Do people truly feel that 3.5 psionics are balanced? I for one feel that they are the most part, but think that its broken in some areas. Powers without capped damage limits is one of my main concerns. How is that really balanced compared to magic? Yes, the character has to pay for it and it doesn't auto scale like a spellcaster, but does having no max bring that into balance? I have other minor concerns but will save those for later.
Thoughts?
I know this is more of a psionics board topic but its been talked to death over there and think they're a little biased. I wanted to ask the DS community's thoughts.
Do people truly feel that 3.5 psionics are balanced? I for one feel that they are the most part, but think that its broken in some areas. Powers without capped damage limits is one of my main concerns. How is that really balanced compared to magic? Yes, the character has to pay for it and it doesn't auto scale like a spellcaster, but does having no max bring that into balance? I have other minor concerns but will save those for later.
Thoughts?
I think that WotC's view is that the psionics having uncapped damage limits is balanced by not having as many powers. Psionics are supposed to be more flexible than magic, but not as diversified.
However, it is the uncapped aspect of psionics which is why I wanted Advanced Beings to be able to tap into that, and make their magic have a similar effect -- by spending power points when casting the spell in order to make it a combination of magic and psionics -- use psionics to augment magic, as it were. We could even use the spell point system from Unearthed Arcana as a basis for how many power points would be needed to augment magic in that fashion.
I think that WotC's view is that the psionics having uncapped damage limits is balanced by not having as many powers. Psionics are supposed to be more flexible than magic, but not as diversified.
I agree that psionics are and should be flexible, but how does not having a max on damaging powers flexible? A manifester can either choose to scale back on the power points they spend on a power in order to pace themselves throughout an adventuring day. A spellcaster can not.
Example, a 6th level psion could choose to either augment energy ray to do anywhere from 1d6 to 6d6 in a energy type of their choice depending on the foe. A wizard of the same level can't decided to scale back on magic missile in order to use those missiles later that day and can only produce a force effect. Thats flexibility. Uncapped power limits does not equal flexibility IMO. It leads to unbalance.
I still think a few things can be added to psionics to tweak the system a bit more, but for the most part I am happy with what XPH did. I still want a psionic feat and skill system though, which I will probably eventually switch to depending on what base system I end up using.
As far as Xlorep's idea of combining PP with magic to boost it, I am all for it and was dissappointed not to see it in the dragon rules and think it should be added. It's not unbalancing and is exactly the image I get of dragons and avangions from the old 2e Dragon Kings accessory.
Yeah, I don't think 3.5 psionics is broken, and think it's pretty balanced compared to 3.0 psionics which were underpowered comparitvely to magic.
Agreed.
I still think a few things can be added to psionics to tweak the system a bit more, but for the most part I am happy with what XPH did. I still want a psionic feat and skill system though, which I will probably eventually switch to depending on what base system I end up using.
I love what the XPH did for psionics and feel its a great mechanic/system. I just think they went a little over board with some things like the no max on damaging powers (yeah, I'm stuck on that :P ), and some of the scaling of the save DCs. If they were to errata anything I'd hope it would be the energy powers and some of the other damage dealing ones.
As far as Xlorep's idea of combining PP with magic to boost it, I am all for it and was dissappointed not to see it in the dragon rules and think it should be added. It's not unbalancing and is exactly the image I get of dragons and avangions from the old 2e Dragon Kings accessory
I think that would be a great "epic" level ability, for both magic and psionics in order to exceed previous damage limits. Another ability could be that ABs could sacrifice spell slots in order to "auto scale" powers.
I love what the XPH did for psionics and feel its a great mechanic/system. I just think they went a little over board with some things like the no max on damaging powers (yeah, I'm stuck on that :P ), and some of the scaling of the save DCs. If they were to errata anything I'd hope it would be the energy powers and some of the other damage dealing ones.
Don't forget that there is a max -- the amount of power points a person can use during manifesting a power -- so we're not talking about someone who can funnel all of their points in one power, there is an upper limit. It's just the limit changes every level. I think it's less that Psionics have an unfair advantage, as I think magic kinda sucks because of the cap. :P I know, it's a perception thing there.
I think that would be a great "epic" level ability, for both magic and psionics in order to exceed previous damage limits. Another ability could be that ABs could sacrifice spell slots in order to "auto scale" powers.
Yea, I was attempting to find ways to "blur the line" so to speak between magic and psionics for Advanced Beings. With a focus on that psionics are being used to enhance magic, but the reverse should also be true. That's where I saw seeing things like combining the two to overcome resistances (a creature with SR but no PR would find themselves unable to resist an Advanced Being's spell when used as a psionic enchantment), magic could boost/enhance psionics, while psionics could augment magic; metamagic could be used for psionics & metapsionics could be used for magic, and so forth. Make the line that is drawn between the two more or less disappear with Advanced Beings -- giving them a unique advantage over/difference from other Epic characters. I was thinking about how to use it for Epic spells & powers -- but it's just not really a feasable or functionable thing; Epic Spellcasting & Epic Manifesting are the same thing mechanically, and there really is no way to have one "improve" the other when they use the exact same rules in that fashion.
I'm still planning on writing up my Psionic Enchantments and putting them on my site when I have a free moment to do so -- because I think they should be something cool. After all, the 2E Psionic Enchantments were what are now known as Epic Spells. I wanted something that could take the place of the Epic Spells, something that would be a unique facet of all Advanced Beings (all of them share this ability), something that is not restricted to any one kind of Advanced Being (but you really do need to be an Advanced Being to tap into it).
Don't forget that there is a max -- the amount of power points a person can use during manifesting a power -- so we're not talking about someone who can funnel all of their points in one power, there is an upper limit. It's just the limit changes every level. I think it's less that Psionics have an unfair advantage, as I think magic kinda sucks because of the cap. :P I know, it's a perception thing there.
I understand the max power points being spent not exceeding manifester level. The unbalance doesn't really start till after 10th level where the manifester can exceed the usual 10 damage die max with almost all damage based powers where a wizard has a handful (at least in a SRD stand point).
I understand the max power points being spent not exceeding manifester level. The unbalance doesn't really start till after 10th level where the manifester can exceed the usual 10 damage die max with almost all damage based powers where a wizard has a handful (at least in a SRD stand point).
That's because the D&D forget and fire magic system that they will never get rid of, for whatever stupid reason, SUCKS!!!! ;)
Going to have to agree with Xlorep here, it's a perception thing, and to me the magic system could learn a thing or two from Bruce Cordell and the rest of the XPH team.
All the more reason to switch to Black Company's magic system or find another one out there that is better than the old forget and fire system that needs to die and go away forever.
No other RPG that I have played has this stupid system when it comes to magic. One of the main reasons why I am so anti-magic when it comes to D&D.
That's because the D&D forget and fire magic system that they will never get rid of, for whatever stupid reason, SUCKS!!!! ;)
I don't necessarily think that system blows, more that it needs to be updated. Especially the
set spell DC saves.
I understand the max power points being spent not exceeding manifester level. The unbalance doesn't really start till after 10th level where the manifester can exceed the usual 10 damage die max with almost all damage based powers where a wizard has a handful (at least in a SRD stand point).
Don't forget that when manifesters do that, they sacrifice being able to manifest more powers that day. There is a compromize/balance that takes place. Plus, they have to spend more power points to do such things to begin with, while with the magic system, a 3rd level spell always costs a 3rd level slot (without using metamagic feats, that is). A 3rd level power does not always cost 7 power points -- that's just the base points, then you spend more points to increase that power's abilities (augment it) -- soon it becomes like a 4th level power, 5th level power, etc. Rather than having separate powers defined for each level, they use augmentation to have a single power be able to count for what 5 or 6 spells in the magic system does. That's where the flexibility comes into play.
Look at it this way.... if a wizard casts a fireball, he gets 1d6, 2d6, 3d6, up to 10d6 all for the cost of a 3rd level spell slot. If there was (I don't know of any off-hand) a psionic power that also was 3rd level, and had the same damage effects, then it would cost a base of 7 points for 3d6 damage. Then if it cost, let's say 2 points more to augment the damage and increase it by 1d6. So, a 10d6 psionic power like this, would cost 21 power points: that would come to roughly the equivalent of an 11th level spell -- that's pretty darned expensive, don't you think? Who's getting the raw deal here -- the Wizard who pays for a 3rd level slot, or the Psion who ends up paying the equivalent of an 11th-level slot? Or in manifesting terms, the Psion who pays 21 power points, or the Wizard who pays the equivalent of 7 power points?
I don't necessarily think that system blows, more that it needs to be updated. Especially the
set spell DC saves.
That would at least help. Especially in Epic levels when you need to basically **** through every d20 book out there just to be able to have a chance to keep up with an Epic monster's saves and SR with comparitive CRs.
Don't forget that when manifesters do that, they sacrifice being able to manifest more powers that day. There is a compromize/balance that takes place. Plus, they have to spend more power points to do such things to begin with, while with the magic system, a 3rd level spell always costs a 3rd level slot (without using metamagic feats, that is). A 3rd level power does not always cost 7 power points -- that's just the base points, then you spend more points to increase that power's abilities (augment it) -- soon it becomes like a 4th level power, 5th level power, etc. Rather than having separate powers defined for each level, they use augmentation to have a single power be able to count for what 5 or 6 spells in the magic system does. That's where the flexibility comes into play.?
I understand all that. I'm no stranger to psionic mechanics. :P
Look at it this way.... if a wizard casts a fireball, he gets 1d6, 2d6, 3d6, up to 10d6 all for the cost of a 3rd level spell slot. If there was (I don't know of any off-hand) a psionic power that also was 3rd level, and had the same damage effects, then it would cost a base of 7 points for 3d6 damage. Then if it cost, let's say 2 points more to augment the damage and increase it by 1d6. So, a 10d6 psionic power like this, would cost 21 power points: that would come to roughly the equivalent of an 11th level spell -- that's pretty darned expensive, don't you think? Who's getting the raw deal here -- the Wizard who pays for a 3rd level slot, or the Psion who ends up paying the equivalent of an 11th-level slot?
The other way you have to look at is that that same wizard can't use that same 10d6 fireball and divide it into five 2d6 fireballs or two 5d6 or whatever way you want to split it. Thats what makes psionics flexible. A wizard can't decide to sacrifice a higher level spell in order to increase the damage of a lower level one. Yes, there are metamagic feats that let you sort of do that, but psionics have that same option.
Inceased power point costs do keep that in balance but saying that the psion had to spend huge amounts in order to do insane amounts of damage isn't a very good argument. If spellcasters had the option to scale spells beyond the scope of die limitations don't you think they would make that same sacrifice? I know that I'd forgo memorizing several low level spells in order to increase my fireball from 10d6 to 15d6 if I had that choice as a spellcaster.
I agree that psionics are and should be flexible, but how does not having a max on damaging powers flexible? A manifester can either choose to scale back on the power points they spend on a power in order to pace themselves throughout an adventuring day. A spellcaster can not.
Example, a 6th level psion could choose to either augment energy ray to do anywhere from 1d6 to 6d6 in a energy type of their choice depending on the foe. A wizard of the same level can't decided to scale back on magic missile in order to use those missiles later that day and can only produce a force effect. Thats flexibility. Uncapped power limits does not equal flexibility IMO. It leads to unbalance.
I think they are perfectly well balanced. I used to think that psionics was overpowered, but have changed my mind on further inspection.
If you convert a wizards spell slots into spell points you find that a psion has approximately the same number of power points as a wizard would have spell points.
At level 20 a psion has @ base 343 power points per day.
A non-specialist wizard has 4 spell slots per level. If we ignore 0-level this adds up as follows when converted into spell points:
(1+3+5+7+9+11+13+15+17)4= 324 spell points. Only 19 points less than a psion.
If we assume an intelligence of 20 for both than the bonus power points at level 20 work out to 50 and the bonus spell points work out to (1+1+3+5+7+9)= 26, about half as many.
So now in total we are sitting @
Psion: 393
Wizard: 350
a discrepency of 43 points.
However you must consider that every psion is essential forced to specialize (Having a discipline is a little bit different, but about equivilent). If we take this into account we find that the spell--->power point gap closes and even reverses. +81 points for wizard, but since those extra points can onlt be used on specialist spells maybe they are only worth about half as much, like 43 points.
Suddenly spell points and power points are tied.
Now here comes the trade-off.
Psions have complete freedom to manifest whatever powers they want to without regard to a slot system, but in return they have to spend extra power points on their powers to get any benefit out of their manifester levels with them (other than duration and range). So while a psion and wizard essential have the same number of points a wizards points invested in lower level spells increase in value as he goes up in levels, while a psion must spend more points to get the same benefit.
Now as to their powers being upgradable to the effectiveness of higher level powers. This is sort of true and sort of not true. They are upgradable beyond what a spell cast @ an equivilent caster level would be in many cases, but they don't actually stack up to the same power as an actual spell/power of that level would. Some powers augment better than others, but I would estimate that most augment fairly well augment @ the equivilent of 1/2 the rate as actually using a higher level power.
So you could spend 9 points on activating a 5th level power, or 9 points on activating a 1st level power augmented to be approximately as a powerful as a 3rd level power.
This all really just acts as balance between the Wizards infinate capacity for spell known and the Psions very limited power selection. Since a psion can't learn anywhere near as many powers as a wizard can spells, the ones he does learn need to remain relavant options @ higher levels. So esstentially, since a psion can spend his power points however he chooses to. He ends up having to pay more for an equivilent effect much of the time. This means that a psion can be very powerful and effectively burn through his power points in the short run, but doesn't have the staying power of a wizard, or even the same versitility in the long run.
That all being said. The nature of the Darksun campaign setting does make psionics powerful in comparison to magic because of RP considerations. Why would anyone pursue so dangerous an occupation as a wizard if arcane magic wasn't better than psionics in some meaningful way? Defiler feats help to make up in the discrepancy of danger and revilment between being a defiler vs. a preserver, but they don't account for the discrepancy between wizards and psions. That's why I use my alternate "Arcane Magic is Better Than Psionics" rule. Magic Resistance, Detect Magic, Dispel Magic, Canceling spell effects (like Darkness vs. Light) etc. provided through arcane spells/effects are all effective against psionic manifestations. But it only goes one way. Power Resistance, Detect Psionics, Dispel Psionics, and Canceling power effect don't work against magic.
