the character will have a slightly lower caster level at higher levels not a lower manifester level..... (if there is any requirement at all..... although with cerebramancer PrC there is NO change in the minimum requirements at all.... in fact a Avangion to be can start at the same time as a Dragon to be......) in fact it will mean the character has a higher manifester level, most likely being in the epic levels of manifesting. (btw which also fits the fluff as the avangions were as powerful in psionics as epic psionicists in 2nd ed.) Also this fits a bit of interesting fluff. In all the stories dealing with the Order that I have found they have only killed young Avangions not young Dragons. (even though Dragon Kings says they are watching both with interest due to the corrupting effects of combining magic and psionics..... but by the Avangions being more powerful psionics it is more likely that they would be the ones targetted by the Order IMHO)
Sorry, but let's not even begin to look at the Cerebrmancer when building the PrC. That's just all kinds of bad news taking that as your basis. Like with the Dragon, stick to the base classes for the builds. How individuals use PrCs then is up to them. Yet another way of giving the fredom of choice to the players and GM's, rather than forcing a specific path on them.
Note in 2ed it was possible for a fighter/defiler/psionicist to become a dragon (as a half elf could become one, and this was a valid class combination for them) and this would actually fit a psychic warrior/wizard (defiler) in 3.5. However half elves could NOT become Avangions per Dragon Kings. So there is no precedent for a psychic warrior in an Avangion build, let alone any reason that fits the fluff from dark sun.
There's no precidence for the Psychic Warrior from 2E mechanics at all, so your point is actually moderately weak and a rather large stretch. It comes down to choice. Do we let the individual DM's and players decide how to develop their characters in this regard, or do we impose what is a needless mechanic forcing them to specific builds? Athas.org's policy on such things is to not piock for people, but provide the options, so that the individual DM's can make the choice for themselves. I don't see how this is any different.
Only hardcore manifesters are likely to be drawn to becoming uncarnate. Thus, psions and wilders most often take the uncarnate ath, while combar specialists such as psychic warriors are happy in their physicality.
I'm not saying uncarnates are the exact equivalent of avangions, but if we are to be bound by fluff, the above clearly indicates that psychic warriors don't frequently become uncarnates, and yet they can.
so compairing the two, is totally innaccurate as too who should be able to take them..... as an Avangion, per all prior versions, lose the ability to fight physically in their natural form as they advance. (which is the antithesis of what a psychic warrior does per fluff and mechanics of the PrC) ..... whereas the psion uncarnate actually becomes a more powerfull opponent in physical combat and are harder to hurt in addition. (which several character designs of psychic warriors do fit the idea of incorpreal combat vs corpreal.)
Actually, uncarnates (being incorporeal) cannot engage in standard physical combat (or almost any other physical activity) at all, exactly as avangions. It is only through their special abilities that they remain capable of interacting with the physical world. That sounds like an avangion to me.
My point about dragons and wizard/psions is that your initial proclivities don't necessarily match the end result of the transformation. Hence, an up-to-now psychic warrior can, over the course of many levels and with the addition of other classes, become less physical.
Moreover, with a proper selection of powers and feats a psychic warrior need not be based on hitting hardest with his attacks. There are plenty of psychic warrior powers that require touch attacks (which I'm assuming avangions could still make) or provide bonuses that are useful in combat no matter what you are doing (speed bonuses, hide bonuses, DR, save bonuses, etc). To say all psychic warriors are expressly built for physical combat is like saying all clerics are mobile hospitals.
You call the Psion Uncarnate as an inaccurate comparison, and yet you yourself use things like Ranger/Psion? I'm sorry, but the Psychic Warrior isn't equivalent to the Ranger -- the Ranger has a significantly lower number of spells and 2 whole spell levels less than what the Psychic Warrior has for themselves. The closest comparison is the PHB Bard. And honestly, bards are tricksters, but they do devote themselves to their spells and magic a lot more than a Paladin or Ranger. The Psychic Warrior is similar in many respects -- particularly in the power level, to Bards, only rather than blending Arcane & Rogue-like qualities (like the Bard), the Psychic Warrior blends Psionic and Fighter-like qualities. They use their psionics as a tool. The view that was taken for the development of Dragons specifically, and one stressed from the get-go for all other Advanced Beings in general was that the Psionics are augmenting/enhancing the Magic. It is used as a tool to tap into greater magical power. The Avangion is no different than the Dragon in this respect. The difference comes that the Avangion has greater understanding (boosts) of both Arcane and Psionic capabilities -- granted through being an Avangion, not through requirements to start down the path. Things like interesting uses for their Power Points, I would say -- something that a Psychic Warrior is rather significantly lacking in.
You have taken my comment out of context Xlor. My comparisson on a ranger/psion being able to become a spirit of the land is valid as a ranger can take epic feats to be able to cast higher level spells.... up to levels 9th+ so they would be able to become spirits of the land if we do not put other limitations into. (and a scarier thought would be a ranger/psychic warrior that was able to become a spirit of the land.)
I agree that psychic warrior are more like bards than other core classes which is one of the main reason they are one of my fave core classes. As I love the concepts of both bards and psychic warriors.
And yes psychic warriors use their powers as a tool...... a tool specifically for combat.
And yes the understanding/focussing from the mind that comes of mastery of psionics is used to augment magic is how psionic enchantements were described in 2nd ed and how we have been dealing with them in 3.x..... BUT there is a huge difference between a person that is skilled in using a tool for a specific purpose, (ie the psychic warrior by fluff and mechanics uses their psionics to augment their fighting) and someone who understands the physics and creation of the tool to such a point as they would be able to translate it into the creation of something totally different. (which better describes a psion or possibly a wilder)
True, but it's hardly a "side effect" in the end.
Agreed it is more than a side effect in the final situation, but the actual form is an enhancement of the final form of the PrC versus the entire goal of it. I.e. dragons and avangions proceed work to gain the power and ability that is linked to the form versus the form itself. unlike the Uncarnate in which the form is the actual goal.
Sorry, but let's not even begin to look at the Cerebrmancer when building the PrC. That's just all kinds of bad news taking that as your basis. Like with the Dragon, stick to the base classes for the builds. How individuals use PrCs then is up to them. Yet another way of giving the fredom of choice to the players and GM's, rather than forcing a specific path on them.
I specified that it was the optimum path not the only path..... and to be honest, I cannot imagine a player that is seriously wanting to go into the advanced being forms not using the cerebramancer as it is an official PrC from the book on psionics (note I did not use mind mage or other 3rd party sources.... I used a PrC from the main book from Wizards on the psionics system itself)...... but going without the PrC, and only going the base classes you are looking at the following:
on requirement 9th spells, 6th powers.... minimum character level to meet requirement:
psion 11/wizard 17 (caster level 17, manifester level 11, level 28)
psychic warrior 16/wizard 17 (caster level 17, manifester level 16, level 33)
on requirement 9th spells, 7th powers.... minimum character level to meet requirement:
psion 13/wizard 17 (caster level 17, manifester level 13, level 30)
you are looking at a 2 level difference on the wizard/psion progression. And in both progressions (both with power level 6 or 7) you are looking at useless characters against character of a single class or PrC of equal level. Using either set of requirements.
So by listing them by the base classes without PrC's they are literally weaker than any other characters...... again one of the reasons I personally really despise the 3.x multiclassing system for casters. And why I totally revamped it in my d20 modern version I did for the playtest.
GM's and players have options to create their characters however they want, however the mystic theurge, eldritch knight, cerebramancer, and the other multiclass PrC's were made (at least IMHO) specifically to try and correct the flaws in the multiclassing of casters in the base system. So totally removing them from the equation leaves you with useless characters when you try and make a character that mixes multiple caster classes.
There's no precidence for the Psychic Warrior from 2E mechanics at all, so your point is actually moderately weak and a rather large stretch. It comes down to choice. Do we let the individual DM's and players decide how to develop their characters in this regard, or do we impose what is a needless mechanic forcing them to specific builds? Athas.org's policy on such things is to not piock for people, but provide the options, so that the individual DM's can make the choice for themselves. I don't see how this is any different.
As I have said before the psychic warrior is just a replacement for the old fighter/psionicist multiclass option in 2nd ed. which was the most common (and in most cases only option for most demihumans) option for multiclassing for psionics. So by that idea there is a precidence.
And I have said before I think making a seperate prestige class that is built around the idea of the weaker psionic classes mastering their mind (ie wilders and psychic warriors) through study and such, would be a great PrC and would even be a way to work around the requirement. The same thing that the complete arcane book did for bards (which as we agree is the closest class to psychic warrior on equivelency) on allowing them to cast spells of level 7-9th by taking the sublime chord PrC.
And yes Athas.org's policy is "to not pick for people, but provide the options, so that the individual DM's can make the choice for themselves." as long as it agrees with the fluff and does not totally change the nature of what Advanced Beings are for.
By making all the Advanced Beings open to the psychic warrior, we are opening up a pandora's box. And if we do it, I am looking forward to the fight to try and keep ranger/psychic warriors (who have taken the improved spell capacity feat 5 times) from becoming Spirits of the Land...... {sarcasm font} the ultimate protectors of the lands {/sarcasm font}
As I have said before the psychic warrior is just a replacement for the old fighter/psionicist multiclass option in 2nd ed. which was the most common (and in most cases only option for most demihumans) option for multiclassing for psionics. So by that idea there is a precidence.
Since humans couldn't multiclass in 2e, their natural version of psychic warrior was a dual class fighter/psionicist, and of course these could then become wizards of either a preserving or defiling bent, and thence become dragons or avangions (assuming some pretty high ability scores and a lot of time). So in your 2e terms, psychic warriors could become both, which I suppose is about as strong a precendent as can be found.
By making all the Advanced Beings open to the psychic warrior, we are opening up a pandora's box. And if we do it, I am looking forward to the fight to try and keep ranger/psychic warriors (who have taken the improved spell capacity feat 5 times) from becoming Spirits of the Land...... {sarcasm font} the ultimate protectors of the lands {/sarcasm font}
That's the kind of thing where you roll your eyes and laugh at the foolish little PC.
I'm not saying uncarnates are the exact equivalent of avangions, but if we are to be bound by fluff, the above clearly indicates that psychic warriors don't frequently become uncarnates, and yet they can.
Yes but while they do not frequently become Psion Uncarnates some do.... and again their combat abilities are actually augmented by the PrC and I will show how below.
Actually, uncarnates (being incorporeal) cannot engage in standard physical combat (or almost any other physical activity) at all, exactly as avangions. It is only through their special abilities that they remain capable of interacting with the physical world. That sounds like an avangion to me.
Actually you are wrong on your base suposition there. While they are incorpreal, their weapons and armor are not..... so they can STILL engage in physical combat normally..... it is just harder to hit them in return. This is actually stated in the section on them becoming incorpreal. This is the main point where the two concepts are totally different. An uncarnate becomes like a ghost that can still wear armor and wield weapons, an Avangion changes to another physical form that is incapable of normal melee attacks, other than touch attacks.
My point about dragons and wizard/psions is that your initial proclivities don't necessarily match the end result of the transformation. Hence, an up-to-now psychic warrior can, over the course of many levels and with the addition of other classes, become less physical.
I agree, with the addition of more classes they can become less physical..... in fact that has been my point. I have been recommending the creation of a PrC for psychic warriors (and also for wilders actually) to represent them becoming more focussed on the mental aspects of psionics. However as long as they are still progressing in the actual psychic warrior class, their focus (at least in relation to psionics at that point) is going to be on combat specifically and augmenting that ability through psionics..... not the actual nature/alternate uses of psionics.
Moreover, with a proper selection of powers and feats a psychic warrior need not be based on hitting hardest with his attacks. There are plenty of psychic warrior powers that require touch attacks (which I'm assuming avangions could still make) or provide bonuses that are useful in combat no matter what you are doing (speed bonuses, hide bonuses, DR, save bonuses, etc). To say all psychic warriors are expressly built for physical combat is like saying all clerics are mobile hospitals.
no it is like saying fighter are built for combat (which they are.... I am sure you could make a fighter that is good a poetry..... but that does not mean the focus of the class is not combat)
or saying a cleric is built for casting spells and serving its god (or elemental patron in Dark Sun terms)
I have done psychic warriors for games based around movement psionic feats and archery and tumbling before..... he is not that good in melee combat but he is still based on combat. And while I could do one based on touch attacks and the like to be honest, those selections would still be a very small part of the character if I kept leveling him in psychic warrior, as the otehr class features of the character still apply.
