I got my copy of Dragon #339, the Campaign Classics issue.
I guess my initial reaction was that of a bit of disappointment since there is so little Mystara material in there compared with last years Campaign Classics issue which had 3 whole articles usable with Mystara (Known World, Hollow World, Blackmoor), while this time, we are left with 3 converted Monsters. Even Mystara's name has been left out of the cover which mentions GH, DS, PS, RL, DL and SJ...
Still, it is great seeing Mystara material in print again!
As has been commented elsewhere, the Nagpa as a Template was a bit of a mystery, but I noticed that it is only applicable to human and half-elf sorcerors. Not sure that this is a good thing though, given the controversy over the existance of half-elves in Mystara. The illustrations were love though, My favorite was the Nagpa, followed by the Phanaton, and the Dusanu wasnt too bad either. I also liked the detailing of the Nagpa Staff, as a unique type of item, has that been mentioned in prior sources? I would have liked to see a reference to their Tabi familiars though.
As a side note, I also enjoyed the other articles of the magazine, even if they werent related to Mystara. The CC issues remain my favorite DrM issues these days.
What do the rest of you think?
Håvard
What do the rest of you think?
I flipped through the issue to see if there was any more to it than had been mentioned in other threads here, but ultimately didn't buy it. The only reason I really had to was for completeness' sake, but in the end, I was just disappointed that the Mystara material was only monster stats and not even something more useful and comprehensive like the Winning Races articles for Lupins and Diaboli. That, plus the Nagpa template just didn't really appeal to me. I can sort of see the rationale behind it, but not only do I think it didn't work terribly well as presented, it just doesn't seem to fit with the other source material we (as Mystaraphiles) have on Nagpa.
Thus, I decided to "vote with my dollars" so to speak, and not support this Mystara-related issue. I hope that doesn't sound too harsh, because I really was torn about buying it (and am totally in favor of *any* attempt to bring Mystara back to the mainstream), but for this particular issue I just couldn't bring myself to shell out the cash. I've already done a phanaton conversion of my own, ages ago (and didn't see any significant differences with this one), and much as I love the Dusanu, didn't really just want to see a stat block for it, which is something I can do myself.
I also liked the detailing of the Nagpa Staff, as a unique type of item, has that been mentioned in prior sources? I would have liked to see a reference to their Tabi familiars though.
The staves were from the Mystara Monstrous Compendium Appendix. The conversion was very close to that entry, obviously being based on it without reference to other Nagpa things like Top Ballista or the Princess Ark article. Sean K. Reynolds may not have realized these other references existed, and none of the editorial staff did either.
And yeah, tabi are great.
Sean K. Reynolds may not have realized these other references existed, and none of the editorial staff did either.
And yeah, tabi are great.
This being true is a very bad research work from the dragon staff...
And yeah, rakastas are great!!!
:D
I got my copy of Dragon #339, the Campaign Classics issue.
I guess my initial reaction was that of a bit of disappointment since there is so little Mystara material in there compared with last years Campaign Classics issue which had 3 whole articles usable with Mystara (Known World, Hollow World, Blackmoor), while this time, we are left with 3 converted Monsters. Even Mystara's name has been left out of the cover which mentions GH, DS, PS, RL, DL and SJ...
and you even forgot the Red Steel article is issue 315 Håvard. Yeah the lack of the name on the cover was another little annoyance hey.
Still, it is great seeing Mystara material in print again!
As has been commented elsewhere, the Nagpa as a Template was a bit of a mystery, but I noticed that it is only applicable to human and half-elf sorcerors. Not sure that this is a good thing though, given the controversy over the existance of half-elves in Mystara. The illustrations were love though, My favorite was the Nagpa, followed by the Phanaton, and the Dusanu wasnt too bad either. I also liked the detailing of the Nagpa Staff, as a unique type of item, has that been mentioned in prior sources? I would have liked to see a reference to their Tabi familiars though.
though the Dusanu has also changed a fair bit from their X5 debut as well, admitedly I think a lot of that occured in the Monstrous Compendium.