I like the idea it makes it a real reason to be a mage when everyone wants to kill you on sight my group is wondering why anyone would play a wiz in a world of low magic with low spell availability, low magic item availability and having to be careful of even he lowliest commoner even suspecting you of practicing arcane magic.
This gives a real reason to take on the danger of a nearly suicidal decision.
That being said I don't think magic is balenced either. I have whole issues with certain spells (most of which deal no damage). The whole Shapechange series of spells from Alter Self, Polymorph through to Shapechange is broken as heck. To many spells duplicate other classes abilities to easily (Divine Power) and don't get me started on wildshape.
Psionists although different are basically a varient Sorceror and alot of their powers duplicate wizard spells. The most powerful classes IMHO are Druid, Cleric,Wizard, Psion in no particular order depending on what splatbooks are used. Rather than magic vs psionics its magic+psionics>everything else.
Rather than magic vs psionics its magic+psionics>everything else.
Bear in mind that everything else can multiclass much more easily than magic or psionics. A spellcaster or manifester who starts taking levels in a class that doesn't increase hi existing class' spellcaster or manifester levels (respectively) begins to cripple himself -- and it becomes exponentially more pronounced the higher the level the character is.
Big deal that spells and powers mimic other class abilities this isn't eq or wow we aren't staticly bound to a specific role that we need specific abillities we need to pull off nor are our abilities the only thing that make us wanted or viable in a group. everyone wants a cleric and a figther duh! but beyond that it doesn't matter i have had very susessful groups of all figthers, mostly rouges, and caster heavy too. so what does it matter is psions/wizards have powers that duplicate other abilities of other classes it don't make them over powered or unblanced it just gives an alternative to having to have those classes.
Bear in mind that everything else can multiclass much more easily than magic or psionics. A spellcaster or manifester who starts taking levels in a class that doesn't increase hi existing class' spellcaster or manifester levels (respectively) begins to cripple himself -- and it becomes exponentially more pronounced the higher the level the character is.
Being able to multiclass doesn't really fix some of the stupidity of magic/psionics though. Some classes can just about do it all. Some other classes in the core rules just about have to multiclass (Fighter) to be effective at higher levels. The primary spellcaster classes (including Psion) are quite happy to stay single classes.Any class with level 1-9 powers/spells is abusable even the humble Warmage.
Theres `11 core classes and for arguements sake treat the Psion as a Cleric/Druid/Wizard/Sorceror.
Barbarian. Good multiclass option. Miss out on high level Barbarian abilities though.
Bard. Bard multiclass option unless you only multiclass a 1-2 levels.
Cleric. Happy to stay single classed or any PrC with ful spellcasting.
Druid. Virtually no reason to muticlass. Complete package really.
Fighter. Just about mandatory multiclassing in core rules. High level fighters are a joke compared to everything else.
Monk. Usually has to stay single classes due to alignment and built in restrictions on multiclassing.
Paladin. Tends to stay single classed.
Ranger. Sometimmes multiclassed but once again better single classed.
Rogue. Often multiclassed
Sorceror. Single classed character. If PrCs are used loses virtually nothing by taking any full spellcaster PrC.
Wizard. See sorceror.
Only Fighter/Rogues/Barbarians tend to be multiclassed that much. Each other class has to lose high level abilities and are usually happy to stay single classed . Only the fighter has no high level ability as his bonus feats can also be take at lower levels. Bonus fighter feat at or improved evasion, level 6+ spells etc. Being abloe to multiclass isn't really that good. I don't really count PrCs as multiclass as they often improve already existing abilities.
i don't allow spalt books they always throw balance out the window along with the kitchen sink.
I only allow a specific list of materials into my campaigns -- I usually avoid splat books for the same reason you do. This was one of the major prompts I had for building a consolidated single-book compilation of all my Dark Sun materials -- so then I can allow it, and nothing else. I've gotten kinda sick of players who say "I'll make a character for your campaign" only to have dug up 3+ splat books I've never even heard of before to create a character that 1) doesn't belong in the setting, 2) is overpowered, and 3) I had no part in helping mold the character at all. Then the player gets upset when I disallow this abomination of their creation from my campaign.
Big deal that spells and powers mimic other class abilities this isn't eq or wow we aren't staticly bound to a specific role that we need specific abillities we need to pull off nor are our abilities the only thing that make us wanted or viable in a group. everyone wants a cleric and a figther duh! but beyond that it doesn't matter i have had very susessful groups of all figthers, mostly rouges, and caster heavy too. so what does it matter is psions/wizards have powers that duplicate other abilities of other classes it don't make them over powered or unblanced it just gives an alternative to having to have those classes.
Honestly, I like the balance that D&D has to offer in many respects. I also don't care about that classes can mirror each other a bit; hell.... I've been working over the classes for some time now for my Dark Sun campaigns, do make them "fit" better with my view of what Dark Sun should be. I do like to pay attention to balance and not just toss it casually aside for my campaigns, but at the same time, rather than saying "it's too hard to balance , I try to figure out how to accomplish the task. But, that's neither here nor there. Psionics in my view aren't unbalanced from Magic. Psionics and Magic appear unbalancing to everything else, but in my experience it all seems to work together nicely, more or less.
I don't think Psionics is balenced. One drawback I have seen mentioned is Psionists have to spend more PPs to power their spells which is largely a non issue except in the most intense hack and slash games or encounters. Basically they shouldn't run out of PPs that often except in the low levels, Spellcasters don't tend to run out spells once they reach a certain level and NPCs psionists in a combat situation should be quite happy to blow or their PPs as the fight will only probably last 5 rounds (if that).
As the Psionics board regulars have told everyone over and over - D&D is based on a 4 encounters per day setup. If you don't use this, psions (especially) and casters in general will be much more powerful. In my last campaign where I was a player, our DM rarely had us face more than 1 or maybe 2 encounters a day, and they were usually of the one big bad-ass type (or BBEG as I've learned that the lingo is...). In addition, we usually had time to buff. Surprise surprise, my cleric ruled combat at higher levels. Psionics will do the same thing.
While I haven't played much with psionics yet, it seems to me one of the biggest general imbalances with the system stems from the energy powers. Choosing an energy type on the fly seems incredibly powerful - not only do you basically ignore energy resistances/immunities, you can tailor the powers according to your opponent (don't want Reflex saves against a high-level rogue? No problem!), and even deal more damage. The wizard's increase in choices from more spells does NOT weigh up for this - he has to take his chances when he memorizes each day.
How can this be balanced? Anyone else think this seems unbalanced?
Other than that, psionics seems like a very good system to me - there are a few powers which seem too much (like Energy Missile and Temporal Acceleration), but that can be said for magic as well.
Using the Psionics is different rule makes them even more overpowered.
How so? Granted, in a regular campaign I can see this happening, but on Athas, using the "psionics is different" alternative should give magic the edge, as creatures are more likely to have power resistence, anti-psionics will be more wide-spread and so forth.
Honestly, I like the balance that D&D has to offer in many respects. I also don't care about that classes can mirror each other a bit; hell.... I've been working over the classes for some time now for my Dark Sun campaigns, do make them "fit" better with my view of what Dark Sun should be. I do like to pay attention to balance and not just toss it casually aside for my campaigns, but at the same time, rather than saying "it's too hard to balance , I try to figure out how to accomplish the task. But, that's neither here nor there. Psionics in my view aren't unbalanced from Magic. Psionics and Magic appear unbalancing to everything else, but in my experience it all seems to work together nicely, more or less.
Are you aware of the worst abuses from the PHB?
1. Druid wildshapes into an animal. Due to 3.5 polymorph rules he now has the animal subtype. Druid casts a maximised and/or empowered Awaken spell on himself and gains +3 or 4 charisma, 18-27 Intelligence and 18-27 Wisdom.
2. Wizard/Sorc/Druid casts Shapechange and turns into a Balor. Creates a vorpal sword. Creates another vorpal sword, creates another vorpal sword etc etc etc...... Try Efreets and Barghests as well not to mention numerous creatures from MM2, MM3, Fiend Folio etc.
3.. Wizard/Sorc cast planeshift after the cleric casts death ward on him. Goes to the negative energy plane and casts gate which brings target creature to the negative energy pane. Costs caster 1000xp which he will probably get back by deafeting the creature.,
4. Timestop abuse. Forcecage+acid fog/delayed blast fireball, prismatic wall, etc. Or timestop+timestop+timestop etc.
5. Polymorph the Fighter into a Troll/War Troll/Firbolg. Gets better with every new book with creatures in it.
6. Planeshift/Gate to another plane probably a celestial one) and cast Astral Projection and return to the prime. Basically you never die unless the DM uses the Githyanki.
7. Magic Jar into a fighter/giants body, cut finger off and cast the clone spell.
8. Mordenkainens Disjunction on a character with a low will save- ie high level fighter. Odds are you've just destroyed several hundred thousand gp worth of equipment.
9. Divine Power+Righteous Might+Divine Favor. Not exactly broken but fighter BAB, size increase, +14 strength, bonus hp +1-6 to hit and damage.....
10. Wall of Iron + Fabricate.
These are some of the more blatant abuses of the PHB. There are others. Magic isn't just overpowered but completely over the top stupidly broken. Similar Psionic tricks turn op on the character optimisation boards.
but the main issue is not one of balance so much as the fact that it is made almost identical to magic instead of its own systems. but that is my personal opinion.
As the Psionics board regulars have told everyone over and over - D&D is based on a 4 encounters per day setup. If you don't use this, psions (especially) and casters in general will be much more powerful. In my last campaign where I was a player, our DM rarely had us face more than 1 or maybe 2 encounters a day, and they were usually of the one big bad-ass type (or BBEG as I've learned that the lingo is...). In addition, we usually had time to buff. Surprise surprise, my cleric ruled combat at higher levels. Psionics will do the same thing.
While I haven't played much with psionics yet, it seems to me one of the biggest general imbalances with the system stems from the energy powers. Choosing an energy type on the fly seems incredibly powerful - not only do you basically ignore energy resistances/immunities, you can tailor the powers according to your opponent (don't want Reflex saves against a high-level rogue? No problem!), and even deal more damage. The wizard's increase in choices from more spells does NOT weigh up for this - he has to take his chances when he memorizes each day.
How can this be balanced? Anyone else think this seems unbalanced?
Other than that, psionics seems like a very good system to me - there are a few powers which seem too much (like Energy Missile and Temporal Acceleration), but that can be said for magic as well.
How so? Granted, in a regular campaign I can see this happening, but on Athas, using the "psionics is different" alternative should give magic the edge, as creatures are more likely to have power resistence, anti-psionics will be more wide-spread and so forth.
In a normal campaign the Psionics is different rule is overpowered. Even in Darksun how many critters have power resistence? Just because the assumption is 4 encounters per day doesn't mean there will be. Often theres only 1-2 unless you're doing a dungeon hack.
1. Druid wildshapes into an animal. Due to 3.5 polymorph rules he now has the animal subtype. Druid casts a maximised and/or empowered Awaken spell on himself and gains +3 or 4 charisma, 18-27 Intelligence and 18-27 Wisdom.
You can't Awaken a creature that has higher than animal intelligence, even if it has the animal type. That includes a PC.
2. Wizard/Sorc/Druid casts Shapechange and turns into a Balor. Creates a vorpal sword. Creates another vorpal sword, creates another vorpal sword etc etc etc...... Try Efreets and Barghests as well not to mention numerous creatures from MM2, MM3, Fiend Folio etc.
You gain abilities of the creature, not its feats or skills.
You do get racial skill bonuses.
Polymorphing or shapechanging into a creature does not give you its equipment.
3. Wizard/Sorc cast planeshift after the cleric casts death ward on him. Goes to the negative energy plane and casts gate which brings target creature to the negative energy pane. Costs caster 1000xp which he will probably get back by deafeting the creature.
This is situational, not a direct element found within the rules. Its not a rule. For example, I never thought of doing that...so its not even clear the masses who play D&D will actually attempt it, or realise they could try. I didn't.
4. Timestop abuse. Forcecage+acid fog/delayed blast fireball, prismatic wall, etc. Or timestop+timestop+timestop etc.
AFAIK Timestop cannot be cast within the radius of Timestop. You have to wait for one Timestop spell to end for the other Timestop spell you've cast to have any effect.
5. Polymorph the Fighter into a Troll/War Troll/Firbolg. Gets better with every new book with creatures in it.
There's nothing wrong with being smart in your choice of monsters.
6. Planeshift/Gate to another plane probably a celestial one) and cast Astral Projection and return to the prime. Basically you never die unless the DM uses the Githyanki.
AFAIK you are not an outerplanar native but a prime, so that scheme does not work.
7. Magic Jar into a fighter/giants body, cut finger off and cast the clone spell.
A DM who even allows a player to mention he will attempt this should strike the PC with a Feeblemind spell. This is stupid powergaming and abuse.
8. Mordenkainens Disjunction on a character with a low will save- ie high level fighter. Odds are you've just destroyed several hundred thousand gp worth of equipment.
Perfectly legal and normal. Powerful and wise NPCs, or players with high-level PCs, often will choose to boost themselves in permanent fashions instead of using items or spells, that way powerful dispel attempts - even epic - cannot rob them of their advantages.
9. Divine Power+Righteous Might+Divine Favor. Not exactly broken but fighter BAB, size increase, +14 strength, bonus hp +1-6 to hit and damage.....
Such a combo might actually be too good for the cleric, already the best class in the book. This might be your one good example out of the ten.
10. Wall of Iron + Fabricate.
When the Wall of Iron duration expires, so does the object constructed from its smelting. A DM can even argue that iron seperated from the wall ceases to exist; after all, the wall itself ceases to exist after the spell is over.
Sage do you have more of a written down rules thing on "magic is better" or do you just kind of wing it and judgment call all of it?
I like the idea it makes it a real reason to be a mage when everyone wants to kill you on sight my group is wondering why anyone would play a wiz in a world of low magic with low spell availability, low magic item availability and having to be careful of even he lowliest commoner even suspecting you of practicing arcane magic.
This gives a real reason to take on the danger of a nearly suicidal decision.
