yellowdingo wrote:
Two things:
A Mystaran year is only 336 days. So you need to adjust yearly consumptions rates for that.
A pound of cow, pig, or sheep, requires significantly more to "produce" in terms of grain than if you just turned it into bread. If you account for that differential (which is a thoroughly complex and involved process), you will likely get Marilenev supporting only 1/3 to 1/4 of Specularum's needs. (Which is still quite sufficient.
For the rest of your base assumptions, 25 acres per farm, 10 bushels yield per acre, 1/10th sales price (doesn't the Building It spreadsheet include a default 10x multiplier on everything for adventurers?), 2 loaves equivalent per day, look fine.
How many farms are there per hex? The farm sizes are limited by the rules you are using to between 8-71 acres, the per 56 square mile hex income increasing with the reduced farm size.
Light Wood Hex: 35840 acres - 7100 acres (100 farms, each 71 acres)=28,748 acre of timber per hex. Thats 10 light wood hexes x 100 farms x 5 people per 71 acre farm or 5000 people for all the lightly forested regions of the Marilenev Estate.
Cleared Hex:35,840 acres/2 (half farm, half pasture) (250 farms, each 71 acres). That is 5 cleared hexes x 250 farms x 5 people per farm or 6,250 people for all the cleared hexes (not including the Marilenev Castle & Village or Specularum).
Total in Farm Population=11,250 people
Shall we assume three fields of rotation?
A Single Resource Farm (71 Acre)
According to the D&D Companion rules on Dominions.
5 family members. 3 fields of rotation (each 23 acres) + 2 acres for farmhouse, yard, vegetable garden, A few Hens for eggs, Perhaps even a Pig.
Produce (1 resource: Wheat)
Fallow wheat........................20 bushels per acre
23 acres x 20 bushels = 460 bushels
stubble wheat......................12 bushels per acre
23 acres x 12 bushels = 276 bushels
Total Wheat: 736 bushels/year
Convert to Chaff & Grain
Chaff: 213lbs x 736 bushels=156,768 lbs Chaff
Grain: 50lbs grain x 736 bushels=36,800lbs grain
They require the grain equivelent of 2 loaves per family member per day or 1,680 loaves per year on top of the vegetables they grow in their garden.
Factor in the harvest efficiency of 63%.
Farm Produce at 63% Efficiency
Chaff: 165,768 lbs x 0.63=104,433 lbs Chaff (A 46 ton "haystack" of chaff)
Grain: 36,800 lbs x 0.63= 23,184 lbs
subtract the grain needed by the farm
-seed (46 acres x 60lbs seed grain=2,760lbs seed grain)
-grain for bread (1,151lbs grain)
-grain for 36 gallons home brew light ale (432lbs of grain)
subtotal=4,343 lbs
23,184 lbs - 4,343 lbs= 18,841lbs total grain
According to GAZ 11: 1 bag of grain (weight:40lbs, Value: 7.5 gp base price)
ElderSphinx: You suggest that farmers are getting 10% of that base market value (7.5sp/40lbs bag of grain) if they sell their grain in the city to Merchants.
Single resource Grain Income: (18,841lbs / 40lbs) x 7.5sp= 3,532.6sp (353.26gp)
A two Resource Farm (71 Acre)
According to the D&D Companion rules on Dominions.
5 family members. 3 fields of rotation (each 23 acres) + 2 acres for farmhouse, yard, vegetable garden, A few Hens for eggs, Perhaps even a Pig. Harvesting firewood as part of their right not to have to pay for it like on the one resource farms.
Produce (2 resources:Wheat & Timber)
Fallow wheat........................20 bushels per acre
23 acres x 20 bushels = 460 bushels
stubble wheat......................12 bushels per acre
23 acres x 12 bushels = 276 bushels
Total Wheat: 736 bushels/year
These are two resource Farms because they are also harvesting wood at the rate of 57,496lbs per farm per year.
Convert to Chaff & Grain
Chaff: 213lbs x 736 bushels=156,768 lbs Chaff
Grain: 50lbs grain x 736 bushels=36,800lbs grain
They require the grain equivelent of 2 loaves per family member per day or 1,680 loaves per year on top of the vegetables they grow in their garden.
Factor in the harvest efficiency of 63%.
Farm Produce at 63% Efficiency
Chaff: 165,768 lbs x 0.63=104,433 lbs Chaff (A 46 ton "haystack" of chaff)
Grain: 36,800 lbs x 0.63= 23,184 lbs
subtract the grain needed by the farm
-seed (46 acres x 60lbs seed grain=2,760lbs seed grain)
-grain for bread (1,151lbs grain)
-grain for 36 gallons home brew light ale (432lbs of grain)
subtotal=4,343 lbs
23,184 lbs - 4,343 lbs= 18,841lbs total grain
According to GAZ 11: 1 bag of grain (weight:40lbs, Market Value: 7.5 gp base price)
GAZ 11: 1 Cord of Wood (weight:800lbs wood, Market Value: 50gp)
Wood Income: (57,496lbs/800lbs)x 5gp = 359.35gp
Grain Income: (18,841lbs / 40lbs) x 7.5sp= 3,532.6sp (353.26gp)
Farm resource income=712.61gp
Calculating Total Income
A Single Lightly wooded Hex is producing about 1,884,100 lbs grain & 5,749,600 lbs wood off 100 Farms.
100 farms x 10 hexes x 712.61=712,610gp
A Single Cleared hex (half farms/half open grassland) 4,710,250 lbs grain off 250 farms.
250 farms x 5 hexes x 353.26gp=441,575gp
Total Farm Production Value =1,154,185gp
25% Income Going to the Lady Magda
Wood: 1,437,400lbs, 44,918.75gp (true value: 449,187.5gp)
Grain: 1,648,587lbs, 309,110sp (true value: 309,110gp)
Uses the Grain for Ale, Strong 20lbs/gallon in 9 gallon firkin.
Firkin: 6lbs wood x 183,176 firkin=1,099,056 lbs wood
183,176 firkin x 100gp=18,317,600gp
Selling to the merchants at 10 percent thats 1,831,760gp (1/5th of which goes to Karameikos)
Income to Lady Marilenev: (1,831,760gp)
Ducal tithe 20%=366,352gp
Church Tithe 10%=183,176gp
Remaining Income: 1,282,232gp
Income to Karameikos from Marilenev Estate (farmers, Lady Magda)
Strong Ale: 3,663 firkins (9-gallon barrel) of Strong Ale, 36,630gp (true value: 366,300gp)
Wood: 1,796 Cords (800lbs cord) of Common Wood, 44,918.75gp (true value: 449,187.5gp)
Grain: 41,214 Bags (40lbs bag) of grain, 309,110sp (true value: 309,110gp)
Dukes income from Marilenev: 1,124,597gp
Very good!
Two things:
A Mystaran year is only 336 days. So you need to adjust yearly consumptions rates for that.
Yeah, I realized that somewhat post-facto. 11,000 farmers eat only 7.4 million loaves of bread each year, rather than 8 million. On the other hand, a 336-day year also leaves slightly less time for grain to mature, slightly less time to harvest the fields, et cetera, so the grain output drops as well by some small immeasurable factor. I figured that staying with a 365 day year and hoping all the fudge balances out on both sides was probably the easiest course. =/
A pound of cow, pig, or sheep, requires significantly more to "produce" in terms of grain than if you just turned it into bread. If you account for that differential (which is a thoroughly complex and involved process), you will likely get Marilenev supporting only 1/3 to 1/4 of Specularum's needs. (Which is still quite sufficient.
True. I'm looking less at raw output, more at overall prices - setting the pigs loose on a fallow acre may garner only 200 pounds of pork, rather than 600 pounds of grain, but the pork probably sells for triple what your grain would. Those who have the money to pay for good meat, do so.
For the rest of your base assumptions, 25 acres per farm, 10 bushels yield per acre, 1/10th sales price (doesn't the Building It spreadsheet include a default 10x multiplier on everything for adventurers?), 2 loaves equivalent per day, look fine.
Good to hear. The "1/10th sales price" is more a best guesstimate than any sort of spreadsheet figure - the fact that the farmer is probably selling to the miller who sells to the teamster who sells to the baker who *then* sells to the customer (and even the baker probably isn't even getting the full GAZ8 prices) means that there's no way the farmer is doing all the work or getting all the profit. But I felt everything was pretty solid as a way to fit things together.
Yeah, I realized that somewhat post-facto. 11,000 farmers eat only 7.4 million loaves of bread each year, rather than 8 million. On the other hand, a 336-day year also leaves slightly less time for grain to mature, slightly less time to harvest the fields, et cetera, so the grain output drops as well by some small immeasurable factor. I figured that staying with a 365 day year and hoping all the fudge balances out on both sides was probably the easiest course. =/
Eek!
Good point, I'd forgotten to account for that. It could be one of two things:
1. Everything grows faster
2. Everyone has to work that much harder to ready the fields and finish the harvest.
Either way, I'd agree, leaving it at 365 days probably balances it all out. :P
True. I'm looking less at raw output, more at overall prices - setting the pigs loose on a fallow acre may garner only 200 pounds of pork, rather than 600 pounds of grain, but the pork probably sells for triple what your grain would. Those who have the money to pay for good meat, do so.
That's reasonable. And indeed, I figure it will all balance out with some herder up in the hills around Kelvin who just grows forage and runs a flock of sheep or whatever to market every year. I just wanted to note it for future reference should we wander off into setting up the guy who provides all the steers to haul the plows to keep these farms going. (2-8 per plow, probably 1 plow per 1-4 farms, unless the people are particularly well off.)