As a side note, I also enjoyed the other articles of the magazine, even if they werent related to Mystara. The CC issues remain my favorite DrM issues these days.
What do the rest of you think?
Håvard
yeah I have to admit that I enjoyed the issue a lot as well because a lot of the other articles were really interesting even though they're from campaigns I haven't played in in ages or never played in.
According to Bruce Heard's article in Dragon magazine, nagpas were created specifically as a result of an immortal curse that befell the surviving Varellyans, who were turned into nagpas and doomed to look for a way to break their curse. Nagpas are basically forced to live in this ugly form, and once they die, their soul reincarnates into an egg that appears in a great crater in the heart of the Vulture Peninsula. Once the egg is ready, it hatches and produces a small nagpa, which matures very quickly up to the point of the adult form, gaining back his memories and beginning his quest anew. That's what we gather from the old Dragon article describing Varellya and the Vulture Peninsula at least. And that's why one can find Nagpas traveling around the world: they are looking for a way to break their curse (the only solution would be to find the prince of Varellya who was betrayed by his brother Abatu, the one who caused the fall of Varellya and summoned the demon that destroyed everything and laid the curse on the survivors).
I doubt there may be other kind of nagpas around the world. This is prolly a distortion that comes from the description in the Mystara MC Appendix for AD&D. Making nagpa a template is just weird, but I suppose it follows the description in the AD&D manual (completely disregarding the Dragon article, which IMO gave a much more interesting background to Mystaran nagpas).
If we consider what is written in Dragon and the 2E Mystara MC, and make the Nagpa victims of a generic curse that is sometimes used by immortals to punish mortals (yes they have a few of those laying around :P ), the Varellyan Nagpas would be a unique case of a massive curse, while most regular nagpa are cursed on an individual basis.
We could even use Traianus' Nagpa conversion to represent the Varellyan Nagpa, while the Dragon variant could represent the others.
What do you think?
Just for the record, I agree that it is pretty disappointing how little research the authors did for this race conversion. Also previous Mystara articles have suffered from the fact that the authors overlooked many important sources for the creatures/races converted...
Håvard
Any creature that was presented as a player race at some point will require more attention than a basic conversion, so I'm delaying the conversion of those creatures.
I do not like the Nagpa as template idea at all, as it ignores the Dragon article, PC2, and most of the OD&D info. While it certainly would be a major feat for nagpa to venture as far and wide from the Vulcan Peninsula as some have gotten, it would not be unusual for a scholarly type to travel extensively to expand its knowledge (particular when they are reincarnated and meditate on past lives every day). I think Dragon focused on Make it playable in any campaign, rather than make a faithful conversion for Mystara.
Just for the record, I have not done a Nagpa conversion yet- the one you are thinking of was posted by ripvanwormer.
Any creature that was presented as a player race at some point will require more attention than a basic conversion, so I'm delaying the conversion of those creatures.
I do not like the Nagpa as template idea at all, as it ignores the Dragon article, PC2, and most of the OD&D info. While it certainly would be a major feat for nagpa to venture as far and wide from the Vulcan Peninsula as some have gotten, it would not be unusual for a scholarly type to travel extensively to expand its knowledge (particular when they are reincarnated and meditate on past lives every day). I think Dragon focused on Make it playable in any campaign, rather than make a faithful conversion for Mystara.
Ooops! Sorry Ripvanwormer! :embarrass
Traianus, I'm not neccesarily a big fan of the Template idea either, and I think you are right that Dragon were looking to make it appeal to players of other campaign settings.
While I wouldnt say travel between the VP and the KW is impossible, I think having every Nagpa be born there makes it hard to accept more than a few individuals from that race to be found in the KW...
Håvard
The only nagpas that we find outside Davania in canon sources are the nagpas of Serraine (which are not many) from PC2, and the nagpa featured in X4... which (believe it or not) is none others than PRINCE ABATU himself (prolly that's where Bruce took the name for his character).
