In the Prism Pentad, City by the Silt Sea, and RaFoaDK the Sorceror Kings were Dragons before they rebelled against Rajaat. Never made much sense to me that Rajaat changed the colour of the sun by making his champions immortal and giving them the ability to use obsidian orbs. Changing the suns colour by turning the champions into Dragons however.
It seems to me they revised the timeline in 1995 and managed to contradict alot of source material/novels set before this. IMC I think I'll use the dates of the timeline- the cleansing wars started 3500 years ago, the champions betrayed Rajaat 2000 years ago but Rajaat made his champions Dragons. The champions just accelerated Borys transformation at the conclusion of the cleansing wars.
What are some of the other issues people have regarding Rise and Fall?
In the Prism Pentad, City by the Silt Sea, and RaFoaDK the Sorceror Kings were Dragons before they rebelled against Rajaat. Never made much sense to me that Rajaat changed the colour of the sun by making his champions immortal and giving them the ability to use obsidian orbs. Changing the suns colour by turning the champions into Dragons however.
It seems to me they revised the timeline in 1995 and managed to contradict alot of source material/novels set before this. IMC I think I'll use the dates of the timeline- the cleansing wars started 3500 years ago, the champions betrayed Rajaat 2000 years ago but Rajaat made his champions Dragons. The champions just accelerated Borys transformation at the conclusion of the cleansing wars.
I've argued this point countless times, but the majority feels that Rajaat turned his students into Champions first and they later turned themselves into Dragons.
I've argued this point countless times, but the majority feels that Rajaat turned his students into Champions first and they later turned themselves into Dragons.
Well most source material points towards this.
Well most source material points towards this.
Most people feel that the revised box set is the most accurate. However, I feel that it was someone at TSR’s personal interpretation of the events that happened in PP and other source material that was later accepted as canon.
Most people feel that the revised box set is the most accurate. However, I feel that it was someone at TSR’s personal interpretation of the events that happened in PP and other source material that was later accepted as canon.
Athas.org works off the policy that the gaming materials have precidence over the novels. While I personally like several of the elements from Rise and Fall, it is still a novel, and for Athas.org, the gaming materials are given a higher position.
I've argued this point countless times, but the majority feels that Rajaat turned his students into Champions first and they later turned themselves into Dragons.
It's true, Rajaat did turn them into Champions first.
They were all trained in the Way and in magic, tasked with slaying different races during the Cleansing War. They found out Rajaat planned to betray them and give the world back to the Halflings so they imprisoned him in the Black.
They then turned Borys of Ebe into Athas' first dragon to stand guard over Rajaat's prison and set themselves up as the Sorcerer-Kings of the Tablelands.
Once they set themselves up in power, that's when they began their own transformations in secret.
The above is true, where does it say otherwise?
It's true, Rajaat did turn them into Champions first.
They were all trained in the Way and in magic, tasked with slaying different races during the Cleansing War. They found out Rajaat planned to betray them and give the world back to the Halflings so they imprisoned him in the Black.
They then turned Borys of Ebe into Athas' first dragon to stand guard over Rajaat's prison and set themselves up as the Sorcerer-Kings of the Tablelands.
Once they set themselves up in power, that's when they began their own transformations in secret.
The above is true, where does it say otherwise?
Re-read the begining of the thread.
Athas.org works off the policy that the gaming materials have precidence over the novels. While I personally like several of the elements from Rise and Fall, it is still a novel, and for Athas.org, the gaming materials are given a higher position.
I can understand that, but don't necessarily agree with it.
They then turned Borys of Ebe into Athas' first dragon to stand guard over Rajaat's prison and set themselves up as the Sorcerer-Kings of the Tablelands.
Once they set themselves up in power, that's when they began their own transformations in secret.
The above is true, where does it say otherwise?
It says so in Rise and Fall of a Dragon King. And probably in other places also.
I can't be sure about any of this, but I do have the impression the original material and novels suggested that the Champions were xyz, while the revised material said they were abc.
Its all very confusing. I do prefer the infinitely less problematic idea that Rajaat created the Champion process, and the dragon process, and incorporated both when he made his Champions, and that the Dark Lens link is what gave them their templar powers. As such, Champions are dragons from the get go and had "warrior-priests" in their cleansing armies.
I had read every scrap of published DS information and believed all this to be true until I found the Timeline on the internet and said to myself "Wtf?!". Apparently the ideas in the Timeline are supported by the revised material: Borys being the first dragon, rewarding the other Champions by transforming them in dragons also, etc...