I could write up a more detailed version, but yah I just arbittrate generally. Just use the psionics and magic are different rules with the following exceptions for spells cast by arcane spellcasters.
1. Dispel Magic can dispel psionics.
2. Detect Magic can detect psionics. When you cast the spell, you identify the presense and number/strength of the auras in range as per the 1st two rounds of the power's description (p. 91 XPH). You must still make a psicraft to identify the discipline being used at the appropriate DC, as described in under the heading 3rd round.
3. When a manifester attempts to use a power on a target, they must overcome the higher of its spell resistance and power resistance as long as the spell resistance was the result of an arcane spell or of an "arcane origin".
So for instance, an Antimagic Field spell cast be a wizard would have the same effect on spells as psionics. But one cast by a cleric or druid wouldn't.
4. If a spell cast by a wizard says that it "counters or dispels any _______- spell of equal level or lower", or anything very similar, then you can intrepret it to say "counters or dispel any ______-spell or 'equivilent power' of equal level or lower".
5. Counterspelling can be used against psionic manifestations. Count the manifestatoin of a power as though it were a spell of an appropriate school.
There are no absolute guidelines for determining, but here are the most likey school for a power to count as based on discipline.
Telepathy-->Enchantment [Mind-Affecting], Abjuration, Divination
Psychokinesis-->Evocation, Abjuration
Clairsentience-->Divination, Necromancy, Abjuration
Psychometabolism-->Transmutation, Necromancy
Psychoportation-->Conjuration (summoning)
Metacreation-->Conjuration (creation)
[ :D Notice how Abjuration and Divination appear in multiple spot. This matches up with the focus of Path Dexter (as per the feat in DS 3.5). Similarly Conjuration and Necromancy appear in multiple spots. This matches up with the focus of Path Sinister]
While I haven't played much with psionics yet, it seems to me one of the biggest general imbalances with the system stems from the energy powers. Choosing an energy type on the fly seems incredibly powerful - not only do you basically ignore energy resistances/immunities, you can tailor the powers according to your opponent (don't want Reflex saves against a high-level rogue? No problem!), and even deal more damage. The wizard's increase in choices from more spells does NOT weigh up for this - he has to take his chances when he memorizes each day.
I do agree that their are some 'powers' that are too powerful. That feature of the energy powers really bother me, so I house ruled that you have to choose which version of the power you are taking when you select it. But that you can take it multiple times to gain the different energy types. So if you realy want to blow the powers to gain a full range of energy types you can, but the only psions who will generally bother with this sort of thing are Kineticists. And either way you have to pay for it. Telepaths end up being the most powerful of psions in many ways, but they should also be the most revieled and hated thus having similar, but different RP concerns.
Are you aware of the worst abuses from the PHB?
1. Druid wildshapes into an animal. Due to 3.5 polymorph rules he now has the animal subtype. Druid casts a maximised and/or empowered Awaken spell on himself and gains +3 or 4 charisma, 18-27 Intelligence and 18-27 Wisdom.
Last I checked, you can't cast spells in the wildshape form. I could be mistaken, however.
2. Wizard/Sorc/Druid casts Shapechange and turns into a Balor. Creates a vorpal sword. Creates another vorpal sword, creates another vorpal sword etc etc etc...... Try Efreets and Barghests as well not to mention numerous creatures from MM2, MM3, Fiend Folio etc.
And without the multiweapon fighting feat this does exactly.....? You don't gain any of the abilities of the creature, I thought. Just their physical qualities.
3.. Wizard/Sorc cast planeshift after the cleric casts death ward on him. Goes to the negative energy plane and casts gate which brings target creature to the negative energy pane. Costs caster 1000xp which he will probably get back by deafeting the creature.,
I don't follow.
4. Timestop abuse. Forcecage+acid fog/delayed blast fireball, prismatic wall, etc. Or timestop+timestop+timestop etc.
Ok, I've seen that happen.
5. Polymorph the Fighter into a Troll/War Troll/Firbolg. Gets better with every new book with creatures in it.
I've seen that too.
6. Planeshift/Gate to another plane probably a celestial one) and cast Astral Projection and return to the prime. Basically you never die unless the DM uses the Githyanki.
Not applicable to Dark Sun, but I can sort of see your point. That's what Githyanki are for.
7. Magic Jar into a fighter/giants body, cut finger off and cast the clone spell.
I don't follow, not familiar with the set-up.
8. Mordenkainens Disjunction on a character with a low will save- ie high level fighter. Odds are you've just destroyed several hundred thousand gp worth of equipment.
Not familiar with the spell.
9. Divine Power+Righteous Might+Divine Favor. Not exactly broken but fighter BAB, size increase, +14 strength, bonus hp +1-6 to hit and damage.....
Which kind of requires the Paladin, doesn't it?
10. Wall of Iron + Fabricate.
I thought those didn't work together.
These are some of the more blatant abuses of the PHB. There are others. Magic isn't just overpowered but completely over the top stupidly broken. Similar Psionic tricks turn op on the character optimisation boards.
I'm going to disagree there. But then again, I rule to the side of conservative in my campaigns with ambiguous rules. I've also probably house-ruled a number of these problems without even thinking about it to eliminate the problems.
Mind you -- I'm not saying that the magic and psionic systems are perfect -- I'm saying that there's more balance than you are giving credit to it. Now sure, this is all relative, because there are certain things a spellcaster and/or a manifester can do that the non-user can't; but that's the nature of the beast, has always been.
And for my homebrew setting, I've been working on a complete redesign of the magic system.
2. The Balors sword is a supernatural abilty. The Shapechange spell grants supernatural abilities. As written this includes a Balors vorpal sword and several other stupid abilities in the book. Efreeti can grant wish as a supernatural ability. Ponder the abuse a PC shapechanged into a Barghest can inflict.
3. A caster on another plane is extraplanar. Beings on the prime are extraplanar which means he can gate them in. The elemental plane of fire and the positive/negative energy planes are basically fatal to anyone not equipped to deal with surviving there. Instant kill combo with no save but costs 1000xp.
4. Timestop does stack with itself as it has a duration. I've seen it used to cast 20+ spells in a round for awful amounts of damage. 3.5 one is better than 3.0 but not by much. Turns high level mage duels into an initiative roll.
5. Polymorph effects are generally to powerful. not as bad as 3.0 but a war troll for Rajaats sake (not on Athas though)-c'mon. Several giant kin and giants as well/
6. DM shouldn't have to resort to Githyanki if PCs use a spell. Its just a variation of DM kills overpowered PC.
7. Clone+Magic Jar is blatant spell abuse I agree but by the rules it works.
8. Disjunction is just another spell in a long line of nuke the fighter type spell. Death can be recovered from in D&D. Losing most of your expensive equipment (which you need) is almost irreplacable. +6 epic sword go bye bye on a failed will save. Cast this spell a few times and the law of averages also means you could destroy the Dark Lens with it.
9. 29 strength under point buy is good I hear. Congrats to Athas.org for removing some of the clerics power.
10. Wall of iron has an instantaneous duration. Arguement can mbe made that it is suitable material for a fabricate spell.
I'll see if I can find the thread that had the Psionics abuse in it. It had similar problems.
The classic example that many of us have heard of (from browsing the other boards), and that most closely mirrors the abuse cases you mentionned, is the case of the Darkness spell. Its mention that it creates shadowy illumination is not intended as saying it creates light, but shadow. If Darkness is cast in pitch black night it won't create "shadowy illumination", i.e. light a little bit the surrounding area. Darkness creates darkness that, if invoked in daylight conditions, produces a zone described as shadowy illumination. If invoked in darkness it still results in darkness.
Similarly, the Awaken spell (even though it does not mention this, and here I take you at your word) is meant to awaken to human-like intelligence an animal. Animals have a set limit to their intelligence score, as per their type. A human being temporarily or permanently polymorphed into an animal already has human-like intelligence and as such is unaffected. Any other effects of Awaken also do not apply since the polymoprhed human cannot be awakened, already being awakened by his very nature.
A balor's sword is indeed supernatural, I did not know that. The ability does not mention what happens if the sword is destroyed, gifted unto another, stolen, or otherwise lost. The spirit of the ability is that the sword only exists for the balor and has no reality outside of his hands. If dropped, sundered, or otherwise lost, it dissolves and the balor can recall a new blade in the next round. Such is the nature of supernatural abilities. This is the move a DM should take when dealing with balors.
For some of the more exotic supernatural abilities that a shapechanged character could acquire - such as periodic wish-granting, a pool of spendable XP, etc - then a DM should first refer to the Polymorphing articles on the WotC website as to what abilities can and cannot be gained, and failing that should restrict such abilities on grounds that they are (most of the time) bestowed upon the creature from a higher power or force that they serve. Since the character does not serve that force, he cannot gain the exotic abilities in question.
For the specifics of the Polymorph spell, refer to the aforementionned WotC article which describes in great and expensive detail what can and cannot be gained through the spell. The article solves a myriad of problems in the abuse category.
Most of the abuse cases that can rise up in a game can be dealt with by a DM who takes a minute to think before making a judgment call. Other decisions can be researched if the case occurs near the end of a game session. A DM who allows exploitative combos defies the spirit of the 3E game which is to balance everything and ensure that no matter what you play it all comes down to the same, allowing and encouraging people to do what most matters in a rpg game - roleplay, use your brains to come up with tactics, and be innovative. Finding the kink in the rules and exploiting it is silly at best, and unwise for a DM to allow.
Are you aware of the worst abuses from the PHB?
1. Druid wildshapes into an animal. Due to 3.5 polymorph rules he now has the animal subtype. Druid casts a maximised and/or empowered Awaken spell on himself and gains +3 or 4 charisma, 18-27 Intelligence and 18-27 Wisdom.
I'm not quite sure about this, but I think a druid, who wildshapes into an animal, keeps his type. Maybe he gets the augmented animal subtype, but then he still couldn't be target of awaken. If the druid would get the animal type, he could also be affected by wild empathy, which I don't think works. The only thing I found was: She also gains the elemental’s feats for as long as she maintains the wild shape, but she retains her own creature type.
This is just for elemental shapes, but IMO this also apllies for animal shapes.
Look at it this way.... if a wizard casts a fireball, he gets 1d6, 2d6, 3d6, up to 10d6 all for the cost of a 3rd level spell slot. If there was (I don't know of any off-hand) a psionic power that also was 3rd level, and had the same damage effects, then it would cost a base of 7 points for 3d6 damage. Then if it cost, let's say 2 points more to augment the damage and increase it by 1d6. So, a 10d6 psionic power like this, would cost 21 power points: that would come to roughly the equivalent of an 11th level spell -- that's pretty darned expensive, don't you think? Who's getting the raw deal here -- the Wizard who pays for a 3rd level slot, or the Psion who ends up paying the equivalent of an 11th-level slot? Or in manifesting terms, the Psion who pays 21 power points, or the Wizard who pays the equivalent of 7 power points?
Actually it doesn't work this way. From the SRD:
CASTER LEVEL
A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to your class level in the class you’re using to cast the spell.
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.
In the event that a class feature, domain granted power, or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt) but also to your caster level check to overcome your target’s spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check).
Notice that a spell can be cast at lower levels, but the CL choosen must be high enough to cast the spell in the first place So a wizard can't cast a fireball with less than 5d6 damage since it requires a minimum of 5th level for a wizard to cast, likewise a sorcerer can't cast one for less than 6d6 damage. An 8th level wizard could cast a fireball of anywhere from 5d6 to 8d6 damage though. This was something that was recently brought to my attention on the EnWorld boards and I hadn't caught it earlier.
Actually it doesn't work this way. From the SRD:
Notice that a spell can be cast at lower levels, but the CL choosen must be high enough to cast the spell in the first place So a wizard can't cast a fireball with less than 5d6 damage since it requires a minimum of 5th level for a wizard to cast, likewise a sorcerer can't cast one for less than 6d6 damage. An 8th level wizard could cast a fireball of anywhere from 5d6 to 8d6 damage though. This was something that was recently brought to my attention on the EnWorld boards and I hadn't caught it earlier.
Actually, you aren't even talking about the same thing. I was talking about the spell slot level, not the caster level, since the rough translation between psionics and magic is power points to spell slots. manifester level and spellcaster level are the link there, not caster level and power points.
I said that a 5th level, 6th level, 7th level, 8th level, 9th level, and 10th level wizard all use a 3rd level spell slot to cast fireball, and they all do different damage. a manifester, if they had to do the same thing, the power would increase in cost of power points at each level to increase the damage through augmentation.
Using the card of following the rules to the letter - and not its spirit - is for the weak-willed DMs.
The classic example that many of us have heard of (from browsing the other boards), and that most closely mirrors the abuse cases you mentionned, is the case of the Darkness spell. Its mention that it creates shadowy illumination is not intended as saying it creates light, but shadow. If Darkness is cast in pitch black night it won't create "shadowy illumination", i.e. light a little bit the surrounding area. Darkness creates darkness that, if invoked in daylight conditions, produces a zone described as shadowy illumination. If invoked in darkness it still results in darkness.
Similarly, the Awaken spell (even though it does not mention this, and here I take you at your word) is meant to awaken to human-like intelligence an animal. Animals have a set limit to their intelligence score, as per their type. A human being temporarily or permanently polymorphed into an animal already has human-like intelligence and as such is unaffected. Any other effects of Awaken also do not apply since the polymoprhed human cannot be awakened, already being awakened by his very nature.
A balor's sword is indeed supernatural, I did not know that. The ability does not mention what happens if the sword is destroyed, gifted unto another, stolen, or otherwise lost. The spirit of the ability is that the sword only exists for the balor and has no reality outside of his hands. If dropped, sundered, or otherwise lost, it dissolves and the balor can recall a new blade in the next round. Such is the nature of supernatural abilities. This is the move a DM should take when dealing with balors.
For some of the more exotic supernatural abilities that a shapechanged character could acquire - such as periodic wish-granting, a pool of spendable XP, etc - then a DM should first refer to the Polymorphing articles on the WotC website as to what abilities can and cannot be gained, and failing that should restrict such abilities on grounds that they are (most of the time) bestowed upon the creature from a higher power or force that they serve. Since the character does not serve that force, he cannot gain the exotic abilities in question.