Good to hear. The "1/10th sales price" is more a best guesstimate than any sort of spreadsheet figure - the fact that the farmer is probably selling to the miller who sells to the teamster who sells to the baker who *then* sells to the customer (and even the baker probably isn't even getting the full GAZ8 prices) means that there's no way the farmer is doing all the work or getting all the profit. But I felt everything was pretty solid as a way to fit things together.
Is it easier to transport grain or flour? I think grain. So it would be:
farmer -> merchant -> miller -> baker -> customer
For rural consumption, it depends on the local ownership. The miller was (almost?) always a monopoly, but the baking ovens were often one too. So you paid twice to eat your own bread, or you ate porridge. And sometimes you got fined if you did!
And again, yes that's a solid base.
How many farms are there per hex? The farm sizes are limited by the rules you are using to between 8-71 acres, the per 56 square mile hex income increasing with the reduced farm size.
I think that what you may be getting confused with here is that one family can run any size farm. Obviously this can't be true. One of eldersphinx's 'initial assumptions' is that "a single-family farm in a medieval nation covers, on average, 25 acres of land." There may be larger farms but they require more families to operate. There are also variations in the size each 'family farm'; some may be working too hard trying to work too large a land area thus ineffectually working the land, while others may be actually wasting 'human resources' on smaller plots.
Another thing for us to keep in mind is that 100% of the land in the estate is not used - for anything. It is an error to divide the area of land by the population (or vise versa). Eldersphinx has given a suitable total based on an average that levels out all these other variables.
ElderSphinx: You suggest that farmers are getting 10% of that base market value (7.5sp/40lbs bag of grain) if they sell their grain in the city to Merchants.
They don't nessessarily sell it at this price, but it is what they see from it. You could say that the price goes up each step of the way. Handling the grain costs, whether it be to hire labour or to remove human resource from the farm. Just picture all the expenses of processing, transporting, and marketing the grain as the 'missing' value of the grain.
[Added: As eldersphinx had beat me to it...
Good to hear. The "1/10th sales price" is more a best guesstimate than any sort of spreadsheet figure - the fact that the farmer is probably selling to the miller who sells to the teamster who sells to the baker who *then* sells to the customer (and even the baker probably isn't even getting the full GAZ8 prices) means that there's no way the farmer is doing all the work or getting all the profit. But I felt everything was pretty solid as a way to fit things together.
Remember there are many people who make a living supporting the farmers who are not of the farmers. It is also important to remember that these gp values are not all cash but, as eldersphinx notes, 'equivalent'. The RC suggests a fraction close to his or even less as being in coin.
I can appreciate the effort you're putting into this. As long as we work together we may find some interesting answers and I think we've already made a huge step in that direction. I'm definately going to take some more looks at this subject - it really is interesting!
I think that what you may be getting confused with here is that one family can run any size farm. Obviously this can't be true. One of eldersphinx's 'initial assumptions' is that "a single-family farm in a medieval nation covers, on average, 25 acres of land." There may be larger farms but they require more families to operate. There are also variations in the size each 'family farm'; some may be working too hard trying to work too large a land area thus ineffectually working the land, while others may be actually wasting 'human resources' on smaller plots.
Fortunately I was assuming that pre costs profit was spent on the employment of needed labour to help plant and bring in the harvests.
But due to the hammer of objectionists I am forced to offer an alternative using Farm Sizes as defined by the rules on Dominions from the D&D Companion rules. They were opposed to my decision to have larger 86 acre, 172 acre farms as a consequence of agrarian land reforms in Marilenev.
There it is: 250 x 71 acre farms where 56 square mile cleared hexes have a half under farming/half open grasslands (single resource) and light wooded is 100 x 71 acre farms with 1/5th farming and 4/5th covered in light wood (two resource).
To bring all the farms up to two - tree resource types I can probably start running sheep adjacent to grain. That gets an otherwise one resource farm wool, and even dairy (cheese from ewes milk).
But due to the hammer of objectionists I am forced to offer an alternative using Farm Sizes as defined by the rules on Dominions from the D&D Companion rules. They were opposed to my decision to have larger 86 acre, 172 acre farms as a consequence of agrarian land reforms in Marilenev.
That is the second time you have referred to the D&D Companion rules for Dominions.
Having checked those rules, I am unable to find any reference to the size of farms. Not 172 acres, not 86 acres, and not 71 acres.
Can you provide a page reference for this?
I am also unable to find any basis for your "addition" of resources to a Domain. Either the resources are there when designed or they are not. Although no resources are specified for Karameikos as a whole, or Marilenev specifically, there is a general income for Karameikos given in the Gaz.
Can you provide a page reference for this?
Is it easier to transport grain or flour? I think grain. So it would be:
It's easier to transport flour, since you have removed all the bits that aren't going to be used for anything; you can thus pack more value into less space.
It's easier to transport flour, since you have removed all the bits that aren't going to be used for anything; you can thus pack more value into less space.
I wondered if flour was too fine to transport without modern packaging, or would spoil faster than unground grain. And people might want unground grain at the destination for various reasons.
But if flour is simpler, then that's what they'd do.
That is the second time you have referred to the D&D Companion rules for Dominions.
Having checked those rules, I am unable to find any reference to the size of farms. Not 172 acres, not 86 acres, and not 71 acres.
Can you provide a page reference for this?
I am also unable to find any basis for your "addition" of resources to a Domain. Either the resources are there when designed or they are not. Although no resources are specified for Karameikos as a whole, or Marilenev specifically, there is a general income for Karameikos given in the Gaz.
Can you provide a page reference for this?
Dungeon Masters Companion: Book 2, Page 4-5
section 3: Populations
Civilized: 500-5000 families per hex
section 4. Dominion resources
"Select the number of resources in the dominion. For dominions larger than a hex, this may be applied to each hex.
Determining number of Resources
1d10...................#resources
1....................... 1 resource
2-7.................... 2 resource
8-9.................... 3 resource
10..................... 4 resource
Next select the type of resource
Resource Type
1d10..........................resource
1-3.............................Animal
4-8..............................Vegetable
9-10............................Mineral
Animal Resource options
dairy, fat and oil, fish, fowl, furs, herds, bees (honey & wax), horses, ivory
Vegetable options
farm produce, foodstuffs, oil, fodder, wood & timber, paper, wine
mineral options
copper, silver, gold, platinum, iron ,lead, tin, gemstones, tar & oil, clay, stone quarry, coal.
From this you will notice that a single hex can have up to four resource types.
From this you will notice that a single hex can have up to four resource types.
Yes, up to four resources that are determined when the Domain is created, and set thereafter.
And, that is four resources per 24 mile hex, which is 9 of the 8 mile hexes of the Karameikos Gaz map, so each of those hexes is likely to have only 1/8 to 1/2 of a resource if we divide things up.
There is no set farm size, and no provision for adding or developing new resources.
So your calculations are notAccording to the D&D Companion rules on Dominions.
They are a completely new system, based on premises that are being disputed.
I just want to point that out for any readers who might not be familiar with the Companion rules on Dominions.
I wondered if flour was too fine to transport without modern packaging, or would spoil faster than unground grain. And people might want unground grain at the destination for various reasons.
But if flour is simpler, then that's what they'd do.
Flour was often stored in a firkin (small 9 gallon barrel) in high moisture climates.
8 gallons of flour=1.283 cubic feet
9 gallon firkin was often a storage standard for refined materials.
Flour sold as a Quarter of flour would be 64 dry gallons of Flour or 8 firkin.
Sugar and Tobacco were on the otherhand sold as Hogshead (54 gallon) of Sugar or Tobacco of about 15 hundredweight (cwt). These would also represent about eight firkin of sugar or tobacco for storage.
While grain can last for years, flour has a shelf life of months depending on container.
However, when it comes to the grain entry it says, "Grain and Vegetables", just like "Dye and pigments". This makes me believe that those 20 bags are both grain and vegetables. I might even go so far as to suggest that this also represents fruit since they do not appear on the table.
What this makes possible is that the 150 daro value for those 20 bags is not representative of grain solely. Rather, 800 pounds of assorted foods of this nature sold to end-user for 150 daros. According to one of eldersphinx's sources (thank you very much for those, they were very interesting), 500 pounds of grain would keep someone alive at the very basic level. 150 gold pieces a year for food doesn't sound all that bad.
It's a start and I'm continuing to look into this!
Yes, up to four resources that are determined when the Domain is created, and set thereafter.
And, that is four resources per 24 mile hex, which is 9 of the 8 mile hexes of the Karameikos Gaz map, so each of those hexes is likely to have only 1/8 to 1/2 of a resource if we divide things up.
There is no set farm size, and no provision for adding or developing new resources.
So your calculations are notAccording to the D&D Companion rules on Dominions.
They are a completely new system, based on premises that are being disputed.
I just want to point that out for any readers who might not be familiar with the Companion rules on Dominions.
No Where in the rules on dominions does it say the resource quantity, or type is fixed.
On the contrary they are open to change in farm Size, Population Change, and change in resources. Climate change, soil decline, agrarial reforms, new crops, new livestock types, population change: all these things keep a dominion changing.
That means that a 1 resource farm can evolve into 2, 3, 4 resource farms as the knowledge comes available. Wheat, Wheat & fodder, Wheat & fodder & meat. What a resource represents is not always one replacing another but complementing it. A higher density of production.