IMO Borys' transformation was completed and the seals over Rajaat prison were solidified after Rajaat's fall. They were all already 1st stage dragons, but didn't really understand what they were until Borys was transformed through the combined efforts of the champions and the dark lens. So in a way Borys gifted them. Not with the status of Dragon, but with the knowledge of what the transformation entailed.
Thats more or less how I viewed it. Rajaat brought them to first level of dragonhood when he made them Champions. It wasn't till centuries later that the SKs comprehended what their master had actually done to them.
That's a loaded question. Nyt, where's those notes from Lynn Abbey?
Got'em on my site. Follow the signature.
IMO Borys' transformation was completed and the seals over Rajaat prison were solidified after Rajaat's fall. They were all already 1st stage dragons, but didn't really understand what they were until Borys was transformed through the combined efforts of the champions and the dark lens. So in a way Borys gifted them. Not with the status of Dragon, but with the knowledge of what the transformation entailed.
i agree with this position as well. i always thought that Rajaat had trained his champs in the ways of defiling magic and psionics, then once they had reached the max levels in both, started them on their paths to dragonhood by making them all 1st stage dragons. how else would they have lived so long to perform their respective cleansings? they were the first of their kind, and thus, no other being on athas (save Rajaat) could equal their might both physically, magically or psionically. a 1st stage dragon still appears fairly human, but at this stage they're stronger, tougher, and immortal. it was only after Borys used the lens to reach the 10th stage that they realized the full extent and potential of their power, and have since been slowly working towards acheiving it (ever wary of the final stages animalistic rage and the watchful eye of Borys and the other SK's).
That's a loaded question. Nyt, where's those notes from Lynn Abbey?
Suppose to be on Athas.org somewhere.
Unfortunately I can't look them up because I am at work right now and the firewall blocks that site.
Why didn't any of them say: "hey Borys was just weak and unstable to begin with, but that would surely never happen to me"?
Then again, maybe that is what both Kalid-Ma and Kalak said and they both died from the process...
Which leads me to the next question, why did Borys get to jump from first to final level dragon, but everyone else has to go through a slow progression of levels?
itf
Which leads me to the next question, why did Borys get to jump from first to final level dragon, but everyone else has to go through a slow progression of levels?
itf
Because the champions worked together to elevate him to that stage and used the dark lens (which was later stolen), to channel the sun's energy to fuel the transformation. He took a short cut ;)
Because the champions worked together to elevate him to that stage and used the dark lens (which was later stolen), to channel the sun's energy to fuel the transformation. He took a short cut ;)
...and in game terms this elevation process must have cost a leg and an arm to every Champion present at the ceremony, i.e. 10,000+ XP each.
I am just curious as to why all of the Sorceror Kings / Queens decide that the transformation process would make EVERYONE insane who went through it and then proceed slowly / cautiously with their own transformations?
Then again, maybe that is what both Kalid-Ma and Kalak said and they both died from the process...
Which leads me to the next question, why did Borys get to jump from first to final level dragon, but everyone else has to go through a slow progression of levels?
itf
First, Kalid-ma and Kalak weren't killed by the process, they were killed by others during the process. VERY different.
Second, in my games, the SK's do NOT have to worry about the animalistic stages of the transformation, unless they make a huge jump like others have. In my book, the nature of their Champion transformation has made it so that they naturally progress as Dragons. they still have the same rituals as any other Dragon, but due to something the Rajaat did to them, they do not suffer the animalistic rage that others do.
Of course, none of them know this, and the only one who showed evidence of this fact (Dregoth) was killed by the other SK's just because they thought he might reach that point. Only Rajaat, and maybe Dregoth, fully understand the process. The other Sk's are simply scared of the rage period even though they don't need to be. Yes, they are all big baddies, but fear is a big motivator, especially fear of being the thing instrument of your own destruction and the cause of the loss of over two thousand years of work. They know that other SK's will try to kill them, and they want more than anything else to stay alive.
About RaFoaDK, I love the fluff, but I stick to the fact that Rajaat started them along the path, but that none of the Champions (except maybe Hamanu) had living vortecies until the moment they transformed Boyrs into the Dragon. At this point the vortecies were attracted to the energies that were being unleashed, and they attached themselves to the SK's.
As far as cannon is concerned, I ingnore the current day events of RaFoaDK, but use the past journal of Hamanu as a guide to how a SK thinks and acts. It is my belief that the vast majority of Sk's, while being evil, do not want to be. But with Rajaat imprisoned and threats to their cities, and now Dregoth trying to become a god, they have had to be evil and continue on this path. They were content to be the lesser of two evils. However, I think that each of them has some guilt about what they have done, and would like to find a way to change like Oronis did (even though they currently are unaware of that change). In fact, I would say that Oronis only was able to make that change because of his isolation and the fact that he had no outside threats to his city-state.
anyway, just my 2 bits.
