Håvard
I started a thread some time ago with a theory I had about the NoS. I'm trying to find it and when I do I'll link it.
If that is the case, then where/why did the Blackmoorians on Mystara get their magic? Why from the very Black Moor that earned that realm its name. In the DA series, it is mentioned in the introduction to the module that the black rock upon which the Castle of Blackmoor is built were full of this mysterious magic, and that is what attracted people to the North in the first place. Though magic was everywhere, it was strongest there. So that could be your source (possibly some connection with the otherwise anti-magical World Shield?)
Of course, this begs the question of where the Alphatians got their magic, and if magic is "tied" to earthly sources, how they could have journeyed through space to arrive on Mystara.
There is certainly an implication in Gaz3 that the NoS is the source of magic on Mystara, if only due to the effects that it has on magic if drained (why/how could it drain all magic otherwise?) I don't believe that is necessarily what was intended though, but again, arguments could very compellingly be made.
It doesn't have to be the source of all magic to drain magic from Mystara. If I have a tub full of water, and I install a drain, the drain can remove water without ever being the source of the water.
It's not the source of all magic for sure, else you couldn't explain where the elves, the Carnifex or even Ka got their magic from ;)
The NoS has become a black hole for magic on Mystara: it certainly attracts arcane spellcasters a lot, it gives them more power and even a straight highway to immortality, but only if they are able to bypass its dangerous gravity, so to speak. Else it ends up swallowing them and if overused, it gets bigger and bigger up to the point of swallowing all magic permeating Mystara. :embarrass
It doesn't have to be the source of all magic to drain magic from Mystara. If I have a tub full of water, and I install a drain, the drain can remove water without ever being the source of the water.
Except that Mystara is not an enclosed container such as a tub is. How far does the lack of magic extend? If I am a wizard flying 200 feet in the air over the planet, am I affected? How about nearby space? The Ethereal Plane? What if I am traveling to Mystara from, say, the Astral? Can I reach it if there is no magic there, or am I blocked?
I get your point, but your example assumes that there is a single source of magic on Mystara itself, when in my understanding, magic permeates all levels of existence in the Prime (and other) Planes. As such, installing a "drain" in one place will have a minimal effect on what is essentially an infinite "pool of water."
Also, it is likely that the NoS effects does not extend outside the world it's placed into, which would solve the problem (imagine a lake connected to the sea by a river and a dam. If the pump drains all the water of the lake, it cannot bypass the dam to drain the river and the sea too). ;)
- We know for sure that the Nucleus of the Spheres is not the only source of magic of Mystara, nor the first. In WotI we read that the Nucleus (i.e. the Beagle's engine) interacted with Mystara magical field, so causing Beagle's crash.
So, Mystara had a previous own source of magic before Nucleus' creation.
- If I remember correctly, the Karimari of Ulimwengu drain their source of magic directly from the planet itself (as described in Champions of Mystara), so Mystara is an inherently magical entity. Maybe this peculiarity makes it easier for mortals to become Immortals, and that's why Immortals are so concerned with Mystara. In WotI we know that Mystara is not the only place of the Prime Plane to have such a power.
So the Prime Plane should not be considered an "uniformly filled" magical place. It seems that magic appears in spots here and there.
By the way, it could be interesting to evaluate the Nucleus power by considering that its power isn't strong enough to cross the anti magic lava layer of Mystaran crust. Here is an extract of an answer Heard gave to a Dragon's reader many years ago:
Where did the magic in the F.S.S. Beagle come from, and where are the effects of the Radiance located in the Known World?
The F.S.S. Beagle was a starship. The Immortal’s magic was added to its reactor after it crashed on Blackmoor. The effects of the artifact do not reach the Hollow World. Should you (as the DM) decide to affect the surface of the Hollow World, the area would be located exactly six hexes north of Fort Xichu in the Azcan Empire.
The effects cover a 5-hex radius. Care to populate this desolate wilderness with Hollow World wizards?