The whole concept of estate management brought about standard farm sizes. This happened during the crusades when they decided income estates worked best on family farms of about 86 acres. That was the whole reason that about 15,000 Templar knights went to their deaths when the Pope and the King of France decided to carve up the very wealthy estates for themselves.
section 4. Dominion resources
"Select the number of resources in the dominion. For dominions larger than a hex, this may be applied to each hex.
Determining number of Resources
1d10...................#resources
1....................... 1 resource
2-7.................... 2 resource
8-9.................... 3 resource
10..................... 4 resource
From this you will notice that a single hex can have up to four resource types.
If you are going to generate average statistics for everyone to use, then the average results from these charts should be used. Clearly only 10% of hexes will have 4 resources. 60% have two. That should tone the numbers down.
On the contrary they are open to change in farm Size, Population Change, and change in resources. Climate change, soil decline, agrarial reforms, new crops, new livestock types, population change: all these things keep a dominion changing.
That means that a 1 resource farm can evolve into 2, 3, 4 resource farms as the knowledge comes available. Wheat, Wheat & fodder, Wheat & fodder & meat. What a resource represents is not always one replacing another but complementing it. A higher density of production.
Well, not it doesn't. Otherwise there would be rules for that. That is how a rules system works. If you can do something, it gives you a process for doing it.
The Dominion rules are obviously just for a nice simple process of getting income quickly and easily for a domain. It doesn't break things down per family or per person. It doesn't have rules on building new things as Birthright did.
The whole concept of estate management brought about standard farm sizes. This happened during the crusades when they decided income estates worked best on family farms of about 86 acres.
Well, no it didn't.
Farms changed when the Black Plague reduced the population density to the point that people could have bigger farms on the areas already cleared. Further, they changed because those larger areas could not all be worked to produce crops, so there was more pasture land, allowing larger herds, which allowed more fertilizer for the fields, which increased yields.
However, it very much did not bring about standard farm sizes. Farm sizes were determined by the two factors they have always been determined by. For established areas, by the wealth of the individual buying up and developing land. For frontier homstead, by how much an individual could work by himself. Even if someone set up standard plots, within a short time those who were more successful bought up land from those who were less successful, and the standardization disappeared.
If you are going to generate average statistics for everyone to use, then the average results from these charts should be used. Clearly only 10% of hexes will have 4 resources. 60% have two. That should tone the numbers down.
Conceivably yes: But which resource should I choose for that 10% with one resource.
Marilinev has 15 hexes, 10 with timber as a resource possibility.
BUt If I want 1 resource farms I am going to go for that 71 acres of Vinyards that will get my estate the most money. A 71 acre vinyard will get you at 63% efficienecy 565 gallons of wine. even at 10 gp(10% of market value) per 9 gallon barrel, that is 620gp in resource income (a resource income of 5.61gp per month). If I do multiple resource I might as well run vinyards with beehives getting me even more income per farm.
Potentially the number of resources are comparable to civilization tech level.
BUt If I want 1 resource farms I am going to go for that 71 acres of Vinyards that will get my estate the most money. A 71 acre vinyard will get you at 63% efficienecy 565 gallons of wine. even at 10 gp(10% of market value) per 9 gallon barrel, that is 620gp in resource income (a resource income of 5.61gp per month). If I do multiple resource I might as well run vinyards with beehives getting me even more income per farm.
Only if you have the absolute luxury of enough surplus food to switch to an entirely cash crop economy. If you don't, then people are going to stick with growing regular food (cereal grains and vegetables) and not try and convert to setting up vinyards, which can take several years while producing nothing. Not to mention having to develop a quality grape, having the right kind of land for producing wine grapes (most land used for wine grapes is considered poor for other kinds of farming, so wheatfields would be a poor choice to convert to vinyards), the facilities to make and store wine, and the infrastructure to market the surplus.
There is a reason every wheat farmer in the world hasn't switched to producing wine instead. It doesn't matter how much more profitable vinyards are, there are other factors involved.
Well, not it doesn't. Otherwise there would be rules for that. That is how a rules system works. If you can do something, it gives you a process for doing it.
Page 4-DM's Companion book 2
"These notes are guidelines, and the DM is not limited to these ranges."
"The following information is only a guideline."
If the rules do not restrict you from quarrying a mountain and building a Citadel of ten thousand fed on fish and mushroom growing in cisterns then you can do it. But you are at least obliged to calculate how much fish and mushroom you need.
What I enjoy about these "Discussions" over my suggestion for Agricultural production based on produce calculation is that it has gone from criticising the yeilds to criticising the sources of information to criticising me to criticising my refusal to restrict my farms to 20 acres, to further criticism of me, to criticising my interpretation of the rules if I appease.
There is a distinct culture of terrorism and anticreativity on this forum.
Only if you have the absolute luxury of enough surplus food to switch to an entirely cash crop economy. If you don't, then people are going to stick with growing regular food (cereal grains and vegetables) and not try and convert to setting up vinyards, which can take several years while producing nothing. Not to mention having to develop a quality grape, having the right kind of land for producing wine grapes (most land used for wine grapes is considered poor for other kinds of farming, so wheatfields would be a poor choice to convert to vinyards), the facilities to make and store wine, and the infrastructure to market the surplus.
There is a reason every wheat farmer in the world hasn't switched to producing wine instead. It doesn't matter how much more profitable vinyards are, there are other factors involved.
Interesting isnt it Samwise? The only reason farmers waste time on grain is some vain idea that they feed the world and cant use the soil for anything but wheat. Yet the instant you suggest that they build a brewery and convert all their wheat to beer and ale, thus allowing them to get more money so that they can buy the grain they need for bread, cereal, dairy support, wool support, meat support, and make a small fortune from that second and third level of resource...they dont want to know.
It pretty much points that the number of resources levels in use are tied to the technology level of a civilization.
Page 4-DM's Companion book 2
"These notes are guidelines, and the DM is not limited to these ranges."
"The following information is only a guideline."
If the rules do not restrict you from quarrying a mountain and building a Citadel of ten thousand fed on fish and mushroom growing in cisterns then you can do it. But you are at least obliged to calculate how much fish and mushroom you need.
Which means in fact there are no rules for it.
And no, you are not obliged to calculate anything. Nor if you wish to do those rules provide anything that is even close to helpful as a starting point to do so.
[i]What I enjoy about these "Discussions" over my suggestion for Agricultural production based on produce calculation is that it has gone from criticising the yeilds to criticising the sources of information to criticising me to criticising my refusal to restrict my farms to 20 acres, to further criticism of me, to criticising my interpretation of the rules if I appease.
If your yields matched the figures from the research others have done, they wouldn't have questioned them. When they did, and when they presented their view, you responded with insults.
If your farm size matched the figures from the research others have done, again it wouldn't have been questioned. Again, you responded with insults, as well as an appeal to rules which don't exist.
As for interpreting the rules, you have made it clear that you don't like them, and want to completely change them. There is nothing inherently wrong with that, I've done it many times myself. But don't then claim that your variant is in the published rules.
Interesting isnt it Samwise? The only reason farmers waste time on grain is some vain idea that they feed the world and cant use the soil for anything but wheat. Yet the instant you suggest that they build a brewery and convert all their wheat to beer and ale, thus allowing them to get more money so that they can buy the grain they need for bread, cereal, dairy support, wool support, meat support, and make a small fortune from that second and third level of resource...they dont want to know.
That is not the only reason they "waste time" doing it.
There is a limited demand for beer and ale, and past a certain point people will not buy any more. The same with every other resource. If every grain of wheat in the world was converted into vodka, people would not stop eating bread and rush to drink up all the vodka now available.
Nor if everyone suddenly starts raising sheep and stops growing cotton will everyone eagerly embrace wool clothing.
People do want to know. But they also know that economic forces do not permit such wholesale changes in how they use their land because a spreadsheet somewhere says they can theoretically make more money by doing something else.
The miniseries and Book which looks at the reason not every culture advanced at the same rate. They narrowed it to the haves and have nots of large Livestock for use as draft animals. Conceibvably you can run grain without a draft animal, but you cant advance production of grain to a high efficiency without a draft animal.
As it happens, I am a major fan of GGS, and have proposed a number of campaign development and demographics theories based on it for the Greyhawk setting. So I am very familiar with the contents and the conclusions.
And it did NOT narrow it down to large livestock.
It noted several factors, of which large domestic animals for use as draft beasts was one element. It also cited the availability of high yield cereal grains, the ease of travel and communications, the geography of an area, and the occurence and type of diseases, as causes for differences in rates and extent of development.
It pretty much points that the number of resources levels in use are tied to the technology level of a civilization.
Again, it did not.
It pretty much said that the number of resources in use was directly tied to the number of resources available to a civilization, and that the number of resources available would affect the rate of technological development.
And you apparently haven't read Collapse, also by Jared Diamond, where he notes that several people were forced to abandon certain types of high status, high profit, resources in order to maintain a sustainable ecosystem. They cared more about being alive than they did about what was more valuable. Some that didn't wound up disappearing, as they destroyed their environment, and would not switch to alternative food sources and production techniques.
Oh, and you might also find in his books that some people with a stone age level of technology and no draft animals manage a higher population density than most anything short of post-industrial revolution times in the west. So while you can't get cereal grains to the highest efficiency without draft animals, it is in fact possible to get basic food production to an incredibly high level without draft animals, and even without metal technology.
Uses the Grain for Ale, Strong 20lbs/gallon in 9 gallon firkin.