As for the Champions becoming dragons before imprisoning Rajaat and whether any of it's canon, this should clear it up:
The Prism Pentad was released in conjunction with the original boxed set. Modules followed.
In 1995, there was a sourcebook released called Beyond the Prism Pentad, which was the lead-in product to the revised and expanded boxed set. The prism Pentad novels were covered in BtPP's timeline. Prism Pentad is about as canon as it gets.
In the Prism Pentad, Denning had said that the SKs began their metamorphosis into dragonhood after they transformed Borys into the dragon to watch over Rajaat's prison.
AFAIK, they'd also kept their own transformations secret from each other, but they decided to backstab and destroy Dregoth when his transformation was discovered- they didn't want another insane dragon running around.
If Lyn Abbey's novel suggested that they began transformation before imprisoning Rajaat, and I really don't remember, we're talking over 10 years ago here, then it's probably another thing about the book I didn't like back then. A lot of continuity errors, like the Tribe of One series, where the avangion was an elf or half-elf or something like that, when the Dragon Kings HC stated that only humans can become avangions or dragons.
Also IIRC, in Rise and Fall, it said that Nibenay set off into the desert and vanished in the end. I'm not sure if it was suposed to be concurrent with Athas' timeline from back then, but Nibenay was still around running his city in future products.
After I put it down I basically considered that book a 'What If' or 'Infinities' story. I just got the impression that she was on a rushed deadline to get the book out and didn't have much time to research properly.
With a more open mind this time around (easy enough now that 10 years have passed, as you said), and an eye open for the goodies within the novel, you should be able to appreciate it despite the problems.
Currently reading Cinnabar Shadows again after RaFoaDK and Brazen Gambit and the Prism Pentad. I enjoyed the Prism Pentad the 3rd time around since I last read it (98?). The Prism Pentad is very simplistic though. Its interesting to read the PP from 15 years ago and newer Troy Denning novels like Star by Star for the Star Wars line. Lets face it the TSR fiction was aimed at young adults.
In general though I think Lynn Abbey has made attempts to clean up Athas timeline. In most DS source material pre 95 and DS novels they talk of the Sorceror Kings being around for 1000 years. The reports that they are at least 2000 years old were dismissed as confusion as Balic years which divide the Athasian year into 6 month intervals. Only in the revised boxed set do they give Athas a timeline.
I think I prefer the original material/novels in regards to the SKs being Dragons at the start of the wars. I doubt the amount of power required by Rajaat to grant immortality to the SKs was great enough to change the suns colour. Turning them into Dragons however. Also the events depicted in the City by the Silt Sea have Dregoth capturing Giustanial as a early stages Dragon at the start of the cleansing wars- circa 1500 years before Borys was transformed into the Dragon.
For me its easier to ignore a few lines in the official timeline than several novels and alot of source material from 91 - 94/95. Alot of those stories weren't written from the wanderers perspective but from the Sorceror Kings perspective themselves. I can buy the fact that the dates were wrong because the SKs have systimatically erased most literacy and records of the green age from the current era. Even the Prism Pentad leans more towards RaFoaDK than the official timeline. To me all the champions managed to do with the Dark Lens was imprison Rajaat, accelerate Borys transformation and bestow vortices on themselves- they were already Dragons when this event happened.
Prism Pentad still stands out as my favorite though, since it set the stage for the whole setting.
In fact, it was PP that got 5 of my gaming buddies anxious to play. Definitely a good introductory series to the setting.
RAFOADK and the rest of the books in that series were also good for those of us starving for more Dark Sun novels of the time. A pity the novel line didn't get the kind of push that FR and DL received.
I agree with Rhul-Than-Sage and Sysane. Rajaat brought his pupils to the first level of the Dragon Metamorphosis when he made them his Champions. During the Cleansing Wars or shortly after the treason, they realized that this was only a first-step of a more large process. It was only after Borys used the lens to reach the 10th stage that they realized the full extent and potential of their power, and have since been slowly working towards acheiving it.
And, in exchange for their help, Borys used the Dark Lens in his comrades to transform them i nto Sorcerer-Kings, giving them the ability of granting spells to others (the templars). In fact, the Expanded & Revised Setting is very clear in this point.