Since humans couldn't multiclass in 2e, their natural version of psychic warrior was a dual class fighter/psionicist, and of course these could then become wizards of either a preserving or defiling bent, and thence become dragons or avangions (assuming some pretty high ability scores and a lot of time). So in your 2e terms, psychic warriors could become both, which I suppose is about as strong a precendent as can be found.
Actually in 2nd ed you could not do that, you were limited to a 2nd class only for dual classing (it was in 1st edition that you could do it multiple times..... and it was required in the case of a bard actually..... the first prestige class :D )
That's the kind of thing where you roll your eyes and laugh at the foolish little PC.
Agreed but you know that fight is going to come on the boards here if we do set the precedent now.
Actually you are wrong on your base suposition there. While they are incorpreal, their weapons and armor are not..... so they can STILL engage in physical combat normally..... it is just harder to hit them in return. This is actually stated in the section on them becoming incorpreal. This is the main point where the two concepts are totally different. An uncarnate becomes like a ghost that can still wear armor and wield weapons, an Avangion changes to another physical form that is incapable of normal melee attacks, other than touch attacks.
Ah, I missed that point. Very strange. But my point about "2e psychic warriors" is still valid, and probably more important anyway.
Actually in 2nd ed you could not do that, you were limited to a 2nd class only for dual classing.
Untrue. I double checked before I posted the first time and in the AD&D 2nd Ed Player's Handbook it explicitly states that you can have as many classes as you like if you meet the ability requirements:
There is no limit to the number of class a character can aquire, as long as he has the ability scores and wants to make the change.
Agreed but you know that fight is going to come on the boards here if we do set the precedent now.
I actually brought this up a few months ago with regard to a ranger/psion. No one seemed too much bothered by it, though some believed it couldn't be done (I think they misunderstood the improved spell capacity feat).
By making all the Advanced Beings open to the psychic warrior, we are opening up a pandora's box. And if we do it, I am looking forward to the fight to try and keep ranger/psychic warriors (who have taken the improved spell capacity feat 5 times) from becoming Spirits of the Land...... {sarcasm font} the ultimate protectors of the lands {/sarcasm font}
Coulda sworn the "Improved Spell Capacity" feat was limited, if that's the feat I'm thinking of. Like it doesn't let you learn any new spells, and basically only is used for Metamagics. So technically, it doesn't make you any more capable to use higher level spells -- just use metamagic feats that would require higher level spell slots than you currently have.
And it's not a pandora's box. So far, you've screamed about something that to me, is such an insignificant and minor detail I just don't get the problem. To me -- the fluff material presented for a class -- specifically a base class is to help build ideas -- it can be adapted and adjusted for individual charaters -- it's not a rigid wall, but the seeds of ideas blowing on the wind. For many people playing Psychic Warriors, they might take the minimalistic view of the Psychic Warrior -- but I generally try to support my players who like to somewhat "break the mold" a bit -- especially with regards to motivation. Your arguments seem to focus on the idea that all Psychic Warriors have the same motivations, the same reasons for being what they are, and the same focal path. I disagree -- that's steriotyping all of them into a square peg that must fit in the perfect hole.
I dunno, I run my games a bit more freeform and loose than yours, I guess. I tend to favor creativity in my players, and those that discover this begin to mold rather interesting and intricate characters. Now, the mechanics for the classes I tend to stick to -- because that's the mechanics of it all, and I do like keeping the rules standardized to keep everything as fair as I can in my games -- for the PC's as well as NPC's. Personally, I'm of the belief that leaving the option for Psychic Warriors to be able to develop into Advanced Beings harms nothing, produces a rather interesting series of possibilities, and can make for rather incredible roleplaying sessions. Locking them out over an enforced steriotype without any tangeable reasons (and like I said, it's impossible to come up with tangeable reasons, because, and here's the kicker, Psychic Warriors did not exist in 2E) for such a lockout; and the only reasons that are considered is either claiming something about all Psychic Warriors have the same personal focii, or that all Avangions have the same motivations/purposes. If the Dragons are supposed to be individual, and adaptable, why can't their antithesis, the Avangions?
Untrue. I double checked before I posted the first time and in the AD&D 2nd Ed Player's Handbook it explicitly states that you can have as many classes as you like if you meet the ability requirements:
Apparently I am wrong on this part, I concede that point. It has been too many years since I played 2nd ed and forgot that it was technically possible..... though a human would need the following as bare minimum stats
Str 14 (or was it higher on the orginating class? it has been too long), int 18, wis 17, con 15, char 16..... and to be honest even on 5d4 stat rolling the chances of getting that are so negligible. And even if you were using wishes once you mastered magic, you would still be looking at needing a minimum of multiple 16+ rolls at character creation.
though that form of dual classing is more along the level of taking levels of fighter then psion or wizard and the the last ..... not actually like the psychic warrior class but no biggy
I actually brought this up a few months ago with regard to a ranger/psion. No one seemed too much bothered by it, though some believed it couldn't be done (I think they misunderstood the improved spell capacity feat).
personally I have issues with a ranger/psion but not as many with a ranger/psychic warrior becoming one. As by what token would someone with a lesser link to the spirits of the land be able to become one.
Coulda sworn the "Improved Spell Capacity" feat was limited, if that's the feat I'm thinking of. Like it doesn't let you learn any new spells, and basically only is used for Metamagics. So technically, it doesn't make you any more capable to use higher level spells -- just use metamagic feats that would require higher level spell slots than you currently have.
Sorry xlor, but improved spell capacity gives you a spell slot of a level over the normal max for your class, and allows you to cast spells of that level. That makes it meet the requirements. A character could research a spell of that spell level by the rules. Or could place a metamagiced spell into the slot. In fact in several epic builds for partial casters it was used to represent a way to get to epic spellcasting and certain PrC's for bards (pre sublime chord PrC) and other hybrid casters.
And it's not a pandora's box. So far, you've screamed about something that to me, is such an insignificant and minor detail I just don't get the problem. To me -- the fluff material presented for a class -- specifically a base class is to help build ideas -- it can be adapted and adjusted for individual charaters -- it's not a rigid wall, but the seeds of ideas blowing on the wind. For many people playing Psychic Warriors, they might take the minimalistic view of the Psychic Warrior -- but I generally try to support my players who like to somewhat "break the mold" a bit -- especially with regards to motivation. Your arguments seem to focus on the idea that all Psychic Warriors have the same motivations, the same reasons for being what they are, and the same focal path. I disagree -- that's steriotyping all of them into a square peg that must fit in the perfect hole.
actually xlor my arguements are not just the fluff but the actual mechanics of class show the focus for the class. A psychic warrior, by the rules as written, is a combat class. Like a ranger, paladin, fighter, monk, etc.... From its descriptions, powers, BAB, saves, bonus feats, ect... it is designed around the idea of a combat class that supplements its fighting with psionic powers. (even the name indicates this.)
If you are arguing against that, I am not sure what I can say to you.
And yes classes can be adapted.....
but giving a ranger more points in nature skills does not make him a druid.
giving a paladin extra turning feats/spell based feats and stuff like that does not make them a full divine spellcaster (like a cleric)
giving a fighter improved unarmed combat based feats does not make him a master of martial arts (that takes levels in monk)
giving a bard lots of skill points in knowledge arcana does not make him a true master of the arcane (that takes wizard class)
and giving a fluff background to a psychic warrior and spending his skill points on knowledge psionics does not make him a Master of the Way (that takes a psion.)
We are not talkiing stereotyping, but the basis of the class system. I am all for my players having original and interesting backgrounds.... but I do not grant spellcasting to a fighter because the background states their father was a caster and he has their spellbook (unless they take a feat that allows spellcasting and then it does not advance without them taking levels in the appropriate class.).....
I dunno, I run my games a bit more freeform and loose than yours, I guess. I tend to favor creativity in my players, and those that discover this begin to mold rather interesting and intricate characters. Now, the mechanics for the classes I tend to stick to -- because that's the mechanics of it all, and I do like keeping the rules standardized to keep everything as fair as I can in my games -- for the PC's as well as NPC's. Personally, I'm of the belief that leaving the option for Psychic Warriors to be able to develop into Advanced Beings harms nothing, produces a rather interesting series of possibilities, and can make for rather incredible roleplaying sessions. Locking them out over an enforced steriotype without any tangeable reasons (and like I said, it's impossible to come up with tangeable reasons, because, and here's the kicker, Psychic Warriors did not exist in 2E) for such a lockout; and the only reasons that are considered is either claiming something about all Psychic Warriors have the same personal focii, or that all Avangions have the same motivations/purposes. If the Dragons are supposed to be individual, and adaptable, why can't their antithesis, the Avangions?
Actually Xlor, I highly doubt that you run your games more freeform and loose than mine..... as my discusion here is more on making an official stance than for my own games. (Considering my fave game system is actually TORG, and my own system is more free form than any other d20 system I have found yet, that statement was rather presumptious)
Most of my issues have been that the MECHANICS of the psychic warrior class shows them as more of a warrior than an psionicist.... that is the issue. I have been recommending creating a PrC that is specifically showing a psychic warrior having the change of heart you are talking about..... that would give the mechanical and fluff reinforcement for what you are talking about.
psychic warriors did not exist in 2nd ed no..... but their counterparts multiclass demihumans that were fighter/psionicist did. (and frankly dual class characters do not fit fully into the idea of a psychic warrior) And while there was a multiclass that could become dragons (half elves) there were none that could become avangions. Though that is neither here nor there..... we added psychic warrior to dragons mainly because the fluff showed that there was a valid precedent for that. (ie possibly borys, hammanu, etc....) However the dragons were also known for taking shortcuts..... Avangions have no such precedent in fluff or prior rules.
I personally love giving people options also, I just do not want to trash the fluff to do so. That is why I was suggesting the PrC to demonstrate the change in focus of a psychic warrior that was working towards a mastery of psionics as well as magic like what is described in the metamorphosis.
I do not see how people can honestly say that multiclassed wizard/psions are weaker then their straight progression counterparts. If we look at the psionics are different, then the multi-classed character has a huge advantage against a straight progression IMO.
lets see.... people resist your spells and powers in relation to your caster/manifester level..... SR/PR resist vs the same caster/manifester level....... that means encounters targetted to resist caster/manifesters of the given level...... will basically ignore the spells and powers of a multiclass wizard/psion
add to this you only have the weaker spells and powers ...... which means you will not have actual firepower needed against creatures of your CR.
but giving a ranger more points in nature skills does not make him a druid.
giving a paladin extra turning feats/spell based feats and stuff like that does not make them a full divine spellcaster (like a cleric)
giving a fighter improved unarmed combat based feats does not make him a master of martial arts (that takes levels in monk)
giving a bard lots of skill points in knowledge arcana does not make him a true master of the arcane (that takes wizard class)
and giving a fluff background to a psychic warrior and spending his skill points on knowledge psionics does not make him a Master of the Way (that takes a psion.)
... and sticking feathers up your but* does not make you a chicken. :P
Sorry, just had to put that Fight Club quote in there.
Apparently I am wrong on this part, I concede that point. It has been too many years since I played 2nd ed and forgot that it was technically possible..... though a human would need the following as bare minimum stats
Str 14 (or was it higher on the orginating class? it has been too long), int 18, wis 17, con 15, char 16..... and to be honest even on 5d4 stat rolling the chances of getting that are so negligible. And even if you were using wishes once you mastered magic, you would still be looking at needing a minimum of multiple 16+ rolls at character creation.
Minimum stats are irrelevant. Such stats can be rolled, given enough times to roll, and since we are debating the existance of something everyone thinks would/should be rare anyway, the frequency of such occurances is unimportant.
though that form of dual classing is more along the level of taking levels of fighter then psion or wizard and the the last ..... not actually like the psychic warrior class but no biggy
psychic warriors did not exist in 2nd ed no..... but their counterparts multiclass demihumans that were fighter/psionicist did. (and frankly dual class characters do not fit fully into the idea of a psychic warrior)
You may not like the dual class fighter/psionicist as a psychic warrior, but it is as close as one can come in 2e for humans (especially chosing the right kits), just as the multiclass fighter/psionicist is closest for half-elves. But it is possible and if you are looking for possibilities in 2e rules, there it is. Thus, in 2e rules a "psychic warrior" could be an avangion.
At this point no one is saying anything new anymore, so I think I'll leave this discussion to others. I imagine I made my feelings on the matter pretty clear. :D Good luck to the official athas.orgers.
actually xlor my arguements are not just the fluff but the actual mechanics of class show the focus for the class. A psychic warrior, by the rules as written, is a combat class. Like a ranger, paladin, fighter, monk, etc.... From its descriptions, powers, BAB, saves, bonus feats, ect... it is designed around the idea of a combat class that supplements its fighting with psionic powers. (even the name indicates this.)