Firkin: 6lbs wood x 183,176 firkin=1,099,056 lbs wood
183,176 firkin x 100gp=18,317,600gp
Selling to the merchants at 10 percent thats 1,831,760gp (1/5th of which goes to Karameikos)
183176 firkins * 9 gallons = 1,648,584 gallons
divide that by 11500 people = 143.36 gallons per year each
multiply that by 8 (pints) and divide by 336 (days in a year)
which is under 3.4 pints per person per day. Which is not enough, the farm families will drink the lot, anyway you'll need an extra couple of pints for each person even before any is sold.
Drinking "water" to an Englishman is a modern novelty.
183176 firkins * 9 gallons = 1,648,584 gallons
divide that by 11500 people = 143.36 gallons per year each
multiply that by 8 (pints) and divide by 336 (days in a year)
which is under 3.4 pints per person per day. Which is not enough, the farm families will drink the lot, anyway you'll need an extra couple of pints for each person even before any is sold.
Drinking "water" to an Englishman is a modern novelty.
Considering Lady Marilenev owns the ale, If a farmer wants a drink, theys going to have to brew it from their income share of grain! The Lady Magda sells her tax Grain and Wood as Ale in a barrel.
Which means in fact there are no rules for it.
And no, you are not obliged to calculate anything. Nor if you wish to do those rules provide anything that is even close to helpful as a starting point to do so.
Page 4-DM's Companion book 2
"These notes are guidelines, and the DM is not limited to these ranges."
"The following information is only a guideline."
Those are the rules regarding the use of rules in the rule book. So there are rules for doing what isnt covered by a rule....These rules!!!
If your yields matched the figures from the research others have done, they wouldn't have questioned them. When they did, and when they presented their view, you responded with insults.
If your farm size matched the figures from the research others have done, again it wouldn't have been questioned. Again, you responded with insults, as well as an appeal to rules which don't exist.
As for interpreting the rules, you have made it clear that you don't like them, and want to completely change them. There is nothing inherently wrong with that, I've done it many times myself. But don't then claim that your variant is in the published rules.
My yeilds do match real research by real agricultural scientists. When everything is running good you get big numbers. As things decline Environmental conditions go crapy, idiot farmers run wheat crop after wheat crop without rotation, you get soil failure and it drops off at the rate off at 2-5% a year. If you grow the wrong crop on the assumption that it grows elsewhere, you get bad crop yeilds or even no crop.
Its amazing that I get this over the desperate need for there not to be medieval crop yeilds of 83% or even 93%. I decided that Marilenev was getting 63%. Not 83% as the best run medieval estates in England or even 93% as southern france. Karameikos is described as as Southern France environment, so at its peak there should be croping as high as 93%. This need for crop yeilds to be 5-10% are unsustainable without there being a reason for it.
The reason crops yeilds were at 5-10% was because everything had gone wrong. In Particular it is due to the Iceage over Medieval Europe which brought Northern England down from about 55% productivity.
That is not the only reason they "waste time" doing it.
There is a limited demand for beer and ale, and past a certain point people will not buy any more. The same with every other resource. If every grain of wheat in the world was converted into vodka, people would not stop eating bread and rush to drink up all the vodka now available.
Nor if everyone suddenly starts raising sheep and stops growing cotton will everyone eagerly embrace wool clothing.
People do want to know. But they also know that economic forces do not permit such wholesale changes in how they use their land because a spreadsheet somewhere says they can theoretically make more money by doing something else.
It is justifiable for Marilenevto shift the estate from surplus food to alcohol Profits because it attacks Karameikos without being open warefare. By dumping surplus food for surplus alcohol Marilenev is justifiably in a position to have lots of money so that when the second marilenev revolt comes, Specularum is dependent on the grain from abroad and surrounding free farmers. Marilenev is verymuch in a position to conduct an economic war with Karameikos rather than one that involves troops. When it comes time for Marilenev to pay its taxes, it can do so in firewood or some resource that cant be stored.
As it happens, I am a major fan of GGS, and have proposed a number of campaign development and demographics theories based on it for the Greyhawk setting. So I am very familiar with the contents and the conclusions.
And it did NOT narrow it down to large livestock.
It noted several factors, of which large domestic animals for use as draft beasts was one element. It also cited the availability of high yield cereal grains, the ease of travel and communications, the geography of an area, and the occurence and type of diseases, as causes for differences in rates and extent of development.
Who would have ever thought that draft capable animals were a Technology resource? Everyone.
Again, it did not.
It pretty much said that the number of resources in use was directly tied to the number of resources available to a civilization, and that the number of resources available would affect the rate of technological development.
It equated resource as a civilization tech level. If you were getting cheese you were feeding a cow (or goat or sheep) to get milk and processing milk for cheese. Perhaps you were getting a second level of tech until you mixed grain crops with dairy and fed fodder and grain to your cow which took you to the third civilization level.
And you apparently haven't read Collapse, also by Jared Diamond, where he notes that several people were forced to abandon certain types of high status, high profit, resources in order to maintain a sustainable ecosystem. They cared more about being alive than they did about what was more valuable. Some that didn't wound up disappearing, as they destroyed their environment, and would not switch to alternative food sources and production techniques.
Oh, and you might also find in his books that some people with a stone age level of technology and no draft animals manage a higher population density than most anything short of post-industrial revolution times in the west. So while you can't get cereal grains to the highest efficiency without draft animals, it is in fact possible to get basic food production to an incredibly high level without draft animals, and even without metal technology.
He simply comes out and says what every one else was saying (they just didn't say it as a conclusion but rather as one of many facts they continue to lumber together). I think it horrorfying that they havnt caught on as to why when a few are onto a good thing and every one else at the bottom packs it in. As to what is sustainable, cities are not. that is why they suck ther otherwise sustainable rural society dry of surplus resources.
As the Scytians found out- Man cannot live on Hashish Alone: When those buggers sobered up to reality they had to invade their neighbors for food cause the system had collapsed.
PS. Thanks for the letter suggesting I was the Source of Terrorism and Anticreativity. I enjoy uncreative contempt from others.
There is a distinct culture of terrorism and anticreativity on this forum.
Of all the statements you have made on this forum, I can authoritatively deny this one! Have you not read any of the other threads? These are the type of things that permeate this forum:
Sorry then, I made a blunder!
You're quite right of course, I completely forgot about...
In any case, that's a beautiful map that you've made.
Some suggestions: ... Hope this helps...
but I'm open to any suggestions...
Count me in, if I can't think of anything useful to add at least I can be a
I look forward to seeing your interpretation of...
Anybody else have thoughts on this?
I would love to here different opinions and comments on this extremely interesting topic.
This is a great idea. I'll adopt it immediately in my campaign...
...it has been really fun putting a little detail into the map as a group effort.
Think we should start a contributive thread...
p.s : If you dont mind, can you please post...
This is a great thread idea!
This thread will be very useful indeed!
With a few ongoing rather interesting and sometimes heated (well, for our friendly little forum that is ) threads, we must...
I was just thinking what the moderators of this forum must be thinking! I wonder if they're thinking of locking this thread or just laughing along with us!
About the moderators, I reckon that they don't bother to read most of our board. Of course I may be wrong, but we're such a friendly community 99% of the time, and from what I've seen there is such a lot of work to be done on other boards on this site...
I must say, I am pleased to see the activity here lately, and am really enjoying some of the perspective that people here bring to Mystara.
...we get more posts per thread, which means probably more interactivity...
hope these bits are interesting enough to spark the discussion
Welcome to our small community.
We must admit we're still a pretty small community here, despite the many posts we're able to make.
Have fun, see you when you get back.
Yeah this weekend was pretty busy here - much busier than usual. I certainly enjoyed everyone's company...
There's enough rules-less discussion and OOP editions topics here to keep me happy though. Also lacking is the "Play 3e or die" attitude I've seen in the Greyhawk and FR forums. Which is a good thing, IMO.
We are a small community, but I think that can be a benefit as much as a weakness. Unlike other online communities, I often feel that we have a real sense of community spirit and belonging here.
Especially, you just need to step out the door into another forum on this very same site and suddenly the tone changes, and people seem to jump on each other at the slightest provocation.
Thanks for your input Marco...
Andrew's right...
This forum is a community. Many of us know each other's names, where where people live, their ages, and mention personal events. I am truely sorry you feel that way.
Page 4-DM's Companion book 2
"These notes are guidelines, and the DM is not limited to these ranges."
"The following information is only a guideline."
Those are the rules regarding the use of rules in the rule book. So there are rules for doing what isnt covered by a rule....These rules!!!
I don't recall seeing any mention of your alternative as the approved option anywhere in there.
My yeilds do match real research by real agricultural scientists. When everything is running good you get big numbers. As things decline Environmental conditions go crapy, idiot farmers run wheat crop after wheat crop without rotation, you get soil failure and it drops off at the rate off at 2-5% a year. If you grow the wrong crop on the assumption that it grows elsewhere, you get bad crop yeilds or even no crop.
Those farmers somehow managed for centuries, discovering the principles of crop rotation, fertilization, and more along the way. They sound pretty intelligent to me.
It is justifiable for Marilenevto shift the estate from surplus food to alcohol Profits because it attacks Karameikos without being open warefare. By dumping surplus food for surplus alcohol Marilenev is justifiably in a position to have lots of money so that when the second marilenev revolt comes, Specularum is dependent on the grain from abroad and surrounding free farmers. Marilenev is verymuch in a position to conduct an economic war with Karameikos rather than one that involves troops. When it comes time for Marilenev to pay its taxes, it can do so in firewood or some resource that cant be stored.