If it wasn't for the anti magic shield we see that the Nucleus magical effects cover a 5-hex radius (120 miles) area in the Hollow World. With this info we can easily estimate the outer world radius of the Nucleus magical effects. Here is a rough sketch of what I mean (dimensions are exaggerated):
We may approximate the AH segment to 120 miles. The AN segment is approximatively equal to the Outer World radius of magical effectivness of the Nucleus. Approximating the HN segment to the crust thickness of Mystara we may easily calculate the AN length with the Pithagora's theorem.
Maybe the result may show a distance exceeding Glantri's border (cool if Darokinians or Wendarians mages could use the Radiance themselves, isn't it?). Anyway, the Nucleus effects don't encompass the whole Mystara; again, it is a confirmation that it can't be the source of magic of the whole planet.
I don't remember the thickness of Mystara's crust. Anybody cares to do the calculations (approximated or exact)? :D
Magical energy is derived from the Spheres themselves and permeates the Multiverse. The Sky Shield has a special effect on magic, not unlike that of a greenhouse, allowing more energy from the outside to be let in, but not letting anything out. This makes Mystara more magical than most other worlds in the Prime Universe and the entire Multiverse. The main effect from this is that creatures with magical abilities are much more common here than elsewhere.
The NoS is a device created to enhance magic cast by those who know how to access it. Its power is also drawn from all of the Spheres. However, the curse placed on the NoS by Noumenna made sure that for every time the NoS was used, magic was drained from Mystara. This drain would eventually be so big that more magic would be lost than what would be gathered from outside the Sky Shield. Eventually, Mystara will be left without any magic at all. This will make spellcasting impossible and permanently deplete all magical items. Furthermore, magical creatures depend on the presence of at least some magic to exist, much like most creatures depend on air. So once Mystara is fully depleted of its magic, these creatures will suffocate and die unless they are able to leave that world.
Ofcourse, as long as the NoS is used wisely, or the curse is lifted (altered) things should be fine.
The magical Blackrock of Blackmoor may not have been the source of magic in that era then, but trying to reconcile part of Cthulhudrew's suggestion, perhaps the Blackrock was a magic enhancer not unlike the Radience?
Håvard
;)
I agree with you, Havard. It seems to me that your explaination is the most logical.
;)
Thanks! It was as much derived from other people's comments as it was my own though. Which is why I love this place
Anyway, I noticed that you made another post above that I haven't yet commented on:
Let us assume that what I wrote on the source of magic is correct and that the Radience is only an enhancer.
Combining this with the Ulimwengu deriving their power from the planet itself is not problematic. If the drain created by the Radience is lost though, they wont have any magic either, since whatever magic the planet is able to generate will be lost immediately.
I believe Gaz3 says that many Radience powers can only be accessed within the borders of Glantri. Ofcourse, you are right that since Glantri's borders do not form a circle, it is likely that some areas within its neighbouring countries would also in theory be able to acess it.
Looking at your excellent illustration (keep those coming!), I hesitate to agree with Bruce's implication that Radience power can be accessed in the Hollow World. If so, the consequence would probably be that all of the Known World would be able to access it as well, if not even a larger area.
That doesnt mean I dont like Bruce's ideas about the Radience affecting the HW though. Two possible sollutions: 1) An anomaly in the World Shield just below Glantri actually sucks power from the Radience spraying it into the lands just below (above) in the Hollow World
2) We use your figure, but the power weakens the longer you get from the center. Within a radius roughly the size of Glantri's borders the Radience powers can be accessed. Beyond this, the Radience still has some power, but the effect is rather that of strengthening the magical potential in its inhabitants. This would still allow for a magic using society just below Glantri in the HW as Bruce suggests...
Håvard
If it wasn't for the anti magic shield we see that the Nucleus magical effects cover a 5-hex radius (120 miles) area in the Hollow World. With this info we can easily estimate the outer world radius of the Nucleus magical effects. Here is a rough sketch of what I mean (dimensions are exaggerated):
Another point to consider: how deep under glantri city is the NoS burried?
Magic comes from the cosmos, probably the Sphere of Energy.
The Nucleus of the Spheres doesn't really "drain" this energy; what it does is create a dimensional aberration in the vicinity of Mystara so that magic doesn't "flow" properly through it.