If you are arguing against that, I am not sure what I can say to you.
And yes classes can be adapted.....
but giving a ranger more points in nature skills does not make him a druid.
giving a paladin extra turning feats/spell based feats and stuff like that does not make them a full divine spellcaster (like a cleric)
giving a fighter improved unarmed combat based feats does not make him a master of martial arts (that takes levels in monk)
giving a bard lots of skill points in knowledge arcana does not make him a true master of the arcane (that takes wizard class)
and giving a fluff background to a psychic warrior and spending his skill points on knowledge psionics does not make him a Master of the Way (that takes a psion.)
We are not talkiing stereotyping, but the basis of the class system. I am all for my players having original and interesting backgrounds.... but I do not grant spellcasting to a fighter because the background states their father was a caster and he has their spellbook (unless they take a feat that allows spellcasting and then it does not advance without them taking levels in the appropriate class.).....
I'm not saying anything even remotely like granting spellcasting to fighters -- I'm saying that Psychic Warriors are Psionic Manifesters. Magic is the focus, magic is the focus, magic is the focus for Advanced Beings. Psionics improve their magic. That's an argument which holds true for all of them, or doesn't apply to any of them. Being a "Master of the Way" shouldn't be required for them. The mechanics of the 3/3.5e system precludes that if they are Masters of the Way, then they cannot be Masters of Magic; or if they are "Masters" of both, they are really Masters of neither. WE are left with a choice -- pick either magic or psionics. We had chosen magic -- because it made sense; Not just for the Dragon, but also for the others, especially the Avangion, who is the Dragon's antithesis.
"Mastery of Psionics" shouldn't even come into the equasion -- it's a fallacy of looking at how the flawed 2E mechanics worked, and then trying to force them upon the 3/3.5e mechanics -- it just doesn't work. We can provide interesting abilities for Avangions that would make a Psychic Warrior be strongly persuaded against wanting to become an Avangion, but seriously... Why would we need to explicitly deny the Psychic Warrior from making the attempt? It still comes down to the perception that the Psychic Warrior just "shouldn't" -- and yet with how the mechanics have already been defined, and should be applied across the board -- the only reason for this seems akin to a temper tantrum in it's rationality. Sure, you can state the fluff of a Psychic Warrior shows them to have more physical prowess. Hell, the mechanics show that they have martial abilities -- I've never stated otherwise. I've just said -- so what? It will cripple them as Avangions, but should not ever be the reason to just ban then from making the effort.
You have yet to show a shred of anything that would preclude banning them completely. You've show why it's not a good idea, but nothing that is a open and closed case. You keep going back to it, hoding it in front of you and claiming that it's all that is needed for banning Psychic Warriors -- but honestly... it's not the case.
And for the record, a multiclassed Fighter/Psionicist from 2E was more powerful than a Psychic Warrior. It's nowhere even more remotely similar to the Psychic Warrior than the Dual Classed human Fighter/Psiionicist is. You can't really be trying to make a distinction there -- if the Dual Classed character has 20/20 Fighter/Psionicist, or the multiclassed character has the same level distribution (I know, they wouldn't have it at that high, they'd be more likely to have Fighter 20 while Psionicist at a lower level if memory serves), there's no distinction in who could do what -- they'd be very, very similar.
If we give the Avangion things that use a large amount of power points to operate/activate, then all of a sudden a Psychic Warrior would be at a considerable disadvantage.
... and sticking feathers up your but* does not make you a chicken. :P
Sorry, just had to put that Fight Club quote in there.
you have no idea how hard it was not for me to put that quote in myself while doing it *snicker* but I was trying to remain polite on it.
Minimum stats are irrelevant. Such stats can be rolled, given enough times to roll, and since we are debating the existance of something everyone thinks would/should be rare anyway, the frequency of such occurances is unimportant.
true that was just an aside
You may not like the dual class fighter/psionicist as a psychic warrior, but it is as close as one can come in 2e for humans (especially chosing the right kits), just as the multiclass fighter/psionicist is closest for half-elves. But it is possible and if you are looking for possibilities in 2e rules, there it is. Thus, in 2e rules a "psychic warrior" could be an avangion.
actually the thing is dual class psionicist/fighter really does not equal a psychic warrior as the classes do not work while they are even..... ie a psionicist 5/fighter 20 is possible or a fighter 3/psionicist 20..... this in no way is equivilent to a psychic warrior as the combat and psionics are not balanced together like a hybrid......
unlike a multiclass fighter/psionicist which each class had virtually the same exp so they were normally within a level of each other so there was a set progression with the 2 classes. This is equivelent to the progression of a psychic warrior progression.
but again this was still an aside on the topic.
At this point no one is saying anything new anymore, so I think I'll leave this discussion to others. I imagine I made my feelings on the matter pretty clear. :D Good luck to the official athas.orgers.
awwwwww
but the conversation was so much fun. the most ironic part is that we are not arguing over wether or not a psychic warrior "can" become a Avangion...... but wether or not they have to take extra steps (ie a PrC of some form or not) to do so.
but the conversation was so much fun. the most ironic part is that we are not arguing over wether or not a psychic warrior "can" become a Avangion...... but wether or not they have to take extra steps (ie a PrC of some form or not) to do so.
I'm sorry, but that's not been the argument I've seen coming from you, unless there's been some gross miscommunication going on here. You've seemed to be rather against the every notion of a Psychic Warrior becoming an Avangion. Now, as I said before -- we should not look to PrC's to solve our problems. We deal with the base classes, let individual DM's determine which, if any, PrCs they will allow in their game. If we include the Cerebrmancer, or we make a PrC tailored for the Psychic Warrior to be abl;e to "master" Psionics, and then mandate their use directly or indirectly, then we are forcing the DM's to use those PrC's even if they don't want to. Or we are basically making it so that the DM's in question won't use the Advanced Beings we've developed, because the AB's are relying on those PrC's. To me, that is self-defeating. Stick to the Base Classes.
I'm not saying anything even remotely like granting spellcasting to fighters -- I'm saying that Psychic Warriors are Psionic Manifesters. Magic is the focus, magic is the focus, magic is the focus for Advanced Beings. Psionics improve their magic. That's an argument which holds true for all of them, or doesn't apply to any of them. Being a "Master of the Way" shouldn't be required for them. The mechanics of the 3/3.5e system precludes that if they are Masters of the Way, then they cannot be Masters of Magic; or if they are "Masters" of both, they are really Masters of neither. WE are left with a choice -- pick either magic or psionics. We had chosen magic -- because it made sense; Not just for the Dragon, but also for the others, especially the Avangion, who is the Dragon's antithesis.
No you are not saying granting spellcasting to a fighter, that was an extrapoloation to show a point.
What you are saying is, that without any mechanical change to show the developement, that psychic warrior with a fluff background should be able to master an understanding of psionics enough that they would be something that the Order considers to be a threat to the purity of psionics. And as the Order only considers the most powerful of psionics (ie epic manifesting) when used by a human/demihuman to be worthy of notice, (they consider the rest to be less than animals and do not interfere.) that would mean power above 6th level powers..... would you not agree?
Too be honest I really hate the fact that we cannot require both 9th level powers and spells due to the inherent flaws in the multiclass system...... but we are talking about allowing a class that can never be able to take epic manifesting to become part of a metamorphosis that the order has actually decided (at least for a limited time) to be a threat to the psionic purity and killed one of.
And if we do decide to make it be actual manifester level advances in the class instead of effective manifester level, the psion and wilder versions will be able to level up to take epic manifesting as well as epic spellcasting.... however a psychic warrior would not.
We are talking about a change that will change part of the fluff of Athas. And you know how I am about that.
Again as I have said many times, I see nothing wrong with a psychic warrior changing focus into something that would be more focussed on learning more on psionics instead of combat..... but this would be a prestige class.... as I have stated several times I am for that.
Again you seem to think that I am saying that a psychic warrior should not be able to become a Avangion..... when what I am actually saying is that they should not be able to without first making a significant change or extra steps.
Kind of like a ranger/mage should not become an arcane trickster without first taking levels in a rogue type PrC. (several that grant sneak attack come to mind)
"Mastery of Psionics" shouldn't even come into the equasion -- it's a fallacy of looking at how the flawed 2E mechanics worked, and then trying to force them upon the 3/3.5e mechanics -- it just doesn't work. We can provide interesting abilities for Avangions that would make a Psychic Warrior be strongly persuaded against wanting to become an Avangion, but seriously... Why would we need to explicitly deny the Psychic Warrior from making the attempt? It still comes down to the perception that the Psychic Warrior just "shouldn't" -- and yet with how the mechanics have already been defined, and should be applied across the board -- the only reason for this seems akin to a temper tantrum in it's rationality. Sure, you can state the fluff of a Psychic Warrior shows them to have more physical prowess. Hell, the mechanics show that they have martial abilities -- I've never stated otherwise. I've just said -- so what? It will cripple them as Avangions, but should not ever be the reason to just ban then from making the effort.
I really appreciate having a frank discussion, dealing with the fluff of Athas, being reduced in my fellow posters opinion to being akin to a temper tantrum.
And you seem to still think I am trying to ban psychic warriors.... I have been saying what you are suggesting is too major of a change from the actual class to be done without a PrC or something to show that change in a mechanical and fluff sense. Which is how most of the major changes in 3.x like this, have been shown in the books produced by WotC.
I am not trying to force the system from 2nd ed into the 3.x system..... I am trying to help mold the 3.x system to then Fluff of darksun.
And us using the dragon as the example of the prerequisites for all of the advanced beings is flawed in several ways. First dragons were known for taking shortcuts on their metamoprhosis. Second they had lower requirements in 2nd ed to start with. That alone gies us reason to evaluate the prerequisites of the other Advanced Beings
You have yet to show a shred of anything that would preclude banning them completely. You've show why it's not a good idea, but nothing that is a open and closed case. You keep going back to it, hoding it in front of you and claiming that it's all that is needed for banning Psychic Warriors -- but honestly... it's not the case.
As I have said I am not trying to preclude them. I am saying that they need an extra step. You also have given no reason to include them other than..... that dragons get to have them.
That is the majority of your arguement, that dragons get them, so all other advanced beings should. We had long discussions and arguements on letting them into the dragon PrC too if I remember right (and I was in the camp to allow them in)..... and one of the main things it came down too was the fact that the class fit several of the dragons that actually existed alread (ie a couple of the SK's.... there is no such precxedence for Avangions, elementals, or spirits of the land..... we are on whole new ground here.
And for the record, a multiclassed Fighter/Psionicist from 2E was more powerful than a Psychic Warrior. It's nowhere even more remotely similar to the Psychic Warrior than the Dual Classed human Fighter/Psiionicist is. You can't really be trying to make a distinction there -- if the Dual Classed character has 20/20 Fighter/Psionicist, or the multiclassed character has the same level distribution (I know, they wouldn't have it at that high, they'd be more likely to have Fighter 20 while Psionicist at a lower level if memory serves), there's no distinction in who could do what -- they'd be very, very similar.
As I said before in my last response..... dual class did not require you to have the levels anywhere near each other..... multiclass did..... dual class is closer to 3.x multiclassing (no where near exact mind you but closer)..... whereas in 2nd ed multiclass characters levels in each class were kept near too each other.... which is in turn closer to the psychic warrior (not exact mind you, but nothing was translated exactly from 2nd ed to 3.x)
If we give the Avangion things that use a large amount of power points to operate/activate, then all of a sudden a Psychic Warrior would be at a considerable disadvantage.
I personally like this and agree with this, but we are talking prerequisites at this point not the actual powers.
I'm sorry, but that's not been the argument I've seen coming from you, unless there's been some gross miscommunication going on here. You've seemed to be rather against the every notion of a Psychic Warrior becoming an Avangion. Now, as I said before -- we should not look to PrC's to solve our problems. We deal with the base classes, let individual DM's determine which, if any, PrCs they will allow in their game. If we include the Cerebrmancer, or we make a PrC tailored for the Psychic Warrior to be abl;e to "master" Psionics, and then mandate their use directly or indirectly, then we are forcing the DM's to use those PrC's even if they don't want to. Or we are basically making it so that the DM's in question won't use the Advanced Beings we've developed, because the AB's are relying on those PrC's. To me, that is self-defeating. Stick to the Base Classes.