Once again, you are jumping ahead in your assumptions.
First, you assume that no other estate in Karameikos produces food that can be used to supply Specularum.
Second, you assume that King Stefan can't simply interdict Marilenev for a year and let Lady Magda stew in all that hard liquor no merchant can buy.
Third, you assume there is a market for all that alcohol abroad.
Fourth, you assume there is sufficient merchant hull surplus to carry it abroad.
Fifth, you assume that all those workers you keep claiming from Specularum will simply sit back and take it.
Sixth, you assume King Stefan with his massively higher income won't be able to hire enough mercenaries to slaughter Lady Magda, and burn down all the breweries, returning Marilenev to a granary.
Who would have ever thought that draft capable animals were a Technology resource? Everyone.
Well apparently no one, as no one made it such a critical element as Diamond did in GGS.
And you are ignoring that domestic animals contributed two significant elements in Diamond's analysis.
11000 people (gaz 1*). Equals 2200 families averaging 5 people per family (as suggested by the Dominion rules, and it's a good number to use).
(* I've seen this posted by several people but I can't find it for myself. Can someone let me know where it is? It's driving me nuts that I can't find it
)2200 families – 5% (110 families) gives a farming sector of 2090.
I’ve subtracted 5% representing those involved in work other than farming. This is only a guess on my part but I think it's reasonable. And of course, those other families are producing income, just not through farming.
2090 families x 25 acre plots = 52250 acres of farmland.
From what I gathered on the internet, 25 acres is about the average that a family farmed. Obviously this varied, but I’ve also seen that the larger acre farms were not farmed by a single family anyhow. Often a village had a communal plot with each family owning various strips. I also think that there should be a maximum to the size of area a family can properly farm. I haven’t been able to find any numbers regarding this but since 25 acres is generally seen as the average, I am assuming it is around this size. Again it is an average, some families are capable of more, some of less. In addition, the larger farms hired from the smaller farms if necessary so it all balances out.
I should also mention that the farms are not limited so much by the resource of ‘available land’, but by the resource of ‘available workers’.
Using this article, we get the following numbers:
11000 people (gaz 1*). Equals 2200 families averaging 5 people per family (as suggested by the Dominion rules, and it's a good number to use).
(* I've seen this posted by several people but I can't find it for myself. Can someone let me know where it is? It's driving me nuts that I can't find it
Dungeon Master Companion: Book 2, page 4, number 3: Population;
"As an average, each peasant family has 5 members."
(Alternate: Rules Cyclopedia, page 140.)
I’ve subtracted 5% representing those involved in work other than farming. This is only a guess on my part but I think it's reasonable.
It is the correct guess:
Players Companion: Book 1, page 8, Peasant Workers;
"The number of peasants available is determined by the population. As an a average, each peasant family consists of 5 persons; 5% of the peasants are available to serve the ruler."
(Alternative: Rules Cyclopedia Page 139.)
From what I gathered on the internet, 25 acres is about the average that a family farmed. Obviously this varied, but I’ve also seen that the larger acre farms were not farmed by a single family anyhow. Often a village had a communal plot with each family owning various strips.
This size matches the majority of my sources, the main one being Gies & Gies, Life in a Medieval Village.
As for communal plots, a digression:
Medieval farming traditions had two basic forms, the closed field system and the open field system.
The closed field system is what most people think of as a "farm," and is what we use today. Everyone owns their own land, and uses it as they see fit. There might be a common village pasture, but even that might be owned individually.
The open field system is an artifact of mostly northern Europe and England. In it, the fields were all connected, and people owned "strips," typically one furlong in length (how far a team could pull a plow before you needed to rest them by turning them around), and ran the fields cooperatively. It disappeared as more land became available following the Black Plague, and enclosures, the closed field method, became easier to manage, more profitable, and more secure.
Next are some values of a 25 acre farm. They assume that only half of the land is used in one year (two-field system) although again, some may be able to achieve better but is offset by those who struggle and produce less.
In general, I would recommend basing the numbers on a three-field system.
The family must eat some of their share, however, about 500 liters per person at a very basic level which comes to 2500 liters per year. So, 2431.5 – 2500 = … -68.6 liters…they’re starving! Not really, they also consume a portion of the livestock in addition to other gathered foods. In net, I’d say things range from nearly starving to creating a reasonable profit. On average I think there is a very small profit.
Something I've been meaning to add in here:
The labor done for a ruler is most commonly in the form of tending arable land for said ruler. Proportion of demense (the ruler's land) to peasant's land is given as 1 acre of demense to 4 acres of peasant land as an average, ranging to 1 per 3 at times. (As per Gies & Gies above.) Other sources have cited a higher rate, but note that labor would have to be paid for to work it.
So all values for estate food production should be increased by about 1/3.
Further, this labor was almost always partly compensated for by the workers being fed by the ruler during the harvest, often in a very significant manner. So that minor shortfall would usually be made up for by that.
This, surprisingly, balances out rather nicely. Now I just have to find out what Lady Magda does with all that money. Here are some thoughts:
Actually, first would be returns to the people, in the form of food for laborers during harvest. That would reduce part of her surplus to sell for profit.
More would be maintenance as you note
First would be the obvious general expenses of such a large estate. She “lives for most of the year in Specularum”, so I’d say her expenses (both to live in the City and to have others run the estate) are quite high.
The Duke can force her to spend some of the money in ways that she may not want to. For example, the Duke may “insist the nobleman [or Lady Magda] embark on building projects within his [her] territory”.
Well even if he didn't require it, at least some portion would need to go to clearing new lands as the population naturally increases. Otherwise she winds up with smaller farms, or everyone going off to Specularum for better opportunities, and her estate never grows.
That’s all at this point. I’d be very interested in hearing people’s thoughts.
There you go.
Thanks for a very thorough and sane look at the estate economics. In one of Bruce's Dragon articles it is mentioned that pre-industrial agricultural production generally required 80% of the population to farm in order to feed themselves and the other non-farming 20%. Obviously, with magic and druids, this percentage might be flexible in the estate. Addtionally, fishing and hunting could also reduce that number. It is important to remember that most people would not want to farm unless they couldn't do anything else, so I don't think you would see any of that extra 20% farming for profit- they would go into more specialized (but necessary) fields suchs as smithing, carpentry, milling, transport.
Absolutely. What makes Marlinev a little different I think, is that the capital city lies within it's borders (but certainly not within its jurisdiction). Since we don't have 80% of the capital's population in agriculture, the numbers must be made up from surrounding land. That's a very good ratio to know, thanks!
With this, it would seem that if you added the populations of the Marlinev Estate, Specularum, Barony of Vorloi, Estate of Dmitrov, and the surrounding area, we should be able to come up with that 80/20 ratio. Now that I'm looking at the map, I'd bet that those clear lands north of Specularum contain reasonable numbers of small 'open-field' farming comunities scattered about.
I looked in the 1010 Almanac and saw the total population of Karameikos as 350,000 which includes the demi-humans. So 20% of that would give us 70,000 as the total non-agriculture population. That's sounds about on the mark. That ratio could be seen as a indication of price levels of goods. A higher proportion of farmers may show market saturation of basic food products, thus lowering their prices. This would likely force people out of that sector and into a specialization since their shortage demands higher prices. All-in-all, it would vary a small amount either way just to correct itself towards neutral.
As for what I put together for the estate's economics, I'd love to get even deeper into more aspects... Hopefully.
Dungeon Master Companion: Book 2, page 4, number 3: Population;
"As an average, each peasant family has 5 members."
(Alternate: Rules Cyclopedia, page 140.)
Sorry. What I was asking about was the 11,000 population for the estate :D . I don't have the Companion rules but I have the RC to reference.
It is the correct guess:
Players Companion: Book 1, page 8, Peasant Workers;
"The number of peasants available is determined by the population. As an a average, each peasant family consists of 5 persons; 5% of the peasants are available to serve the ruler."
I didn't think that Karameikos used the serf system. Except for convicts of course, everyone is a freeman. However, service to the ruler as part of their taxes can be a sort of substitution for this ("Members of the farmer's family often do work for the local ruler (act as servants, work the nobleman's fields) which counts toward their taxes." gaz 1 pg. 34).
The 5% that I removed are among the specialists that Traianus mentioned. From what I gether from the gaz, they would be considered 'workers' and must pay their taxes in cash (25%), and so wouldn't serve the ruler (unless maybe they were unable to pay their taxes and were forced to! :D )
This size matches the majority of my sources, the main one being Gies & Gies, Life in a Medieval Village.
Your sources were tremedously helpful to me too! Thanks!
In general, I would recommend basing the numbers on a three-field system.
This is something that I've thought about too. I'll do some playing with these results as well. One possiblity is to use a combination method. One of your sources mentioned that farmers often switched between two- and three-field methods in response to the land's yield. Any ideas how to show this? Maybe use 60% land use - between the 50% two-field and 66% three-field?
Something I've been meaning to add in here:
The labor done for a ruler is most commonly in the form of tending arable land for said ruler...
As I said above, I think this is more applicable to a serf-system which Karameikos does not use (Thyatis would, wouldn't they?). However, having said that they can serve the ruler as part of their taxes, so I should show an income for Lady Magda for the land production. It wouldn't be very large though, but certainly significant.
Well even if he didn't require it, at least some portion would need to go to clearing new lands as the population naturally increases. Otherwise she winds up with smaller farms, or everyone going off to Specularum for better opportunities, and her estate never grows.