From the DM's Guide to the Immortals, page 12:
Dimensional Aberrations
Some few planes of existence are dimensionally asymmetrical; that is, the dimensions are not all of the same length... The net effect of such distortion varies... Limited or curtailed magical effect and ranges is the most common symptom of dimensional aberration. This is most obvious when magic-using residents of one part of a plane find themselves unable to use magic in another part of the same plane.
All three of the known infinite planes, the Prime, Ethereal, and Astral, contain areas of dimensional aberration. Most of the principal residents of these planes are located well away from the distorted region.
Unfortunately, dimensional aberrations are not static phenomena; they move in waves. Magic-using residents of a plane may be subjected to regular cycles of limited or nonexistent magic, or may suffer a sudden and unexpected removal of magical power...
This is exactly what the Nucleus of the Sphere does. After the Wrath of the Immortals, magic stops working exactly once a year. The effects of the Nucleus fit so closely with the description of a dimensional aberration that I immediately connected the two. It's well within Immortal power to move or create dimensional aberrations, and this is what the other Spheres did to punish the Sphere of Energy for its hubris in creating a "shortcut" to Immortality.
The Nucleus doesn't truly drain or destroy magic; it just supresses it by effectively making Mystara a trispace for a limited amount of time. It was designed to eventually distort the dimensions around Mystara permanently. As it is, it only creates a "wave" that passes through the world once a year.
I think the magic-dead area would be irregularly shaped, and not limited to or connected with the Skyshield in any way.
The normal effect of the radiance is to convert natural magical energy into radiance energy. This radiance energy is used by Glantri wizards to create their special flavour of magic. This conversion is where teh slow magic drain is coming from.
The Nucleus doesn't truly drain or destroy magic; it just supresses it by effectively making Mystara a trispace for a limited amount of time. It was designed to eventually distort the dimensions around Mystara permanently. As it is, it only creates a "wave" that passes through the world once a year.
I like this view- and it seems to fit with the idea that the NoS was originally the power source of the Beagle. If you presume that the NoS operated in a manner similar to, say, the Warp Drive engines of the Enterprise, which essentially bends space/time around the ship to make it run at FTL speeds. The alterations thus made to the NoS, which allow those who tap into it to use its power to fuel their own magical might, thus have a net effect that bends space/time around the NoS, turning it into a trispace.
The magical Blackrock of Blackmoor may not have been the source of magic in that era then, but trying to reconcile part of Cthulhudrew's suggestion, perhaps the Blackrock was a magic enhancer not unlike the Radience?
Håvard
In my own campaigns, the black rocks under Blackmoor came eventually to be known as 'Utherite'. They formed a potent magical fuel which Blackmoor used in its technomagical power reactors which then were hooked into a HW Nithian style broadcast grid which provided massive amounts of magical energy which technomagical devices could tap into.
During the Great Rain of Fire, what basically happened was that unwise experiments trying to manipulate the laws of nature to increase the energy yield of Utherite went out of control, producing a massive surge of energy that chain-reactioned, causing all of the Utherite still in the ground to detonate, blowing Blackmoor into very tiny bits. The mess then rained down death on all the surrounding areas.
Utherite extraction operations elsewhere also detonated, wiping out most of the supply of Utherite, except for the most deeply buried deposits.
Just a couple of notes:
We may approximate the AH segment to 120 miles. The AN segment is approximatively equal to the Outer World radius of magical effectivness of the Nucleus. Approximating the HN segment to the crust thickness of Mystara we may easily calculate the AN length with the Pithagora's theorem.
Maybe the result may show a distance exceeding Glantri's border (cool if Darokinians or Wendarians mages could use the Radiance themselves, isn't it?). Anyway, the Nucleus effects don't encompass the whole Mystara; again, it is a confirmation that it can't be the source of magic of the whole planet.
I don't remember the thickness of My(stara's crust. Anybody cares to do the calculations (approximated or exact)? :D
Since the Crust is 1000 miles thick, AN ends up hugely long, at 1007 miles. This would blanket the Known World with Radiance access.
