We know that Kyuss was basically prodded into godhood by a spellweaver lich. We also get the intimation that the worms are actually from the spellweaver's realm or at least from somewhere else.
We know that there is a large ruin that contained a relatively large conclave of spellweavers who somehow caused a planar rift at some point in Greyhawk's past. We also know that these spellweavers used mirror gates to get to different spots on Oerth. (The only one still active presumably goes to a place 500 miles west of Cauldron buried in a desert.)
We also know that Kyuss was originally attracted to the spot in the Amedio by spellweaver tablets. I am assuming these would be similar to the ones that are in the SCAP showing how to use the mirror gates.
A couple of questions that I would ask (which probably don't have answers) would be when did the spellweavers come to Oerth based on a commonly accepted canon timeline? (We can say for sure that at least one was here during the time of the Empire of Sulm.) I know there is a given timeline and backstory for the Demonskar and spellweavers in the SCAP hardback but I am not sure how that jives with Greyhawk's historical timeline.
Did they come before or after their civilization collapsed? And how much of an affect did they have on existing cultures and societies that they encountered on Oerth?
This probably is just meanderings for the most part considering the SCAP wasn't originally created for Greyhawk but since it is firmly set there now I think it makes for some interesting speculation about regions outside of the commonly detailed areas of the Flanaess.
My own supposition right now would be they have been interested in Oerth for quite some time and actually had a presence long before the rise of the Suel Imperium (perhaps even meddling in the creation of it). That at some point they suffered the cataclysmic event that destroyed much of their power and stranded some of them here on Oerth. Perhaps even before the Suel was a singular culture.
Anyway I am far from a font of historical Greyhawk knowledge and would love to hear how other people have reconciled the spellweavers or if they have thought much about the ramification of such an old powerful race on Oerth.
Kyuss discovered the spellweaver ruins and communicated with some spellweavers who were in the area trying to research something of the science of their ancestors. The lich was probably of more recent origin, becoming a lich to avoid the reproductive imperative that would have killed him rather than to survive the ancient cataclysm, which I think was of a far greater magnitude than even a lich would have survived (a demilich, on the other hand, may well have survived it).
My only thought would be the prevalence of artifacts in Greyhawk. Perhaps the spellweavers were drawn to Oerth in prehistory because they knew it would see the birth of a lot of powerful artifacts and they picked an out of the way location to observe and meddle on occasion. Sort of like a 'prime directive' for spellweavers. The mirror gates were a way for them to readily travel to different important locations on Oerth and the nerra were another set of eyes that they impressed into service to keep an eye on arcane happenings that interested them.
The experiment in planar magic was probably the infamous spellweaver attempt at "reuniting" the multiverse into a single plane, which led to the fall of their civilization.
Probably the city was built on a confluence of ley lines or "oerthmagic," where their powers were enhanced and the boundaries between dimensions were weakened.
Barring some brilliant retcon, this is basically what I'm working with. Although I actually really like what authors (particularly Tito Leati) have done with the spellweavers and now think of them as a rather nifty D&D race, I would never have put them in the Amedio deliberately. It's part of the framework I inherited with the "Dungeon continuity" vis a vis the adventure paths. Like I said, I've grown to like it, but they would not have been my first choice.
My first choice would not have been in the Amedio at all, most likely. I threw together the beginnings of a campaign outline set in the Hardby region and eventually moving to Greyhawk about two years ago. A few of the ideas eventually made it to the Age of Worms (the Rod of Seven Parts was to figure much more prominently in my campaign), but not all of them. I'll have to post that at some point, as soon as I get out from under all of these damn deadlines.
--Erik
Although the more I think about it, the more I like the placement within the amedio. The amedio location allows yourself and fan based fiction to develop and enhance the "spellweavers" with minimal canon interference or complex explainations due to the jungles' very isolation within GH.
Given the lack of information of the area and the spellweavers within the gameworld, perhaps they could even be molded into a clandistine shadowy menace that the SB once filled within GH before the wars.
).That said - the Spellweavers would probably be more interested in a magical nexus than the balmyness of the climate.
(The only one still active presumably goes to a place 500 miles west of Cauldron buried in a desert.)
I assume that this refers to the Sea of Dust?
P.
That leads me to make some surmises regarding illithid-vs.-spell-weaver struggles throughout Oerth's history. After all, they can't BOTH restore their prehistoric dominions. That's fertile ground for 'revelations' about Oerth's pre-history.
I am one who has absolutely notta for info on Greyhawk/Oerth, and what is SCAP? BUT, I do so love my spellweavers, and had not realized that their intentions, plots, and cosmos-wide activities had been published anywheres... Help a brotha out here, because I am an experienced D&Der, but never have I stepped across this line, in order to learn about them...
Still kind of new to the community here, too, but I am in another which might interest thee....
http://elftown.lysator.liu.se part of http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se 's greater branches....
Thanks for any responses and info. I'd love to know the titles of any books (outside of the MMII) that include information on the spellweavers...
Any good forum posts on Illithid or 'Lords of Madness' that you guys have seen?
-will
...and what is SCAP?
Shackled City Adeventure Path - it was a series of adventures that ran in Dungeon set in the city of Cauldron, which has been placed in the Flanaess where the Hellfurnaces meet the southern shores of Jeklea Bay.
It's related to the current Adventure Path in Dungeon - the Age of Worms, which, though hidden behind a burka of genericness, is pure Greyhawkana.
P.
I assume that this refers to the Sea of Dust?
P.
That's basically what I am using as the location. It doesn't jive well with the timeline... But really the only location that makes sense. Presumably the spell weavers had their nerra allies create the mirror gates to enable quick transportation to important areas on Oerth. The question is where would these locations be? (Empire of Lynn, The place name "Erypt", etc, etc. all make good suppositions but if you buy into the timeline that is given the Suel Imperium is much too new for it to be prominent that far back. Perhaps this gate is actually to a city that predates the Suel and it's existance was the beginning of a spell weaver Machiavelian plot that ended with the Invoked Devastation and Rain of Colorless Fire? Certainly works with what we know given the recent ecology article.
Funny how plopping a creature from the MM2 into a Dungeon adventure can start the cosmos spinning on its axis.
A couple of thoughts that I had when reading the material:
Wouldn't it make sense for Cauldron to be an old Suel outpost that was abandoned after the Rain of Colorless Fire? (I could certainly see this being primarily a gnome (Jzadirune) operation with overseers from the Imperium.) As Redgorge gets founded (by Surabar) they eventually strike up trade with these gnomes and finally settle in Cauldron as it is much more convient with trade to the northeast.