Xlor, then you have been misreading me..... I have been saying since the beginning of the arguement to make the psionic power requirement level 7 ...... but that we should also be creating a PrC for psychic warriors, that shows when one decides to take a more mental/studious look at psionics instead of using it as just another weapon.
I.e. making a psionic version of the sublime chord.
PrC's are a part of the system.... and an important part. What I am suggesting still allows base classes to become Avangions with no problem (other than the inherent problem of multiclassing casters in 3.x) it only limits psychic warriors to require an extra step. And this way if a DM wants to allow a psychic warrior Avangion in their game, they just allow the PrC..... if not they do not want them they just do not allow that PrC to be available. (vs having to fight with their players as to why they are preventing them from doing it when it is in the "official" rules that they can)
You are trying to force DM's to accept psychic warriors becoming Avangions with no additional steps..... and it does not have precedence in the fluff for dark sun. (dragons did)
Xlor you know me, I am very strict on fluff and I am a massive rules lawyer..... this is why I excel at making systems like I do. But I firmly believe that to make a massive change in the nature of a class, requires a mechanical change.... ie a PrC or something to allow for it.
lets see.... people resist your spells and powers in relation to your caster/manifester level..... SR/PR resist vs the same caster/manifester level....... that means encounters targetted to resist caster/manifesters of the given level...... will basically ignore the spells and powers of a multiclass wizard/psion
add to this you only have the weaker spells and powers ...... which means you will not have actual firepower needed against creatures of your CR.
Do all creatures that have SR have PR too. I do not think so if I read the "psionics is different" correctly. So a creature has a high SR- hit it with psionics, or vice versa. And I would like to add that there are several spells and powers that do not allow saves or are not effected by SR/PR.
Then there are feats and epic feats that allow you to increase your caster level or the number of PSP's you can spend each round.
And as for having the weaker powers- well when properly used there are ways to increase the potency of what you have and a smart player would utilize spell and power selection to maximum effect. A psion 5/ preserver 5/ cerebremancer 10 would have access to 8th level spells and powers and with a practiced spellcaster feat would have a CL of 19 and an ML of 15.
Now down to the pure numbers- this example character would have, at minimum, and 18 Intelligence which would give him the spells per day of 4/5/5/5/5/4/3/2/1 and he would also have 225 PSP's and 28 powers to select from (which I would break out as 5/4/4/4/4/3/3/1). It would be rather difficult for a person to even use all of these spells and power points in one day. While a straight wizard or psion of 20th level would, at the least with a 19 Intelligence, 4/5/5/5/5/4/4/4/4 OR 383 PSP's with 36 powers (5/4/4/4/4/3/3/3/6), and they would not have the total diverse options that the multiclassed character would have. Do not let me forget feats such as Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Power Penetration and Greater Power Penetration- that increase chances of bypassing SR/PR.
Then there is always my personal favorite tatic of dealing with a rival wizard or psion- cast or manifest Antimagic Field (which is uneffected by SR)or Catapsi and ride them like a prom date with your opposing abilities. (This is called thinking outside the box ;) ). There are also several power that if augmented increase the DC to save and other spells/powers that have several effects-all of which are not avoided if the save is made.
Personally I think my 20th level example psion/preserver/crebremance is more versatile would win out in a match up.
Xlor, then you have been misreading me..... I have been saying since the beginning of the arguement to make the psionic power requirement level 7 ...... but that we should also be creating a PrC for psychic warriors, that shows when one decides to take a more mental/studious look at psionics instead of using it as just another weapon.
I.e. making a psionic version of the sublime chord.
I had a rather inflammatory remark here I've sinc removed.
PrC's are a part of the system.... and an important part. What I am suggesting still allows base classes to become Avangions with no problem (other than the inherent problem of multiclassing casters in 3.x) it only limits psychic warriors to require an extra step. And this way if a DM wants to allow a psychic warrior Avangion in their game, they just allow the PrC..... if not they do not want them they just do not allow that PrC to be available. (vs having to fight with their players as to why they are preventing them from doing it when it is in the "official" rules that they can)
Actually, while PrCs are a part of the system, it is considered "bad form" to build a PrC with the basis being that people more or less need to take another PrC to begin with, when there really is no hierarchal order built upon the process. What you are wanting is to mandate that all characters operate a certain way, with PRC's that not everyone agrees with (even here on this very forum), as being the solution to the situation.
You are trying to force DM's to accept psychic warriors becoming Avangions with no additional steps..... and it does not have precedence in the fluff for dark sun. (dragons did)
Once again, there is no precidence in Dark Sun, because there were no Psychic Warriors before 3/3.5E. Your argument here, which you keep using is invalidated because it is extremely fallacious. You are claiming the existence or non-existence of something that there can never be any proof for or against.
I am not forcing anything on the DM's. I'm letting them decide for themselves, unless they are pushovers and let their Players get away with murder... then I guess I am pushing my vendetta against the DM's who can't stick up for themselves anyway. I am saying leave the option there. Is it too hard to grasp the very notion of leaving the option for people to choose for themselves on this? You want there to be no option. You want it to be cut and dry, that's it. If you want that so much, then fine, use it for your campaigns, I don't see how such a thing could be made "official".
Xlor you know me, I am very strict on fluff and I am a massive rules lawyer..... this is why I excel at making systems like I do. But I firmly believe that to make a massive change in the nature of a class, requires a mechanical change.... ie a PrC or something to allow for it.
But once again, it's not a massive change. You keep saying it is, and yet I just don't see it. SO WHAT if the Psychic Warrior has physical melee capabilities? SO WHAT if his psionics are used to augment and improve that? WHAT does it hurt to allow for the opportunity, the possibility of a Psychic Warrior as an Avangion? We can make it unappealing, without making it a non-option. I've given examples how it can be made unappealing, plus the Avangion, being a creature lacking in most physical abilities would just not be a favorite for a Psychic Warrior. We agree on this. What we don't agree on is that I want the option to be available for people who want to be different -- for those who want to make the more challenging character, to have their freedom of choice.
Like we agreed on with Dragons before -- the Advanced Beings use psionics as a tool. It's not an end unto itself. We agreed they were primarily magic, and secondarily psionic. Now, with the Avangions, you seem to be saying that it isn't the case. I don't see how it's changed. All that's different is that rather than developing into a physical powerhouse of a Dragon, the Avangion gains internal power and energy instead. I just don't see how any of that precludes the notion that a Psychic Warrior can't become an Avangion. And yet your whole argument seems to be that because the Avangions are all so focused on "restoration" and "superior powers of the mind", while the Psychic Warriors are focused and dedicated to "physical/melee combat", there can be no connection to them.
The Psychic Warriors already know how to use Psionics in a utilitarian fashion. They use it for their martial capabilities. The jump for then being able to redirect it into a new utilitarian role seems like a natural step for me. Once again, it's the Magic, not the Psionics that is the main defining aspect for Advanced Beings. The psionics augment, boost, and advance their magic abilities to new heights.
I say yet again, the option should be there. Let the individual DM's decide whether they allow for it or not. It's far simpler to do it this way, than to take the option from them, and then force a mechanics/rules change on those who want the opportunity.
Do all creatures that have SR have PR too. I do not think so if I read the "psionics is different" correctly. So a creature has a high SR- hit it with psionics, or vice versa. And I would like to add that there are several spells and powers that do not allow saves or are not effected by SR/PR.
Then there are feats and epic feats that allow you to increase your caster level or the number of PSP's you can spend each round.
And as for having the weaker powers- well when properly used there are ways to increase the potency of what you have and a smart player would utilize spell and power selection to maximum effect. A psion 5/ preserver 5/ cerebremancer 10 would have access to 8th level spells and powers and with a practiced spellcaster feat would have a CL of 19 and an ML of 15.
Now down to the pure numbers- this example character would have, at minimum, and 18 Intelligence which would give him the spells per day of 4/5/5/5/5/4/3/2/1 and he would also have 225 PSP's and 28 powers to select from (which I would break out as 5/4/4/4/4/3/3/1). It would be rather difficult for a person to even use all of these spells and power points in one day. While a straight wizard or psion of 20th level would, at the least with a 19 Intelligence, 4/5/5/5/5/4/4/4/4 OR 383 PSP's with 36 powers (5/4/4/4/4/3/3/3/6), and they would not have the total diverse options that the multiclassed character would have. Do not let me forget feats such as Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Power Penetration and Greater Power Penetration- that increase chances of bypassing SR/PR.
Then there is always my personal favorite tatic of dealing with a rival wizard or psion- cast or manifest Antimagic Field (which is uneffected by SR)or Catapsi and ride them like a prom date with your opposing abilities. (This is called thinking outside the box ;) ). There are also several power that if augmented increase the DC to save and other spells/powers that have several effects-all of which are not avoided if the save is made.
Personally I think my 20th level example psion/preserver/crebremance is more versatile would win out in a match up.
Actually we were saying straight multiclassed casters (ie without the cerebramancer or mystic theurge class) are the ones at a significant disadvantage. As I said in several of my earlier post, the cerebramancer and mystic theurge was Wizard's stop gap to fix the flaws in the multiclassing system. (did not totally fix them but helped alot)
a wizard 10/psion 10 really cannot compete against a wizard 20 or psion 20
I agree the wizard 5/psion 5/cerebramancer 10 is a much better character and is equal to the straight wizard or psion......
but on a straight multiclassed 10/10 character your powers and spells are at half the level expected for CR based on your level. (or with practiced spellcaster you have CL 14/ML 10).... so you end up at a severe disadvantage.
This came up because xlor responded rather negatively to my using the cerebramancer in my example for the optimum Avangion metamorphosis....... which also pointed out that the exact same class combo needed to meet the 9th level spells 6th level powers for a psion/wizard also meets the 9th level spell 7th level powers requirement that I was reccomending.
wizard 7/psion 3/cerebramance 10 (plus one class level of your choice to get the level 21 to get epic spellcasting feat.)
I had a rather inflammatory remark here I've sinc removed.
I appreciate that you did not place the remark here, me and you do butt our heads together at times.... but we both have the same goal..... to make a good system. We just have different views sometimes.
Actually, while PrCs are a part of the system, it is considered "bad form" to build a PrC with the basis being that people more or less need to take another PrC to begin with, when there really is no hierarchal order built upon the process. What you are wanting is to mandate that all characters operate a certain way, with PRC's that not everyone agrees with (even here on this very forum), as being the solution to the situation.
Xlor, I am only suggesting that ONE and only one class combination require an additional PrC.... and there is a basis for that in the system, in fact I have listed multiple examples throughout this thread of class combinations that would need to level in an additional class to gain a specific PrC. (everything from epic PrC's to ones from the DMG)
Note both psions and wilders still can gain the class only taking base classes, it is only the psychic warriors that would require a PrC.... and that being due to the idea that their class is not actually designed around the understanding of psionics required to utilize its energies to manipulate a totally different energy form. In fact there are a total of 2 powers on their entire list that deal with energy at all..... those being one that allows the body to absord an energy attack, and the other to cause their weapon to cause energy damage in addition..... both are 4th level powers.
Once again, there is no precidence in Dark Sun, because there were no Psychic Warriors before 3/3.5E. Your argument here, which you keep using is invalidated because it is extremely fallacious. You are claiming the existence or non-existence of something that there can never be any proof for or against.
but your argument by the same token is invalidated by this line of reasoning. The issue is that you are wanting to add something that has no true precedence..... while I am trying to limit something with no true precedence.
And you are trying to use a prior descision on a different Advanced Being (that always had lower prerequisites in prior versions) to prove your point. So please do not try and say that this definately allows for psychic warriors, as written, to qualify for the PrC.
I am not forcing anything on the DM's. I'm letting them decide for themselves, unless they are pushovers and let their Players get away with murder... then I guess I am pushing my vendetta against the DM's who can't stick up for themselves anyway. I am saying leave the option there. Is it too hard to grasp the very notion of leaving the option for people to choose for themselves on this? You want there to be no option. You want it to be cut and dry, that's it. If you want that so much, then fine, use it for your campaigns, I don't see how such a thing could be made "official".
You are forcing something on the DMs, you are forcing the idea that psychic warrior DO qualify for the class without anything further. And depending on the area and the number of rules lawyers in a persons game, you could be making this DM's life miserable..... because they have to give reasoning why they do not want to allow psychic warrior Avangion..... which had not precedence prior to this version of the system.