If we go by the canon, Princes can cast Summon Radiance at up to 168 miles from the Capital (or their receptacle). This radius from the capital effectively gives us a boundary condition for the Radiance; interestingly, it doesn't manage to cover all of Glantri, but does leak a little into Ethengar and Darokin and a lot into the Broken lands:
(I put a map of the effect at http://www.thekeep.org/~wombat/Mystara/RadianceZone.jpg )
Since the Crust is 1000 miles thick, AN ends up hugely long, at 1007 miles. This would blanket the Known World with Radiance access.
If we go by the canon, Princes can cast Summon Radiance at up to 168 miles from the Capital (or their receptacle). This radius from the capital effectively gives us a boundary condition for the Radiance; interestingly, it doesn't manage to cover all of Glantri, but does leak a little into Ethengar and Darokin and a lot into the Broken lands:
(I put a map of the effect at http://www.thekeep.org/~wombat/Mystara/RadianceZone.jpg )
That boundary neatly explains why Glantri got set up there; that's where tehy can most effectively use their magic, and the limited range also explains why they haven't proceeded to establish a greater Glantri empire (that and their political infighting).
The larger 1007 mile radius is more problematic. It implies that magic should be different within that area. One workaround is that it just represents a higher natural disposition to magic, without any real effect on teh rules. But in campaign terms, it explains why everyone plays in that magic-rich corner of Mystara and not the other regions. The radiance is the reason there are so many spellcasters in Thyatis compared to Brasol.
I didn't remember the note on Glantri GAZ about the 168 miles of Radiance's effectiveness. Nice to see it encloses most of the Broken Lands (and also Oenkmar and most of the Lower Broken Lands): maybe someday a very powerful wicca will arise in these lands and will learn how to use the Radiance.
With an effective range of 168 miles the Radiance will not surely show its effects in the Hollow World.
It stops many miles before the anti-magical lava shafts situated in the middle of Mystara's crust. Even so, humanoids, shadow elves and other underground intelligent races may use the network of caves and tunnels spreading under the Known World in order to reach the Radiance-affected underground volume and try to use it....
Another point to consider: how deep under glantri city is the NoS burried?
The Nucleus is buried just a few miles underneath Glantri's School of Magic, so the approximated calculations will not vary very much from the numbers above.
The larger 1007 mile radius is more problematic. It implies that magic should be different within that area. One workaround is that it just represents a higher natural disposition to magic, without any real effect on teh rules. But in campaign terms, it explains why everyone plays in that magic-rich corner of Mystara and not the other regions. The radiance is the reason there are so many spellcasters in Thyatis compared to Brasol.
I agree. Outside this "magical-rich" area you are still able to use magic (think about Alphatia's Empire, for example), but your source of power is the normal "background magical field" of Mystara, which should be less powerful than the Radiance field described above.
The larger 1007 mile radius is more problematic. It implies that magic should be different within that area. One workaround is that it just represents a higher natural disposition to magic, without any real effect on teh rules. But in campaign terms, it explains why everyone plays in that magic-rich corner of Mystara and not the other regions. The radiance is the reason there are so many spellcasters in Thyatis compared to Brasol
This is what I was thinking too! I like this because it helps explain why we should consider the Known World a unique part of Mystara, which IMHO is always a good idea when you want to justify why you want to set your campaign there rather than in any other place of the planet. Also, places like the Savage Coast and Alphatia have similar features that make these unique areas suitable for gaming.
I also think there is a third radius of effect from the Radience, reaching all the way to the Sky Shield. Again, there are no game mechanical effects from this, but it helps explain why Mystara is such an important world compared to the rest of the universe. There may in theory be more worlds like Mystara out there, but a limited number of them, rather than an infinite number...
Håvard
With an effective range of 168 miles the Radiance will not surely show its effects in the Hollow World.
It stops many miles before the anti-magical lava shafts situated in the middle of Mystara's crust. Even so, humanoids, shadow elves and other underground intelligent races may use the network of caves and tunnels spreading under the Known World in order to reach the Radiance-affected underground volume and try to use it....
