The reason for doing this was that Making lists about Pantheons alone says little about what their followers actually belive. Also, discussions about Churches ignore the fact that more than one Church/Cult/Organization may follow basically the same Faith or religion. I also wanted to explore some of the history behind the different faiths, and how one faith may have developed from various historical religions.
Also, by making a few generalizations and extrapolated assumptions, I found that this could make things easier for us, if we assume that religions of many countries are more or less the same, while some are significantly different. For instance, there is a great difference between the Antalian Faith (Followed in the Northern Reaches, Norwold, Heldann etc) and the Thyatian one, though the Thyatian Faith is (at least IMC) the basis of the Churches of Thyatis, Karameikos, Darokin, Minrothad and others).
I was wondering what people thought of the usefulness of such a concept?
Håvard
for me.Sounds similar to how regions list worshipped deities in the F.Realms sources.
I was wondering what people thought of the usefulness of such a concept?
I like it quite a bit, and began a (very brief) attempt at such an overview for a Mystara 3.5 conversion back when the Eberron book came out- for those that are unfamiliar, Eberron uses a sort of "pantheistic" view of religion (based on, IIRC, rules from 3.0 Deities and Demigods) wherein groups of gods/immortals are followed, rather than individuals. (Individuals can still be followed, but it is more rare.)
Mechanically, what this has the effect of is allowing clerics of these pantheons to select their domains from any of the domains available to the individual gods/immortals. Cosmetically what it does is create larger organizations with goals, politics, beliefs, etc., that can be used to provide more dimension to a campaign.
Anyway, these are the major groups that I came up with initially, and (I'll have to check to be certain), but they seem to fit more or less with the faiths you presented in your other thread (which is why I never brought them up before):
Church of Karameikos (Gaz1)
Cult of Halav (Gaz1)
Church of Thyatis (Gaz1)
Church of Universal Harmony (Gaz8, p. 26)
Eternal Truth (Gaz2)
Augrism (Gaz9)
Elendaen (Gaz9)
Dainrouw (Gaz9)
Minrothism (Gaz9)
Temples of Rad (Gaz3)
High Heroes (Gaz8)
Galadhaen (Way of the tree?- religion practiced in Alfheim) (Note: This is a name I made up for the followers of Ilsundal)
People’s Temple (Gaz4)
Ruthinian Temple (X13)
Northman Pantheon (Gaz7)
Ethengar Pantheon (Gaz12)
Atruaghin Pantheon (Gaz14)
I was wondering what people thought of the usefulness of such a concept?
I always felt that the faiths of Mystara lacked any kind of structure. Look at how well the churchs in Gaz 1 are presented. After that, you're lucky to find than a blurb describing the philosophy of a religious organization. I think that having a 'base faiths tree' would allow us to form more detailed elements regarding specific cults. As you can see, I'd love to work with some people to give each group (such as the ones posted by Cthulhudrew - thanks) a more detailed structure like those in Gaz 1.
Cthulhudrew, what about the Church of Traladara (Gaz1)?
As you can see, I'd love to work with some people to give each group (such as the ones posted by Cthulhudrew - thanks) a more detailed structure like those in Gaz 1.
I agree. Think we should start a contributive thread, like the one that resulted in the Wendar map.
Cthulhudrew, what about the Church of Traladara (Gaz1)?
Err... would you believe there was a crisis of faith that resulted in a schism in the church that contributed to its sudden demise? Or that I simply forgot to include it?
So the idea that some religions originate from a common base is not always applicable. It's something I discovered after investigating all cults of Mystara. ;)
Let's keep to the KNown World and make some speculations, okay?
We know for sure that:
Church of Karameikos is derived from the Church of Thyatis (Jowett was a cleric of the CoT), but it has some differences (else it would still be called Church of Thyatis). Also, the CoK is a philosophical church in GAZ1 and PWA. Only Bruce Heard insists in giving it Immortal patrons in his Dragon article with no apparent explanation.
The Church of Traladara OTOH comes from the old legends regarding the battle of the heroes Halav, PEtra and Zirchev against the Beastmen, and it completely disregards the old Traldar faiths which made the base of the traldar society from which the Traladaran culture originated. This is a perfect example of how immortals and mortal legends can influence a society so much as to completely erase memory of the old faiths and replace it with a new structured church that serves the new society's pourposes of unity.