And for official releases, yes I do want it "cut and dry" at least in areas on things that agree or disagree with fluff. You are asking us to make official a total change on not only the Avangion from prior editions but also on how psychic warriors are portrayed. (which as far as I am aware was not the point of the work in the epic bureau)
And how the heck am I wanting no option when I want to create a PrC specifically for the idea of advancing pyschic warriors in a more studious approach. (which in addition to offering alot of roleplaying opertunities and agreeing with the old concept of wild talents studying the way later, opens up the option for them to become an Avangion.)
But once again, it's not a massive change. You keep saying it is, and yet I just don't see it. SO WHAT if the Psychic Warrior has physical melee capabilities? SO WHAT if his psionics are used to augment and improve that? WHAT does it hurt to allow for the opportunity, the possibility of a Psychic Warrior as an Avangion? We can make it unappealing, without making it a non-option. I've given examples how it can be made unappealing, plus the Avangion, being a creature lacking in most physical abilities would just not be a favorite for a Psychic Warrior. We agree on this. What we don't agree on is that I want the option to be available for people who want to be different -- for those who want to make the more challenging character, to have their freedom of choice.
it is not just that they have capabilities for it..... but the fact that the class is designed around combat and augmenting its combat abilities with psionics. They are not designed around the idea of discovery of mental abilities like a psion is.
just like a fighter is focussed on combat.
And I am all for freedom of choice.
oh and our disagreement is not "What we don't agree on is that I want the option to be available for people who want to be different -- for those who want to make the more challenging character, to have their freedom of choice."
It is we have different ways that we want to make it available. You want it available to any psychic warrior with no actuall effort other than possible skill and feat selection. I want there to be something more to show that kind of massive change in focus. (ie a class change)
Like we agreed on with Dragons before -- the Advanced Beings use psionics as a tool. It's not an end unto itself. We agreed they were primarily magic, and secondarily psionic. Now, with the Avangions, you seem to be saying that it isn't the case. I don't see how it's changed. All that's different is that rather than developing into a physical powerhouse of a Dragon, the Avangion gains internal power and energy instead. I just don't see how any of that precludes the notion that a Psychic Warrior can't become an Avangion. And yet your whole argument seems to be that because the Avangions are all so focused on "restoration" and "superior powers of the mind", while the Psychic Warriors are focused and dedicated to "physical/melee combat", there can be no connection to them.
Actually from my memories of the discussions, we agreed that Advanced Beings used the "understanding of psionics as a tool" .... considering the kind of changes involved in becoming a dragon are quite similiar to the powers psychic warriors get from their list.... their understanding can be given do to the type of changes...... but how does it match the changes in an Avangion? (psychic warriors do not deal in energy very much at all per their power list)
My arguement, in part, has to do with the fact that there is no common ground on psychic warrior and Avangions (as they are written in the psionics book and dragon kings respective)..... there is a common ground for dragons.
The Psychic Warriors already know how to use Psionics in a utilitarian fashion. They use it for their martial capabilities. The jump for then being able to redirect it into a new utilitarian role seems like a natural step for me. Once again, it's the Magic, not the Psionics that is the main defining aspect for Advanced Beings. The psionics augment, boost, and advance their magic abilities to new heights.
Again psychic warrior powers deal almost entirely in advancing their combat roles...... there are only two that deal with energy at all. To be honest this would be like someone who is good at using a computer and has an understanding of biology to be able to all the sudden use their knowledge of operating a computer and biology to figure out how to make a biomechanical device.
vs. someone who studied physics/engineering and biology figuring it out.
I say yet again, the option should be there. Let the individual DM's decide whether they allow for it or not. It's far simpler to do it this way, than to take the option from them, and then force a mechanics/rules change on those who want the opportunity.
And again I say that you are reccomending to add somthing that has no basis by the fluff.... and while I am perfectly willing to add the option as well, I feel that an additional step is needed for it.
And again I say that you are reccomending to add somthing that has no basis by the fluff.... and while I am perfectly willing to add the option as well, I feel that an additional step is needed for it.
Additional PrC's? No. I say it should be apparent in the Avangion class itself that the Psychic Warrior is not the optimal selection. If ther was some significant balancing measure needed here, where the Psychic Warrior would have some unfair advantage over the Psion or Wilder when it comes to being an Avangion, I could see the point of needing additional steps for this. Honestly, you are wanting to add in extra mechanics to the system to deal with something that will most likely deal with itself. I just don't see players rushing to play a Psychic Warrior type character and becoming an Avangion. It's hardly the fastest route to Avangionhood (or even Dragonhood), the Psychic Warrior has abilities that aren't exactly the best choices for an Avangion. I don't understand why it's so important to tangle it up even further here. We're talking about limiting a choice that in all actuality, would be a poor choice to begin with. Once again, I'm at a complete and total loss as to why it's so freaking important to even bother restricting it.
And I am totally, vehemently, and completely opposed to a 7th level powers requirement in any Advanced Being. To me, that's just a fundamentally dumb idea.
Additional PrC's? No. I say it should be apparent in the Avangion class itself that the Psychic Warrior is not the optimal selection. If ther was some significant balancing measure needed here, where the Psychic Warrior would have some unfair advantage over the Psion or Wilder when it comes to being an Avangion, I could see the point of needing additional steps for this. Honestly, you are wanting to add in extra mechanics to the system to deal with something that will most likely deal with itself. I just don't see players rushing to play a Psychic Warrior type character and becoming an Avangion. It's hardly the fastest route to Avangionhood (or even Dragonhood), the Psychic Warrior has abilities that aren't exactly the best choices for an Avangion. I don't understand why it's so important to tangle it up even further here. We're talking about limiting a choice that in all actuality, would be a poor choice to begin with. Once again, I'm at a complete and total loss as to why it's so freaking important to even bother restricting it.
Actually there have been several other PrCs, that have been limited, allthough other classes/races would fit as well. I don't understand why you keep on insisting that PsW should be able to become an Avangion. Seker gave some very good points for his side, which I totally agree with. Your argument is, as far as I got it, that it would be a bad choice to limit a class. IMO it's a bad choice to allow the concept of the PsW as the base for an avangion. Now this is my opinion, but seker gave some very good reasons, that confirm my opinion, you didn't. I don't want to insult you, but your arguments just don't convince me.
And I am totally, vehemently, and completely opposed to a 7th level powers requirement in any Advanced Being. To me, that's just a fundamentally dumb idea.
To me it's a dumb idea, that PsW could possibly be Avangions. That's just a feeling I have and it just doesn't have any arguable point.
Additional PrC's? No. I say it should be apparent in the Avangion class itself that the Psychic Warrior is not the optimal selection. If ther was some significant balancing measure needed here, where the Psychic Warrior would have some unfair advantage over the Psion or Wilder when it comes to being an Avangion, I could see the point of needing additional steps for this. Honestly, you are wanting to add in extra mechanics to the system to deal with something that will most likely deal with itself. I just don't see players rushing to play a Psychic Warrior type character and becoming an Avangion. It's hardly the fastest route to Avangionhood (or even Dragonhood), the Psychic Warrior has abilities that aren't exactly the best choices for an Avangion. I don't understand why it's so important to tangle it up even further here. We're talking about limiting a choice that in all actuality, would be a poor choice to begin with. Once again, I'm at a complete and total loss as to why it's so freaking important to even bother restricting it.
And I am totally, vehemently, and completely opposed to a 7th level powers requirement in any Advanced Being. To me, that's just a fundamentally dumb idea.
I have been trying to avoid getting people into this idea as it makes it easier for them to min max..... but psychic warrior is one of the nastiest combinations with the abilities of the Avangions from 2nd ed..... but the combination goes against the idea of an Avangion as it has ever been presented...... it makes a combat based Avangion
first off I can think of several advantages that a psychic warrior would have over psions as advanced beings....... a much higher BAB being the primary. (and this is a pretty big advantage on touch attacks and ray attack spells. and most touch or ray attack spells are more potent than the spells of other area of effect types.) or the fact that they get a large number of bonus feats, including psionic feats..... and while taking all psionic feats at low level would not be good for them, restructuring their skills, powers, and feats later on (ahem psychic reformation power anyone) would allow them to remove their fighter based feats later after they no longer needed them to level.
Basically you end up with a butterfly that is virtually immune to all attacks (depending on how we translate them) but is more powerful in combat than even a dragon, if you get a good rules lawyer doing the psychic warrior..... I know that I can do it. (I am a massive rules lawyer, that is why I design systems, instead of playing in them anymore).............. the min maxers dream come true.
Note there is an easier solution than a PrC if we do a prerequisite of 7th level powers:
Make an Epic psionic feat: improved power capacity just like the caster version..... this has use for a psychic warrior due to epic expanded knowledge, or independant research into powers. (ie the psychic warrior can choose to learn psion powers of levels 7 or higher in this method.)
Which removes the issue you had of requiring a PrC..... though I reccomend making one like I was describing anyway..... as it would be useful for other situations.
the avangion can be made more exclusive, so as to only allow psions, in other ways than upping the power level requirement - which i'll agree w/ xlor on, about being a bad idea. by simply adding requirements pertaining to powers and/or skills only accessible by a psion, you effectively eliminate the chance a psychic warrior could become one - or at least make it difficult enough so as to disuade any who might try.
Why is this even necessary? A psychic warrior becoming an avangion seems perfectly inline with all previous DS materials. 2e had only one psionic class, and if I recall correctly the first avangion was formerly a champion of Rajaat who eliminated the Lizard Men (except those protected by the Mind Lords). Who's to say Keltis wasn't a psychic warrior before he had a change of heart? I just don't see why several people seem so opposed to psychic warrior avangions.
Make an Epic psionic feat: improved power capacity just like the caster version..... this has use for a psychic warrior due to epic expanded knowledge, or independant research into powers. (ie the psychic warrior can choose to learn psion powers of levels 7 or higher in this method.)
Which removes the issue you had of requiring a PrC..... though I reccomend making one like I was describing anyway..... as it would be useful for other situations.
Now you see, the whole 7th level thing is just bad, I've given my reasons why, there has been nothing remotely close to countering my reasons -- the only argument against it I've seen is that Psychic Warriors shouldn't be Avangions -- which I've argued that there should be the possibility of Psychic Warriors as Avangions. Especially since raising the manifester level to 7th basically mandates the Cerebrmancer class to always be used -- it's already pretty much up there with the 6th level powers. The mechanics for conversion from 2E -> 3.5E state with multiclass/dualclass characters, you take the full levels of their "primary" or highest-level class, and then 1/3 of all of the others. That would be 20 + 20/3, or 26 character levels for a 2E character heading to 3rd level. That would mean, iwith 9th level spells that gives you at the minimum, a 17th level wizard, and therefore that gives you 9 levels for Psion, or 5th level powers. I had chosen 6th level powers because the Psychic Warriors can get up to that, and it would mean you're talking about quite a number of levels for a Psychic Warrior. I felt the additional 2 levels (for a 28th level character instead of a 26th level character) was justified. Raising the base level to 30 isn't. In fact, it weakens and breaks the character further -- making their spellcasting level farther from their character level, and not impacting their manifester level to character level difference one bit. The character becomes weaker as a result, because for manifesting and spellcasting characters, the spellcaster and manifester levels are of the utmost importance for survivability. And, we're talking about Avangions here -- does it make ANY sense at all that an Avangion would be fundamentally weaker with magic and psionics than a Dragon? That's what is being done when the power level is bumped to 7th level.
If you want to make life more difficult for a Psychic Warrior, fine. Raising the power level hurts the Avangions in total. Banning Psychic Warriors for the sake of banning Psychic Warriors is lame. Making life not so worth-while for them to be Avangions, that's perfectly acceptable.
And about the silly little thing dealing with the Base Attack Bonus. That can be easily solved by having Avangions only be able to use the two lowest Attacks from their Base Attack Bonus (if they get multiple attacks from it). Suddenly that's not an issue, and it does hamper the Psychic Warrior even more. See? It's not hard to develop ways to strongly discourage the process, without hurting ALL of the Avangions with a rediculous idea like 7th level power requirements.
Why is this even necessary? A psychic warrior becoming an avangion seems perfectly inline with all previous DS materials. 2e had only one psionic class, and if I recall correctly the first avangion was formerly a champion of Rajaat who eliminated the Lizard Men (except those protected by the Mind Lords). Who's to say Keltis wasn't a psychic warrior before he had a change of heart? I just don't see why several people seem so opposed to psychic warrior avangions.