For the specifics of the Polymorph spell, refer to the aforementionned WotC article which describes in great and expensive detail what can and cannot be gained through the spell. The article solves a myriad of problems in the abuse category.
Most of the abuse cases that can rise up in a game can be dealt with by a DM who takes a minute to think before making a judgment call. Other decisions can be researched if the case occurs near the end of a game session. A DM who allows exploitative combos defies the spirit of the 3E game which is to balance everything and ensure that no matter what you play it all comes down to the same, allowing and encouraging people to do what most matters in a rpg game - roleplay, use your brains to come up with tactics, and be innovative. Finding the kink in the rules and exploiting it is silly at best, and unwise for a DM to allow.
I've already houseruled certan things away. IMC the awaken abuse just doesn't work and I have been strict with wildshape and polymorph. Basically PCs aern't allowed to flick through the MM and other books to find something to turn into. I've heard of other games where some spells have been out of control.
Look at it this way.... if a wizard casts a fireball, he gets 1d6, 2d6, 3d6, up to 10d6 all for the cost of a 3rd level spell slot.
as meaning the wizard can cast any of those (lesser than 5d6) also, which is not true.
The point as to it being basically a "free" augmentation is of course legitimate. Althought he really only gets 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10 as augmentations while a sorcerer only gets 6 through 10. And since your example goes on to talk about a 3d6 fireball (which can't exist) it further compounds the error.
Hmm, I read your post as meaning the wizard can cast any of those (lesser than 5d6) also, which is not true.
The point as to it being basically a "free" augmentation is of course legitimate. Althought he really only gets 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10 as augmentations while a sorcerer only gets 6 through 10. And since your example goes on to talk about a 3d6 fireball (which can't exist) it further compounds the error.
That's a minor point of the argument. I couldn't remember off hand where it starts, so I defined it like that. It has absolutely no effect whatsoever to my argument, it's nitpicking a little pointless detail to the whole.
There are a few snags, but there are also some in the core too.
The biggest ones I don't like in the psionics are:
Schism. Even though this concept ahs been around as long psionics has it still seems out of whack to me. Anything that allows a character to cast the equivalent of two sets of spells in a round (in addition to any swift ones) is just sort of too powerful, even with the limit of lesser powers.
Psychic Reformation. Rewriting the past for a character while themeaticaly nice, also seems too powerfull to me.
But even with these, I don't generally find the rules out of balance. The use the psionic focus goes a long way towards keeping things balanced and is often overlooked by DMs/players as a limiting factor, IMO.
9. Divine Power+Righteous Might+Divine Favor. Not exactly broken but fighter BAB, size increase, +14 strength, bonus hp +1-6 to hit and damage.....
It does make the melee cleric more powerful than most other combat-oriented characters. Toss in a Spikes spell and you're getting close to broken. The Cleric is in my opinion the most versatile class in the PHB.
It does make the melee cleric more powerful than most other combat-oriented characters. Toss in a Spikes spell and you're getting close to broken. The Cleric is in my opinion the most versatile class in the PHB.
Druid IMHO Clerics a very close 2nd- maybe equal. It seems Psionics are more broken than I thought having read the XPHB a bit more. They can do most of what wiz/sorcs can do including timestop/shapechange nonsense and borrow some quasi cleric powers. No arcane spell failure equivilent either and have an easier time with metapsionics vs metamagic. A lack of support in other D&D books is a minor drawback if the DM is allowing the complete arcane etc into the game.
I would play a Psion over a Sorceror just about any day of the week having most of its advantages but no disadvantage.
IMC- elemental clerics do not have the ability to spontaniously cast healing spells- instead they can spontaniously cast their domain spells.
I think the best fix for the damaging powers is to up the augmentation costs from a 1:1 to 2:1 for increases in damage die. I feel this would bring them back on par with spellcasters in the case with damaging spells and powers.
The biggest problem here.. is as it stands, 1 PP can be used, effectively, for 1d6 of damage. So a 20th Psion pumping all PP into damage, can do 343d6 of Damage.
1568
A Wizard on the other hand, has 4 spells of each level. Now, his 9th to 7th level spells can all be converted to 20d6 delayed-blast fireballs, resulting in 240d6 of damage. 6th through 3rd can be turned into 10d6 fireballs, for another 160d6 damage (total now being 400d6), second level spells can be used for Scorching Ray's (each having 3 rays of 4d6 damage each), so thats another 48d6 (total now 448d6 damage), and 2nd and 1sts can be used for 5d4+5 magic missiles, for another 40d4+40 damage. Bringing the average to 1708 points of damage.. minimum being 528 points of damage.
Psion now has a minim of 343 points of damage, an average of 1200.5 points.
So making a Psion have to spend 2PP to gain another d6 of damage is just overkill.
Yes, the Psion is a lot more diverse, but with proper planning, the Wizard is a hell of a lot more powerful than any Psion.
Not to mention all of the utility spells that wizards get, which Psions only get a smattering of. A Psion may win in a single encounter, but over a strethed, multi-encounter period, the wizard wins hands dowm.
I think as long as people look at psionics from a single encounter point of view, psionics will always be more powerful. But if you look at it from a "we don't have time to stop and rest for longer than 4 hours at a time for the next 2-3 days" then a Wizard can do more for his buck, and conserve more to be used later.
In a normal campaign the Psionics is different rule is overpowered. Even in Darksun how many critters have power resistence? Just because the assumption is 4 encounters per day doesn't mean there will be. Often theres only 1-2 unless you're doing a dungeon hack.
A quick browse of Terrors of Athas showed that 6 monsters had power resistance, while 9 had spell resistance (roughly, I probably missed slightly). I actually find this number kind of surprising; one should think that there would be more monsters with power resistance, given the lack of magic on Athas? Did any thought go into this in the design process of ToA? I'll certainly replace SR with PR here and there.
And true, you don't always have 4 encounters per day. But since the system is based on that number, casters/manifesters stand to gain if there are fewer. It's up to you as a DM too of course, but I agree that 4 encounters aren't always logical. There are other measures to take to keep manifesters/casters down, like not giving them time to prepare, using dispels etc. I'd also like to say that I find the "4 encounters a day" premise a flaw in the D&D system, but casters gain from fewer encounters as much as manifesters do.
That feature of the energy powers really bother me, so I house ruled that you have to choose which version of the power you are taking when you select it. But that you can take it multiple times to gain the different energy types.
While giving manifesters full flexibility in choosing energy types seems too powerful, I personally find that your fix is too restrictive, especially for wilders. After all, psionics is supposed to be about flexibility. But if it works for you
I've thought about a solution where you make a manifester choose an energy type for each energy power he has at the start of each day. That way, they keep some of the flexibility, but still has to take some chances. It is however rather inelegant, and imo goes against some of the fundamentals of psionics (I don't think it's much of a practical problem, since a manifester could choose an energy type as the default and explicitly alter the type and mark it on his sheet if need be).
Last I checked, you can't cast spells in the wildshape form. I could be mistaken, however.
While technically true, any druid worth his salt will take the Natural Spell feat from PHB, which allows spellcasting while wildshaped.
I think as long as people look at psionics from a single encounter point of view, psionics will always be more powerful. But if you look at it from a "we don't have time to stop and rest for longer than 4 hours at a time for the next 2-3 days" then a Wizard can do more for his buck, and conserve more to be used later.
Now I find this argument not that strong. How often does a party find itself in that sort of situation. Sure, it could and may happen, but its very unlikely. A manifester (more so the psion) is about flexibility not the ability to deal raw damage.
I don’t see where a psionic character needs to have the capacity to deal the same amount of damage as an arcane caster to be seen as balanced. Divine casters don’t have the ability to deal the same amount damage as an arcane caster. Their strengths lie else where. The manifester strengths are those of flexibility, not being hindered in armor, scaling of powers, psionic feats, componentless powers, and a few others.
If they were to be compared to any spellcaster, it should be that of the divine variety not arcane. They have more in common with manifesters than manifesters have with the arcane casters. If viewed in that light, they are more in line with one another in the case of spell casting vs. manifesting.
I think the best fix for the damaging powers is to up the augmentation costs from a 1:1 to 2:1 for increases in damage die. I feel this would bring them back on par with spellcasters in the case with damaging spells and powers.
If the point is to balance damage potential between manifesters and casters, this seems like a bad idea to me. To take an example, a lvl 19 manifester agumenting e.g. a lvl 3 power would do 11D6, or 11D6+11 if choosing cold, for an avg. of 48.5. A spellcaster could take the equivalent spell (fireball or lightning bolt), empower and maximize it and do 60 points + 5D6, or 77.5 on avg (this btw equals a lvl 8 spell, not 9. A better choice would be a maximized chain lightning, which would do 114 points of dmg).
The manifester could of course use metafeats as well, which would be way more powerful under this optional rule (but still requiring expending your focus, making them harder to stack than for casters). You wouldn't have the same difference if the manifester uses a higher level power, but then you force them to take a damaging power on higher levels, essentially making them more "wizardy" and limiting their choices (which goes against the idea of psionics as flexible). Another balance issue is the fact that casters can use metamagic rods, which don't exist for manifesters.
EDIT: I see that in Sysane's previous post, he clarifies that he sees manifesters as more equalent of divine casters rather than arcane ones. I disagree with this, but then the 2:1 rule makes more sense
I see that in Sysane's previous post, he clarifies that he sees manifesters as more equalent of divine casters rather than arcane ones. I disagree with this, but then the 2:1 rule makes more sense
Exactly. I feel that if viewed at that angle the whole "a psion should be on par regarding damage" argument is no longer an issue. A psion could be that class that deals more raw damage than a cleric but does a tad less than a wizard.
While technically true, any druid worth his salt will take the Natural Spell feat from PHB, which allows spellcasting while wildshaped.
Natural Spell is just about a no brainer feat for a Druid to take. Its only one problem though. Any one here seen a wildshaped Dire Tiger Druid wearing wild armor (with magical vestment on it or barding) enhanced with barkskin, and several greater magic weapon spells? Druid used to be my favourite class in previous editions as they were powerful but were often subtle. Now they just to over the top for me. I still like them though- maybe I'm a munchkin?
How does Wilder compare to Psion/Psychic Warrior. They only get 11 powers over 20 levels.
Exactly. I feel that if viewed at that angle the whole "a psion should be on par regarding damage" argument is no longer an issue. A psion could be that class that deals more raw damage than a cleric but does a tad less than a wizard.
I've seen clerics deal more damage than wizards. Clerical archer builds, Radient Servent of Pelor builds, etc. Usually inflicted via weapons but 3.0 harm was nuts. Arouind 2000 damage with that spell in 3.0 in an epic game we played.
I've seen clerics deal more damage than wizards. Clerical archer builds, Radient Servent of Pelor builds, etc. Usually inflicted via weapons but 3.0 harm was nuts. Arouind 2000 damage with that spell in 3.0 in an epic game we played.
I'm talking about in regards to pure damage powers/spells not PrCs/feat/spell combos.
To boil it down: a wizard can average 72,819 dmg in one round, a psion 37,366 (or a puny 2,975 if he wants to survive). Now THAT'S some cheese for you
Oh and btw...if you want to be really cheesy, this thread shows just how insane amounts of damage a wizard (and a psion, later on in the thread) can potentially do...
To boil it down: a wizard can average 72,819 dmg in one round, a psion 37,366 (or a puny 2,975 if he wants to survive). Now THAT'S some cheese for you
Sounds like Pun-Pun or the King-of-smack.
Oh and btw...if you want to be really cheesy, this thread shows just how insane amounts of damage a wizard (and a psion, later on in the thread) can potentially do...
To boil it down: a wizard can average 72,819 dmg in one round, a psion 37,366 (or a puny 2,975 if he wants to survive). Now THAT'S some cheese for you
Good luck finding a DM that allows all that. 72819 is so passe. I think they managed to get the hulking hurler build up to over 100 000 d6 damage. The Incantrix is also one of the dumbest PrCs in both 3.o and 3.5 they've managed to come up with. Meta-magic/psionics is only balenced when you have to use the higher level spell slot or pay extra PPs to pwer it. Metamagic Rods, Incantrix, Sudden Maximise etc are just a few ways to get around the limits and are generally broken in some way or another. If you also allow unrestricted access to every splatbook out there including FR what do you expect.
One problem with Psionics/Magic (apart from being to efficient) is the ability to duplicate other classes abilities (Divine Power) or negate/minimise them. Blur, Displacement, Concealing Amorpha, Concealing Amorpha Greater for example give a 20%-50% miss chance on ranged and melee attacks. Wheres the feat of class ability that allows psionics or magic to fail 20-50% of the time ? There generally isn't one. How many people here also know that the 4 above mentioned spells/powers also negate sneak attack?
Energy Missile, Temporal Acceleration, Greater Metamorphosis are some of the better powers available and most of my points regarding shapechange apply equally well to Greater Metamorphosis. Temporal acceleration is basically Timestop but at level 6 instead of 9. Although you might spend alot of PPs to augment spells alot of powers can't be augmented and although absurd a level 20 Psion can use level 1 powers 343 times. Or that Psion can spend 20 PPs a round (more with quicken/temporal acceleration) for 17 rounds of combat a day. At those levels I doubt you're going to have 17 rounds of combat every day and I also doubt you're going to spend all your PPs a day in most cases.
The biggest problem here.. is as it stands, 1 PP can be used, effectively, for 1d6 of damage. So a 20th Psion pumping all PP into damage, can do 343d6 of Damage.
1568
Actually this isn't quite true.
From the SRD
MANIFESTER LEVEL
The variables of a power’s effect often depend on its manifester level, which is equal to your psionic class level. A power that can be augmented for additional effect is also limited by your manifester level (you can’t spend more power points on a power than your manifester level). See Augment under Descriptive Text, below.
You can manifest a power at a lower manifester level than normal, but the manifester level must be high enough for you to manifest the power in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same manifester level.
In the event that a class feature or other special ability provides an adjustment to your manifester level, this adjustment applies not only to all effects based on manifester level (such as range, duration, and augmentation potential) but also to your manifester level check to overcome your target’s power resistance and to the manifester level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check).