The elves of Alfheim do not have a church. Rather they follow the Way of Ilsundal, which appears as a modified version of the dainrouw (way of Ordana), a religious and ethical philosophy more than a stratified religion. Some Alfheimers also cultivate the cult of Mealiden, but mainly those linked to his lineage (Mealidils and Red Arrows).
The halflings of the Five Shires worship the High Heroes (important hins who attained immortality through their epic deeds during hin history), but there's no trace of temples in the Five Shires and no high patriarch, so there is no organized church. I speculated that the hin priests are in fact the hin storytellers, since storytelling plays such an important part in the halflings' social life and are filled with moral teachings. Also, the meeting places (squares or taverns for example) where they gather to hear the tales of the High Heroes may be considered holy places during these meetings.
We do not know however if the halflings living in other countries do follow the High Heroes or not, so we cannot really say "all hins of Mystara follow the Cult of the High Heroes".
The dwarves likewise have a very informal religion which is kept almost secret and private. They all worship Kagyar (and this is true for at least 95% of outer world dwarves), they have priests among them who however do not go around telling everyone they're clerics of Kagyar. This means that the Dwarvish cult of Kagyar is a very private affair and likely not organized in a hierarchical church (GAZ6 doesn't speak once of any high priest of Kagyar in the dwarves' land, and since this should be considered a very important role, the absence of such character must imply there is none).
The Atruaghins worship some old forefathers and heroes who became one with the spirits, and their philosophical and religious attitude bears many similarities with the Ethengar shamanism to the point that IMO we COULD consider them identical for what concerns the spirits (William Connors, author of GAZ14, could have tied it with Jim Bambra's work in GAZ12 without problems, had he bothered to read that GAZ before writing his own..
). True the Atruaghins never mention the spirit world, but they do know totems and totem animals, they believe in the spirits of plants and animals, and it is explicitely stated the shamani of Atruaghins are the only ones who do gain spells from Atruaghin rather then from the spirits... so I'd adopt the GAZ12 version for the Atruaghin shamans too (save the true clerics of Atruaghin, which are something different, a mix of shamans and druids and clerics).The Ethengars have not a cult of the forefathers like the Atruaghins, but certainly share the worship of the spirits as uberbeings that oversee them and protect the world. Also, the worship of Tubak and Yamuga derives from the humanoid occupation (the Yazak's cult of Yamag and Tabak is suspiciously too similar not to draw these conclusions), while Cretia's cult is probably something tied with the Ethengar's own history, since it does not appear elsewhere, and has later been revised to be considered one of the three major spiritual forces in the Ethengars' life.
Thyatis, Darokin and Minrothad have a very open society and a multicultural base, so it's not strange that almost all the common faiths of the KW are present in the Empire and in the Republic (less so in the Guilds, which have their own nationalist faith in Minrothism) with more or less organized temples and churches.
We do know that there is a so called Church of Darokin though (see GAZ5), but nothing more is revealed except the fact it is NOT the official state religion (there is nothing like a state religion in Darokin). We also know the Church of Thyatis (see GAZ5 and DotE) seems to be the Thyatian state religion, but in which way it is unclear from canon sources.
Ierendi shares a similar situation, with the presence of the unique People's Temple as the only true philosophy whose priests do not actually possess divine powers.
The Broken Lands are so divided and unorganized that there is no religious hierarchy to be found. They worship individual racial immortals, and some of them probably also practice shamanism (the way it is intended among Ethengars and Atruaghins) like in the old days, most notably the Yellow Orcs and the Red Orcs, but little else is known. Shamanism can in fact be traced back to the humanoids IMO, and was later adopted by the Ethengars first (through the influence of Akkila-Khan's horde) and by the Atruaghins after (during Wogar's tribe occupation).