Because some people think that a Psychic Warrior could never, ever be able to be rectified with the philosphies of their views of Avangions. Then there are those who think that the solution is more PrC's -- which only complicates and doesn't solve a problem like this. The best solution is to not ban the process from Psychic Warriors -- just make it hard for them. The Avangion is already not an optimal choice for a Psychic Warrior to become, and the character would be considerably weaker by being a Psychic Warrior who became an Avangion than a Psion who did. There are those who argue differently, but so far, it's been things that make little relevence to the process.
Xlor: psychic warriors should be allowed
Seker: no they shouldn't
Xlor: yes they should
Seker: no they shouldn't
Xlor: yes they should
Seker: no they shouldn't
Xlor: yes they should
Seker: no they shouldn't
Xlor: yes they should
Seker: no they shouldn't
Xlor: yes they should
Seker: no they shouldn't
Xlor: yes they should
Seker: no they shouldn't
Xlor: yes they should
Seker: no they shouldn't
Xlor: yes they should
Seker: no they shouldn't
Xlor: yes they should
Seker: no they shouldn't
Xlor: yes they should
Seker: no they shouldn't
Xlor: yes they should
Seker: no they shouldn't
Xlor: yes they should
Seker: no they shouldn't
Xlor: yes they should
Seker: no they shouldn't
Xlor: yes they should
Seker: no they shouldn't
Xlor: yes they should
Seker: no they shouldn't
Xlor: yes they should
Seker: no they shouldn't
Xlor: yes they should
Seker: no they shouldn't
Xlor: yes they should
Seker: no they shouldn't
Xlor: yes they should
uhhh......
Seker: no they shouldn't
Xlor: yes they should
Seker: no they shouldn't
Xlor: yes they should
Seker: no they shouldn't
Xlor: yes they should
Seker: no they shouldn't
Xlor: yes they should
Seker: no they shouldn't
Xlor: yes they should
Seker: no they shouldn't
:P
:PHere's a rundown of the next 50 posts....
Hence the reason I bowed out early!
Now you see, the whole 7th level thing is just bad, I've given my reasons why, there has been nothing remotely close to countering my reasons -- the only argument against it I've seen is that Psychic Warriors shouldn't be Avangions -- which I've argued that there should be the possibility of Psychic Warriors as Avangions.
Actually Xlor, I am getting tired of this arguement, and unless you come up with something new in it.... this will be my last post on it.
I am getting tired of it because you keep stating I am saying things that I am not.
In my posts I have stated that I feel that psychic warriors SHOULD be able to become an Avangion if they take a step that shows their change of focus. You however, by your posts, seem to want them to be able to take it without the change of focus being demonstrated in any mechanical means.
I have given multiple reasons from WHAT IS WRITTEN in the official rule books why psychic warriors are based on a combat class, that augments their combat skills with psionic..... and I have refferenced the Dragon Kings book (the only official rules on Avangions up to this point) as to the fluff and nature of Avangions and why these two do NOT mesh as written.
I have offered several options as work arounds (not only the level 7 power requirment, if you bother to check my original posts)
However your entire arguement up to this point against my statements are that we should allow psychic warriors, just because they are new for all of the Advanced Being classes, even though this goes in the face of the fluff of Athas, as it was always reffering to people highly skilled and knowledgable in psionics prior (in fact in prior edition it required full masters of the way.)
And that you personally do not want us to take into account PrC's when looking at creating the Advanced beings..... particularly that you seem to have personal issues with the cerebramancer..... which for all intensive purposes was Wizard's nod that the multiclassing system for casters was inherently flawed. (which I have discussed at length with people before.) The PrC fixes a problem with multiclassing a psionic and arcane class.
Especially since raising the manifester level to 7th basically mandates the Cerebrmancer class to always be used -- it's already pretty much up there with the 6th level powers. The mechanics for conversion from 2E -> 3.5E state with multiclass/dualclass characters, you take the full levels of their "primary" or highest-level class, and then 1/3 of all of the others. That would be 20 + 20/3, or 26 character levels for a 2E character heading to 3rd level. That would mean, iwith 9th level spells that gives you at the minimum, a 17th level wizard, and therefore that gives you 9 levels for Psion, or 5th level powers. I had chosen 6th level powers because the Psychic Warriors can get up to that, and it would mean you're talking about quite a number of levels for a Psychic Warrior. I felt the additional 2 levels (for a 28th level character instead of a 26th level character) was justified. Raising the base level to 30 isn't. In fact, it weakens and breaks the character further -- making their spellcasting level farther from their character level, and not impacting their manifester level to character level difference one bit. The character becomes weaker as a result, because for manifesting and spellcasting characters, the spellcaster and manifester levels are of the utmost importance for survivability. And, we're talking about Avangions here -- does it make ANY sense at all that an Avangion would be fundamentally weaker with magic and psionics than a Dragon? That's what is being done when the power level is bumped to 7th level.
Actually the conversion document you are refferencing was from 2nd ed to 3.0 not 3.5..... and there have been changes since then, but that is not the issue. (especially since there have been uncounted boards that went over how innacurrate the conversions were when dealing with characters with more than one casting/manifesting class. So using this as your refference does not help your case too much.)
And even at 6th level requirement I do not, personally, know one player that would not use then cerebramancer in going towards an advanced being.... and likely also taking the practiced spellcaster feat. Both in hopes of minimizing the issues caused by the flawed multiclassing system (at least in relation to casters, as it nerfs them quite badly)
And as I pointed out prior..... a character with the 7th level power requirement, using the official from WotC rules for the cerebramancer class for a psion/wizard has the exact same class levels as a character with the power level 6 requirement.
Again your issue seems to be with a PrC put out in the official book on psionics, specifically for the game system. And said PrC is a stop gap for a problem in the base multiclassing system.
If you want to make life more difficult for a Psychic Warrior, fine. Raising the power level hurts the Avangions in total. Banning Psychic Warriors for the sake of banning Psychic Warriors is lame. Making life not so worth-while for them to be Avangions, that's perfectly acceptable.
Again it only hurts the Avangion in games where the GM has chosen to remove part of the base rules (in the form of the PrC) for their own prefference.... at which point it is actually the GM's descision.
And about the silly little thing dealing with the Base Attack Bonus. That can be easily solved by having Avangions only be able to use the two lowest Attacks from their Base Attack Bonus (if they get multiple attacks from it). Suddenly that's not an issue, and it does hamper the Psychic Warrior even more. See? It's not hard to develop ways to strongly discourage the process, without hurting ALL of the Avangions with a rediculous idea like 7th level power requirements.
What you are talking about there is about the Avangions powers/form..... and this is a discussion on the prerequisites..... not to mention that idea has NO precidence in the DnD systems.
Overall I am getting sick of this diuscussion. And to be honest Xlor, alot of it was from the condescending comments you made earlier about both my ideas and my arguements. We have had usefull discussion before, including when I was helping you way back when with the mechanics of your dragon class, but frankly I do not appreciate how you handled it this time.
Actually Xlor, I am getting tired of this arguement, and unless you come up with something new in it.... this will be my last post on it.
My arguments still stand from the very beginning of this whole thread. You've not altered them one bit. I'm sorry about misconstruing and misinterpreting your statements, but you appeared to be arguing against Psychic Warriors, and now are saying you were not. I am puzzled at this.
In my posts I have stated that I feel that psychic warriors SHOULD be able to become an Avangion if they take a step that shows their change of focus. You however, by your posts, seem to want them to be able to take it without the change of focus being demonstrated in any mechanical means.
I was stating that there should be no 7th level power requirement in the mechanics. I was stating that I have no problems with making the Psychic Warrior have a more challenging time becoming an Avangion. I was stating that it should not be completely taken away from them. If you didn't disagree with this, then why did you keep arguing against it?
I have given multiple reasons from WHAT IS WRITTEN in the official rule books why psychic warriors are based on a combat class, that augments their combat skills with psionic..... and I have refferenced the Dragon Kings book (the only official rules on Avangions up to this point) as to the fluff and nature of Avangions and why these two do NOT mesh as written.
I have offered several options as work arounds (not only the level 7 power requirment, if you bother to check my original posts)
However your entire arguement up to this point against my statements are that we should allow psychic warriors, just because they are new for all of the Advanced Being classes, even though this goes in the face of the fluff of Athas, as it was always reffering to people highly skilled and knowledgable in psionics prior (in fact in prior edition it required full masters of the way.)
And that you personally do not want us to take into account PrC's when looking at creating the Advanced beings..... particularly that you seem to have personal issues with the cerebramancer..... which for all intensive purposes was Wizard's nod that the multiclassing system for casters was inherently flawed. (which I have discussed at length with people before.) The PrC fixes a problem with multiclassing a psionic and arcane class.
It's still really bad form to model something like the Advanced Beings off of the necessity of a particular PrC. Just like it is bad form to model a PrC to require a specific Base Class. What people do in their own games, they do.... it provides choice, freedom, and flexibility. Virtually mandating the use of a particular PrC -- one that does not even exist, and would also need to be playtested as well even -- that's a major stretch. But besides that, I've always been of the mind that when developing an official set of rules, one does not use existing PrC's as a required step for development. I have no problems with PrC's myself -- I have a problem with building the Advanced Beings so that someone needs to take another PrC before developing as an Advanced Being. THAT is my problem. Sure, people take the Cerebrmancer to develop into Advanced Beings in their own games -- but we shouldn't shove it down their throats -- there are people who dislike the Cerebrmancer class. Raising the power level to 7th level more or less does just that. Then it becomes a mandated PrC -- because otherwise the character has virtually no chance in hell with fighting things his or her level.
Actually the conversion document you are refferencing was from 2nd ed to 3.0 not 3.5..... and there have been changes since then, but that is not the issue. (especially since there have been uncounted boards that went over how innacurrate the conversions were when dealing with characters with more than one casting/manifesting class. So using this as your refference does not help your case too much.)
Moot point. The mechanics I'm refering to from that manual still apply in full. The things changed from 3.0 - 3.5 have no relevance to this discussion, and even if they did, then the next obvious step would be to take what was converted through the pamphlet, and then update to 3.5e.
What you are talking about there is about the Avangions powers/form..... and this is a discussion on the prerequisites.....
Your point being? I was giving an example showing that the prerequisites don't have to be the only thing deterring Psychic Warriors. AS I had said before.
Overall I am getting sick of this diuscussion. And to be honest Xlor, alot of it was from the condescending comments you made earlier about both my ideas and my arguements. We have had usefull discussion before, including when I was helping you way back when with the mechanics of your dragon class, but frankly I do not appreciate how you handled it this time.
And you call me condescending? Most of this argument got heated over a miscommunication. I had interpreted your posts as being "Psychic Warriors cannot be Avangions, and here's why..." even your posts on "suggestions" were really just more arguments against PsyWar Avangions from what I read. Further, my strongest, and most solid point, the one I will not budge one iota on, is the 6th level power prerequisites. They cannot go up. That would cause a number of problems in the mechanics, unless everyone becomes required to use a class like the Cerebrmancer -- which I am against basically forcing people to use such things. Not because of any problems with the Cerebrmancer, but because I'm against cookie-cutter character development. And mandating, even implied mandates of the Cerebrmancer does such things.
Here's a rundown of the next 50 posts....
You forget an inflammatory remark by Xlorep about 25 posts down that he will remove before too many people see it, hehe.
:bounce:
Sorry guys =( but from what I am seeing here why not just give avangions the ability to fuel all their spells and abilities from their bodies instead of relying on plant life/animal life and that would be their advantage over dragons.
If the two where on a completely defiled island with just the two of them the avangion would have a decided magical advantage while the dragon would still be physically imposing.
The avangion uses his body to fuel magic, the dragon uses his body to destroy things.
omfg, my post just pushed avangion 3.5 relase date back like 6 months.
Sorry guys =( but from what I am seeing here why not just give avangions the ability to fuel all their spells and abilities from their bodies instead of relying on plant life/animal life and that would be their advantage over dragons.
If the two where on a completely defiled island with just the two of them the avangion would have a decided magical advantage while the dragon would still be physically imposing.
The avangion uses his body to fuel magic, the dragon uses his body to destroy things.
That's more or less one of the defining differences I've been envisioning. The Avangion basically, as he or she develops, gains more and more independence from using external energy sources. The final stage provides a permanent best terrain bonus (I think it's fertile) for the Avangion. I'd also like to see them be able to possibly be able to regenerate a certain number of power points for a cost (like maybe an equivalent spell slot), or a certain spell slot to convert into power points, or some other trick we've not devised yet.
My arguments still stand from the very beginning of this whole thread. You've not altered them one bit. I'm sorry about misconstruing and misinterpreting your statements, but you appeared to be arguing against Psychic Warriors, and now are saying you were not. I am puzzled at this.