Augment: Many powers have variable effects based on the number of power points you spend when you manifest them. The more points spent, the more powerful the manifestation. How this extra expenditure affects a power is specific to the power. Some augmentations allow you to increase the number of damage dice, while others extend a power’s duration or modify a power in unique ways. Each power that can be augmented includes an entry giving how many power points it costs to augment and the effects of doing so. However, you can spend only a total number of points on a power equal to your manifester level.
So at most, a 20th level psion can spend 20 pp on a given power. Which in your example of 1 pp per 1d6 damage yields 20d6 max damage not 343d6 (not counting any feats that may modify things).
To further place things into perspective - every metapsionic feat requires expending of the manifesters focus.
Regaining a psionic focus is a full-round action unless the character ahs the psionic meditation feat, which reduces it to a move action.
But concentration to regain a psionic focus also generates an AoO so it is not without risk.
PSIONIC MEDITATION [PSIONIC]
You can focus your mind faster than normal, even under duress.
Prerequisite: Wis 13, Concentration 7 ranks.
Benefit: You can take a move action to become psionically focused.
Normal: A character without this feat must take a full-round action to become psionically focused.
What he was pointing out it the in total- if a psion were to use all of thier PSP's within one day on the power energy missile (1 point at a time) he would effectively have the ability of inflicting 343d6 worth of damage.
Actually this isn't quite true.
From the SRD
So at most, a 20th level psion can spend 20 pp on a given power. Which in your example of 1 pp per 1d6 damage yields 20d6 max damage not 343d6 (not counting any feats that may modify things).
To further place things into perspective - every metapsionic feat requires expending of the manifesters focus.
Regaining a psionic focus is a full-round action unless the character ahs the psionic meditation feat, which reduces it to a move action.
But concentration to regain a psionic focus also generates an AoO so it is not without risk.
Ummm, I don't think I ever said that the Psion would do that at one manifesting... that was just the exampul on if all PP were used in offense, 1 power at a time.
I think that you are miss understanding the nature of the example. Gilliard DeRosan is not saying that they could expend ALL of their psionic power in one huge attack (which would be totally rad BTW- like a psionic retributive strike)... If you thought he was saying this then I am surpised you do not think he was saying the the example wizard was casting all of his spells at once.
What he was pointing out it the in total- if a psion were to use all of thier PSP's within one day on the power energy missile (1 point at a time) he would effectively have the ability of inflicting 343d6 worth of damage.
Yes, this is more like it. If it came down to straight damage potential, the wizard wins (the Sorceror blows hem both out of the water, but that is neither here nor there). Now, as far as diversity goes, the Psion wins hands down, followed closely by the Sorceror. Psion being better because he is not limited to 5 powers of any certain levels like the Sorceror is. So the Psion is more diverse than any, but in a power match, the wizard is better. The Wizard also has the benefit of being able to know every single spell in existence, even if he can't prepare them all at any one time. Which is why I say a properly prepared Wizard puts the group in much better hands than a Psion.
I have been running a Dark Sun game now for roughly a year now, and I have not encountered any situation that leads me to believe that psionics are too powerful compared to anything else in the game. And I am relying on actual game play, not just flipping hypothesis based on flipping through books, or encounters gone bad that are the exception to the rule.
I have been saying this in any conversation that this discussion comes up in.. Play with them. Play with them in games that use more than 1-2 encounters per day, try to break them, and then try to explain to your group why you ram out of PP early on in the game day and are of little use in later encounters. Play with the system and use this testing to confirm or deny your original hypothesis.
I have been running a Dark Sun game now for roughly a year now, and I have not encountered any situation that leads me to believe that psionics are too powerful compared to anything else in the game. And I am relying on actual game play, not just flipping hypothesis based on flipping through books, or encounters gone bad that are the exception to the rule.
Just for the record. My concerns come both DMing and playing manifesters. Not just from "flipping through books".
:PHow do you tell PCs that they can't polymorph/shapechange into something they have defeated, scryed, summoned/called that they are reasonably familar. I doubt that many PCs are familiar with Wartrolls (impossable on Athas) but unless the DM has been very careful n his encounter selections odds are theres something awful PCs can Greater Metamorphosis into (Balor, Efreetis,Barghest,). An Athasian Timestop is the same as a FR timestop er Temporal Accelration power.
Do you guys use a "stealth nerf" by houserules or other ways of distracting PCs. PC buff/prepare, gate in Balor defeat it, shapechange/Metamorphosis into it etc.
Aboleth (Aberration) [8 HD] {pp. 8} - Dominate Person 3 / Day
Allip (Undead) [4 HD] {pp. 10} - babble 60' burst hypnotism 2d4 rounds constant, madness d4 wis dmg to any who telepathy/thought detection/mind control, wisdom drain touch D4 wis (you gain 5 temp hits per drain).
Astral Deva (Outsider) [12 HD] {pp. 11} - stun (strike an opponent twice in a round, save or stun for D6 rounds)
Archons (Outsider) [1-12 HD] {pp. 16} - constant magic circle against evil, aura of menace 20' constant -2 to attacks/ac/saves, greater teleport at will self
only, constant tongues
Trumpet Archon (Outsider) [12 HD] {pp. 18} - trumpet 100' paralyzed d4 rounds at will, can change trumpet to +4 greatsword at will
Arrowhawks (Outsider) [3-15 HD] {pp. 19} - electricity ray 1/round 50' 2D6 or 2D8 electrical
Assassin Vine (Plant) [4 HD] {pp. 20} - Entangle at will
Barghest (Outsider) [6 HD] {pp. 22} - feed upon 3 humanoid creatures with your HD or greater and gain +1 HD/Str/Con/Natural Armor at will [broken]
Abyssal Greater Basilisk (Outsider) [18 HD] {pp. 24} - stone gaze 30' at will, smite good 1/day
Basilisk (Magical Beast) [6 HD] {pp. 24} - stone gaze, 30' at will
Belker (Elemental) [7 HD] {pp. 27} - smoke form (gaseous form) (free) 50' fly perfect at will
Behir (Magical Beast) [9 HD] {pp. 25} - Breath 7D6 elec, 1/10 rounds
Bodak (Undead) [9 HD] {pp. 28} - death gaze 30' at will
Gauth (Aberration) [6 HD] {pp. 26} - Eye Rays (sleep, inflict mod wounds, dispel magic, scorching ray, paralysis, exhaustion) at will, stunning gaze - 1 round stun, 30' at will
Beholder (Aberration) [11 HD] {pp. 26} - Eye Rays (charm onster, charm person, distinegrate, fear, finger of death, flesh to stone, inflict moderate wounds, sleep, slow, telekenisis) at will, Antimagic Cone at will
Blink Dog (Magical Beast) [4 HD] {pp. 28} - Blink (free) at will, Dimension Door (free) self only at will
Chaos Beast (Outsider) [8 HD] {pp. 33} - upon hit save or -4 dex, -10 feet or 25% (whatever is less) movement, can't cast spells or use items, -4 to attacks, 50% miss chance attacking anything, 1 point of wisdom drain a round, Cha check per round to cure
Chimera (Magical Beast) [9 HD] {pp. 34} - Breath shape/element varies, 3D8 damage 1 / D4 rounds
Choker (Aberration) [3 HD] {pp. 34} - quickness (extra standard or move action each round) [potentially broken]
Cloaker (Aberration) [6 HD] {pp. 36} - Shadow Shift (20% miss chance for D4 rounds, or Mirror Image, or Silent Image) [Only place you can find mirror image and illusion, in mm at least]
Cockatrice (Magical Beast) [5 HD] {pp. 37} - petrification bite
Couatl (Outsider) [9 HD] {pp. 37} - ethereal jaunt, telepathy 90' any language
Darkmantle (Magical Beast) [1 HD] {pp. 38} - Darkness 1/day
Demons (Outsider) [2-20 HD] {pp. 40} - see in any darkness, even magical
Babau (Outsider) [7 HD] {pp. 40} - protective slime weapons that hit you take D8 acid
damage if fail save, creatures wielding natural weapons as well
Balor (Outsider) [20 HD] {pp. 40} - +1 vorpal longsword, anyone grappling takes 6d6 fire, true seeing constant [broken]
Beblith (Outsider) [12 HD] {pp. 42} - plane shift at will
Dretch (Outsider) [2 HD] {pp. 42} - 100' telepathy
Glaberzu (Outsider) [12 HD] {pp. 43} - true seeing constant
Marilith (Outsider) [16 HD] {pp. 44} - true seeing constant
Nalfenshee (Outsider) [14 HD] {pp. 45} - true seeing constant, 60' radius dazed for d10 rounds at will
Retriever (Construct) [10 HD] {pp. 46} - eye rays (free) 1/round rotation 12D6 fire, electricity, cold, petrification [fairly nice for free actions =D]
Succubus (Outsider) [7 HD] {pp. 47} - kiss bestow negative level and suggests to kiss again, constant tongues
Vrock (Outsider) [10 HD] {pp. 48} - dance of ruin 100' 20D6 (requires 3 vrock), 30' stun for 1 round 1/hour
Barbed Devil (Outsider) [12 HD] {pp. 51} - barbed defense any that strike you take D8+6 piercing/slashing damage constant, hit causes fear as spell
Bearded Devil (Outsider) [6 HD] {pp. 52} - infernal wound 2 additional damage every round after strike till cure with a CL check of 16+
Bone Devil (Outsider) [10 HD] {pp. 52} - fear aura (free) all within 5' as spell at will
Chain Devil (Outsider) [8 HD] {pp. 53} - dancing chains (animate 4 chains), 30' gaze -2 attack for D3 rounds at will
Erinyes (Outsider) [9 HD] {pp. 54} - continuous true seeing
Horned Devil (Outsider) [15 HD] {pp. 55} - 5' fear aura at will, on hit save or stun for d4 rounds, infernal wound 2 additional damage every round after strike till cure with a CL check of 24+
Ice Devil (Outsider) [14 HD] {pp. 56} - 10' fear aura at will, slow on hit d6 rounds
Pit Fiend (Outsider) [18 HD] {pp. 57} - disease d4 strength, 20' fear aura at will
Destrachan (Aberration) [8 HD] {pp. 49} - 80' cone or 30' burst, 4D6 sonic, 6D6 nonlethal, or objects make fortitude save or shatter
Devourer (Undead) [12 HD] {pp. 58} - negative energy drain on hit or spectral hand, death attack absorb creature, spell deflection - absorbed creature gives you immunity to some spells
Displacer Beast (Magical Beast) [6 HD] {pp. 66} - displacement 50% miss chance, +2 save against ranged attacks
Doppelganger (Monstrous Humanoid) [4 HD] {pp. 67} - Detect thoughts at will
Dragons (Dragon) [3-41 HD] {pp. 68} - breath weapons, type / damage varies
Silver Dragon (Dragon) [7-40 HD] {pp. 87} - walk on clouds
Dragon Turtle (Dragon) [12 HD] {pp. 88} - Breath 12D6 fire, 1/ D4 rounds, usable underwater
Dragonne (Magical Beast) [9 HD] {pp. 89} - roar 1/ d4 rounds, within 120' save or be fatigued, 30' save or be exhausted
Ethereal Filcher (Aberration) [5 HD] {pp. 104} - detect magic at will, ethereal jaunt at will
Ethereal Marauder (Magical Beast) [2 HD] {pp. 105} - ethereal jaunt at will
Frost Worm (Magical Beast) [14 HD] {pp. 111} - trill 100' burst stun (concentration + D4 rounds) at will, Breath 30' cone 15D6 cold 1/hour
Djinni (Outsider) [7 HD] {pp. 114} - whirlwind form at will
Ghaele (Outsider) [10 HD] {pp. 94} - tongues continuous, gaze - death against evil creatures with under 5 HD, fear 2d10 rounds if saved, save against fear if not evil or more then 5HD, magic circle against evil, lesser glove of invulnerability, +4 deflection AC and +4 saves to allies within 20'
Bralini (Outsider) [6 HD] {pp. 93} - tongues constant, whirlwind form, line 3d6 damage in WW form 20'
Air Elemental (Elemental) [2-24 HD] {pp. 96} - whirlwind form
Water Elemental (Elemental) [2-24 HD] {pp. 100} - vortex (underwater whirlwind form)
Formian Worker (Outsider) [1 HD] {pp. 109} - cure serious wounds (requires 8)
Formian Taskmaster (Outsider) [6 HD] {pp. 109} - dominate monster, usable on any type up to size large, control up to 4 subjects at once
Formian Queen (Outsider) [20 HD] {pp. 110} - 50 mile telepathy with any intelligent creature [go telephone!]