Sasserine probably makes the most sense as an independent city south of the Hold of Sea Princes, probably initially a den of pirates and cut-throats, slavers and worse. I kinda see it as a city that grew up over night as more and more merchants are attracted by the free trade, slaves, and in recent times avoiding Scarlet Brotherhood ports and ships.
Surabar smells pretty foreign to me. Maybe a great mage from far to the southwest of Cauldron? I know Erik talked about a land like 'Jahind' (something reconciling the Dragon Annual name and something from the Sagard books long ago on the boards here). This would make sense for a couple of reasons. First, the Demonskar could have been held in check primarily by the magical might of the Suel wizards up until their destruction 300 years before Surabar shows up. Secondly, it would make sense for a lawful entity to look for the closest 'good' and powerful magical ally once the Demonskar flares up again. Surabar, the Jahindi mage packs up his house and retainers and moves to the Cauldron area.
The other reason I like this idea is because some of the Cagewrights seem pretty foreign to me as well (I can't remember the name of the female that was very SW asian in flavor). I like the idea that some of them are from foreign lands also to the south and west of the Amedio and are eventually attracted by its 'planar conjuctional alignment' or some such.
One thing that still bugs me though is what happened with the northern Olman city?
(One thought that occured to me was perhaps Kyuss didn't take any Sulmish with him to the Amedio but simply subjugated the peoples of the northern Olman city. I think this would be too early for the Olman to be here but it would certainly tie things up nicely.)
Anyway just more ramblings as I prepare to run the SCAP and try to tie everything to Greyhawk a little bit more to my tastes.
Yes, the Shackled City would work well as the creation of ancient Suel mages (possibly even Mages of Power).
Given that it is an east India analogue in the same way the Flanaess is a western European analogue, I'm not sure the name "Surabar Spellmason" fits for the culture.
--Erik
Given that it is an east India analogue in the same way the Flanaess is a western European analogue, I'm not sure the name "Surabar Spellmason" fits for the culture.
Could be a Common-ized version of his name?
He might have got tired of the stoopid Flanaessi getting tangled up in the 24 syllable Zahindi version: Surabaraman Riteshimpattanapurami.
P.
Could be a Common-ized version of his name?
He might have got tired of the stoopid Flanaessi getting tangled up in the 24 syllable Zahindi version: Surabaraman Riteshimpattanapurami.
P.
Yeah I was ignoring the 'Spellmason' part of the name. I was hoping that was some sort of honorific or title that he gained translated to Common.
(Not to mention it is incredibly lame if it is simply a Flanaess surname.)
I have no idea if Surabar fits as an eastern Indian type name... my line of thought was Zanzibar = Surabar, ignore Spellmason as 'lame'. (Zanzibar being East African kinda doesn't help my case, eh?)
I mean after all, the great wizards don't carry surnames... Mordenkainen, Tenser, Elminster...
what a sec, Elminster Spellmason! It fits perfectly. :D
The Istivin backdrop in Dungeon #117 names the "India-like" nation southwest of the Sea of Dust as "Zahind," which is admittedly a bit of a play on the two names we already have for the place.
--Erik
I completely missed that even though I have those Dungeons. Zahind it is. Although I suppose depending on pronunciation Zahind/Jahind could be the same thing. [Quran/Koran, Xiang/Chiang]
Thanks!
P.
I am also coming to the conclusion that the spellweavers in the SCAP were definitely skewed to the "Horrificly Evil" side of the morale spectrum. I am basing this on the elven, dwarven necro-cold soul research; the fact that one of the survivors became a lich and turned Kyuss onto green worm things; and the one that is resurrected sees no problem helping out a high priestess of Nerull use one of the PC's souls as an offering (even though presumably he doesn't believe in divine powers being superior beings).
Anyway something to think about.
As for the Spellweavers being H(orrifically)E(vil) - perhaps or perhaps they were just dispassionately pursuing magical power and knowlege to all it's possible ends for the sake of knowledge and curiosity (I'm basing this on the impression I got of them from the MM, rather than any knowledge of the background of SCAP, mind you). Perhaps Kyuss then stumbled on that lore and turned it to evil ends?
P.
The one particular spellweaver in Age of Worms that ends up helping Kyuss is definitely evil being a lich and all. It is interesting that Kyuss is led to the Amedio (and that spellweaver) by some silver tablets that he found in ancient Sulm, presumably spellweaver tablets.
Also the spellweavers primary architecture being the pyramid makes things interesting when looking at the Olman/Tamoachan and maybe even an "Erypt" connection.
Oh and the pyramidal theme could be reflected in Zahind by the shapes of the shikaras (temple "steeples") and gopurams (pyramidal temple gateways) in Zahindi temples.
I think the ruins in the Amedio could well have preceded the collapse of spellweaver civilization - and, in fact, it was this collapse that made them ruins. I think you're right that this would probably have been long before the rise of the Suel.
Except I completely screwed up the Oerth timeline! :embarrass
For some reason I was thinking the Baklunish preceded the Suel but I was remembering back wards. The date (which I think comes from a Dragon mag article) is -5515 CY for the first year of the Suel calender. The Baklunish calendar starts at -2659 CY. If you figure that the SCAP starts around 591 CY then you are looking at the Suel having a calendar for almost 2000 years before the spellweavers found their city and 600 years before the Baklunish start their's.
Not quite sure how you secretly build a city with the Suel already living in your backyard... I suppose though if we are looking at the SCAP we can assume that the only above ground structure is the pyramidal "way-gate furnace thing" that they talk about in the Ecology article. Which could be cloaked magically, perhaps?
I find it interesting (trying to tie this in with the AoW) that Tamoachan's "devil worshiping" 'troglodytes' cease to exist about 2300 years after the spellweavers show up. And right around the time the dakon show up in the Amedio (+/- 100 years).
Also the yuan-ti are said to be born thanks to the Olman about 500 years after this.
What does it all mean?! I don't know, but there has to be some common thread that can unravel the whole tangle skein.
Not quite sure how you secretly build a city with the Suel already living in your backyard... I suppose though if we are looking at the SCAP we can assume that the only above ground structure is the pyramidal "way-gate furnace thing" that they talk about in the Ecology article. Which could be cloaked magically, perhaps?
Well they are spellweavers...