Actually in my first couple of posts, I stated that I did not like psychic warriors for avangions at all..... but after that when we started our larger posts, I specified that I had no problem of a psychic warrior that had changed mechanically to show that it had an internal focus should be able to qualify.... and while I have always said that I preffered the 7th level powers as a prerequisite in part to do this..... I also gave other options earlier on. (such as discipline power requirements or the like, which would only require feats to do. And I proved to you that that was the case.) We got into our normal long drawn out battle on a specific option which I preffer and you despise.
I was stating that there should be no 7th level power requirement in the mechanics. I was stating that I have no problems with making the Psychic Warrior have a more challenging time becoming an Avangion. I was stating that it should not be completely taken away from them. If you didn't disagree with this, then why did you keep arguing against it?
Because I disagree on the 7th level requirement, and feel that the psychic warrior SHOULD have to make a significant change to be able to qualify for this..... epic feats are a low powered version of this change but to be perfectly honest I think that without a PrC you are not going to show that kind of drastic change in focus... because as long as you are leveling in psychic warrior you are showing that you are focussed on combat more than psionics, by the nmechanics of the class. I was saying that it should not be taken completely away.... but that there has to be an intermediate stage to show the level of change that this requires..... the reason I was recommending a PrC.
It's still really bad form to model something like the Advanced Beings off of the necessity of a particular PrC. Just like it is bad form to model a PrC to require a specific Base Class. What people do in their own games, they do.... it provides choice, freedom, and flexibility. Virtually mandating the use of a particular PrC -- one that does not even exist, and would also need to be playtested as well even -- that's a major stretch. But besides that, I've always been of the mind that when developing an official set of rules, one does not use existing PrC's as a required step for development. I have no problems with PrC's myself -- I have a problem with building the Advanced Beings so that someone needs to take another PrC before developing as an Advanced Being. THAT is my problem. Sure, people take the Cerebrmancer to develop into Advanced Beings in their own games -- but we shouldn't shove it down their throats -- there are people who dislike the Cerebrmancer class. Raising the power level to 7th level more or less does just that. Then it becomes a mandated PrC -- because otherwise the character has virtually no chance in hell with fighting things his or her level.
Okay I am sick of this argument from you, so I am going to break down the mechanics of multiclassing wizard/psions to show you once and for all that even a power level 6 requirement, without the cerebramancer makes the caster and manifester literally an easy target vs. any CR of their level. I will show you both power level 6 and 7 and both the optimum build with cerebramancer and just with base classes and break down the issues with each.
arcane spell level 9, power level 6, epic spellcasting:
Optimum build wizard 7/psion 4/cerebramancer 10 (with practiced spellcaster feat, character level 21. Effective caster level 21, manifester level 14)
Pros: full caster level and good manifester level.
Cons: requires cerebramancer and practiced spellcaster feat, does not get bonus feats from base classes.
base build wizard 17/psion 11 (character level 28. caster level 17, manifester level 11)
Pros: gains bonus feats from psion and wizard class.
Cons: you have litterally a -11 (-55%) on caster level checks vs a caster of equal character level. This makes you useless as a caster against most encounters of your CR
arcane spell level 9, power level 7, epic spellcasting:
Optimum build wizard 7/psion 4/cerebramancer 10 (with practiced spellcaster feat, character level 21. Effective caster level 21, manifester level 14)
Pros: full caster level and good manifester level.
Cons: requires cerebramancer and practiced spellcaster feat, does not get bonus feats from base classes.
base build wizard 17/psion 13 (character level 30. caster level 17, manifester level 13)
Pros: gains bonus feats from psion and wizard class.
Cons: you have litterally a -13 (-65%) on caster level checks vs a caster of equal character level. This makes you useless as a caster against most encounters of your CR
Looking at either of the base builds.... they are both virtually useless as epic casters, and their psionics are even worse than the other builds. This is a flaw in multiclassing that the cerebramancer class was designed to fix. (just like the mystic theurge is designed to fix cleric/wizards)
In both cases the character would be no match for the CR's they are supposed to be fighting, and the additional 2 levels of psionics does not make that much of a difference when you look at it mathmatically.
Also please note Xlor, I have only been recomending a PrC requirement for a base class that has NO precident for becoming an Avangion. As you yourself have pointed out psychic warriors did not exist as a class in 2nd ed. So your arguement about wanting to keep options open for DM's is not accurate.... you are wanting to create a new option for them.
But you are asking me to prove why we should not have them...... when to be perfectly honest as you are trying to add a new feature to the advanced beings the Onus would be on you to prove why they do fit the Avangion..... which you have not done. (and as per the fluff and mechanics they do not fit, I am actually interested in your logic.)
Now while we did find fluff refferences for Dragons, there are none I have ever seen that give a precedince for a combat based character becoming an Avangion. (And Keltis from the fluff was a powerfull defiler and psionicist, there was no mention of him physically fighting anyone in anything I have read on him.)
Moot point. The mechanics I'm refering to from that manual still apply in full. The things changed from 3.0 - 3.5 have no relevance to this discussion, and even if they did, then the next obvious step would be to take what was converted through the pamphlet, and then update to 3.5e.
You did not address my other point, about this.... the fact that while the conversion works fine on single classed characters or characters without casting/manifesting..... it severely weakens multiple casting class characters unless you integrate the PrC's. This actually used to be an arguement you yourself used against people.
Your point being? I was giving an example showing that the prerequisites don't have to be the only thing deterring Psychic Warriors. AS I had said before.
I was trying to specify that while yes we can give examples of what can be done in the class all day long, that is not the topic of discussion here.
And you call me condescending? Most of this argument got heated over a miscommunication. I had interpreted your posts as being "Psychic Warriors cannot be Avangions, and here's why..." even your posts on "suggestions" were really just more arguments against PsyWar Avangions from what I read. Further, my strongest, and most solid point, the one I will not budge one iota on, is the 6th level power prerequisites. They cannot go up. That would cause a number of problems in the mechanics, unless everyone becomes required to use a class like the Cerebrmancer -- which I am against basically forcing people to use such things. Not because of any problems with the Cerebrmancer, but because I'm against cookie-cutter character development. And mandating, even implied mandates of the Cerebrmancer does such things.
I gave the arguement against your contention that 2 more levels of psion would weaken the class that much above..... broken down into mechanics and levels. Which that point is not as strong as you are saying as a character without PrC is really nonviable with either requirement. The implied mandate for the cerebramancer is actually created by the flawed multiclass system not by our suggestions on requirements.
Mathmatically your point that you have held too strongest has been shown to not be as major an issue as you have been making it..... when you are looking at a penalty of over 50% on the roll for either case..... that 10% is not that major. They are both toast, one is just a little more well done, but they are still both toast.
To be honest I do not personally know 1 player that would want to play a psion/wizard in a darksun campaign where the DM does not allow cerebramancers..... as the combination becomes almost unplayable.
And my refference to your being condescending can be summed up in a couple of quotes from your posts.
"And I am totally, vehemently, and completely opposed to a 7th level powers requirement in any Advanced Being. To me, that's just a fundamentally dumb idea."
and
"It still comes down to the perception that the Psychic Warrior just "shouldn't" -- and yet with how the mechanics have already been defined, and should be applied across the board -- the only reason for this seems akin to a temper tantrum in it's rationality."
shows a bit more than condescension to other peoples ideas and beliefs.
That's more or less one of the defining differences I've been envisioning. The Avangion basically, as he or she develops, gains more and more independence from using external energy sources. The final stage provides a permanent best terrain bonus (I think it's fertile) for the Avangion. I'd also like to see them be able to possibly be able to regenerate a certain number of power points for a cost (like maybe an equivalent spell slot), or a certain spell slot to convert into power points, or some other trick we've not devised yet.
Actually it is time to shock you all..... this is something me and Xlor have always been in agreement on..... the actual effects of the advanced beings, like the Avangions. We both love the idea of them being their own energy source.
And my refference to your being condescending can be summed up in a couple of quotes from your posts.
"And I am totally, vehemently, and completely opposed to a 7th level powers requirement in any Advanced Being. To me, that's just a fundamentally dumb idea."
That was an attack on the idea, not the people behind the idea. I'm sorry if it was percieved as condescending, I really did not mean it that way.
"It still comes down to the perception that the Psychic Warrior just "shouldn't" -- and yet with how the mechanics have already been defined, and should be applied across the board -- the only reason for this seems akin to a temper tantrum in it's rationality."
I apologize for this one wholeheartedly. I thought I had edited out all my little explosions, and I guess I missed this.
I guess I can see your point about the Cerebrmancer. However, I'd rather it not be taken into consideration when developing the Advanced Beings (ok, in a more generalized sort of way), mainly because I see it as a "short cut" method to accomplishing the goals. I can see why you'd want the 7th level power requirement then. I'd still much rather we used another mechanic to control this, rather than the power level requirement. There's other ones to choose from. It could even be a simple as when we were considering ideas for the Epic Seed of yours, to throw in a Power Point requirement into the casting of the spells; If the requirement is higher than a Psychic Warrior can attain, then the Psychic Warrior isn't gonna be able to cast the spell to even become an Avangion, will he?
Actually it is time to shock you all..... this is something me and Xlor have always been in agreement on..... the actual effects of the advanced beings, like the Avangions. We both love the idea of them being their own energy source.
Actually, Seker and I do bounce around at times, battling out the finer details of one thing or another, sometimes eventually coming up with a solution together, sometimes just deciding to agree to disagree on the subject :P
That was an attack on the idea, not the people behind the idea. I'm sorry if it was percieved as condescending, I really did not mean it that way.
I apologize for this one wholeheartedly. I thought I had edited out all my little explosions, and I guess I missed this.
No harm no foul. we both get worked up a bit when we "discuss" things
I cannot say I am totally innocent on making leading remarks myself sometimes.I guess I can see your point about the Cerebrmancer. However, I'd rather it not be taken into consideration when developing the Advanced Beings (ok, in a more generalized sort of way), mainly because I see it as a "short cut" method to accomplishing the goals. I can see why you'd want the 7th level power requirement then. I'd still much rather we used another mechanic to control this, rather than the power level requirement. There's other ones to choose from. It could even be a simple as when we were considering ideas for the Epic Seed of yours, to throw in a Power Point requirement into the casting of the spells; If the requirement is higher than a Psychic Warrior can attain, then the Psychic Warrior isn't gonna be able to cast the spell to even become an Avangion, will he?
That is an interesting idea on the spell seed, although the issue we run inot there is the fact that versions of the advanced being spells can be researched to cast on others. And the power point cost comes from the caster per what we have worked on it so far.
The best other options I could see, to be perfectly honest, would be one or more required 6th level powers (specifically from the discipline lists..... this would require epic expanded knowledge as feats for psychic warriors and expanded knowledge feats from psions and wilders.).... Although unless we make this reuqirement rather major, we are looking at a really minor thing for a psychic warrior..... not the change of focus I was reffering too.
Although I still preffer the 7th level power requirement.
I can personally also see uses for the improved power capacity feat, if not as a feat then as an aspect of the Avangion class itself. (think about it.... this would mean a psychic warrior could eventually gain the ability to manifest 9th level powers or higher.... and combined with epic expanded knowledge and expanded knowledge feats you could actually have a psychic warrior that eventually masters the more powerful powers of the mind.) This epic feat could even be one of the bonus feats for the epic levels of the psychic warrior class.
Also the PrC I was reffering too would be easy to make as it can easily be based off the sublime chord PrC and would take me maybe a couple hours to write at most.
Actually, Seker and I do bounce around at times, battling out the finer details of one thing or another, sometimes eventually coming up with a solution together, sometimes just deciding to agree to disagree on the subject :P
yeah but when we finally get down to the brass tacks and get to a point were we are working on the idea on the same track we end up coming with some massive stuff
That is an interesting idea on the spell seed, although the issue we run inot there is the fact that versions of the advanced being spells can be researched to cast on others. And the power point cost comes from the caster per what we have worked on it so far.
Well, true. I'm not saying it's the end-all, be-all solution, but can definitely help lead in a right direction. Have the seed have a range/target of personal/self as well, forcing people to have to make those fun alterations that bloat the Spellcraft DC in order to cast it on others (I think we already have that, however).
The best other options I could see, to be perfectly honest, would be one or more required 6th level powers (specifically from the discipline lists..... this would require epic expanded knowledge as feats for psychic warriors and expanded knowledge feats from psions and wilders.).... Although unless we make this reuqirement rather major, we are looking at a really minor thing for a psychic warrior..... not the change of focus I was reffering too.