Given the fact that Serraine travels all around Mystara and can float wherever it wants, it's not so strange that once some nagpas discover it and board it, they'll use it to reach the far corners of Mystara to pursue their goals (and Abatu has a ring of Teleportation that brings him directly into his quarters in Serraine!). ;) :P
Also, since the nagpas have arcane powers and can become arcane spellcasters, the use of Fly and Teleport seems a lot more common for this race and they can be used to travel for long distances..
Perhaps a lot of them are attracted to the Known World because they can dimly sense the Nucleus of the Spheres. Or maybe they just want access to the schools of magic found in Glantri, Alphatia, and elsewhere.
Dragon #339 actually added a clause to their curse forcing them to constantly wander, but I don't think that's necessary or desirable. It would prevent them from building the great tomblike libraries that Top Ballista says they have, for example.
Thanks for the input on the Nagpa, DM and rip. Ripvanwormer, I agree that we need to keep the libraries of Serraine, so so much for the curse from Dragon. DM, it is indeed interesting that Prince Abatu is the one from X4! Bruce was a guy who knew how to properly research the races he was working on! (BTW: Bruce posted a new years greeting on the Mystara3E list, so he is still out there somewhere...)
So, on the other races...The Dusanu was always made out to be an impressive and fearsome creature in OD&D. But has anyone ever used it? Any cool ideas for an adventure featuring those guys?
I've always liked the Phanatons. Are there any known settlements of these guys except for the Isle of Dread and Jibaru? I forget if they appeared in M4 or not....
Håvard
I've always liked the Phanatons. Are there any known settlements of these guys except for the Isle of Dread and Jibaru? I forget if they appeared in M4 or not....
Håvard
M5 Talons of Night has canon for a phanaton colony on top of the Thothian plateau - riffing off their age-old "beatdown on the spider" schtick and the presence of Arachne Prime there.
I'm beginning to think we need to create a Chaotic, Sphere of Matter monkey-deity who simply messes with Korotiku's mind by dropping phanaton colonies anywhere that aranea or spiderlike beings appear... :D
Thanks for the input on the Nagpa, DM and rip. Ripvanwormer, I agree that we need to keep the libraries of Serraine, so so much for the curse from Dragon.
On the other hand, Serraine may represent a loophole in that curse, as it wanders the world in such a way that the nagpas are able to bring their libraries with them.
So, on the other races...The Dusanu was always made out to be an impressive and fearsome creature in OD&D. But has anyone ever used it? Any cool ideas for an adventure featuring those guys?
Here's something I wrote up a long time ago regarding the Dusanu- Urggrik-Graastok- though I'm not entirely pleased with it any longer.
I always liked those guys, though. The illustration of them in X5 (by Tim Truman, I believe) is amazing.
Just for the record, I agree that it is pretty disappointing how little research the authors did for this race conversion. Also previous Mystara articles have suffered from the fact that the authors overlooked many important sources for the creatures/races converted...
Some of that comes from an accurate assessment of the Dragon editorial philosophy (something that drives even our Forgotten Realms articles), as mentioned by Traianus Decius Aureus:
I think Dragon focused on Make it playable in any campaign, rather than make a faithful conversion for Mystara.
The directive that I received when writing the lupin and diaboli articles was: Go by the Mystara Monstrous Appendix and generalize that even further. I'm sure Sean was given the same directive.
You also have to realize that three non-Mystara fans read everything we put in the magazine. I can't tell you how many times I've inserted Mystara and had it yanked out. I'm obviously going to have to be a little more clever about it. ;)
The directive that I received when writing the lupin and diaboli articles was: Go by the Mystara Monstrous Appendix and generalize that even further. I'm sure Sean was given the same directive.
I kind of suspected something like that given the articles and what they don't mention and what they do mention. Given the wealth of other material that seems like a poor directive. And it's not necessarily a poor directive insofar as it is a directive to generalise the information. I can appreciate why that is being asked for. I think it's a poor directive because the Mystara Monstrous Appendix itself is, I think, a poor document itself to use as a sole source.