And the jungle is a big place - and easy to hide stuff in. I don't get the impression that the Suel were all over the Amedio on Godsday picnics. Most visitors might never have noticed, the few that did could disappear (bad things happen in the jungle after all) or be "altered" not to remember or made just crazy enough for no one to believe their stories. .
What does it all mean?! I don't know, but there has to be some common thread that can unravel the whole tangle skein.
It means don't set up shop in the Amedio if you want your civilisation to last.
More seriously though - does it have to mean anything? Sometimes stuff just happens and not everything can be bound up in a big conspiracy (esp on the level of the rise and fall of cultures - which of course follows its own natural rules).
OK - so there's obviously a reason why the Spellweavers chose to set up shop in the Amedio - some magical nexus or other. This might have local effects, it might have wider effects. Who knows.
The coincidence of the Dakon and the fall of Tamochan it probably not just coincidental - the dakon may have rooted them out.
Beyond that I would try tying too much together if there's no plausible causal link.
P.
For some reason I was thinking the Baklunish preceded the Suel but I was remembering back wards. The date (which I think comes from a Dragon mag article) is -5515 CY for the first year of the Suel calender. The Baklunish calendar starts at -2659 CY. If you figure that the SCAP starts around 591 CY then you are looking at the Suel having a calendar for almost 2000 years before the spellweavers found their city and 600 years before the Baklunish start their's.
It was SD 5516 in CY 1 according to the WoG boxed set, so yes.
Where'd you get the date for when the spellweavers founded their city? If you're counting back to the time of Sulm, I think the spellweaver empire was long dead at that point, and Kyuss came across a spellweaver lich and its cronies exploring the ancient, forgotten ruins of spellweaver civilization.
Keep in mind that the Suel calendar could have been created retroactively. They weren't necessarily keeping records in SD 1; they might just have decided in SD 5000 that some important historical event (the creation of the world, the banishment of the illithids, the birth of Wee Jas, the extinction of the dinosaurs, or whatever) happened fifty centuries before.
The Jewish calendar dates back to the creation of Adam.
Not quite sure how you secretly build a city with the Suel already living in your backyard... I suppose though if we are looking at the SCAP we can assume that the only above ground structure is the pyramidal "way-gate furnace thing" that they talk about in the Ecology article. Which could be cloaked magically, perhaps?
If we assume that Cauldron was created by the ancient Suel mages of power, then yes - the spellweaver ruins were in their backyard. However, Cauldron might not have been created until centuries after the time of Kyuss, or later still.
Why would it even have to be a secret? Maybe the Suel knew about it.
Where'd you get the date for when the spellweavers founded their city? If you're counting back to the time of Sulm, I think the spellweaver empire was long dead at that point, and Kyuss came across a spellweaver lich and its cronies exploring the ancient, forgotten ruins of spellweaver civilization.
Why would it even have to be a secret? Maybe the Suel knew about it.
The date is given in the SCAP hardcover basically -3500 CY. I do like your idea that the spellweavers were known by the Suel it actually makes certain things fit better.
More seriously though - does it have to mean anything? Sometimes stuff just happens and not everything can be bound up in a big conspiracy (esp on the level of the rise and fall of cultures - which of course follows its own natural rules).
Well what got me thinking along these lines is the recent ecology article in Dragon which pretty much hints that the spellweavers (since their own civilization went up in smoke) now make it a habit of causing cataclysmic events for other races, usually by giving them some sort of artifact or something.
So my thinking is that at some point the Suel go from peace loving albino merchants to war-mongering expansionist racists. After all there must be a reason for their society to last so incredibly long without any major conflict with their neighbors, until the Baklunish-Suel War.
So here's my speculation...
The group of spellweavers come to Oerth for various reasons. They know there is a lot of magical-machine artifact construction going on which really floats their boat (mainly with the Oerids). There is also a group that is bent more towards evil and they want to experiment with necromantic-cryo soul prison stuff. They pick a site close to the Suel for a couple of reasons: They figure it contains a jungle where there are no major civilizations, the area has several planar confluences which makes their interdimensional furnace thing easier to construct, and there is a group of Suel mages that has been studying necromancy (illegally) for hundreds of years close by.
So this gives us a couple of things, the spellweavers study their Uttercold magic by torturing elves, dwarves, and gnomes which gives rise to the Cagewright's soulcages. They create a mirror portal to the main outpost of Suel necromancers who help with these experiments as well as gaining an incredible amount of arcane knowledge from the spellweavers. The spellweavers influence causes a shift in power as these Suel mages become more powerful they take on roles of leadership in the Imperium. This leads to the Suel becoming more expansionist. They create the Orbs in order to give them an edge against those kingdoms that use dragons (Empire of Lynn, Celestial Imperium, etc.) The spellweavers are also using their mirror gates to contact the Oerids and other civilizations in order to study their artifacts in return for gifts of arcane power. Is this also the beginning of the Oerids empire becoming evil and their eventual migration to the Flanaess?
Anyway at some point the spellweavers city blows up creating multiple planar gates including a very large one to Yeenoghu's layer of the Abyss. Most of the spellweavers are wiped out, a few survive. Since the majority of spellweavers at this particular colony were evil it doesn't surprise us that the few survivors would be even more unhinged. They start up their program of cultural annhilation which leads to the Suel causing the Invoked Devastation after years of conflict with the Baklunish.
So my thinking is that at some point the Suel go from peace loving albino merchants to war-mongering expansionist racists. After all there must be a reason for their society to last so incredibly long without any major conflict with their neighbors, until the Baklunish-Suel War.
Who says they didn't?
I'm pretty sure they'd have butted heads with one or other of their neighbours in 5,000 or so years - most likely the Zahindis to the south (since that offers them a route to the sea and the spices that are likely to be found in tropical Zahind).
We know next to nothing about the history of the Suel Imperium or its neighbours (except that the Imperium was butteressed on all sides by mountains - which is handy defensively). They could have fought a hundred wars. The only one we've heard of is the last one (and AFAIK, there's no evidence against the last Bakluni-Suel war also being the first).
So there's no guarentee they were always peaceful albino merchants.
Equally, we know from the SB book that the SB and their xenophobic dogma was a feature of the late Imperium and not embraced by the entire populace (hence the "good" Suel of the the Rhola, Neheli, Zelrads and Maure) - though it was probably a good proportion. So they didn't all turn into racists. What did happen is that the nature of the governing elite changed.
The group of spellweavers come to Oerth for various reasons. They know there is a lot of magical-machine artifact construction going on which really floats their boat (mainly with the Oerids).