Ghoul (Undead) [2 HD] {pp. 119} - disease d3 con/dex
Ghast (Undead) [4 HD] {pp. 119} - disease d3 con/dex
Clay Golem (Construct) [11 HD] {pp. 134} - after 1 round of combat Haste (free) 3 rounds, 1/day
Iron Golem (Construct) [18 HD] {pp. 136} - breath 10' cube (free) 1/d4+1 rounds d4 con
damage secondary 3d4 con damage
Stone Golem (Construct) [14 HD] {pp. 136} - slow (free) 1/2 rounds 10' for 7 rounds
Avoral (Outsider) [7 HD] {pp. 141} - Fear aura 20' 1/day, true seeing at will (concentration), lay on hands equal to hit points, speak with animals as the spell (free)
Leonal (Outsider) [12 HD] {pp. 142} - roar 3/day 60' cone holy word spell + 2d6 sonic, continual magic circle against evil, lesser globe of invulnerability, +4 deflection AC and saves 20', lay on hands equal to hit points, speak with animals as the spell (free)
Storm Giant (Giant) [19 HD] {pp. 125} - continuos freedom of movement
Gibbering Mouther (Aberration) [4 HD] {pp. 126} - Ground Manipulation (adjacent squares must take move equivalent action or become pinned) at will
Svifneblin (Humanoid) [1 HD] {pp. 132} - continuos non detection
Gorgon (Magical Beast) [8 HD] {pp. 137} - breath 60' cone 1 / d4 rounds, petrification
Green Hag (Monstrous Humanoid) [9 HD] {pp. 143} - weakness touch attack, 2d4 str damage at will
Sea Hag (Monstrous Humanoid) [3 HD] {pp. 144} - appearance 2D6 str damage 3/day, Evil eye fail will save dazed for 3 days, fail fort as well and die 1/day
Harpy (Monstrous Humanoid) [7 HD] {pp. 150} - captivating song 300' charm (charmed creatures come to you by fastest route, stand next to you) concentration + 1 round, at will
Hell Hound (Outsider) [4 HD] {pp. 152} - breath 10' cone 1/2d4 rounds 2d6 fire, +1d6 fire on bites
Nessian Warhound (Outsider) [12 HD] {pp. 152} - breath 10' cone 1/2d4 rounds 3d6 fire, +1d8 fire on bites
Cryo-Pyro Hydra (Magical Beast) [5-12 HD] {pp. 156} - breath 3D6 per head cold/fire 1 / d4 rounds [!!! 36D6 with 12 headed hydra]
Kolyarut (Construct) [13 HD] {pp. 159} - enervation ray 200' at will (CL13th), Vampiric Touch as the spell at will (CL13th)
Marut (Construct) [15 HD] {pp. 159} - fists of thunder and lightning, left first deals 3d6 sonic and save or be deafened 2d6 rounds, right first deals 3d6 electricity save or be blinded 2d6 rounds
Invisible Stalker (Elemental) [8 HD] {pp. 160} - always invisible, even when attacking, not subject to invisibility purge or dispel
Krenshar (Magical Beast) [2 HD] {pp. 163} - scare at will
Kuoton (Monstrous Humanoid) [2 HD] {pp. 163} - lightning bolt 1 / d4 rounds, need 2+, D6 damage per whip
Lamia (Magical Beast) [9 HD] {pp. 165} - touch wisdom drain D4, at will
Lammasu (Magical Beast) [7 HD] {pp. 166} - continuous magic circle against evil, breath 30' cone 6d8 fire 1 /day
Medusa (Monstrous Humanoid) [6 HD] {pp. 180} - petrifying gaze 30', at will
Mephits (Outsider) [3 HD] {pp. 181} - breath cones, varying effects
Mohrg (Undead) [14 HD] {pp. 189} - on tongue hit save or paralyzed for d4 minutes, creatures killed become zombies under mohrg's control
Mummy (Undead) [8 HD] {pp. 190} - despair on sight save or paralyzed for d4 rounds, diseaes d6 con and d6 cha, continutes untill cured or dies
Dark Naga (Aberration) [9 HD] {pp. 191} - detect thoughts at will
Spirit Naga (Aberration) [9 HD] {pp. 192} - charm person at will
Night Hag (Outsider) [8 HD] {pp. 193} - dream haunting [unusable]
Nightmare (Outsider) [6 HD] {pp. 194} - blows from hooves set flamable materials alight, breath 15' cone save or -2 penalty on attack/damage rolls for 1d6 minutes (free) at will - you gain concealment from creatures 5' away, total concealment from creatures 10' away, astral projection at will, etherealness at will
Nightcrawler (Undead) [25 HD] {pp. 195} - 20' undead +2 attacks/damage/saves/+2hp per HD constant, energy drain (inside stomach gain negative level each round +5 temp hits), Summon undead 1/night (9-16 shadows or 3-6 greater shadows, or 2-4 dread wraiths) arrive in d10 rounds, serve for 1 hour
Nightwalker (Undead) [21 HD] {pp. 196} - 20' undead +2 attacks/damage/saves/+2hp per HD constant, crush item destroy any weapon or item of large size or smaller by crushing it, gaze 30' paralyzed d8 rounds, summon undead (7-12 shadows, 2-5 greater shadows, or 1-2 dread wraiths) arrive in d10 rounds, serve for 1 hour
Nightwing (Undead) [17 HD] {pp. 197} - 20' undead +2 attacks/damage/saves/+2hp per HD constant, magic drain touch to drain point of enhancement of a magic armor/ewapon/shield, summon undead (5-12 shadows, or 2-4 greater shaodws, or 1 dread wraith) arrive in d10 rounds, serve for 1 hour
Nymph (Fey) [6 HD] {pp. 197} - 30' blind humanoid at will, stun gaze 30' 2d4 rounds at will, cha bonus to saves and cha bonus of deflection
Ogre Mage (Giant) [5 HD] {pp. 200} - flight at will (free)
Phantom Fungus (Plant) [2 HD] {pp. 207} - continuous greater invisibility
Phase Spider (Magical Beast) [5 HD] {pp. 207} - ethereal jaunt at will
Psuedodragon (Dragon) [2 HD] {pp. 210} - 60' telepathy
Rakshaka (Outsider) [7 HD] {pp. 211} - detect thoughts continuous (free)
Rast (Outsider) [4 HD] {pp. 213} - 30' gaze paralyze d6 rounds, flight (free)
Ravid (Outsider) [3 HD] {pp. 213} - touch attacks 2d10 damage to undead, animate object 1/round (CL20), Flight (free)
Shadow (Undead) [3 HD] {pp. 221} - d6 str damage touch attack (dies at 0 str), creates shadow from any slain under control
Greater Shadow (Undead) [9 HD] {pp. 221} - d8 str damage touch attack (dies at 0 str), creates shadow from any slain under control
Shadow Mastiff (Outsider) [4 HD] {pp. 222} - bay 300' panick 2d4 rounds, in anything besides full daylight blend into shadows for total concealment at will
Shield Guardian (Construct) [15 HD] {pp. 223} - find master if on same plane [unusable]
Shocker Lizard (Magical Beast) [2 HD] {pp. 224} - 2D8 nonlethal targeted, lethal shock 2D8 lightning per lizard, 2+ lizards
Red Slaad (Outsider) [7 HD] {pp. 229} - 1/day 20' stun d3 rounds
Blue Slaad (Outsider) [8 HD] {pp. 229} - disease d3 dex/cha damage (die at 0 cha), becomes red/green slaad at death
Spectre (Undead) [4 HD] {pp. 232} - energy drain on hit 2 negative levels +5 temp hitpoints, creature spawn from any creatures slain under control, animals don't want to approach within 30' and panic if have to
Androsphinx (Magical Beast) [12 HD] {pp. 232} - 3/day roar 1st Roar: 500' fear 2nd Roar: 250' paralyzed/ 90' deafened 3rd Roar: 250' 2d4 str damage, 90' size medium or smaller save or fall prone and take 2d8 damage, 50 damage to stone and crystals within 50'
Spider Eater (Magical Beast) [4 HD] {pp. 234} - continuous freedom of movement
Grig (Fey) [1/2 HD] {pp. 235} - fiddle (otto's irresistable dance 30' burst save or dance = to concentration)
Pixie (Fey) [1 HD] {pp. 236} - continuous greater invisibility
Umber Hulk (Aberration) [8 HD] {pp. 249} - confusing gaze 30', confusion
Unicorn (Magical Beast) [4 HD] {pp. 250} - continous magic circle against evil
Vampire Spawn (Undead) [4 HD] {pp. 253} - dominate person 30', energy drain 1 negative levle on hit +5 temp hit, gaseous form at will indefinately fly speed 20' perfect
Vargouille (Outsider) [1 HD] {pp. 254} - shriek 60' paralyze 2d4 rounds, Kiss melee touch on paralyzed opponent save or change into vargouille
Wight (Undead) [4 HD] {pp. 255} - any slain become spawn under control of wight, on hit energy drain one negative level +5 temp hit
Winter Wolf (Magical Beast) [6 HD] {pp. 256} - breath 15' cone 1/d4 rounds 4d6 cold
Wraith (Undead) [5 HD] {pp. 258} - con drain d6 on touch +5 temp hit, animals don't want to approach within 30' and panic if have to, create spawn under control from any slain
Dread Wraith (Undead) [16 HD] {pp. 258} - animals don't want to approach within 30' and panic if have to, Lifesense 60' works as blindsight and deathwatch, constitution drain d6 on touch +5 temp hit, create spawn from any slain under control
Xill (Outsider) [5 HD] {pp. 259} - Planewalk cross to etheral plane
Yeth Hound (Outsider) [3 HD] {pp. 260} - bay 300' panic 2d4 rounds, flight (free)
Yrthak (Magical Beast) [12 HD] {pp. 262} - sonic lance 1/2 rounds, 60' ray, 6D6 sonic, or explosion targeted at an object 2d6 in 10' radius
While I haven't played much with psionics yet, it seems to me one of the biggest general imbalances with the system stems from the energy powers. Choosing an energy type on the fly seems incredibly powerful - not only do you basically ignore energy resistances/immunities, you can tailor the powers according to your opponent (don't want Reflex saves against a high-level rogue? No problem!), and even deal more damage. The wizard's increase in choices from more spells does NOT weigh up for this - he has to take his chances when he memorizes each day.
Then you must love the Erudite class from Dragon #319. The erudite has the wizard's ability to potentially learn every power she comes in contact with, doesn't need a spellbook or similar device, and doesn't have to memorize specific powers at the start of the day. She does, however, eventually run into a cap on the number of different powers per power level that she can manifest per day. And the erudite still has all of the flexibility other psionic classes have for augmentation, energy powers, et cetera. And this was created as a base class!
Then you must love the Erudite class from Dragon #319. The erudite has the wizard's ability to potentially learn every power she comes in contact with, doesn't need a spellbook or similar device, and doesn't have to memorize specific powers at the start of the day. She does, however, eventually run into a cap on the number of different powers per power level that she can manifest per day. And the erudite still has all of the flexibility other psionic classes have for augmentation, energy powers, et cetera. And this was created as a base class!
While I haven't read about the class myself, that sounds truly horrendous...
Just for the record. My concerns come both DMing and playing manifesters. Not just from "flipping through books".
Aha, I regret to say that concerns based on actual playing are few and far between, and I am happy to encounter someone who hasn't just misread a sentence and immediately decided psionics were broken.. as is the case with most of the posts I see regarding psionic concerns and such.
Other than that, everyone has different experiences. Some have no problems with splat books, others swear by them. Psionics is not for everyone. perhaps individual game styles just aren't as supportive. But for others thinking about psionics.. if you haven't read through the books.. please do so and reserve judgement until such a time as you have read everything and/or played with it.
Aha, I regret to say that concerns based on actual playing are few and far between, and I am happy to encounter someone who hasn't just misread a sentence and immediately decided psionics were broken.. as is the case with most of the posts I see regarding psionic concerns and such.
Other than that, everyone has different experiences. Some have no problems with splat books, others swear by them. Psionics is not for everyone. perhaps individual game styles just aren't as supportive. But for others thinking about psionics.. if you haven't read through the books.. please do so and reserve judgement until such a time as you have read everything and/or played with it.
The thing is, I actually love psionics and one of the few people in my gaming group that defends them. I'm currently in 3 on going campaigns, each of which I play a manifester of some sort.
Obviously, my biggest concern with psionics are the damaging powers and the uncapped limits. After doing some number cruching and comparing a wilder build vs a sorcerer one I've decided that the 2:1 power point fix isn't that great of an idea. However, I still feel that powers should have damage maxes based on the level of the power outside, or in addition to, the max number of power points not exceeding manifester mechanic .
A quick browse of Terrors of Athas showed that 6 monsters had power resistance, while 9 had spell resistance (roughly, I probably missed slightly). I actually find this number kind of surprising; one should think that there would be more monsters with power resistance, given the lack of magic on Athas? Did any thought go into this in the design process of ToA? I'll certainly replace SR with PR here and there.
Yes, these issues were considered during the ToA design process. However, we took the approach of giving a creature SR or PR to match the legacy of its 2e original, so PR might not be as widespread as would first seem appropriate. You can, of course, add PR and SR to the creatures in ToA without causing major balance issues.
The DS3 rules don't specify that in DS psionics are different. In fact the rules state that unless otherwise specified then the exp psi rules are in in effect.
The default rule for psionic-magic interface in the exp psi handbook is psionics-magic transparency. So SR and PR are equivalent.
Personally I think that the default for DS should not be transparency (rather the variant that psionics is different) but. . .
Mind Thrust 1d10 damage Augmentable at 1 pt per d10
At 20th lvl (yes I am using the top end here) thats an insane amount of d10s to be throwing out for damage.
Other than that one power I have little in the way of qualms with the psionic power system.
In my games right now I allow mind thrust, but, I am in the midst of reworking it. Either gonna make it a lvl 2 power with a higher base and same Aug, or going to make it a lower die code.
Oh and yes after a long period of my computer being dead, I have returned.
Hmm I can sum up my entire problem with the psionic system in one power.
Mind Thrust 1d10 damage Augmentable at 1 pt per d10
At 20th lvl (yes I am using the top end here) thats an insane amount of d10s to be throwing out for damage.
It wouldn't be so much of an issue if the power capped off at some point. If powers followed the "max # die based on spell level" chart from the DMG there wouldn't be an issue. By those mechanics mind thrust shouldn't be doing over 5d10 in damage. Which, IMO, is still a lot of bang for one's buck.
/rantoff
Like I said Sysane that power sums up my issues with Psionics, I have done the math on the majority of the rest of them and found them acceptable at 20th lvl ((ie without epic, this would be your max number of augment points)) Mind Thrust however is just ridiculous and in my mind epresses that there was at least one munchkin at that design table.
That power isn't that out of control if a cap were in place. The power as is allows for all or nothing save, one target, and can't effect undead or any creature immune to mind-affecting effects. The DC would be ranging from 21-25 on average and would be stopped by a minor globe of invulnerability. I agree that 20d10 is a kank load of damage. In most cases if the damage itself doesn't kill a creature out right, failing the save vs death for taking tremendous damage above 50 would.
Like I said Sysane that power sums up my issues with Psionics, I have done the math on the majority of the rest of them and found them acceptable at 20th lvl ((ie without epic, this would be your max number of augment points)) Mind Thrust however is just ridiculous and in my mind epresses that there was at least one munchkin at that design table.
Are you sure you've done the math properly on this one? There are a lot of factors here. Note that I'm just curious (which is what led me to do the math myself), not accusing you of anything
Mind Thrust will, at lvl 20, do an average damage of 110 (20*5.5). Now let's add some factors to see what the proper average damage will be:
* DC: 26 (19 from the power, 7 from primary stat)
* Ball-park Worst save of DC 20 monster: 10 (unless you count oozes and such)
* Ball-park Good save of DC 20 monster: 22 (a silver dragon, CR 20, has 22 e.g.)