You also have to realize that three non-Mystara fans read everything we put in the magazine. I can't tell you how many times I've inserted Mystara and had it yanked out. I'm obviously going to have to be a little more clever about it. ;)
At least you're trying ;)
Actually, I don't mind that the articles will be oriented towards a general audience. That would be inevitable anyway. But I think many of the presentations could be made more interesting if other sources are explored in the future. For instance: If the Tabi had been chosen instead of say the Phanaton, the connection between them and the Nagpa could have been made, the result being a more coherent article rather than just a random selection of creatures.
Ofcourse, not every writer will be familiar with all possible relevant sources. But remember, we are here to help!
Håvard
It's kind of sad though, that even in a Campaign Classics issue, the material has to be genericized. Makes me wonder why they even bother...
I can tell you why. I didn't play in Mystara (I did play in the Known World for a while back when I played B/X D&D), but after reviewing those monsters in #339, I'm looking for ways to add the dusanu to several adventures I'm mulling writing, including an Eberron one. The way I see it is this: Dragon has to cater to a wider audience, so they give us converted stats for 3.5e and some general information on the monster itself. Those of us who are non-Mystara fans can go and use the creature without any trouble, while the Mystara fans, can easily integrate the 3.5e stats with their collection of 2e and B/X D&D materials.
I can tell you why. I didn't play in Mystara (I did play in the Known World for a while back when I played B/X D&D), but after reviewing those monsters in #339, I'm looking for ways to add the dusanu to several adventures I'm mulling writing, including an Eberron one. The way I see it is this: Dragon has to cater to a wider audience, so they give us converted stats for 3.5e and some general information on the monster itself. Those of us who are non-Mystara fans can go and use the creature without any trouble, while the Mystara fans, can easily integrate the 3.5e stats with their collection of 2e and B/X D&D materials.
You have a point ofcourse. Dragon must make an article on Mystara as useful and interesting as possible for all its readers not just those who are fans of Mystara.
The good thing about this is that it will make more people read the article, and some of them might even become curious about the setting, perhaps even curious enough to visit this forum and ask us what its all about.
Another issue though, is how interesting a generic article based on any setting really is. Making creatures, feats, classes etc useful for all kinds of campaigns is one thing, but IMO preserving some of the flavour of the original setting, be it Dark Sun, Spelljammer, Mystara or whatnot makes for a more interesting article IMO. Could these two concepts be combined?
Håvard
You have a point ofcourse. Dragon must make an article on Mystara as useful and interesting as possible for all its readers not just those who are fans of Mystara.
But how generic were the articles on the recent issue on Dragon Kings or Draconians or Dead Planescape Factions for instance. True you can put creatures which are draconians into any campaign world but that article was rather littered with Dragonlance references.
You could then argue that the monster conversions are by their very nature more able to be made generic. But just at a rough glance the Xvart and Suel Lich entries both contain references to Greyhawk whereas the conversions of the Mystaran monsters not only don't contain such references but also contradict other published sources.
Whilst I said earlier I can appreciate that Dragon would want to genericise things even in their Campaign Classics issue it does appear that this is being applied unevenly across the campaign worlds.
You could then argue that the monster conversions are by their very nature more able to be made generic. But just at a rough glance the Xvart and Suel Lich entries both contain references to Greyhawk whereas the conversions of the Mystaran monsters not only don't contain such references but also contradict other published sources.
You're absolutely correct, of course. And this one comes down to author knowledge. I'll brook no attacks on Sean, because he's a friend and outstanding game designer, but he has a definite knowledge bias. Sean knows Greyhawk very well. I suspect his Mystara knowledge is worse than mine, and mine is not great (I like the setting but I'm no expert).
There are a couple other factors that I'm not at liberty to talk about, but that's one of a tripod of reasons why poor Mystara got treated poorly... again.
You're absolutely correct, of course. And this one comes down to author knowledge. I'll brook no attacks on Sean, because he's a friend and outstanding game designer, but he has a definite knowledge bias. Sean knows Greyhawk very well. I suspect his Mystara knowledge is worse than mine, and mine is not great (I like the setting but I'm no expert).