Hmm...if you're referencing the Machine of Lum the Mad and Leuk-o's warbot - remember that they were found (in the Flanaess) rather than constructed. Though it's possible that the ancient Oerids of the west had arcano-tech of that nature - I think it's unlikely. IMO at -3,500 CY, they were steppe nomads whose idea of high tech was a composite bow that didn't fall apart in the rain.
Better reasons for spellweavers coming to Oerth is the fact that (a) it appears to be an extradimensional nexus and (b) it has a lot of magical raw material like Oerthblood, Dweomerite and what ever the Causeway of Fiends and the Cauldron of Night are made from. That's the kind of stuff that get's your average spellweaver interested.
There is also a group that is bent more towards evil and they want to experiment with necromantic-cryo soul prison stuff. They pick a site close to the Suel for a couple of reasons: They figure it contains a jungle where there are no major civilizations, the area has several planar confluences which makes their interdimensional furnace thing easier to construct, and there is a group of Suel mages that has been studying necromancy (illegally) for hundreds of years close by.
I'd go with the middle reason. They probably didn't give two figs for "native life" like the Suel.
So this gives us a couple of things, the spellweavers study their Uttercold magic by torturing elves, dwarves, and gnomes which gives rise to the Cagewright's soulcages.
As an aside - I know there's a lich and stuff floating around here - but given these are alien intelligences, I'm inclined to think that their evil is a means to an end, rather than an end itself. I kinda see them as magical "greys" dabbling in undeath and sentient experimentation in their unblinking pursuit of magical lore and knowledge, as opposed to it just being for giggles and mu-hu-ha-ha factor, Iuz style.
They create a mirror portal to the main outpost of Suel necromancers who help with these experiments as well as gaining an incredible amount of arcane knowledge from the spellweavers. The spellweavers influence causes a shift in power as these Suel mages become more powerful they take on roles of leadership in the Imperium. This leads to the Suel becoming more expansionist. They create the Orbs in order to give them an edge against those kingdoms that use dragons (Empire of Lynn, Celestial Imperium, etc.) The spellweavers are also using their mirror gates to contact the Oerids and other civilizations in order to study their artifacts in return for gifts of arcane power. Is this also the beginning of the Oerids empire becoming evil and their eventual migration to the Flanaess?
Anyway at some point the spellweavers city blows up creating multiple planar gates including a very large one to Yeenoghu's layer of the Abyss. Most of the spellweavers are wiped out, a few survive. Since the majority of spellweavers at this particular colony were evil it doesn't surprise us that the few survivors would be even more unhinged. They start up their program of cultural annhilation which leads to the Suel causing the Invoked Devastation after years of conflict with the Baklunish.
This is possible. Might the Suel not instead have happened upon the remains of the Spellweaver's work in Cauldron and decided to investigate it? What they found there might have had the same effect, mind you - nudging the Imperium towards magic-inspired hubris, decadence and evil.
The Oerids are said to have had a homeland - but there's no mention of an empire as such. The fact that they were scattered across most of central Oerik says to me that they either (a) did have a central state and it was destroyed (possibly by the Bakluni or Sufheng) or (b) they were never really cohesive as a people in ancient times (the fact that their homeland is probably steppes suggests this).
BTW - I don't see the Imperium as having been corrupted specifically by necromancers - but instead by their hubrisitic belief in their might and superority.
It's entirelyn possible though that the Mages of Power might have gotten some of their lore from studying, if not the spellweavers themselves, then their remains and ruins. In that sense, they spellweavers might have had a subtle, indirect role in bringing about the Invoked Devestation and the Rain of Colourless Fire. I don't dig a direct - "Muhu-ha-ha-ha - let's nuke the Suel and the Bakluni, coz we're crazy" theory though. I prefer the idea that the Suel and Bakluni were masters of their own downfall, rather than being puppets of larger forces. I prefer the "picked up some dangerous knowledge from the spellweavers and did a cultural Icarus job on it" theory.
But that's me.
P.
Who says they didn't?
I'm pretty sure they'd have butted heads with one or other of their neighbours in 5,000 or so years - most likely the Zahindis to the south (since that offers them a route to the sea and the spices that are likely to be found in tropical Zahind).
Equally, we know from the SB book that the SB and their xenophobic dogma was a feature of the late Imperium and not embraced by the entire populace (hence the "good" Suel of the the Rhola, Neheli, Zelrads and Maure) - though it was probably a good proportion. So they didn't all turn into racists. What did happen is that the nature of the governing elite changed.
P.
Yeah that is very true, I get the impression that the 'good' Suel abandoned the Empire early on but even with some of them you still have some decadent if not down right scary mental illness (Maure).
I am in no way saying that the Suel were being controlled by the spellweavers, I just see the meteoric rise being propelled by the sudden infusion of arcane possibilities brought on by contact with the spellweavers. You basically have the most advanced arcane civilization on Oerth come into contact with a race of beings that has made their entire focus the pursuit of arcane power for untold millenia. And then at some point the spellweavers are simply gone, destoyed by their own experiment except for a few of the more evil ones, including the one that is a lich and turns Kyuss on to some more necromantic insights.
Add to this the spellweavers being known for their tinkering in a civilizations balance of power and it doesn't take a large leap to think the chain reaction started with them. After all in the ecology article it states one of their main goals is finding the pieces of information that will let them temporally push time back 2000 years to the moment before their "grand experiment" caused the destruction of their civilization. Not only would this wipe out anything that has happened in the last 2000 years across the multiverse but it shows how they once had amazingly powerful arcane control of time and space.
I read the Greytalk Q&A with Gary about the Invoked Devastation, he basically said the impression that it was a huge planar gate of hordlings onto the Baklunish Empire was wrong and that it was really a localized time warp, basically all things in the area were aged thousands of years... Which sounds very familiar to what the spellweavers are trying to do to reverse their grand experiment. The spellweavers supplied the Suel with "Oppenheimer's atom bomb knowledge"...the Suel were crazy enough to manufacture and use it during their war with the Baklunish.
I agree that the spellweavers shouldn't be another githyanki or kaorti. Although they are close to the latter. When they did their experiments on cold and necromancy it wasn't because they were "Evil", they did the experiments in order to delve into another path of magic and because they viewed the elves and dwarves involved as little more than cockroaches, I can't think of a better definition of evil. I think many times people look at the Alignment: and then determine motivation, when it should be just the opposite.