Very true! I'm hoping to get into her expenses with much more detail.
There you go.
Thanks, Samwise!
Sorry. What I was asking about was the 11,000 population for the estate :D . I don't have the Companion rules but I have the RC to reference.
Oh. :P
Wasn't that from plugging the terrain types into Bruce Heard's Domain spreadsheet?
I didn't think that Karameikos used the serf system. Except for convicts of course, everyone is a freeman. However, service to the ruler as part of their taxes can be a sort of substitution for this ("Members of the farmer's family often do work for the local ruler (act as servants, work the nobleman's fields) which counts toward their taxes." gaz 1 pg. 34).
Labor fees did not only apply to serfs, they also applied to free peasants. They were certainly harsher on serfs, and free peasants often had the resources to pay them off, or, being free, earn money being paid to do them, but there were as many days owed based on how much land you had as whether you were serf or free.
And of course, the switch from labor fees to money fees was a major factor in the transition from a medieval economy to the nascent free market capitalism of the renaissance.
The 5% that I removed are among the specialists that Traianus mentioned. From what I gether from the gaz, they would be considered 'workers' and must pay their taxes in cash (25%), and so wouldn't serve the ruler (unless maybe they were unable to pay their taxes and were forced to! :D )
Well, the 5% servants would be a combination of actual servants (maids and such), peasant administrators, and committed laborers of the ruler's demesne.
Actual specialists would be maybe another 5% on a rural estate, and be the miller, baker, and similar monopoly businesses.
In a town or city of course, most everyone would be such a specialist of one type or other.
Your sources were tremedously helpful to me too! Thanks!
Glad they are of use. As I mentioned, I have an interest in developing a reasonable fantasy model of medieval demographics, a legacy of a group I worked with for awhile, and its mission statement. One of the things I was assigned was research on such things, so I've done a lot of reading on it.
This is something that I've thought about too. I'll do some playing with these results as well. One possiblity is to use a combination method. One of your sources mentioned that farmers often switched between two- and three-field methods in response to the land's yield. Any ideas how to show this? Maybe use 60% land use - between the 50% two-field and 66% three-field?
The main thing is, and always will be, soil fertility, both regeneration from year to year, as well as long term maintenance effects (loss of fertility and soil from erosion caused by deforestation, loss of fertility caused by use of fertilizers and excessive irrigation, and similar element), and availability of support (fertilizer, proper crops, proper tools, and proper techniques).
Working from that, I would suggest sticking with a three-field system as a baseline, and skip worrying about the more dramatic fluctuations a two-field system can lead to.
As I said above, I think this is more applicable to a serf-system which Karameikos does not use (Thyatis would, wouldn't they?). However, having said that they can serve the ruler as part of their taxes, so I should show an income for Lady Magda for the land production. It wouldn't be very large though, but certainly significant.
See above on serfs.
On Thyatis, no. They would use massive Roman-style, slave-run, latifundia, that were exceptionally destructive to the social order (because they destroyed the family farms of Italy and some other provinces), as well as employing a very dehumanizing form of chattel slavery.
Very true! I'm hoping to get into her expenses with much more detail.
If it came to it, I think an analysis of someone more mainstream, like Baron Vorloi, would be more useful. It would provide a baseline reference of someone using his estate to improve himself, rather than just milking it for some doomed scheme for vengeance. Then it could be modified up or down for people lost in the past (Lady Magda), being utterly bold innovators, setting up in a frontier, or whatever else is needed.
[QUOTE}Thanks, Samwise!
I'm happy to contribute.
Sorry, just thought this was a neat internal game-balance mechanism that made some real-world sense.
Well, I'd actually classify it as real-world economics translating well into a balanced game mechanism, but is has the same effect.
As you note, if people are starving, they will plant more barley. If they have the reserves, they will grow enough barley for brewing, and plant the rest as wheat, both to eat and to sell for higher returns.
Danged clever those medieval peasants. No wonder they survived long enough for us to invent the internet so we could spend all this time talking about them. ;)
Wasn't that from plugging the terrain types into Bruce Heard's Domain spreadsheet?
Ahhh! Everyone put ‘(Gaz1)’ beside it so I searched all over the thing trying to find it! So 11,000 is really a ‘fudgeable’ number. Something I was thinking about is the relative populations between the domains there. The town in Vorloi has 7500 people, Dmitrov has 6500, while Marlinev has a wee 900. Do you think these numbers might show any link to the relative total populations of their domain? I wouldn’t say exactly, obviously since Marlinev has more clear land (which shouldn’t be confused with ‘cleared’ land) and is likely more agricultural. Thought it might be worth mentioning though.
And of course, the switch from labor fees to money fees was a major factor in the transition from a medieval economy to the nascent free market capitalism of the renaissance.
I think the Duke has already begun the transition – farmers can pay taxes with a combination of produce and labour, but all other non-nobles (the gaz refers to them as ‘workers’) must pay in cash. Basically, I’m using what the gaz says people pay instead of the Dominion Rules.
Well, the 5% servants would be a combination of actual servants (maids and such), peasant administrators, and committed laborers of the ruler's demesne.
Actual specialists would be maybe another 5% on a rural estate, and be the miller, baker, and similar monopoly businesses.
Do you think it should be increased to 10% ? I’m actually inclined to say that is a bit high for this estate. Marlinev village is described as a farming community and it is only 900 people. 1100 people in other than farming seems too high to me. What do you think?
Working from that, I would suggest sticking with a three-field system as a baseline, and skip worrying about the more dramatic fluctuations a two-field system can lead to.
Ya, I’m definitely going to go through it again using three-field. This will increase food production but I’d like to move some from farming to fishing and hunting (as Traianus suggested earlier)
On Thyatis, no. They would use massive Roman-style, slave-run…
Of course, what was I thinking!
If it came to it, I think an analysis of someone more mainstream, like Baron Vorloi, would be more useful.
I think you’re right. We just have to come up with some population figures. Thoughts anyone?
No wonder they survived long enough for us to invent the internet so we could spend all this time talking about them.
:heehee
Ahhh! Everyone put ‘(Gaz1)’ beside it so I searched all over the thing trying to find it! So 11,000 is really a ‘fudgeable’ number. Something I was thinking about is the relative populations between the domains there. The town in Vorloi has 7500 people, Dmitrov has 6500, while Marlinev has a wee 900. Do you think these numbers might show any link to the relative total populations of their domain? I wouldn’t say exactly, obviously since Marlinev has more clear land (which shouldn’t be confused with ‘cleared’ land) and is likely more agricultural. Thought it might be worth mentioning though.
I think Vorloi is a bit bigger actually.
Part of the problem is that some numbers are for the Domains and some are just for villages or towns in the Domains, so it is a bit confusing.
I think the Duke has already begun the transition – farmers can pay taxes with a combination of produce and labour, but all other non-nobles (the gaz refers to them as ‘workers’) must pay in cash. Basically, I’m using what the gaz says people pay instead of the Dominion Rules.
The whole issue of towns, as opposed to villages, means some people always have to pay in cash. The value of it (10 gp) should remain the same. However, it should be noted that this will make massive amounts of actual coin available. I'll skip the massive digression on real world economics, and just note that it can be equally devastating to game balance.
Do you think it should be increased to 10% ? I’m actually inclined to say that is a bit high for this estate. Marlinev village is described as a farming community and it is only 900 people. 1100 people in other than farming seems too high to me. What do you think?
Well . . . a village should be around 400-600 people, between 80 and 120 households.
It will have, at a minimum, 1 miller, 1 baker, and 1 smith, and 1 administrator. For 80 households, that is 5% in non-farming jobs right there. As a village gets to the larger end of the scale, you will get 2-3 each of millers and bakers, and probably even an extra smith, a dedicated carpenter, and more. So overall, I don't consider those numbers excessive, although they might seem so at first glance.
Ya, I’m definitely going to go through it again using three-field. This will increase food production but I’d like to move some from farming to fishing and hunting (as Traianus suggested earlier)
Fishing in particular should be an element in calculations for Karameikos.
I think you’re right. We just have to come up with some population figures. Thoughts anyone?
Well, barring anything else, just punch it into the domain spreadsheet, and go from there. You can drop the numbers a bit if you like to represent the population not yet having grown to match the full carrying capacity of the land with the new technologies and social order introduced by the Thyatians, but it will still give you a good place to begin.
I think Vorloi is a bit bigger actually.
I agree! That's what I was trying to point out :D .
Part of the problem is that some numbers are for the Domains and some are just for villages or towns in the Domains, so it is a bit confusing.
Oh. I've been assuming that all the figures in "The Communities of Karameikos" section were just the settlement's population. With a total population of about 290,000 (Almanac figure minus the Alfheim refuges) I think they have to be so we can fit a good chunk of this number in the domains. Btw, I'm also looking into allocating the population of Karameikos in much more detail. (I seriously think there's something wrong with me; I'm finding this more interesting than it should be!)
The whole issue of towns, as opposed to villages, means some people always have to pay in cash. The value of it (10 gp) should remain the same.
I've lost you on this one. Why is it 10 gp? Everyone (except farmer's within a domain and noblemen) pay 25% of their earnings to a local ruler or directly to the Duke. Or is that what it works out to as an average?
Well, barring anything else, just punch it into the domain spreadsheet...
I remember trying that spreadsheet from a few years back but I don't have excel and it didn't work. I'm going to try it from scratch with help from you guys.
...with the new technologies and social order introduced by the Thyatians...