There are a couple other factors that I'm not at liberty to talk about, but that's one of a tripod of reasons why poor Mystara got treated poorly... again.
Don't worry I'm not attacking Sean or advocating that. It is of course the other two legs of the tripod, which of course we can all hypothesise about, which are probably more interesting.
But how generic were the articles on the recent issue on Dragon Kings or Draconians or Dead Planescape Factions for instance. True you can put creatures which are draconians into any campaign world but that article was rather littered with Dragonlance references.
You could then argue that the monster conversions are by their very nature more able to be made generic. But just at a rough glance the Xvart and Suel Lich entries both contain references to Greyhawk whereas the conversions of the Mystaran monsters not only don't contain such references but also contradict other published sources.
Whilst I said earlier I can appreciate that Dragon would want to genericise things even in their Campaign Classics issue it does appear that this is being applied unevenly across the campaign worlds.
Point taken, but I chalked that up to the fact that the article was written by someone who knows a lot about Greyhawk, and appears in a magazine edited by a lot of Greyhawk fans (the Ravenloft monsters also lacked campaign specifics). Another thing, the Dragon King article was written by people affiliated with Athas.org; the Planescape article was written by one of the chief creative people behind the setting; and the Ecology of the Draconian article was written by someone who works for Sovereign Press.
Point taken, but I chalked that up to the fact that the article was written by someone who knows a lot about Greyhawk, and appears in a magazine edited by a lot of Greyhawk fans (the Ravenloft monsters also lacked campaign specifics). Another thing, the Dragon King article was written by people affiliated with Athas.org; the Planescape article was written by one of the chief creative people behind the setting; and the Ecology of the Draconian article was written by someone who works for Sovereign Press.
So then why not get someone in a similar capacity to Mystara to write an article? They even put the call out which some people at least said that they did respond to. Surely all of their ideas couldn't have been that unworkable.
So then why not get someone in a similar capacity to Mystara to write an article? They even put the call out which some people at least said that they did respond to. Surely all of their ideas couldn't have been that unworkable.
*nervous chuckle*
See earlier "tripod" comment. See also
this and this.
See also
this and this.
That makes baby Jesus cry.
Point taken, but I chalked that up to the fact that the article was written by someone who knows a lot about Greyhawk, and appears in a magazine edited by a lot of Greyhawk fans (the Ravenloft monsters also lacked campaign specifics).
I suggest a casual pass through the Greyhawk forum for some "alternative" views on the author's knowledge of Greyhawk.
the Planescape article was written by one of the chief creative people behind the setting;
Monte Lin knows his Planescape, but he's not the same person as Monte Cook.
Here's something I wrote up a long time ago regarding the Dusanu- Urggrik-Graastok- though I'm not entirely pleased with it any longer.
I always liked those guys, though. The illustration of them in X5 (by Tim Truman, I believe) is amazing.
Almost missed this one!
An interesting take on the Dusanu there. I am thinking about making them a bit more Lovecraftian though. Perhaps the fungi are in fact part of a greater entity from the Age of the Outer Beings?
And yes, that X5 illustration is great! (They all were actually).
Håvard
Oops! just remembered that Blackmoor has been licensed out, which may change things. :embarrass
Regards
Gary
Monte Lin knows his Planescape, but he's not the same person as Monte Cook.
D'oh!!! The perils of posting from work without the magazine in front of you.
An interesting take on the Dusanu there. I am thinking about making them a bit more Lovecraftian though. Perhaps the fungi are in fact part of a greater entity from the Age of the Outer Beings?
Hmm... something akin to the "Fungi from Yuggoth?" Sounds like an interesting idea.
If so, you could certainly link them to the mysterious glowing presence from X5- can't think of what it was called offhand, but it was alluded to being some kind of alien (not necessarily space alien, just "alien" to Mystara). Since both the glowing thing (from an early encounter in the module) and the Dusanu both reside in the Black Mountains, perhaps there is some kind of correlation. (The Color from Outer Space and the Fungi from Yuggoth).
I like your take. Going to give it some more thought...