As far as the magical machine construction part, many of the spells that are in that Dragon mag article are of that variety. Also the description of spellweaver pyramids make it sound like some sort of dimensional beacon fueled by some sort of arcane furnace. Add to this that there is a huge disconnect between what we know of the Oeridians and what has been written about them makes me wonder. After all, it is hard for me to believe that they were able to have so many artifacts and personalities in such a small amount of historical time. It seems much more likely that Johydee, Leuk-O, Lum, Ehlissa and the rest are simply names that are taken from their old Empire (see the Johydee write up in the LGG deities .pdf) and in some cases myths have replaced the reality of it. I can go on with Egg of Coot and Kwalish etc having machine like ties, but I think you know what I was suggesting, I guess I like the idea that the Oeridians are very different now then when they had an Empire that spanned most of Western Oerik and the magical artifact constructions seem to fit something that is much more ancient then the history we have for the Oeridians right now as well as something that fits into a land far away.
I know that everyone has their own ideas of Greyhawk canon and what seem most plausible, which is even more suspect when you look outside of the Flanaess. But it is fun to talk about.
Since I am running SCAP in Greyhawk, I figure I might as well attempt to make it truly Greyhawk.
I feel the same way as Erik, I didn't like the spellweavers at first, but they have grown on me. It's also nice not having cultists of Tharizdun behind every shadowy plot.
It's also nice not having cultists of Tharizdun behind every shadowy plot.
Unless you decide it was because of him that the Spellweavers' big experiment went very wrong.. :P
I read the Greytalk Q&A with Gary about the Invoked Devastation, he basically said the impression that it was a huge planar gate of hordlings onto the Baklunish Empire was wrong and that it was really a localized time warp, basically all things in the area were aged thousands of years... Which sounds very familiar to what the spellweavers are trying to do to reverse their grand experiment. The spellweavers supplied the Suel with "Oppenheimer's atom bomb knowledge"...the Suel were crazy enough to manufacture and use it during their war with the Baklunish.
Oooh! Yeah, that does sound plausible and the kind of subtle influence I was aiming at. After all, apocalypticly destructive arcane lore doesn't kill empires, empires kill empires. :D
I agree that the spellweavers shouldn't be another githyanki or kaorti. Although they are close to the latter. When they did their experiments on cold and necromancy it wasn't because they were "Evil", they did the experiments in order to delve into another path of magic and because they viewed the elves and dwarves involved as little more than cockroaches, I can't think of a better definition of evil. I think many times people look at the Alignment: and then determine motivation, when it should be just the opposite.
Yep - I'd agree with that sentiment.
BTW - it's very possible that the Spellweaver ethos rubbed off on the Suel - given the latter's experiments with the Derro and the beliefs of the Scarlet Brotherhood....
After all, it is hard for me to believe that they were able to have so many artifacts and personalities in such a small amount of historical time. It seems much more likely that Johydee, Leuk-O, Lum, Ehlissa and the rest are simply names that are taken from their old Empire (see the Johydee write up in the LGG deities .pdf) and in some cases myths have replaced the reality of it.
Well, the article in the LGJ 1 about the Belching Vortex of Leuk-o (located somewhere in the Hestmark Highlands) seemed to strongly suggest that at least some of their archano-tech came from there or other similar extradimensional vortexes that they happened across. The implications is that these alternate dimensions had advanced almost Gamma World levels of tech and that Oerid warlords like Lum and Leuk-o looted these locations and dragged their respective machines back into the Oerth.
BTW - Lum is mentioned in passing to have been present in the eastern Flanaess sometime after the Great Migrations - in Allan Grohe's artifacts article in the LGJ.
I can go on with Egg of Coot and Kwalish etc having machine like ties, but I think you know what I was suggesting, I guess I like the idea that the Oeridians are very different now then when they had an Empire that spanned most of Western Oerik and the magical artifact constructions seem to fit something that is much more ancient then the history we have for the Oeridians right now as well as something that fits into a land far away.
See with the above explanation - you don't need a high tech Oerid empire in the west, if the Machine of Lum the Mad etc were found in the Flanaess. That's not to say the Oerids weren't widespread in the west (they were) or that the might have had some sort of empire. It's possible they did and it was cast down by the Bakluni or the Sufheng or someone else in deepest, deepest antiquity.
Whatever "happened", I agree though - it's fun to speculate and spin webs of conjecture on this stuff!
P.
Yep - I'd agree with that sentiment.
BTW - it's very possible that the Spellweaver ethos rubbed off on the Suel - given the latter's experiments with the Derro and the beliefs of the Scarlet Brotherhood....
P.
Yeah, the Suel for whatever reason seem to get more 'evil' as time goes on. My other bit of speculation that I thought might tie into the area a little bit was that the spellweavers are said to give the Vanishing disease to the gnomes of Jzadirune under Cauldron. But what if these gnomes (who obviously had dealings with the Suel if Cauldron is an ancient Suel outpost) are the same gnomes who created the jermalaine. These gnomes were said to have been exterminated by the Suel because of their creation of jermalaine. So perhaps the Vanishing was simply a disease created by the Suel with help from the spellweavers or simply given to the Suel for other favors. The Vanishing undoubtedly sounds like something that the spellweavers would come up with, but I never really bought the idea that the spellweavers would simply bump off an enclave of gnomes for giggles. I could definitely see the Suel doing it, whether because of the jermlaine or simply because they were not getting a good enough deal with their diamond mine operation in Cauldron.
Cool. I thought they were really neat years ago.
The plot that tied together the two adventure paths seems way more interesting after reading this thread. Maybe in the 3rd adventure path it will be about stopping the spellweavers from erasing history or some other crap.
Someone earlier mentioned that Mind Flayers and Spell Weavers might have some sort of enmity going on relating to their respective empires. For an epic-level continuation of the adventure paths that borrows some characters from both, maybe the spell weavers could return to greyhawk en masse to finally complete what they started and the mind flayers are trying to stop them/hijack their magic, with the pcs caught in the middle trying to save the rest of the world from devastation.
The gnomes of Jzadirune "vanished" like 75 years before the SCAP started- somehow i don't think that the Suel or the Spellweavers were directly involved in getting rid of the Gnomes. Maybe they brought it on themselves by accidentally uncovering some spell weaver magical knowledge and misusing it?
Yes, the hardcover says that Jzadirune discovered a cache of magical stuff left from the spellweavers that had the Vanishing disease. Not sure if this was the case in the original issues of Dungeon or not. Just seemed a little too pat for me considering no other race or area was affected by the Vanishing and this would have occured 1800 years after the spellweavers destruction.