In other words, Mind Thrust will fail to do damage in 38.5% (10/26*100) of the time vs a monster with bad saves, and 84.6% (22/26*100) of the time vs a monster with good saves. Now, you can argue that you only use Mind Thrust if you face a monster with bad saves...but that's a lot of knowledge to put into a player's hands, plus it still doesn't help (as will be shown below) to put it over the top.
If you include the chances of the monster making its saves, the average damage of Mind Thrust will be:
Bad save: 67.7 (110*(1-0.385))
Good Save: 16.9 (110*(1-0.846))
Not that impressive anymore.
Now, compare Mind Thrust to other powers, like Crystal Shard:
Crystal Shard doesn't allow a save, and does 20D6 at lvl 20. It does require a ranged touch attack, which generally will pose a much smaller chance of a miss than a saving throw. Let's make some assumptions again:
Ranged Attack Bonus of lvl 20 manifester: 15
Bad Ranged-Touch AC: 10 or less (or anything lower than 15) --> 5% miss chance
Good Ranged-Touch AC: 20 --> 25% miss chance(and still WAY rarer than monsters with good saves)
Crystal Shard will cause an average of 70 dmg (20*3.5). If you take the miss chances into considerations, you end up with these scores:
Bad Touch AC: 66.5 (70*(1-0.05))
Good Touch AC: 52.5 (70*(1-0.25))
In other words, Crystal Shard does 1.2 dmg less than Mind Thrust on average vs someone with a bad touch ac (which are most monsters), and 35.6 more in the opposite case. In addition, Crystal Shard doesn't even allow Power Resistence, which isn't too uncommon at higher levels.
Another lvl 1 power, Energy Ray, doesn't allow a save either, and deals 85.5 vs someone with a bad touch AC on average and 67.5 vs someone with a good touch AC.
The rather big chance of a Mind Thrust missing doesn't make it that powerful to me, which the math shows. I deliberately left out chances of power failure due to PR (since it affects all powers equally or not at all) and metapsionic feats, mostly to save myself a headache
Mind Thrust is probably more powerful at lower levels (allowing PR isn't such a biggie, and monsters have worse Will saves compared to their CR), but still far from broken compared to other powers. I'd consider Energy Missile far more abusive (5 selected targets, DC increases by 1 per extra 1D6 damage) from among the damage powers.
That power isn't that out of control if a cap were in place.
Well...augmentation without limitations (other than manifester level) is a huge part of what psionics is about. Using lower-level powers is a weakness vs arcane users as well (globes of invulnerabilities). If you remove capless augmentations, you severely weaken a psionic character. Isn't the point to balance it vs the other classes?
The power as is allows for all or nothing save, one target, and can't effect undead or any creature immune to mind-affecting effects.
Also good reasons why Mind Thrust isn't that hot btw :D
The telepath in my game has just spontaneously killed people a number of times without a display of any sort to indicate that he was the one who had killed them. Sure the other players have begun to catch on and so will other people as time goes on, but there are a lot of situations where you can kill people without being detected by use of this power.
On that note, what's up with the DC for manifesting a power without a display? 15+power level? It seems like it should scale with the number of extra power points spent on a power as well, just like the powers effectiveness scales with extra points spent.
On a side note, I don't think the system matches up with the explaination of the powers effect. Why would a fighter or barbarian have a stronger more resisilient mind (represented by hp) than a psion or wizard?
The only reason I haven't tampered with it, is because according to the system used to balance spell/power its balanced. I have however altered the feat Mental Resistance, as it stands its effects are negligable against a mind thrust of more than 3d10. Instead of giving a DR 3/- against Mind Thrust, I made it a -3 per die of Mind Thrust (minimum 0 on each die). So when you try to Mind Thrust someone with Mental Resistance you have to discard all dice that result in a 3 or less and subtract 3 from all dice that have a higher result before totaling.
Well...augmentation without limitations (other than manifester level) is a huge part of what psionics is about. Using lower-level powers is a weakness vs arcane users as well (globes of invulnerabilities). If you remove capless augmentations, you severely weaken a psionic character. Isn't the point to balance it vs the other classes?
Augmentation without limitation is what casues the unbalance. I don't think it to limiting to have a power cap out at some point. In the mind thrust example caping it at 5d10 doesn't make the power useless. This would keep it in line with other first level spells whether they be arcane or divine. It can still be scale as the manifester desires and can work in conjuction with metapsionic feats. An empowered mind thrust would be still heinous at any level IMO.
I mean come on. How can anyone honestly say that an uncapped first level power (not just mind thrust mind you) is balanced with spells like magic missile or burning hands which max at 5 damage die each?
And the "your paying for the increase so its technically not a first level power anymore" stance is a weak argument.
The power also has the advantage of being virtually indectable with a high enough concentration check, which I personally think is very significant.
That is very significant...thanks for pointing that out. I'll probably introduce some visual effect to the power (stream of energy or whatever) that isn't part of the display, I don't like the silent assassin aspect at all.
On that note, what's up with the DC for manifesting a power without a display? 15+power level? It seems like it should scale with the number of extra power points spent on a power as well, just like the powers effectiveness scales with extra points spent.
Seems like a good house rule. DC = 15 + power lvl + 1 for every 2nd PP spent. Afaik there is no feat that lets wizards deal damage with spells without some visual display, I don't think psionics should either.
While all that is true, it is supposed to be a 1st level power. Even considering that the normal scaling of psionics is better than spells due to the need to spend more power points, it seems a bit much. The power also has the advantage of being virtually indectable with a high enough concentration check, which I personally think is very significant.
I'm not quite sure, but why is it indetectable? It has Auditory as Display and therefor it can be detected. And what's it with the concentration check?
And the "your paying for the increase so its technically not a first level power anymore" stance is a weak argument.
How is that a weak argument? While I don't think that augmented powers should scale as well as a power made for a higher level, I don't see any problem with them not being capped.
IMO an augmented power should be approximately as effective as an unagumented power of one level higher per 4 points of augmentation. So, a fully augmented Mind Thrust, 19 points of augmentation (19/4=~5), should stack up to an unaugmented 6th level power.
If you compare a 20 pp Mind Thrust, to a base 11 pp Psionic Disintegrate they are about equivilent in power and effectiveness, except for two things:
1. You cannot employ Disintegrate in a stealthy fashion
2. The DC for a powered up Mind Thrust is 3 points higher
All that really needs to be done IMO is to change the line: "For each extra 2d10 points of damage, this power's save DC increases by 1"
To: "For each extra 4d10 points of damage, this power's save DC increases by 1"
And note that whenever you use this power the target instantly knows who it is that is using the power on them and even in death an obvious identifing psychic impression similar to a fingerprint is left behind.
The whole idea of them not being capped is to compensate for the disadvantage of a small selection of powers, that comes with being a psion vs. a wizard. This is especially important for Wilders. If you start capping power augmentation Wilders become virtually worthless.
Several of those metapsionic feats are to cheap IMHO.
And are more powerful than metamagic feats how (especially since they require the manifester to expend their psionic focus)?
The whole idea of them not being capped is to compensate for the disadvantage of a small selection of powers, that comes with being a psion vs. a wizard. This is especially important for Wilders. If you start capping power augmentation Wilders become virtually worthless.
Disadvantage? How is it a disadvantage? Can wizards sacrifice three 1st level spells in order to cast another 3rd level spell? Can a wizard take a slot of a low level spell in order to increase damage of another spell on the fly? A manifester would be able to do all that even if there were capped damage limits which, in my eyes, still makes psions/wilders/psy warriors pretty sick and playable classes.
The wilder surge ability would be far from useless if there were damage caps. It would still allow for "free" power points in order to augment powers or apply metapsionic feats. However, if thats still to unpowered, an added benefit could be that the wild surge allows the wilder to exceed the capped damage limits of powers.
And are more powerful than metamagic feats how (especially since they require the manifester to expend their psionic focus)?
The fact that metapsionics can be used on the fly multiple times a day vs preparing it ahead of time justifies the focus requirement.
The fact that metapsionics can be used on the fly multiple times a day vs preparing it ahead of time justifies the focus requirement.
Regining your focus is only a full round action and a concentration check.
Regining your focus is only a full round action and a concentration check.
It can be made cheaper to regain if you take a certain feat. Also, a good psionic PrC from DS or the Complete Psionic ought to give a class ability dealing with regaining/losing focus.
So there are ways to deal with regaining focus. A psicrystal is one such way, which paradoxially makes psicrystals more useful than familiars. (<- personal opinion)
An "Order" epic PrC might just do that.
.Concentration to regain psionic focus generates an AoO and since Mind Thrust is a close power (25 ft +5ft/2 levels) the foe will be upon the manifester in a round in most cases. In fact most psionics have a short to medium range while there are more long range spells - hence advantage spellcasters.
And the feat to regain psionic focus still only reduces it to a move action.
So at most you can use 1 metapsionic feat per round since they all expend your focus.
The Psionist outclasses the sorceror in virtually every way. They are both limited to a certain amount of powers/spells but the Psion does it better due to bonus feats and their energy powers are more adaptable. Even alot tof the powers are virtually identical to the arcane equivilents.
Disadvantage? How is it a disadvantage? Can wizards sacrifice three 1st level spells in order to cast another 3rd level spell? Can a wizard take a slot of a low level spell in order to increase damage of another spell on the fly? A manifester would be able to do all that even if there were capped damage limits which, in my eyes, still makes psions/wilders/psy warriors pretty sick and playable classes.
No, but they get their spells automatically augmented, as mentioned before. Affectively giving them far more power points. Psions don't do the equivilent of sacrifice three 1st level spells for one 3rd level one. Like I said before the exchange rate isn't that good. It's more like sacrificing five 1st levels for one 2nd, or 9 1st level for one 3rd level once you figure in the effects that a higher caster level would grant.
The wilder surge ability would be far from useless if there were damage caps. It would still allow for "free" power points in order to augment powers or apply metapsionic feats. However, if thats still to unpowered, an added benefit could be that the wild surge allows the wilder to exceed the capped damage limits of powers.
Capping effects would be disasterous for the Wilder. Would you play one if your 1st two powers maxed out at level 5, with a capped system you'd never have more than three powers that could be manifested at your full manifester level. And even if you allowed for Wild Surging to exceed those limits, it wouldn't be worth doing once you had passed the cap by a couple of levels.
Using that level 20 Psion example why spend 20 pps on mind thrust when you can spend 18 pps + 2 pps and empower it for 27d10 damage? Several of those metapsionic feats are to cheap IMHO.
I will agree that some of the Metapsionic feats are undervalued in terms of power point cost. Why should empower power cost half as much as empower spell? I don't really buy the psionic focus expenditure balancing a 2 point lower cost for metapsionics vs. metamagic.
No, but they get their spells automatically augmented, as mentioned before. Affectively giving them far more power points. Psions don't do the equivilent of sacrifice three 1st level spells for one 3rd level one. Like I said before the exchange rate isn't that good. It's more like sacrificing five 1st levels for one 2nd, or 9 1st level for one 3rd level once you figure in the effects that a higher caster level would grant.
Automatically augmented? I don't know if I'd go as far as calling it that. A spellcaster can't up the DC of his spells like a manifester can. A wizard can't forgo the auto scaling his spells in order to apply it to another spell like a manifester. Limiting the max amount die damage a power can do like divine and arcane isn't going to render the manifester useless, beleive me.
Capping effects would be disasterous for the Wilder. Would you play one if your 1st two powers maxed out at level 5, with a capped system you'd never have more than three powers that could be manifested at your full manifester level. And even if you allowed for Wild Surging to exceed those limits, it wouldn't be worth doing once you had passed the cap by a couple of levels.
Would you play a spellcaster that would allow you to add metamagic feats and increase your effective caster level for free as well as grant you the ability to exceed the 10d6 max for a fireball and other spells? I sure would.
For the purpose of these examples we will compare a 10th level psion with a 10th level wizard.
The 1st comparison is between two near equivilients. The spell Shocking Grasp and the power Energy Ray.
Shocking Grasp: Melee Touch Attack, 1d6 electricity damage per level (max 5d6), +3 bonus to hit creatures wearing lots of metal.
Cast: One 1st level spell slot produces 5d6 point of electricity damage.
Energy Ray (Lightning): Ranged Touch Attck, 1d6 electricty damage per power point (no max), +3 bonus to hit creatures wearing lots of metal, +2 bonus to ML checks to overcome PR.
Manifest (Base): 1 PP produces 1d6 points
Manifest (5 points): 5 PP produces 5d6 points
Manifest (10 points): 10 PP produces 10d6 points
So by expending the equivilient of a 3rd level slot (or 5 1st level slots) the psion can match the wizard's effect of one 1st level slot. By expending a little more than equivilent of a 5th level slot (or 10 1st level slots) they can deal twice as much damage.
Now, compare this to a similar third level spell cast by the wizard, Lightning Bolt . For the equivilient of 5 points the wizard can do more than the psion is doing for 10 points. He does the same amount of damage, but as an area effect.
The 2nd comparison is between a 1st level spell and a 2nd level power. Magic Missle and Concussion Blast .
Magic Missle: Automatically hits, Medium ranged Force Effect, 1d4+1 damage +same per additional 2 caster levels. Split amoungst targets however you like.
Cast: 5 missiles for a total of 5d4+5 damage (spilt up to 5 targets)
Concussion Blast: Automatically hits, Medium ranged Force Effect, 1d6 damage + an additional 1d6 damage per 2 additional power points and/or an additional target per 2 power points, Subdual option.
Manifest (base): 1 PP produces 1d6 damage (one target)
Manifest (9 PP, one target): 4d6 damage to one target
Manifest (9 PP, two targets): 3d6 damage to two targets (6d6 total damage)
Manifest (9 PP, three targets): 2d6 damage to three targets (6d6 total damage)
Manifest (9 PP, four targets): 1d6 damage
So you can only exceed the average damage dealt by a magic missle on a two or three way split, and then only by 3-4 points. Against one target or four targets the total damage is actually less, and concussion blast cannot be spilt up as effectively, the same amount of damage has to go to each target. At this level its not even possible to effect as many targets as with magic missile. One plus is the subdual damage option, but hardly worth being a higher level power and costing almost twice as much energy to manifest.