The idea of State Religion can be found only in 3 places in the KW: Ylaruam (the Eternal Truth, which was created by a single man, the prophet Al-Kalim, during the IX century BC), the Heldannic Territories (which were likewise forced to adopt the monotheistic cult of Vanya by its conquerors, the Heldannic Knights, in the last 50 years) and surprisingly enough Glantri (which has a strong anticlerical policy, but which forces its inhabitants to follow the Rad, a philosophical belief that hides an Immortal's cult!). These three monotheisms all were created by a single man or a single church and imposed on the majority by force (Ylaruam and the HT) or persuasion (Glantri and partly Ylaruam). Also, these three cults are controlled by a single high patriarch (Rad in the case of Glantri, Wulf von Klagendorf in the Heldannic Territories, and the Sultan of Ylaruam in the Emirates) but must face internal opposition and hunt down rival faiths declared illegal. These three cults do not originate from others, so they are independent.
I would point out, however, that the shamanism of the Atruaghin Clans and the Ethengarians does actually appear to be different on closer examination. The Atruaghin shamans seem to be little more than druids from their description in Gaz14. They are in close contact with the natural order of things, the physical world around them, and the spirits of all living beings.
Conversely, the Ethengarians actually are on contact with an extraplanar space- the Spirit Realm- which contains beings who seem to be closely connected with the Prime Plane, but are not necessarily so. The two belief systems are similar in ways (and poorly defined and differentiated- as DM points out, this was one of the major problems with some of the Gazetteers that seemed to have been created in a vacuum apart from the rest of the series, such as Gaz14), but I would argue that they are different at a fundamental level.
It would have been a good idea to either rename one or the other, or to simply make the two identical, and point out the different role of the shaman in both cultures, but for whatever reason, they do seem to me to be different concepts as they currently are described.
(To be more in tune with real world descriptions of shamans of both Mongolia and the Americas, I'd say the Ethengarian shaman would be the way to go, frankly.)
The problem with this kind of base in Mystara is that you don't count the possibility for a deity to influence directly some people to create his own religion or worship from zero.
So the idea that some religions originate from a common base is not always applicable. It's something I discovered after investigating all cults of Mystara. ;)
An interesting point, that I have considered myself also. I suggest that creation of a religion from scratch through immortal influence happens extremely rarely, since it is much easier for an immortal to simply manipulate existing elements of the culture where he wants to start his cult, making small modifications such as inserting himself and his ethos into an existing pantheon is much easier. If the other immortals of the pantheon are allies of the newcomer, he will also probably get help from these immortals. Also, mortals play an important role in forming these religions. They are very likely to retain older traditions, often even if the immortal would rather like them to leave these behind.
Let's keep to the KNown World and make some speculations, okay?
We know for sure that:
Church of Karameikos is derived from the Church of Thyatis (Jowett was a cleric of the CoT), but it has some differences (else it would still be called Church of Thyatis). Also, the CoK is a philosophical church in GAZ1 and PWA. Only Bruce Heard insists in giving it Immortal patrons in his Dragon article with no apparent explanation.
For the sake of simplicity, I placed these within the same religion as the Church of Darokin, Minrothad and Ierendi. Very little is known about any of these, so I figured it was safe to make them different denominations of the Thyatian Faith, just like the CoK. This could also mean that the Traditional Thyatian Immortals are more likely to be accepted by these churches than completely forreign ones. IMC I have went so far as to revise the CoK to include only traditional Thyatian Immortals, including a few new ones to replace Ilsundal and Kagyar who are so closely associated with Demihuman faiths.
The Church of Traladara OTOH comes from the old legends regarding the battle of the heroes Halav, PEtra and Zirchev against the Beastmen, and it completely disregards the old Traldar faiths which made the base of the traldar society from which the Traladaran culture originated. This is a perfect example of how immortals and mortal legends can influence a society so much as to completely erase memory of the old faiths and replace it with a new structured church that serves the new society's pourposes of unity.
The creation of the modern Traladaran Faith was formed after the Beastman Invasions, a very dramatic (and traumatic) time for these people. We know that this has caused them to pretty much forget their older pantheon, though I would think it likely that other elements from the older religion may still exist today such as creation myths, various sources to Traldar superstition etc. It is even possible that names of older immortals are still remembered even though they are not worshipped today and their significance has been completely overshadowed of the Three.