In my own campaign I have Cauldron being an outpost of the Suel before their destruction by the Rain of Colorless Fire. It was my own plot device that perhaps the Suel wanted to get rid of the gnomes at some point which makes more cohesive sense then the background given in the SCAP. After all, I can see the gnomes not wanting to trade with the races of the underdark but the Suel would certainly not let that stop them. Not to mention the gnomes probably found out about the derro at some point as well. Anyway it just presents a reasonable way for there to be an abandoned gnome enclave below Cauldron which is really all you need.
My primary reason for wanting Cauldron to be an ancient Suel undertaking is to give it a realistic reason to be so well developed and large in such a short period (600 years) while existing in the middle of a hell hole like the Amedio and there is the fact that Sasserine really can't be as old as it is stated in the timeline for it to fit in to the history of Greyhawk. (Hold of the Sea Princes not existing until 445 CY [150 years before current year] makes it hard for me to imagine Surabar would come from the area almost 600 years previous to the establishment of that nation of pirates.) Certainly he might come from the prepubescent kingdom of Keoland but that doesn't explain Sasserine at all. Plus this fits with my opinion that Surabar is from Zahind and his eventual move into Cauldron helps the growth of Sasserine as a trading port instead of the other way around.
...although it wouldn't be much of a stretch to say it was founded even earlier, in the days of the Suel Imperium.
Having had a look at the (frighteningly pricy!) SCAP book - I agree - Cauldron is far too developed for where it is - unless it's mining or shipping some sort of valuable minerals, slaves, spices etc (I didn't read that far into the city description - does the city have a major industry to make people want to live in an extinct volcano on the edge of the Amedio?) - and even then it's a bit too nicey and civilised for what is essentially a frontier outpost. I have in mind something a bit more Deadwood/the Serra Pelada open cast gold mine in the Brazilian Amazon.
P.
You might find Samwise's Grand Sheldomar Timeline useful. According to it, there a Firstcomer Suel House founded the nation of Toli, where the Sea Princes are now, before the nation of Keoland even existed.
...although it wouldn't be much of a stretch to say it was founded even earlier, in the days of the Suel Imperium.
Yeah I keep meaning to check that out. I really don't have a problem with Sasserine existing, I just don't think it makes sense for Surabar to come from there. I don't see him being a Suel mage of power or Baklunish (although since he is an elementalist that would make a lot more sense) who was drawn down to the Amedio.
Having had a look at the (frighteningly pricy!) SCAP book - I agree - Cauldron is far too developed for where it is - unless it's mining or shipping some sort of valuable minerals, slaves, spices etc (I didn't read that far into the city description - does the city have a major industry to make people want to live in an extinct volcano on the edge of the Amedio?) - and even then it's a bit too nicey and civilised for what is essentially a frontier outpost. I have in mind something a bit more Deadwood/the Serra Pelada open cast gold mine in the Brazilian Amazon.
Yeah that was my thought as well, it is explained in the background that Surabar (with his elemental earth magic) built both Redgorge and Cauldrons defenses with magic. The gnomes of Jzadirune (who come after Cauldron is founded) help build the city up. The economy is based off of diamond mines and there is also talk of metal workers.
I think more realistically is that Cauldron is an ancient Suel outpost (iron ore, diamonds, definitely slaves) that probably had ties with the underdark races (probably more after they got rid of the gnomes). [The adventure includes koa-toa, minor dueregar, and one major drow and derro NPC.] As far as Cauldron becoming a major metropolis again after Surabar transplants there could be explained by increased trade with Sasserine and also by trade coming in from the south (Zahindi nation of some sort), this would be the primary hub of Zahindi-Flanaess trade which would be incredibly lucrative. Of course in the last 15 or so years you would definitely have a huge problem with the boys in red pajamas, I kinda thought I would use that as reasoning for why some of my PC's are there at all (fleeing the Scarlet Brotherhood). I was thinking the PC's might become embroiled with shutting down the slave trade through Sasserine at some point.
The economy is based off of diamond mines and there is also talk of metal workers.
Leaving aside the issue of diamonds in igneous rock, they'd be a good reason to have a settlement here alright - but I'm thinking something more Sierra Leone than the genteel pseudo-rennaisance of Cauldron. That said - if the mines have been going awhile, the mineowners likely have a cozy little oligarchy going (if no tyrant has managed to monopoise power locally) and might thus have an interest in aggrandising their little settlement and keeping those unruly miner scum in check. But I still see it as being a lot grittier than presented in SCAP.
I think more realistically is that Cauldron is an ancient Suel outpost (iron ore, diamonds, definitely slaves) that probably had ties with the underdark races (probably more after they got rid of the gnomes). [The adventure includes koa-toa, minor dueregar, and one major drow and derro NPC.]
I don't think that's incompatable with it being a diamond mine now - if the seams are rich enough or the Suel had little enough time to exploit it fully.
As far as Cauldron becoming a major metropolis again after Surabar transplants there could be explained by increased trade with Sasserine and also by trade coming in from the south (Zahindi nation of some sort), this would be the primary hub of Zahindi-Flanaess trade which would be incredibly lucrative. Of course in the last 15 or so years you would definitely have a huge problem with the boys in red pajamas, I kinda thought I would use that as reasoning for why some of my PC's are there at all (fleeing the Scarlet Brotherhood). I was thinking the PC's might become embroiled with shutting down the slave trade through Sasserine at some point.
I don't buy Cauldron as a major metropolis. It's a mining town in a volcano stuck at the edge of the Hellfurnaces and the Amedio (and so on no major trade or transport routes). Given it's altitude, it probably doesn't have a terribly sweltering climate, but it will rain buckets there in the wet season (I'm thinking something like the Indian hillstations of Darjeeling or Simla or the wetter places in the Andes). The upper slopes of the volcano will be fertile (volcanic soils) and high enough (therefore reasonably pleasent temps) to provide for agricultural terraces to feed the populace. The lower slopes can provide tropical hardwoods and other jungle produce (see below).
I don't buy a major spice trade route to Zahind either. IIRC, Cauldron was placed somewhere near the southern end of Jeklea Bay. So any land route to Zahind would have to traipse through the jungles of the Amedio - which are not the most hospitable (or conducive to the preservation of dried spices for that matter). Any spice trade there is marginal at best, It might include produce gathered from the local jungles of course but not enough, I think, to base a serious economy on.