Throw in some higher skill requiremens as well, I say.
Although I still preffer the 7th level power requirement.
I can personally also see uses for the improved power capacity feat, if not as a feat then as an aspect of the Avangion class itself. (think about it.... this would mean a psychic warrior could eventually gain the ability to manifest 9th level powers or higher.... and combined with epic expanded knowledge and expanded knowledge feats you could actually have a psychic warrior that eventually masters the more powerful powers of the mind.) This epic feat could even be one of the bonus feats for the epic levels of the psychic warrior class.
Also the PrC I was reffering too would be easy to make as it can easily be based off the sublime chord PrC and would take me maybe a couple hours to write at most.
I'm really unfamiliar with the Sublime Chord PrC. I guess I'll need to look it up sometime. I do like where you are heading with an "Improved Power Capacity" feat combined with Epic Expanded Knowledge. And I guess, we are talking about Avangions here. There is precidence for them having higher level requirements, insofar as 20 levels of Preserver was more expensive XP-wise than 20 levels of Defiler.
I know this may sound revolutionary, but maybe a combination of higher level requirement (yes, that's right, I'm recending the argument against 7th level requisites after all), higher skill requirements, and extra power points needed for the Spell. I'd almost even want something about the Preserver Metamorphosis spells needing a Fort Save vs. something drastic, like Constitution damage (or drain), reflecting the really dangerous aspects of casting those spells, the weakening physically of the body at each step, and the personal sacrifices the Avangion undergoes with the metamorphosis.
yeah but when we finally get down to the brass tacks and get to a point were we are working on the idea on the same track we end up coming with some massive stuff
Does this mean both you fellows are going to kiss and make up now :D
heh we always do...... this kind of arguement is par for the course for us. Heck back when he was doing his pwn version of the dragon before the Epic bureau was started.... we went after each other hammer and tongs and ended up working together on getting his PrC's more in line with the epic rules in the end.
I think he enjoys it as much as I do. :P
Well, true. I'm not saying it's the end-all, be-all solution, but can definitely help lead in a right direction. Have the seed have a range/target of personal/self as well, forcing people to have to make those fun alterations that bloat the Spellcraft DC in order to cast it on others (I think we already have that, however).
Throw in some higher skill requiremens as well, I say.
I'm really unfamiliar with the Sublime Chord PrC. I guess I'll need to look it up sometime. I do like where you are heading with an "Improved Power Capacity" feat combined with Epic Expanded Knowledge. And I guess, we are talking about Avangions here. There is precidence for them having higher level requirements, insofar as 20 levels of Preserver was more expensive XP-wise than 20 levels of Defiler.
I know this may sound revolutionary, but maybe a combination of higher level requirement (yes, that's right, I'm recending the argument against 7th level requisites after all), higher skill requirements, and extra power points needed for the Spell. I'd almost even want something about the Preserver Metamorphosis spells needing a Fort Save vs. something drastic, like Constitution damage (or drain), reflecting the really dangerous aspects of casting those spells, the weakening physically of the body at each step, and the personal sacrifices the Avangion undergoes with the metamorphosis.
I think we might be on to something here..... that sounds like we might have a plan there.
Anyone else have suggestions on specific skills they would like to see in the requirements?
or other requirements?
I'd almost even want something about the Preserver Metamorphosis spells needing a Fort Save vs. something drastic, like Constitution damage (or drain), reflecting the really dangerous aspects of casting those spells, the weakening physically of the body at each step, and the personal sacrifices the Avangion undergoes with the metamorphosis.
Back in 2e defiler metamorphosis was much more dangerous than the preserver metamorphosis spell. If you failed the system shock roll for defiler metamorphosis you died; for preserver metamorphosis you merely lost XP to bring you down a level.
Also, although clearly implied in the descriptions of each stage, the avangion never actually lost any ability points in Strength (or anything else). While Strength losses are probably reasonable to impose on the would-be avangion, I don't think any sort of Constitution penalty is warranted, since everyone seems happy with the idea that avangions become a wellspring of vital energy.
Back in 2e defiler metamorphosis was much more dangerous than the preserver metamorphosis spell. If you failed the system shock roll for defiler metamorphosis you died; for preserver metamorphosis you merely lost XP to bring you down a level.
I always get those two mixed up.
I think we might be on to something here..... that sounds like we might have a plan there.
Anyone else have suggestions on specific skills they would like to see in the requirements?
or other requirements?
Knowledge (nature) and Autohypnosis (just to go with the idea I had for them being able to recall spells and have some limited spontanious casting ability).
Adding feat requirements would be a good way to go as welland would not be out of the question- maybe Toughness and/or Great Fortitude. I think that Path Dexter should also be required (they are true Preservers).
a) Keep the 9th level spells and 6th level psionic powers requirement
- if people want to screw up their psychic warrior characters, so be it. There are so few avangions around, we cannot really draw conclusions whether it is possible for a psychic warrior to become one anyway. The known avangions would most likely have been psions. No need to elaborate further.
b) Increase the prestige class requirements of the avangion by requiring more skill ranks than the dragon prc, and possibly Skill Focus feats.
My suggestions based on these loooong discussions would be
a) Keep the 9th level spells and 6th level psionic powers requirement
- if people want to screw up their psychic warrior characters, so be it. There are so few avangions around, we cannot really draw conclusions whether it is possible for a psychic warrior to become one anyway. The known avangions would most likely have been psions. No need to elaborate further.
b) Increase the prestige class requirements of the avangion by requiring more skill ranks than the dragon prc, and possibly Skill Focus feats.
*cough*cough*skill focus: knowledge (nature)*cough*cough*
Rather through feats or prc, it is completely plausible to say: Well your psionic warrior may be able to get up to a certain stage in avagion class, then simply, not go up any further.
to solve this option you could take this quickly made prestige class based off of the sublime cord from complete arcane
<-what a...3rd stage avangion looks like (in my mind)Introverted Warrior
Sometimes the warrior's body, or spirit gives out so it no longer lusts for battle...luckily for the psionic warrior, he is able to change his focus and become more like his inwardly focussed brethren.
Requirements:
Skills: Knowledge (Psionics) +13, Concentration +13, Autohypnosis +10, Psicraft +4
Powers: Must be able to manifest 3rd level powers
Special: Must have his psionic powers based off of wisdom score
Class Skills:
Autohypnosis (wis), Concentration (con), Craft (int), Knowledge (All Skills, Taken Individually) (int), Profession (wis), Psicraft (int), Search (int)
2+int bonus
Class Features:
Weapons and Armor: The introverted warrior gains no weapon or armor proficiencies
Bonus Feats: Gains feats of a psion of equal level to this class
Power Points Per Day: Follow chart to get the amount of power points he receives. He adds this prestige class to his highest manifester level. An introverted receives bonus power points through wisdom, it's dc's are also pulled from level in addition to wisdom modifier. Finally, the Introverted warrior may choose powers from the Wilder List.
1. What level of powers would they be able to select from?
2. Profession (astrologer) +6- Really? Why? IMO this skill has nothing to do with psionics or the evolution of a battle based psychic warrior to a more psionic focused psychic warrior. Suggest that you replace this with Psicraft.
I would also suggest adding some additional information- the fluff if you will, to kind of get everyone a better idea of what ehy do, their history, and how they interact with other classes.
If you would like some help getting it into the proper format just ask and I am sure that someone on this board will be more then willing in helping you out.
Good job. O and I really like the picture. Where did you get it from?
Edit: oh by the way, i got it from the game diablo 2. It was teh closest thing i could get to what i saw in last night's fever dream...crazy stuff goes on when you have a temperature of 106
Perhaps that should have its own thread...
Good point CSK- hey Malniemel when you redo this PrC set it up on its own thread and we will be able to focus on it reather than derail this thread- which BTW- is generating some good ideas for the Avangion.
My suggestions based on these loooong discussions would be
a) Keep the 9th level spells and 6th level psionic powers requirement
- if people want to screw up their psychic warrior characters, so be it. There are so few avangions around, we cannot really draw conclusions whether it is possible for a psychic warrior to become one anyway. The known avangions would most likely have been psions. No need to elaborate further.
b) Increase the prestige class requirements of the avangion by requiring more skill ranks than the dragon prc, and possibly Skill Focus feats.
hehe... I know me and xlor get long winded, but we eventually work things out.
I have stated my reasons why I preffer a 7th level power requirement many times and have proven mathmatically that it does not cause the massive penalty over a 6th level requirement that many have believed (and using the optimal progression using cerebramancer it is identical in class levels for the power level 6 or 7 characters.)
As I have said, as written the psychic warrior does not fit Avangion either fluff or mechanically. I think that if we set the requirements in such a way as to require the psychic warrior to need to make a significant change towards a more internal ideal than combat based. Note I have also done the math on a psychic warrior, and while they must start at a higher level the more they focus in psychic warrior the nastier they get towards being a combat based Avangion. Remember that BAB gets really useful when dealing in the touch attack and ranged touch attack spells (which are normally more powerful than spells that do not require a attack roll.) Not too mention shapechanging magic and various psionic powers from the psychic warrior list could give the Avangion new attack modes again. (and the claw powers would leave the defensive powers still intact) So add a high BAB to being almost impossible to kill from the changes for the avangion (if we translate them from how they were in 2ed) and you have a combat god, that no dragon can rival..... because while a Psychic warrior dragon can match the BAB.... their defensive abilities will be much weaker from what has been discussed on it.
Base line optimal psion/wizard using spell level 9 and power level 6
7 wizard/ 4 psion/ 10 cerebramancer
BAB +11/ +6
Base line optimal psychic warrior/wizard using spell level 9 and power level 6
6 psychic warrior/ 4 wizard/ 10 cerebramancer/ 3 epic for wizard
(2 levels more than psion)
BAB +13/ +8
2 more bonus than psion
stronger fighter based optimal psychic warrior/wizard using spell level 9 and power level 6
16 psychic warrior/ 4 wizard/ 10 epic cerebramancer and 3 epic for wizard (or 13 epic wizard)
(12 more levels than psion)
BAB +21/ +16/ +11
5 more bonus than psion (possibly 3 bonus wizard feats)
So I hate to say it but you actually end up with a more dangerous avangion when you use psychic warrior. Which means unless we have a way to discourage it, that will end up the preffered class. Even though it is something being added to the PrC without any precedent for it in the fluff or mechanics prior. (dragons had a precedent from the fluff at least.)
Given all this I reccomend one of the following two as how we should do the prerequisites. (both limit psychic warriors, but as I said in previous posts these can be overcome with feats and or PrC's)
1)
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 24 ranks, Knowledge (psionics) 24 ranks, Knowledge (nature) 12 ranks.
Feats: Skill focus (Knowledge: nature), any 2 metamagic feats and 2 metapsionic feats.
Spells: Must be able to cast 9th-level arcane spells
Psionics: Must be able to manifest 7th-level psionic powers.
Special: Must be a preserver and have cast the preserver metamorphosis I spell.
2)
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 24 ranks, Knowledge (psionics) 24 ranks, Knowledge (nature) 12 ranks.
Feats: Skill focus (Knowledge: nature), any 2 metamagic feats and 2 metapsionic feats.
Spells: Must be able to cast 9th-level arcane spells.
Psionics: Must be able to manifest 6th-level psionic powers, including at least one discipline power of level 6 or higher and one power of level 6 or higher on the psion/wilder list.
Special: Must be a preserver and have cast the preserver metamorphosis I spell.
How are these two options for everyone?
Psionics: Must be able to manifest 6th-level psionic powers, including at least one discipline power of level 6 or higher and one power of level 6 or higher on the psion/wilder list.
Any psychic warrior can achieve this by level 17 with say breath of the black dragon (also on the psion/wilder list) and dispelling buffer (a kineticist discipline power), both of which are 6th level powers for all involved classes.
Any psychic warrior can achieve this by level 17 with say breath of the black dragon (also on the psion/wilder list) and dispelling buffer (a kineticist discipline power), both of which are 6th level powers for all involved classes.
you are right so we need to figure a way to specify powers that are not on the psychic warrior list, I am on my way to work right now but I will look at other options when I get home.
This difficulty is one of the reasons I preffer a level 7 power requirement.... but only one of many reasons.
O and I really like the picture. Where did you get it from?
Diablo II.
I knew I had seen it before- damn early stages of alzheimers.
They say that with old age, vision is the 2nd thing to go. I don't remember what the first one is.
They say that with old age, vision is the 2nd thing to go. I don't remember what the first one is.
lol :D