The elves of Alfheim do not have a church. Rather they follow the Way of Ilsundal, which appears as a modified version of the dainrouw (way of Ordana), a religious and ethical philosophy more than a stratified religion. Some Alfheimers also cultivate the cult of Mealiden, but mainly those linked to his lineage (Mealidils and Red Arrows).
Religion is still organized by Treekeepers and Clan Masters. Again, I consider the various elven groups as following different denominations of the same Faith, dainrouw and the Way of Ilsundal...
The halflings of the Five Shires worship the High Heroes (important hins who attained immortality through their epic deeds during hin history), but there's no trace of temples in the Five Shires and no high patriarch, so there is no organized church. I speculated that the hin priests are in fact the hin storytellers, since storytelling plays such an important part in the halflings' social life and are filled with moral teachings. Also, the meeting places (squares or taverns for example) where they gather to hear the tales of the High Heroes may be considered holy places during these meetings.
We do not know however if the halflings living in other countries do follow the High Heroes or not, so we cannot really say "all hins of Mystara follow the Cult of the High Heroes".
Good point with the role of the storytellers. I'd also suggest that religion here is associated with the clans. The most important religious leaders are however the Relic Keepers and the Hin Masters. Hin of Mystara have a tendency to adapt to local (usually human) society, and it is likely that in many countries they have also adopted the religions of the countries they are living in. However, only the Cult of the High Heroes can be considered a Hin Faith.
The dwarves likewise have a very informal religion which is kept almost secret and private. They all worship Kagyar (and this is true for at least 95% of outer world dwarves), they have priests among them who however do not go around telling everyone they're clerics of Kagyar. This means that the Dwarvish cult of Kagyar is a very private affair and likely not organized in a hierarchical church (GAZ6 doesn't speak once of any high priest of Kagyar in the dwarves' land, and since this should be considered a very important role, the absence of such character must imply there is none).
Interestingly enough, Rockhome is sometimes described as a Theocracy. Yet again, the marriage between religion and clan seems likely, and certain family members who choose to go on to become clerics perform religious functions for their clans. As usual, religious rites marking the life cycle is probably important for dwarves aswell...
Whew,
I think I will have to comment on the rest later. Thanks for posting this very good overview of the KW churches btw, they proved an excellent starting point for the discussion of Faiths and their possible developments...
Håvard
The problem with this kind of base in Mystara is that you don't count the possibility for a deity to influence directly some people to create his own religion or worship from zero.
So the idea that some religions originate from a common base is not always applicable. It's something I discovered after investigating all cults of Mystara.
Absolutely! I didn't mean to imply that a faith had to be even similar to it's base, but rather just show that the base is what came before. And as Havard pointed out, sometimes elements of the base squeak their way into the next phase of the faith. I think we can have a lot of fun working with all of this (including creating the faiths that 'came before'). Great start with your comments, DM.
Church of Karameikos is derived from the Church of Thyatis (Jowett was a cleric of the CoT), but it has some differences (else it would still be called Church of Thyatis).
I think that removing the Immortals from a faith is a major difference!
In Jowett's bio in gaz 1 it says things like he wanted to spread the "Good Word of his Church" (that being the CoT). They formed a new Church "based on their own interpretations of religious philosophies and the needs of the peoples of Karameikos". The CoK is "strongly resembling the churches of Thyatis but with its own distinctive attitudes".What these attitudes regarding religious philosophy are, I believe IMHO, formed the greater emphasis on the pursuit of an "unstained spirit". Jowett saw the native Traladarans as too "whimsical" and "superstitious", and so tried to bring an intensified version of the CoT to mould these people into a more Thyatian-like attitude. How does this sound?
Only Bruce Heard insists in giving it Immortal patrons in his Dragon article with no apparent explanation.
I find the gazes severely lacking when it comes to idenifying which Immortals are followed where (which is why I value your regional lists so much!). Canon material is filled to overflowing with Immortals and their followers but the gazes don't mention most of them. It's almost as if the writers of some of the gazes were afraid to say 'you can find followers of [this Immortal] here'.
But as for the Immortals of the CoK, I think they just didn't know which belonged to the CoT to begin with and so just left it at that. That's my feelings anyhow.