Would you play a spellcaster that would allow you to add metamagic feats and increase your effective caster level for free as well as grant you the ability to exceed the 10d6 max for a fireball and other spells? I sure would.
Have you even read Psychic Enervation?
I guess the point is that wizards/sorcerers are not the same as psion/wilders. :P
Exactly! And you need to fully understand those differences to understand why they are balanced. (with the exception of some very minor details relating to specific powers and feats)
Have you even read Psychic Enervation?
Yes
A hindrance, but far from absolutely destroying the wilder if they sub come to it. Which is fine, but lets not pretend that its instant death for the wilder when, in the rare instances, it happens.I guess the point is that wizards/sorcerers are not the same as psion/wilders. :P
Yeah, and clerics/druids aren't wizards but their spells follow similar rules and mechanics. I still stand that capped power level limits, even if they were slightly higher than divine and arcane, wouldn’t under power manifesters in the least.
Spellcasters don't cast that many metamagic feats. Our PCs often only have 2 or 3 memorised.
Not to dis your players or anything, but a spellcaster casting spells without metamagic feats aren't doing their job properly...unless you do what the Character Optimization boards recommend, and focus on save or die spells. In which case the psion vs wizard metamagic/psionics feat comparison is moot. At higher levels, not using metamagic feats on damage spells will seriously underpower a wizard. It's that simple really...
Sorcerors are a bit different but spellcasters have to use higher level slots to do so which does hurt. Psionists have to spend more pps to do so but this may not matter depending on how many encounters they have or how close they are to resting and getting their pp's back. Metamagic always hurts spellcasters (except suuden feats, metamagic rods, incantrix prc etc).
You can't use the "may not matter due to resting" argument on psions and ignore it for spellcasters. So what if you've used higher level slots if you're resting soon anyway? Being able to use multiple metamagic feats on one spell is, btw, a HUGE bonus. As are the metamagic rods. Psions can't even do a quickened, maximized chain lightning-type power. So for pure damage output, the wizard will rule the psion at higher levels.
The Psionist outclasses the sorceror in virtually every way. They are both limited to a certain amount of powers/spells but the Psion does it better due to bonus feats and their energy powers are more adaptable. Even alot tof the powers are virtually identical to the arcane equivilents.
The psion may outclass the sorcerer, I couldn't say as I don't have enough experience. Outclassing what is perceived as a rather weak and poorly designed class isn't really a good argument though
I agree that the energy powers shouldn't be that flexible btw.Sorceror actually outclasses the wizard if you use a PrC.
There were some rather detailed comparisons between the sorcerer and psion classes also.
Except for a few hard-core psion fans, most felt that the classes were indeed balanced - with a few minor broken powers and psionic feats.
What I found was that most people seemed to discount the importance of the expenditure of the psionic focus for metapsionic feats and the fact that it is required to have one in order to perform other things so this is potentially the most balancing factor.
What I found was that most people seemed to discount the importance of the expenditure of the psionic focus for metapsionic feats and the fact that it is required to have one in order to perform other things so this is potentially the most balancing factor.
My only problem with focus is that you can gain it at the beginning of the day and hold it indefinitely till a time you actually need to expend it. I think that they should alter the mechanic in that you can only hold focus for a set number of rounds or minutes.
My only problem with focus is that you can gain it at the beginning of the day and hold it indefinitely till a time you actually need to expend it. I think that they should alter the mechanic in that you can only hold focus for a set number of rounds or minutes.
Or maybe at least make you roll a concentration check for each time you are hit in battle, etc. to see if you lose it or not.
Other than that, I have no issue with the focus.
Or maybe at least make you roll a concentration check for each time you are hit in battle, etc. to see if you lose it or not.
Other than that, I have no issue with the focus.
That would work as well. I just find the whole gaining and maintaining of focus sort a thrown on mechanic that wasn't fully developed.
That would work as well. I just find the whole gaining and maintaining of focus sort a thrown on mechanic that wasn't fully developed.
You aren't the only one. I was scratching my head there for awhile when I first got my hands on XPH.
In general that's about the only real issue I find with the psionic system, other than I just want a feat and skill based system in my games. If I were to use one that wasn't feat and skill based then I would use the one in XPH.
You aren't the only one. I was scratching my head there for awhile when I first got my hands on XPH.
In general that's about the only real issue I find with the psionic system, other than I just want a feat and skill based system in my games. If I were to use one that wasn't feat and skill based then I would use the one in XPH.
I can't stress the fact that I love psionics and the current system. I just feel that there are some odds and ends that need adjustment like focus and uncapped damage die limits.
How about having it so that you can maintain the psionic focused state for your Intelligence modifier in rounds or until expended. This would give one time to see if they need it and remove an extra die roll (if the Concentration check thing was popular).
I was thinking something along the same lines, but was going to suggest that it could be held for 10 rds + your Int mod.
I was thinking something along the same lines, but was going to suggest that it could be held for 10 rds + your Int mod.
If you're going with this (I agree that it's completely lame to gain focus when you get up in the morning and keep it all day long), maybe it would be an idea to change it from Int to appropriate stat (i.e. Int for psion, Wis for PsyWar, Cha for Wilder), or 10 + Con mod (since that is the stat connected to Concentration)?
If you're going with this (I agree that it's completely lame to gain focus when you get up in the morning and keep it all day long), maybe it would be an idea to change it from Int to appropriate stat (i.e. Int for psion, Wis for PsyWar, Cha for Wilder), or 10 + Con mod (since that is the stat connected to Concentration)?
I like the int for psion and the wis for psywar ect. bit...but i would do it something closer a drowning check. Maybe like 5x Primary mental mod in rounds , then you continue to make concentration checks with increasing DC....but that's me
If you're going with this (I agree that it's completely lame to gain focus when you get up in the morning and keep it all day long), maybe it would be an idea to change it from Int to appropriate stat (i.e. Int for psion, Wis for PsyWar, Cha for Wilder), or 10 + Con mod (since that is the stat connected to Concentration)?
Thats not a bad idea. If I go this route I'll be using the maifester's prime stat.
EDIT: Another idea could be that a manifester could hold focus for a number of rounds equal to the number of ranks he actually has in Concentration.
Thats not a bad idea. If I go this route I'll be using the maifester's prime stat.
EDIT: Another idea could be that a manifester could hold focus for a number of rounds equal to the number of ranks he actually has in Concentration.
That idea also has merit and would be more then reasonable IMO.
[HTML]Psionic Power Level Max Damage(single target) Max Damage(multiple targets)
1st 6 -
2nd 10 10
3rd 15 10
4th 15 15
5th 20 15
6th 20 20
7th 25 20
8th 25 25
9th 30 25[/HTML]
Here's a proposed damage limit based on level of psionic powers. This more or less uses the mechanics guideline that can be found in the DMG for arcane and divine spell damage limits. I'm sure most people won't agree, but here it is anyway. :P
I really agree that psionic evocation like "blasting" needs to be downtuned. In the past (2nd ed), the best damage powers were "project force", a "science" that did ~10 damage, and "summon planar energies", costing half your PP pool for only ~15 damage. Historically speaking, the psionicists are not mend to be the blasters and shooters, but more the people that manifest weird powers. So that is why we converted the damage powers to "clerical" damage ranges. So: 1d6 per level (or PP) was converted to 1d8/ 2 levels (or PPs). I think it works now better this way.
I really agree that psionic evocation like "blasting" needs to be downtuned. In the past (2nd ed), the best damage powers were "project force", a "science" that did ~10 damage, and "summon planar energies", costing half your PP pool for only ~15 damage. Historically speaking, the psionicists are not mend to be the blasters and shooters, but more the people that manifest weird powers. So that is why we converted the damage powers to "clerical" damage ranges. So: 1d6 per level (or PP) was converted to 1d8/ 2 levels (or PPs). I think it works now better this way.
Well, psions were historically speaking a d6 hit die class with an average base attack bonus too.
Well, psions were historically speaking a d6 hit die class with an average base attack bonus too.
We are thinking of bringing the "d6 part" back indeed. (1) Psychometabolists are now just not strong enough to use their powers at the frontline, which makes no sense for me. And (2) as we tuned down the damage powers, psions should get something in return.
We are thinking of bringing the "d6 part" back indeed. (1) Psychometabolists are now just not strong enough to use their powers at the frontline, which makes no sense for me. And (2) as we tuned down the damage powers, psions should get something in return.
You would have to tone down some other non-damaging powers too. The only type of psion you've really nerfed by lowering the damaging powers is the kineticist.
You would have to tone down some other non-damaging powers too. The only type of psion you've really nerfed by lowering the damaging powers is the kineticist.
Maybe. But those non-damaging powers haven't been a big problem yet. If we had to down-tune all powers, we had to rewrite the entire book. The biggest problem was just the enormous amounts of damage a psion could do, which is not in flavor with the 2nd ed psionicist. The 3rd ed psion was now more like a wizard, and we just want to have a clear difference between wizards and psions. I think a psion should have more weird powers and less offensive powers than a wizard.
Or maybe at least make you roll a concentration check for each time you are hit in battle, etc. to see if you lose it or not. Other than that, I have no issue with the focus.
Ugh, that would really slow down the game, especially in encounters involving multiple PC and NPC manifesters. I personally find the focus mechanism quite restraining, but regardless of the restraining factor on many psionic feats, I agree that a time limit might be desirable. I would make a simple mechanic for how long the focus could be kept, such as 1 hour before it is automatically expended.
As for capping psionic powers, I have to agree with Sysane to some extent, even if there is an intended balancing factor in the fact that augmentation and metapsionic feats both count towards the maximum amount of power points a manifester can spend at once. For a definite answer, I would have to see the results of running simulations.
“Are you not entertained? Are you not entertained!!!!”
“Are you not entertained? Are you not entertained!!!!”
Gladiator, Maximus when he throws a sword at the audience before going to Rome.
Gladiator, Maximus when he throws a sword at the audience before going to Rome.
One of my top 10 favorite movies of all time. :D
If you want to see yours truly get pounced on by a bunch of psionics activists about the damage cap click here and you shall be amused.
“Are you not entertained? Are you not entertained!!!!”
Yeah the bunch here in the DS forums are good. Very civil disagreements here which I suspect that most of us are in our mid 20's or older, remember DS and 2nd ed and have played long enough to find out whats overpowered or broken. After 5 years here I don't post on the other boards that much.
Watched Pirates of the Caribbean again last night. Love that movie
There is one factor to remember about metapsionics- unless you have the proper epic feat, you can only apply one metapsionic feat to a power at a time due to the necessity of expending your focus. This IMO is a 'kinda' balancing factor.
The true for the majority of psionic characters, but we all know about Crystal Containment by now don't we? At the cost of two feats you can apply expend two focuses in one round and apply two metapsionic feats. And if you have Psionic Meditation (and seriously if you have two or more feats that require you to expend you focus and don't take this something's wrong with your head!) and the power Hustle you can restore both of your foci and still take a standard action all in one round.
I suppose that if you are gonna go for such a specifically exploitive build, then this sort of thing is to be expected.
Personally I think that the text of Hustle should be rewritten to exclude any move action that doesn't actually relate to moving.
If you want to see yours truly get pounced on by a bunch of psionics activists about the damage cap click here and you shall be amused.
“Are you not entertained? Are you not entertained!!!!”
Hehe...I'm not too surprised ;) Those guys will defend the system rather aggressively...
What seems to be your major issue with the 3.5 psionics system is that you don't really like tha t psionic characters now can be good at blasting, something (if I remember correctly, although it's been 10+ years) they weren't in AD&D. I haven't played with the first Psionics Handbook, so I have no clue how about that.
When I first read the XPH, I thought they had dumbed the system down too much. I didn't particularly like the psionics-magic transparency rule either, the entire psionics system just seems like a form of magic. I think the system is much more elegant than magic, but that's a pure mechanical feature. Psionics has lost part of what made it feel unique to me, but I still think it's cool, just different.
If you want to start changing psionics back into the old school type, I think a rewrite of the entire system is warranted, not just capping damage powers. That's just my opinion of course...but changing part of the problem won't fix it me thinks. Am I way off base, or is the system as a whole your biggest concern, not being unique and 'psionic' enough?
(As to the comparison to divine magic, btw, a divine caster has so many other advantages over a psion that it's not even funny
)It does make the melee cleric more powerful than most other combat-oriented characters. Toss in a Spikes spell and you're getting close to broken. The Cleric is in my opinion the most versatile class in the PHB.
Totally agree about the versatility. Where is the Spikes spell from? Complete Divine?
Hehe...I'm not too surprised ;) Those guys will defend the system rather aggressively...
What seems to be your major issue with the 3.5 psionics system is that you don't really like tha t psionic characters now can be good at blasting, something (if I remember correctly, although it's been 10+ years) they weren't in AD&D. I haven't played with the first Psionics Handbook, so I have no clue how about that.
I’ve play psionics in most, if not all its, incarnations. I have to say out of all of them I like 3.5 the most.
I have no issue with manifester being able to be decent blasters, feel that not have a maximum die amount that a power can be augmented is excessive.
When I first read the XPH, I thought they had dumbed the system down too much. I didn't particularly like the psionics-magic transparency rule either, the entire psionics system just seems like a form of magic. I think the system is much more elegant than magic, but that's a pure mechanical feature. Psionics has lost part of what made it feel unique to me, but I still think it's cool, just different.
I feel more or less the same. I feel that the psychic feel of the psion has been lost in Wizards attempt to bring them on par with arcane casters
If you want to start changing psionics back into the old school type, I think a rewrite of the entire system is warranted, not just capping damage powers. That's just my opinion of course...but changing part of the problem won't fix it me thinks. Am I way off base, or is the system as a whole your biggest concern, not being unique and 'psionic' enough?
Its not the system itself, just it needs some minor tweaks.
If you want to see yours truly get pounced on by a bunch of psionics activists about the damage cap click here and you shall be amused.
“Are you not entertained? Are you not entertained!!!!”
Hahahahaha! You fool!
You know better to go into the lion's den like that. What are you, a Christian?
/me runs