I saw yellowdingo mentioning these farming reforms from the Thyatians but I'm not 100% convinced that they have better farming methods. Do you really think they do? I'm thinking that their greater food production may have something to do with all that slave labour. I'm not sure.
I hope to post the results from the three-field system tommorow. It's almost done but had to stop working on it.
Ahhh! Everyone put ‘(Gaz1)’ beside it so I searched all over the thing trying to find it! So 11,000 is really a ‘fudgeable’ number. Something I was thinking about is the relative populations between the domains there. The town in Vorloi has 7500 people, Dmitrov has 6500, while Marlinev has a wee 900. Do you think these numbers might show any link to the relative total populations of their domain? I wouldn’t say exactly, obviously since Marlinev has more clear land (which shouldn’t be confused with ‘cleared’ land) and is likely more agricultural. Thought it might be worth mentioning though.
I suggested a figure of 11,500 for the estate of Marlinev, based on numbers I did many years ago for a campaign starting in AC1000. The numbers were based on Bruce's spreadsheet.
Yes the numbers are ‘fudgeable’, as you have to decide how civilized a region is, what pop. denisty you want within the range given, where the major cities are and how easy it would be to transport food there
Do you think it should be increased to 10% ? I’m actually inclined to say that is a bit high for this estate. Marlinev village is described as a farming community and it is only 900 people. 1100 people in other than farming seems too high to me. What do you think?
For the village I viewed this as the 'old' village round the castle with most of its former population ending up in Specularum.
For Vorloi and Dmitrov my view was that these were reasonable sizes if the areas had been developed, and I had more 25-30 acre farms owned by newcomers (greater pop. denisty)
I've lost you on this one. Why is it 10 gp? Everyone (except farmer's within a domain and noblemen) pay 25% of their earnings to a local ruler or directly to the Duke. Or is that what it works out to as an average?
That's the basic number from the Dominion rules.
10 gp per family in labor equivalent, 1 gp in coin, 1-3 gp in resource coin.
I saw yellowdingo mentioning these farming reforms from the Thyatians but I'm not 100% convinced that they have better farming methods. Do you really think they do? I'm thinking that their greater food production may have something to do with all that slave labour. I'm not sure.
Well, I suspect I'm thinking of something different from him. But, based on the descriptions, I suspect it would include any of the following:
1. Plow with coulter and mouldboard. This allows you to break up heavier soil, and access more land. In our world, it was developed in the Slavic lands and spread west, and was responsible for the jump in population in northern Europe throughout the middle ages.
2. Horse collar. As simple as it sounds, the Traladarans may have been relying solely on oxen. In our world, this came from Asia to the west.
3. Switch from serfs to free men. While it seems odd for Thyatians to free people, we know that is what Stefan did. This change increases productivity all around. In our world, it was based on population density following the Black Plague.
4. Market. While this seems very weird, the simple fact of putting another 25,000+ people in Specularum creates a market that farmers now have an incentive to supply, and so increase production beyond subsistence levels.
5. Watermills. Engineering like this results in a massive multiplication of available labor energy, making it easier to do things like grind grain, cut wood, and more.
I'd have to go looking for more examples when I have more time (late to go game!), but despite modern views, there were significant advances in technology during the middle ages, with many related to agricultural production. Introduce them to Traladara from Thyatis, and Karameikos will experience a significant boom in all types of production.
_________
11000 total population. Equals 2200 families averaging 5 people per family (as suggested by the Dominion rules, and it's a good number to use).
2200 families – 7% (154 families) gives a farming sector of 2046.
I’ve subtracted 7% representing those involved in work other than farming. This also includes those employed by the estate for non-farming duties.
2046 families x 25 acre plots = 51150 acres of farmland.
Each family works an average of 25 acres of tilled soil, in addition to tending some livestock and other side jobs.
Here’s the table again for convenience:
Would this imply that it was invented in Karameikos? Certainly possible. Oh, wait! What about the hin? They would make an excellent candidate for the inventors of this plow! And since Stefan's forming of the Grand Duchy and relations between the region and the Five Shires increasing, it wouldn't be hard to envision the slow spread into Karameikos. What do you think?
Possibly. The cultural and technological elements are so mixed up, it can be hard to tell. I mention it as a significant element in expanding agriculture.
I like the idea that they are relying on oxen. I'd theorize that Daorkin is the leading nation when it comes to using horses (and agriculture techniques in general).
Again, possibly. And again, the horse collar provided a significant advantage in available power.
Again, I look to the Five Shires that makes specific mention of them, as opposed to Thyatis which I don't envision having them. (Why waste money building them when there are plenty of people (i.e. slaves) to do the labour?).
Because water- and wind-mills provide a more concentrated amount of energy. They don't merely do the work of 10 or 20 people, they can do the work of someone 10 or 20 times as strong as one person. And of course there are things slaves can do that such mills cant. A watermill can't till or harvest a field. So you still need a large number of slaves for that. It also opens the way to improved metallurgy, both in developing blast furnaces to make improved iron and light steel, as well as working both.
When Stefan first came to Traladara to form for himself a nation, the Marilenev clan led a revolt against him. Most of the Marilenev men died and the Duke kept a close eye on the great Traladaran families from then on. The Duke then also lured young nobles from Thyatis, but he also gained a good variety of folk, some of whom settled in the area around Specularum claimed as part of the Marilenev Estate to work the now-vacant farms.
We’re all familiar with the ‘big names’ that came with Stefan; von Hendriks, Vorloi, Halaran, Kelvin, etc., but what about the many other minor nobles? With Magda now widowed, and perhaps as a show of ‘good will’ for the other clans to see, Stefan did not strip her of her ancestral lands. But at the same time, to leave her with such a large estate so close to the capital would be dangerous.
Now for what I think may have happened. Stefan gave many of those other Thyatian young nobles the title of ‘Landed Lord/Lady’ and a small fief within the boundaries of Marilenev Estate. If that wasn’t ‘humiliating’ enough to her, she was only given equal title. However, because they are technically subjects of her, they forward taxes of 25% of their revenues to her.
Here are the points from a paragraph under ‘Landed Lord/Lady’ (gaz 1, pg 19) that triggered my thoughts:
1. It’s the lowest rank of landed nobility.
2. Includes a fief which may be as small as a “village and surrounding lands or even no land at all.”
3. “It belongs to the landed lord or lady and all permanent residents upon it (except, theoretically, those of higher rank) are subjects of the landed lord or lady.”
The Duke may have parceled out much of the highest-density, settled areas within the Estate of Marilenev to young nobles and given the once powerful Magda the lowest rank of landed nobility – on par with all these newly landed lords and ladies. Although the Duke did similar things to the other estates and baronies, he didn’t parcel out nearly as much of the ‘good, tax-generating’ areas away from the larger domain as he did with Marilenev. These are certainly grounds for the sentence in her bio that says, “Since then [the Marilenev Rebellion], widowed, stripped of much of her power, and (to her thinking) humiliated by Duke Stefan…”
If this is the case (which it will be IMC ;) ), not only do we create a more complex political structure which is good for creating political intrigue, we spread the wealth generated by tax revenues to more people.
As an example, if Marilenev Estate held within its borders 30 fiefs, and each fief had an average of 50 families on it, we get the following:
1. Each fief covers an area of about 2 – 5 square miles (say 3.5 square miles on average). One square mile equals 640 acres, and if completely utilized (not likely), 25 farming families at 25 acres each. I’ll say 50 families on the average fief.
2. The total area of the estate is roughly 19 hexes equaling 1050 square miles, meaning the fiefs account for only 105 square miles, or 10 % of the land area.
3. 30 fiefs with 50 families each give a total of 7500 people, or 68% of the total population of Marilenev Estate. I think this is justifiable since it is natural for people to cluster around areas of good soil, transportation routes, ease of defense, other resources, etc. and not to spread out evenly.
4. Total food production of the estate = 13,135,320 liters
Produced on fiefs by 1410 farming families = 9,052,200 liters, half for the farmers, half for the lord. (1500 families in total – 90 non-farming families = 1410 farming families on fiefs).
4,526,100 liters = 848,644 gp / 30 fiefs = 28,288 gp for each fief. If I assume that 25% goes to Lady Magda as taxes, this leaves each fief’s nobleman with 21,216 gp each year.
Produced directly on Lady Magda’s lands by 636 farming families = 4,083,120 liters, half for the farmers, half for Lady Magda. (700 families in total – 64 non-farming families = 636 farming families directly under her charge).
2,041,560 liters = 382,793 gp + 212,161 gp (tax received from the fiefs) = 594,954 gp total.
594,954 gp – 20% tax to the Duke = 475,963 gp net income for Lady Magda. (This is down from a whopping 985,354 gp!)
5. The only way the fiefs and Lady Magda can turn these food products into coin is to sell them of course. This kicks in the 5% sales tax which goes directly to the Duke.
The fief’s income drops down to about 20,155 gp each.
Lady Magda’s income drops to about 452,165 gp.
6. The Duke’s income goes down as well as he receives 118,991 gp from income taxes and 55,628 gp from sales tax.
NOTES: These numbers only deal with farming production so other incomes from fishing, forestry, merchants, etc. are not included (although they are minor in this estate). Therefore sales taxes from these other professions are not included in income either.
I also think that it wouldn’t be bad to reduce farming totals by a flat percentage to represent the ‘good’ years and the ‘bad’ years. These numbers are fairly optimal outputs and I don’t think they should be normal. (I live in an area with heavy agriculture and it seems there’s almost always something that happens to hurt the farmers somewhat every year. Not devastating, but it reduces total yield a little.)