Now slaves on the other hand - that's a biggie. Given its size and location, I can see it being a hub and market for slavers rolling south from the Hold in times past (and the Toli lands before then).
Stones, slaves and jungle exotics - that's what Cauldron is built on, I think. Accordingly, I'd make the town a lot nastier and more frontier-like and tailor the trades and industries to cater for both.
So any land route to Zahind would have to traipse through the jungles of the Amedio - which are not the most hospitable (or conducive to the preservation of dried spices for that matter).
They could also go across two mountain ranges and the Sea of Dust. There may be passes, and it'd be better for dried goods, but I think we can all agree that compared to the Sea of Dust the Amedio is a "heavenhole."
A sea route would be preferable, but is there really any place on Oerth where the wilderness is safe from wandering monsters?
I don't buy Cauldron as a major metropolis. It's a mining town in a volcano stuck at the edge of the Hellfurnaces and the Amedio (and so on no major trade or transport routes). Given it's altitude, it probably doesn't have a terribly sweltering climate, but it will rain buckets there in the wet season (I'm thinking something like the Indian hillstations of Darjeeling or Simla or the wetter places in the Andes). The upper slopes of the volcano will be fertile (volcanic soils) and high enough (therefore reasonably pleasent temps) to provide for agricultural terraces to feed the populace. The lower slopes can provide tropical hardwoods and other jungle produce (see below).
Stones, slaves and jungle exotics - that's what Cauldron is built on, I think. Accordingly, I'd make the town a lot nastier and more frontier-like and tailor the trades and industries to cater for both.
The nobles in and around Cauldron are a mixed bag but in the Greyhawk version of Cauldron there would definitely be an aristocrat who has his whole business based around slavery. [This is made more complicated by the fact that Ankhin Taskerhill is the poster child of Olman/Touv racial depictions] Of course if you do this in your version of the SCAP then you have to worry about your PC's becoming more concerned with abolition then with fighting the Cagewrights who are the main bad guys. Ironically their goal is to create a planar portal to Carceri which is basically an entire plane devoted to slavery and prisons. Cauldrons Lord-Mayor Valantru, a magically concealed beholder, would probably make a good primary link to slaving but he certainly wouldn't be alone.
Trade goods: Besides diamonds and possibly iron ore. I would think Coffee would be a huge trade good for Cauldron. The stuff basically loves highly elevated areas with lots of rainfall and I know I have seen canon Greyhawk sources talk about Java as a very rare imported drink, although I don't remember where this was. Any noble relying on coffee as a trade good would be highly likely to support the slave trade as well. Logging, especially with rare hardwoods (Teak, Mahogany) would be a prime source of trade as well. (And of course logging would require lots of low paid miserable workers [slaves].)
Althought not necessarily a major city (the map is just too good not to use!) I think the architectural advancement can be explained a couple of ways. First, if there was as much fraternization between the Suel and spellweavers as we surmise, perhaps the Suel mages (at least initially) tried to hide their association with the spellweavers and built a little necropolis within a days ride from spellweaver central. Realistically the outpost of [Insert Suel/Cauldron name here] was probably a Suel Imperium mining/slaving operation first and spellweaver fraternity second. This would give a realistic expectation that those Suel that lived here would have nice temple buildings and such. Other building could have been added by gnomes and Surabars guild of craftmason guys.
So I am thinking when Surabar (this happens sometime within 10 years of him founding Redgorge) eventually discovered the Suel's outpost all he had to do was clean out the gnome warrens and upper Suel abandoned buildings of evil humanoids, derro, etc. Sasserine at this time is probably a den of slavers and pirates that Cauldron comes to utilize as a trading port and another source of food-stuffs. Slaving probably becomes a problem after Surabar takes the big dirt-nap. His aristocratic house probably becomes more concerned with turning a gold coin then watching over the Demonskar and as Surabar becomes more of a memory they begin to act like the majority of feudal lords (greedy).
A sea route would be preferable, but is there really any place on Oerth where the wilderness is safe from wandering monsters?
If we are going under the assumption that the Suel Imperium encompassed an area much larger than the Sea of Dust at some point then it probably isn't much of a stretch to imagine some Suel probably fled south from the Rain of Colorless Fire. It wouldn't make sense for them to stop in the Amedio (which they did when heading east because of the ocean) but head to civilized lands. So, as long as there is a pass somewhere I guess a trade route could exist. The primary threat in the jungles to the western side of Cauldron would be the Demonskar which was initially held in check by Surabar. Since Redgorge has been around for 700 years perhaps they eventually founded such a trade route, they would almost have had to at some point.
Carceri which is basically an entire plane devoted to slavery and prisons.
If you follow the Planescape material, it's much more devoted to rebels and traitors. It's a prison plane, but there aren't a lot of prisons in it, if you see the distinction. Carceri/Tartarus is on the chaotic side of the Great Ring, so it's neither an orderly place of punishment nor a plane with a permanent slave class. It's a place where chaotic evil slavers might go after they die to spend eternally with chaotic evil rebellious former slaves, all of them endlessly fighting guerilla wars, making alliances against common enemies only to inevitably betray them. If Carceri is a prison, it's one where the prisoners have broken their bonds and are murdering the wardens, which makes the wardens even more determined to recapture them so they don't have to admit to being prisoners themselves.
It wouldn't make sense for them to stop in the Amedio (which they did when heading east because of the ocean) but head to civilized lands.
I think the point of the Great Migrations is that with the fall of the Suel and Baklunish empires there were no civilized lands, so the survivors had to make new ones. While some of the Flan might have considered themselves civilized (and even have been so by objective standards), they weren't recognized by the Suel or Oerids as anything but barbarians.
Trade goods: Besides diamonds and possibly iron ore. I would think Coffee would be a huge trade good for Cauldron. The stuff basically loves highly elevated areas with lots of rainfall and I know I have seen canon Greyhawk sources talk about Java as a very rare imported drink, although I don't remember where this was. Any noble relying on coffee as a trade good would be highly likely to support the slave trade as well. Logging, especially with rare hardwoods (Teak, Mahogany) would be a prime source of trade as well. (And of course logging would require lots of low paid miserable workers [slaves].)
In "A Return to Falcon's Bazaar" by Noel Graham, Dragon 271, May 2000, there is a substance called kaffet that is essentially coffee from the Yatil Mountains and Ket area.
Land routes through the Sea of Dust would be pretty unlikely. The place is a hell hole. Equally land routes along the jungle side are fairly unlikely (it's just horrible terrain to go overland through, unless you have a handy river to follow all the way - which in this case there isn't really).