Two of the three largest Shadow Elf cities are within the Radiance zone...including the City of the Stars. Furthermore, shadow elves live, among other places, in a cavern only a few miles under the Nucleus proper. Jelden, one of the three largest SE cities is only about 16 miles away from the Nucleus.
The Shadow Elves are well positioned to exploit the Radiance if they knew to do so.
I didn't remember the note on Glantri GAZ about the 168 miles of Radiance's effectiveness. Nice to see it encloses most of the Broken Lands (and also Oenkmar and most of the Lower Broken Lands): maybe someday a very powerful wicca will arise in these lands and will learn how to use the Radiance.
Also, it's interesting to note that there are several Ethengarian Hakomon sites within or near the Radiance zone. Wonder if they have managed to tap into that power source themselves?
In my own campaigns, the black rocks under Blackmoor came eventually to be known as 'Utherite'. They formed a potent magical fuel which Blackmoor used in its technomagical power reactors which then were hooked into a HW Nithian style broadcast grid which provided massive amounts of magical energy which technomagical devices could tap into.
During the Great Rain of Fire, what basically happened was that unwise experiments trying to manipulate the laws of nature to increase the energy yield of Utherite went out of control, producing a massive surge of energy that chain-reactioned, causing all of the Utherite still in the ground to detonate, blowing Blackmoor into very tiny bits. The mess then rained down death on all the surrounding areas.
Utherite extraction operations elsewhere also detonated, wiping out most of the supply of Utherite, except for the most deeply buried deposits.
I like this idea of Utherite! I am wondering if this can be found on Mystara today? I guess with the GRoF fragments of Utherite could be spread all over the planet now...
BTW, Cthulhudrew and John, interesting ideas on the Shadowelves and Hakomons potentially having access to Radience power.
I also still like Bruce's idea of that Hollow World civilization of mages located directly below Glantri...any ideas for what these guys would be like?
Håvard
I like this idea of Utherite! I am wondering if this can be found on Mystara today? I guess with the GRoF fragments of Utherite could be spread all over the planet now...
BTW, Cthulhudrew and John, interesting ideas on the Shadowelves and Hakomons potentially having access to Radience power.
I also still like Bruce's idea of that Hollow World civilization of mages located directly below Glantri...any ideas for what these guys would be like?
Håvard
Some thoughts--
1) the easy access deposits near the surface all went BOOM, but there's likely lots buried deeper down. The Dwarves of Rockhome and other dwarf groups would be prime candidates.
2) The shadow elves and the Glaurants in the Shires are deep enough likely to find unexploded deposits.
3) All deposits in the Hollow World were likely protected by the World Shield.
4) I kind of like the idea of a huge chunk of it being inside the Atruaghin Plateau, sparking a sort of 'gold rush' once it is discovered.
As for the Radiance users inside the Hollow World--How about the Pre-Glantri Flaemish society? Some immortal may have wished to preserve the original Flaemish society before it was reduced to but one of a ton of immigrant groups in Glantri. They were moved to the one spot where the Radiance works, so they could preserve their society.
Some thoughts--
1) the easy access deposits near the surface all went BOOM, but there's likely lots buried deeper down. The Dwarves of Rockhome and other dwarf groups would be prime candidates.
2) The shadow elves and the Glaurants in the Shires are deep enough likely to find unexploded deposits.
3) All deposits in the Hollow World were likely protected by the World Shield.
4) I kind of like the idea of a huge chunk of it being inside the Atruaghin Plateau, sparking a sort of 'gold rush' once it is discovered.
Interesting suggestions there. Perhaps also some major reserves of Utherite were uncovered when the Meteorite struck Glantri/Darokin?
As for the Radiance users inside the Hollow World--How about the Pre-Glantri Flaemish society? Some immortal may have wished to preserve the original Flaemish society before it was reduced to but one of a ton of immigrant groups in Glantri. They were moved to the one spot where the Radiance works, so they could preserve their society.
I like this! The original Flaemish country was called Braejr wasn't it? So a new Hollow World country named Braejr then, more or less how it was detailed in the Dragonlord Trilogy and the history sections of Gaz3/K:KoA. It might even include the Gnomish settlement that was destroyed in the Dragonlord Trilogy.