The creation of the modern Traladaran Faith was formed after the Beastman Invasions, a very dramatic (and traumatic) time for these people. We know that this has caused them to pretty much forget their older pantheon, though I would think it likely that other elements from the older religion may still exist today such as creation myths, various sources to Traldar superstition etc. It is even possible that names of older immortals are still remembered even though they are not worshipped today and their significance has been completely overshadowed of the Three.
I love this idea. As a matter of fact, I'd say that the superstitions that the Traladarans have today had their origin in the elder religion! We should work it out in some more detail. One of the things I love about Mystara is the history and the ability to campaign in such a great array of eras.
The Rockhome gaz gives a little insight into the structure,
The clerics of Rockhome do form a sort of society; they meet in forum on a regular basis to discuss their philosophies, the current spiritual state of the nation, how they can better guide the dwarves in communion with Kagyar and the earth, etc.
Rockhome's 'state religion' is quite differently structured compared to most human ones. I agree that it is much more private in comparison, yet I also think it has tremendous meaning to them and tied closely to clan life. The 'hierarchy' is probably formed by the elder cleric in each family grouping; by that I mean family, extended family, clan, greater clan. It is very possible that there is no high priest, but rather perhaps a moderator (in the fashion of their senators when holding a forum).
Definately more to say but I got to go...
I think that removing the Immortals from a faith is a major difference!
What these attitudes regarding religious philosophy are, I believe IMHO, formed the greater emphasis on the pursuit of an "unstained spirit". Jowett saw the native Traladarans as too "whimsical" and "superstitious", and so tried to bring an intensified version of the CoT to mould these people into a more Thyatian-like attitude. How does this sound?
I agree with all of this. Describing the Cok as an intensified version of the Church of Thyatis (careful about the CoT abbreviation since it could also mean the Church of Traladara). The changes Jowett made are indeed to be considered major as you say. I like to compare it to the Protestant Reformation or the split between Eastern and Western Christianity though the circumstances were quite different.
I find the gazes severely lacking when it comes to idenifying which Immortals are followed where (which is why I value your regional lists so much!). Canon material is filled to overflowing with Immortals and their followers but the gazes don't mention most of them. It's almost as if the writers of some of the gazes were afraid to say 'you can find followers of [this Immortal] here'.
But as for the Immortals of the CoK, I think they just didn't know which belonged to the CoT to begin with and so just left it at that. That's my feelings anyhow.
I think the designers were very careful about avoiding too many references to the Immortals because of the RPGs and Satanism craze that went on in the 80s.
DM has done a great job identifying which immortals are worshipped in which country. These provide an excellent basis for working out which immortals belong to which faith. Although I havent spelled it out so far, I think Jowett didnt so much remove immortals from his pantheon, than he did shifting focus from many of them towards a select few.This allowed him to have a much more defined ethos for his church whereas the Church of Thyatis is split between fractionous cults who disagree about central moral issues.
I love this idea. As a matter of fact, I'd say that the superstitions that the Traladarans have today had their origin in the elder religion! We should work it out in some more detail. One of the things I love about Mystara is the history and the ability to campaign in such a great array of eras.
Take a look at James Mishler's Tarsian Twelve article, which offers one interpretation of what the Traladarans believed in before the Beastman invasions. Interestingly, this suggests a Faith not unlike that of Greek Mythology, again not too different from Roman or Thyatian religion, suggesting that they have the same roots from centuries back. Some of this could be remenants from Nithian beliefs somewhat altered by the Spell of Oblivion...
Do you have more ideas for developing original Traldar beliefs?
The Rockhome gaz gives a little insight into the structure,
Rockhome's 'state religion' is quite differently structured compared to most human ones. I agree that it is much more private in comparison, yet I also think it has tremendous meaning to them and tied closely to clan life. The 'hierarchy' is probably formed by the elder cleric in each family grouping; by that I mean family, extended family, clan, greater clan. It is very possible that there is no high priest, but rather perhaps a moderator (in the fashion of their senators when holding a forum).
Definately more to say but I got to go...
This is pretty much how I see it too
Keep this topic going!