Finally, I plan on re-presenting my workings eventually in a 'boiled-down/simplified' form in the future once I finish.
-They reduce Magda's income directly (especially if its only the 20% salt tax)
-While nominally under Magda, they are loyal to the King (and likely would answer to him ultimately). If a crisis threatened, he can expect them to deny Magda troops and food, and they combined would pose a threat that would have to be neutralized before moving on Specularum.
-The lesser nobles help spread Thyatian law, customs and cultural ideas throughout Karameikos. (Think the Romanization of much of Europe)
-To most Traldars outside the area, it looks like the King isn't bent on removing every single Traldar noble.
While not a perfect corollary, William the Conqueror's conquest and subduel of England was grounded in the policy of replacing the native lesser nobility with people who were loyal to them.
One of the things that shows up when examining income is the large amount that Lady Magda receives via taxes. In the three-field system I used above she brings in a sizable 985,354 gp a year! (1,231,692 gp before remitting taxes to the Duke). Expenses have yet to be accounted for but I still see this as a very large amount. While thinking about expense possibilities it occurred to me that there may be another element.
This is, I would say, the primary reason for the majority of the income under the Companion rules being in labor rather than coin.
Now for what I think may have happened. Stefan gave many of those other Thyatian young nobles the title of ‘Landed Lord/Lady’ and a small fief within the boundaries of Marilenev Estate. If that wasn’t ‘humiliating’ enough to her, she was only given equal title. However, because they are technically subjects of her, they forward taxes of 25% of their revenues to her.
Quite possibly. As a note from my personal attempts at political development of a nation, doing such detailing is extremely labor intensive, and is typically given up on for some raw assumptions. But your analysis that follows is quite reasonable.
As an example, if Marilenev Estate held within its borders 30 fiefs, and each fief had an average of 50 families on it, we get the following:
I'd boost the average to 100. (Since that was about the size of your average medieval village, as well as being an actual adminstrative unit.)
5. The only way the fiefs and Lady Magda can turn these food products into coin is to sell them of course. This kicks in the 5% sales tax which goes directly to the Duke.
The fief’s income drops down to about 20,155 gp each.
Lady Magda’s income drops to about 452,165 gp.
Yes indeed, a very critical point.
I also think that it wouldn’t be bad to reduce farming totals by a flat percentage to represent the ‘good’ years and the ‘bad’ years. These numbers are fairly optimal outputs and I don’t think they should be normal. (I live in an area with heavy agriculture and it seems there’s almost always something that happens to hurt the farmers somewhat every year. Not devastating, but it reduces total yield a little.)
I wouldn't drop too much though. I've seen 8 bushels/acre used as a default for wheat with other write ups, so I wouldn't drop below that.
Hugin- I think the idea of "breaking up the estate" by introducing lesser nobles (particularly Thyatian) under Magda is spot on.
Thanks! You gave some good points too!
This is, I would say, the primary reason for the majority of the income under the Companion rules being in labor rather than coin.
I should perhaps be more precise. Coin isn't always used directly. Many times it would be service for product (i.e. paid in food). As you've used, gp equivalent. It's good to point this out.
Quite possibly. As a note from my personal attempts at political development of a nation, doing such detailing is extremely labor intensive, and is typically given up on for some raw assumptions. But your analysis that follows is quite reasonable.
I have no intention to detail it all out! ;) But giving a number of landed lords in an area I can handle. :D
I'd boost the average to 100. (Since that was about the size of your average medieval village, as well as being an actual adminstrative unit.)
(We're still talking families, not individuals, right?) To do this we'd have to do one of two things: either halve the number of fiefs (which I'd rather not do), or increase the population throughout the estate (which I'm not opposed to at all and I'll eventually show why!)
I wouldn't drop too much though. I've seen 8 bushels/acre used as a default for wheat with other write ups, so I wouldn't drop below that.
Really? I've seen that as around the upper limit. I took the averages of the ranges and used those in all my calculations; using that, wheat gives about 7.5 bushels. Mind you, I wasn't going to drop it very much at all. Now that I've said all that though, I don't think I'm going to drop it as a result of the 'BIG PROBLEM'!
THE BIG PROBLEM
Here it is: According to Gaz 11, I've figured the price of grains and vegetables to be about 0.1875 gp per liter (or pound). I've also figured that it takes about 500 liters to feed one person for one year. This works out to 93.75 gp/year, for just one person. The PCs say 'no problem, give me double!', but for normal people this just is not going to work. For example;
A minor official from the Dominion rules makes only 5 gp per month, that's only 60 gp per year! Not enough to buy food, let alone pay any rent or anything else. If you assume that room and board are paid for by the lord, than the true cost of that offical is more like 13 gp per month.
What about those who live in a city? DotE gives a month's modest rent as 50 gp per month! To pay for food and rent, a family of 5 would have to generate wages of about 1600 gp per year, or 1685 gp in goods to sell. This is about 5 gp per day.
1685 gp in a year.
Sales Tax – 85 gp (5% of 1685 gp) leaves 1600 gp
Income Tax – 400 gp (on 1600 gp) leaves 1200 gp
Food – 500 gp (533 lbs/person = 2666 lbs x 0.1875gp = 500 gp) leaves 700 gp
Rent – 600 gp (50 gp x 12 months; DotE book) leaves 100 gp
100 gp left to pay for other things like clothes, tools, etc.
The problem is the need to earn 5 gp in just one day. On top of that, the Dominion Rules (and gaz 1) has a peasant family paying a total of about 12 gp equivalent worth each month. They are paying triple that in my above example.
What this implies now is that to hire someone at about minimum wage costs about 1.7 gp/day (5 gp/family generated by 3 family members gives 1.6666 gp).
Out of curiosity, recalculated everything based on a familiy requiring 2 sp/day earnings to pay for everything. I won't present it all here, but it brought some of these massive amounts of gp into nice little amounts. Some examples:
- Each fief’s nobleman now retains 1207 gp each year.
- Lady Magda’s income drops to about 23,571 gp/year.
- Prices per Bushel: barley = 25 cp, wheat = 68 cp, oats = 54 cp, peas = 68 cp.
Although I'd love to reconcile all the canon material with each other, I don't think I can. Plus, I'm liking the way my new prices are working, which fit better with the Dominion Rules and weapon prices incidentally. Maybe there's something I'm not getting (like professional help!
)(We're still talking families, not individuals, right?) To do this we'd have to do one of two things: either halve the number of fiefs (which I'd rather not do), or increase the population throughout the estate (which I'm not opposed to at all and I'll eventually show why!)
Yes, families. An average of 100 families, about 500 people.
And yes, I know it would halve the number of fiefs.
Really? I've seen that as around the upper limit. I took the averages of the ranges and used those in all my calculations; using that, wheat gives about 7.5 bushels. Mind you, I wasn't going to drop it very much at all. Now that I've said all that though, I don't think I'm going to drop it as a result of the 'BIG PROBLEM'!
Naturally that will always be a major issue, but I think we'd be safe at something between 8 and 10 bushels of wheat per acre.
THE BIG PROBLEM[?QUOTE]
Overall, I'd say take those Gaz trade prices and dump them or redo them completely. They are obviously incompatible with everything else, and are really the best candidate for getting the boot.
As a side note, I will repeat what I said about most of that labor "tax" being in the form of working farmland for the local ruler, and a portion of the harvest from that land being "paid" back to the workers in the form of a daily ration and feast at the endAlthough I'd love to reconcile all the canon material with each other, I don't think I can. Plus, I'm liking the way my new prices are working, which fit better with the Dominion Rules and weapon prices incidentally. Maybe there's something I'm not getting (like professional help!
Heh. The only thing to really "get" is that reality and (enjoyable) game play are two different things, and that sometimes you just have to make it up. It is easy to lose track of those as just a player, or even as just a historical researcher (there's a great comment on such in the DMG II), but as a designer and developer, the difference quickly becomes apparent.
You need enough reality and detail to avoid destroying the sense of immersion, and enough simplicity to avoid destroying the ease of play.
Yes, families. An average of 100 families, about 500 people.
And yes, I know it would halve the number of fiefs.
I may actually just up the population, but I can't work on this until after my exam (changing careers isn't all fun and games!)
Naturally that will always be a major issue, but I think we'd be safe at something between 8 and 10 bushels of wheat per acre.
I couldn't agree more: we could argue stuff til we're blue in the face and it wouldn't produce a thing (except a higher post count to catch Planescape... na, not worth the tension ;) ).
Overall, I'd say take those Gaz trade prices and dump them or redo them completely. They are obviously incompatible with everything else, and are really the best candidate for getting the boot.
As a side note, I will repeat what I said about most of that labor "tax" being in the form of working farmland for the local ruler, and a portion of the harvest from that land being "paid" back to the workers in the form of a daily ration and feast at the end
Yep, I'm dumping the gaz trade prices. And values may always be considered 'gp equivalent'. If the worker (i.e. non-farmer) can't pay taxes in cash, then he can work it off.
Heh. The only thing to really "get" is that reality and (enjoyable) game play are two different things, and that sometimes you just have to make it up. It is easy to lose track of those as just a player, or even as just a historical researcher (there's a great comment on such in the DMG II), but as a designer and developer, the difference quickly becomes apparent.
You need enough reality and detail to avoid destroying the sense of immersion, and enough simplicity to avoid destroying the ease of play.
Again, a very important point. If what I end up with can't be made simplistic than I'm not using it.