That said - I do agree that some southern Suel might have escaped and been absorbed into the populace of Zahind...
Land routes through the Sea of Dust would be pretty unlikely. The place is a hell hole. Equally land routes along the jungle side are fairly unlikely (it's just horrible terrain to go overland through, unless you have a handy river to follow all the way - which in this case there isn't really).
That said - I do agree that some southern Suel might have escaped and been absorbed into the populace of Zahind...
Well if we are saying the maps from the SCAP are official canon which is certainly not above argument.... from where Cauldron is south to the other mountain range (I don't know what it is) is primarily jungle, on the other side of that mountain range is Changar (according to Erik's notes from the Sagard books) and just to the west of this is Zahind. I don't think it would be out of the question to have a trade route coming from the south, especially if we still think Surabar is Zahindi or Changani (whatever the Changar people name themselves) assuming that before he discovered Cauldron he would want a trade route that had a mountain pass versus one that obviously doesn't [east through the Hellfurnaces].
The Redgorge map shows a confluence of two rivers where the village is (obviously how it got its name) so I don't think it would be out of line to have a river flowing into the jungles coming from those southern mountains. Which could be a river trade route to Redgorge. So you would have Sasserine to the east (after the move to Cauldron) and some Changar village to the south close to the mountain pass. Neither trade route is going to be a leisurely stroll, to the west you have demons, gnolls, probably yuan-ti and to the east you have dragons, yuan-ti, Olman savages, pirates/SB slavers.
In "A Return to Falcon's Bazaar" by Noel Graham, Dragon 271, May 2000, there is a substance called kaffet that is essentially coffee from the Yatil Mountains and Ket area.
Coffee: I see this as being Baklunish. Tthere's even a port city over there called Kofeh. While that doesn't immediately jive with the high altitude growing conditions for coffee (originally native to the Ethiopian Highlands) - it might be a major clearing house for the beans and it might be where the Flanaessi take their name for it.
More than you ever wanted to know about Coffee:
http://www.coffeeresearch.org/agriculture/environment.htm
So basically Robusta coffee (the cheap stuff) would be grown in the northern climes and closer to sea level and Arabica (the snobby Starbucks coffee) could be from the southern climbs, up in the mountains, in incredibly dangerous and hard to reach areas of Oerik. I could also see some form of tea leaf being imported from Changar/Zahind like Chai or Cha black leaf tea.
Well if we are saying the maps from the SCAP are official canon which is certainly not above argument.... from where Cauldron is south to the other mountain range (I don't know what it is) is primarily jungle, on the other side of that mountain range is Changar (according to Erik's notes from the Sagard books) and just to the west of this is Zahind.
Eh? If you look at the Dungeon Greyhawk map, it places Sasserine and Cauldron right at the southern end of Jeklea Bay, on a spur of the Hellfurnaces (well I'm assuming that's what they are as I can't find where I buried the full size ones and I'm squinting at a couple of dots on the Map wall paper at Paizo.com - but that's where I seem to remember them being). To the south lies the expanse of the Amedio. Across the Hellfurnaces to the west lies the Sea of Dust.
That's a long way north and east of Changar. Xamaclan now - on the other hand - has contacts with the people across the mountains according to tSB - which means Changar.
P.
In my defence if you look at the maps for the surroundings of Cauldron it places Redgorge to the west of (what looks like) a range of mountains (I assumed Hellfurnaces) when in reality it is just a spur of the Hellfurnaces.
For some reason I was thinking that Cauldron was much further south, probably because of the map in the SCAP Hardcover. And I was thinking the Sea of Dust wasn't as large as it is.
You know what they say about assumptions....
As far as the Dungeon map goes I would say that isn't accurate either (as far as the exact position of Cauldron and Sasserine) according to that Sasserine is only 15 miles due north of Cauldron when it should be much further and probably more to the northwest. (The Lucky Monkey Inn is described as being between Cauldron and Sasserine and it is much further than 15 miles from Cauldron and further west than north.)
Considering my new global (Oerthian) perspective, I renounce all ties to Zahind that I was thinking of before. It simply doesn't make sense, although I maintain my dislike for the surname "Spellmason". And I still would love to get my PC's to venture down to Zahind at some point!
Also looking again at the entry for Cauldron (it is a small city currently) SCAP describes it as relying heavily on the mining of diamonds and obsidian as well as having surrounding plantations of sugarcane and coffee. So that bit probably stuck in my brain matter till I posted it.
I think I will still go with Cauldron as a former Suloise colony that died out at some point after the Rain of Colorless Fire and was resettled again around the time of Surabar. Although depending on the timeline it might make more sense for it to simply be a 'left over' from the Suel Imperium that has gained new life since the establishment of Sasserine and increasing trade with the Sea Princes since the early 400's CY.
Also looking again at the entry for Cauldron (it is a small city currently) SCAP describes it as relying heavily on the mining of diamonds and obsidian as well as having surrounding plantations of sugarcane and coffee. So that bit probably stuck in my brain matter till I posted it.
I think I will still go with Cauldron as a former Suloise colony that died out at some point after the Rain of Colorless Fire and was resettled again around the time of Surabar. Although depending on the timeline it might make more sense for it to simply be a 'left over' from the Suel Imperium that has gained new life since the establishment of Sasserine and increasing trade with the Sea Princes since the early 400's CY.
That's interesting about the resources. So there's coffee in the Amedio, eh? Duely noted...
We had sugarcane in LG Onnwal - so that's not too much of a surprise.
Surabar might be a Zahindi wanderer or not, depending on your preference (and his background).
As for whether the colony died out or not - I wouldn't see why it'd have to have died out totally. It could have dwindled in numbers (which I imagine weren;t that great to begin with - unless it got an influx of refugees after the RoCF) and then, as you say, revived its fortunes under Surabar. I kind of like the idea of a dynamic mage type arriving among a dwindling population of half-crazy inbred Suel with a vision of the future.
Given it's location - I agree that Sasserine wouldn't have been associated with Berghof. If it was founded around the time of the rise of the Sea Princes, it could well have been a new foundation based on shipping slaves from Cauldron to Port Toli. Alternatively (if you need an older foundation date), it might have been a refuge for Toli pirates fleeing the Keoish centuries eariler or even a Firstcomer foundation (or all three - a Firstcomer foundation, settled by a wave of fleeing Toli pirates and then revitalised by the slave trade of the Sea Princes).
P.