This civilization could become very interesting indeed if it is discovered by the floating continent of Alphatia...
Håvard
Before NOS, before Blackmoor, at the beginning of Mystara, there was no magic.
The Abelaats' had a world and this world had magic. Using the magic they opened gates to Mystara to feed.
Unfortunately the magic from the abelaats' world drained to Mystara, the gates on the abelaats' home world failed one by one and the abelaats world turned to a lifeless mass with all magic drained and the abelaats turned to stone.
Summary of how Mystara got magic from the Penhaligon Trilogy
Interesting suggestions there. Perhaps also some major reserves of Utherite were uncovered when the Meteorite struck Glantri/Darokin?
That's a good idea.
This civilization could become very interesting indeed if it is discovered by the floating continent of Alphatia...
Håvard
It would give floating Alphatia an interesting enemy, which is always good.
magic before NOS
Before NOS, before Blackmoor, at the beginning of Mystara, there was no magic.
The Abelaats' had a world and this world had magic. Using the magic they opened gates to Mystara to feed.
Unfortunately the magic from the abelaats' world drained to Mystara, the gates on the abelaats' home world failed one by one and the abelaats world turned to a lifeless mass with all magic drained and the abelaats turned to stone.
Summary of how Mystara got magic from the Penhaligon Trilogy
Yep. It doesn't explain how magic worked in the time between the Abelaat Era and the creation of the NoS though.
Actually, this theory from the Penhaligon Trilogy never sat right with me. I consider it a misudnerstanding, suitable as a villain race's justifications for their genocidal actions.
My version of what really happened (TM):
The Abelaats were a vampirelike race from the Dimension of Nightmares. Originally they were able to use both the magic of Mystara (5th Dimensional) and the magic of Nightmare (1st Dimensional). However, due to some curse or other, their connection to 5th Dimensional magic was broken, and the Abelaats could not exist without this link. This meant they could no longer survive on the Prime Plane without magical means. Travelling to the Prime Plane now resulted in them becoming warped monsterous versions of their former selves. (These are the ones appearing in the first two novels.) In order to reconquer the Prime Plane, the Abelaats set up the plot from the Trilogy, involving the Abaton which drains magic from the Prime transforming it to Nightmare Magic that the Abelaats need to survive and exist in their true forms on Mystara.
The Abelaats dream of the time when they ruled Mystara. In fact they never did. I think a suitable age for the Glory Days of the Abelaats could have been around the time of the Taymorans. The Abelaats could have been one of the undead races of the Taymoran Empire. That would also explain why their invasion is centered on Karameikos, which would be as close to Old Taymora as they can get.
Thoughts?
Håvard
GAZ5, The Elves of Alfheim, in a passage where the powers of the Trees of Life are described:
Trees can exist within 50 miles of one another without both sickening. In game terms, they cannot regain their magical abilities after they've been used and soon lose their immortality and normal invulnerability to plant diseases. Elf sages think that they take too much out of the basic magical essence of the world when too close together (See Principalities of Glantri Gazetteer for further discussions of the world's inherent magical properties).
It does not distinguish between "Mother" Trees or "Children" Trees, they all have the same powers. Considering that Trees of Life can be planted anywhere on Mystara (think about the Mother Tree in the Sylvan Realm, for example), it's easy to argue that Mystara is inherently magical.
Most of all, Ilsundal created the first Tree of Life in 1800BC in the Sylvan Realm, very very far from the source of the Radiance, so it has nothing to do with it: this magic comes directly from Mystara itself.
Trees can exist within 50 miles of one another without both sickening. In game terms, they cannot regain their magical abilities after they've been used and soon lose their immortality and normal invulnerability to plant diseases. Elf sages think that they take too much out of the basic magical essence of the world when too close together (See Principalities of Glantri Gazetteer for further discussions of the world's inherent magical properties).
Of course, unless you consider that the ToL are located somewhere outside of the Clanholds, the Gaz map invalidates this "within 50 miles" claim in the eastern portion of the Canolbarth, where Mealidor, Desnae, Feador, Pinitel, and Algorn's Last Stand (described as a ToL) are in violation of said claim.