Håvard
Also, the CoK is a philosophical church in GAZ1 and PWA. Only Bruce Heard insists in giving it Immortal patrons in his Dragon article with no apparent explanation.
There was, as you know, a great change in design philosophy regarding the Immortals as the line went on. At first, the Immortals were intended to be hidden figures who characters didn't even know about until Master level. Later on they became the equivalents of the "gods" mentioned in the Basic Set, suitable as patrons of 2nd level clerics. When Gaz 1 was published, there wasn't a readily available Known World pantheon; when Bruce Heard wrote that Dragon article there was, and it made sense to retcon the early Gazetteers to account for that.
The changes Jowett made are indeed to be considered major as you say.
I think I should clarify my statement. What I meant was, if Jowett *did* remove Immortals from his church, then *that* would be a *major* change. Therefore, I don't think he did remove them.
Havard and ripvanwormer gave good points on why none may have been mentioned.
Thanks for caution regarding 'CoT', Havard! I think I'll use CoTra and CoThy from now on (unless someone has another idea). I'll certainly check out James' article (on the Vaults right?). As for developing original Traldar beliefs, I'll think about after reading James' article, but I don't have anything in particular in mind at the moment.
So I reconciled the GAZ and the Dragon version: the CoK still follows the philosophy of the pure soul as its primary concern, but also indicates some immortals as patrons and as SAINTS, divine embodiments of some theological virtues each follower must imitate or strive to reach.
So for example, Asterius is the epitome of Tolerance and Prosperity through peaceful cooperation, Kagyar embodies Honesty, Talent and Hard Work, Vanya is revered for her Courage and as Bringer of Victory, Ilsundal embodies Wisdom, as well as all that is Natural and Pure, while Patura (she's LG and substitues Valerias IMO) is the essence of Motherhood, Fertility and Charity.
Also Jowett chose to use certain typical Thyatian immortals to oppose the typical Traladaran Three which are so famous among the natives (Vanya vs Halav, Ilsundal vs Zirchev, Patura vs Petra) and to get the demi-humans' sympathies by worshipping typical demi-human deities such as Kagyar and Ilsundal.
However, the CoK does not mount a crusade against other churches and beliefs, but prefers to concentrate on fighting the evil that is inside every person and that is embodied by the Enemy (an alter ego of Thanatos).
The descriptions in the post above fit very well with Jowett's personal religious philosophy. However, Jowett is not only a brilliant theologist, he is also a competent statesman. He has been a friend (probably confessor of) the Duke since before he gained posession of the lands of Traladara, and the idea of building a national church/religion for the new nation goes very well with Stefan's own ideas for Karameikos.
Jowett knew that he needed more Clerics to join him if he was to build a successful church in the new country. These Clerics needed to be convinced to leave their old church and begin anew. Some immediately liked the idea of getting their religion more organized, creating a new church with more authority, and clearly devoted to Law. However, Jowett realized that many of these Clerics were extremists on the Law side, wishing to launch a Crusade against the Traladaran infidels, along with other human and demihuman unbelievers. This was not what Jowett wanted and it would mean losing the favor of the Duke. To balance this, Jowett also opened for a more moderate interpretation of his philosophies, including several Immortals representing more liberal values (Neutrals and even a Chaotic one).
The Church's philosophy today can probably best be characterized as NG, though leaning towards the Lawful side rather than the Chaotic. Alfric Oderbry's faction is pressing for the Church to go much stronger towards the Lawful side, to the point of becoming LN. Sherlane Halaran's faction, though under a clearly LG leadership is more tolerant towards the neutral clerics as well as showing a more open attitude towards the Traladaran Faith...
That do you think?
Håvard
...but also indicates some immortals as patrons and as SAINTS, divine embodiments of some theological virtues each follower must imitate or strive to reach.
DM! You're scaring me! Lately it's been like you've been reading my mind! :D
I hadn't even finished reading the first sentence in your post when I though I should post about how I thought of the Immortals in the CoK being patrons, powers to whom the faithful (and sometimes not-so-faithful ;) ) beseech; which Immortal depends on the need. I need to find something to disagree with you about! ;)