First, Kalid-ma and Kalak weren't killed by the process, they were killed by others during the process. VERY different.
I think Kalid-Ma was killed once his transforming process finished with a success. Kalid-Ma was killed by Kalak, Hamanu and Borys when he begun rampaging.
F.F.
And, in exchange for their help, Borys used the Dark Lens in his comrades to transform them i nto Sorcerer-Kings, giving them the ability of granting spells to others (the templars). In fact, the Expanded & Revised Setting is very clear in this point.
No, it isn't
.While individual DMs can and should adapt the setting to suit their own desires, the revised boxed set is quite unambiguous. Rajaat imbues his Champions with immortality and the ability to draw energy from living creatures through obsidian orbs. Following the betrayal of Rajaat, Borys begins the transformation of the other Champions into dragons and they transform him fully into the Dragon. The connection of the Champions to the living vortices is a complete accident, brought about by the massive expenditure of power during the transformation rituals. It isn't in exchange or reward for anything and, despite their subsequent ability to grant spells to their templars, the SKs aren't even fully aware of what has actually happened.
Just my two cents ;).
No, it isn't
While individual DMs can and should adapt the setting to suit their own desires, the revised boxed set is quite unambiguous. Rajaat imbues his Champions with immortality and the ability to draw energy from living creatures through obsidian orbs. Following the betrayal of Rajaat, Borys begins the transformation of the other Champions into dragons and they transform him fully into the Dragon. The connection of the Champions to the living vortices is a complete accident, brought about by the massive expenditure of power during the transformation rituals. It isn't in exchange or reward for anything and, despite their subsequent ability to grant spells to their templars, the SKs aren't even fully aware of what has actually happened.
Just my two cents ;).
I'll through in my two cents also. First I'm partial to the idea that Rajaat made them dragons to begin with then they discovered that what they had become was just the first stage of a larger process. The designation Champion was just a title and not a state of being in and of it self.
There are a few paragraphs in the revised storyline in the book that mention the processes and Most of them do not contradict this however near the end of the story in the begining of the book it says
Using the Dark Lens to focus their combined magic and psionic energy, Borys began the transformations of the sorcerer-kings.
So there it is.. and up till that point then writers where doing so good. Earlier They just talk about stages and higher levels of power. To me it made more sense. Now here is what I think they should have stuck with.
Rajaat Discovers magic. ie how to suck energy out of things and use that energy to cast spells.
Rajaat decides to commit massive genocide, he needs someone to do it and that someone needs to be very powerful.
Rajaat discovers that by combining magic and psionics he can create an advanced being. Right now it dosnt have a name but at some point someone decides to call it a dragon. The problem is that it requires vast amounts of energy (1000hd of creatures according to the Dragon Kings book and hes got to do it 15 times.) and apperently only humans can advance high enough or fast enough to undergo the process.
Not having 15000hd of creatures to sacrifice Rajaat uses the Pristine Tower to draw energy directly from the sun permantly draining it. Bam First stage dragons for every one. A first stage dragon happens to be Immortal and can use obsidian orbs to draw energy directly from living things.
Rajaat Hints that there is a level of existance beyond what he had granted them and they can become like gods (There are higher levels of dragonhood.)
Note: The Elemental vortices are a different issue than being a dragon. New dragons don't get them because you apperently have to be harnessing the energy of an entire star to move those suckers around.
This makes a much more smoother and simpler explaination of what happened than having to ad an extra step to the whole process. just my opinion.
So is there any source that mentions the origins of Avangion transformation? I don't think that was fully explained in the Dragon Kings HC, was it?
The revised boxed set indicates Oronis discovered it and shared the info with Nerad and Korungard.
Campaign Setting Expanded, Page 12:
Of these students, he kept watch for powerful mindbenders,
for his ultimate plan required those who could combine psionics with defiling
magic to transform themselves into a new type of being . . . a being of dark power.
Eventually, Rajaat sent all but fifteen of his students away With the naturemanipulating
powers of the Pristine Tower, he turned these fifteen students into his
Champions. Drawing energy from the yellow sun, Rajaat imbued each of his
Champions with immortality and the ability to draw magical energy from living crea-
tures through the use of obsidian orbs. This, combined with their own psionic
powers and defiling magic, would have made them nearly invincible. But Rajaat did
not stop there. He hinted that there was a level of existence beyond that which he
had granted them. “Through sorcery and psionics, you can become as gods!” Rajaat
promised, and his Champions believed him.Campaign Setting Expanded, page 14:
The Age of the Sorcerer-Kings
Approximately 2,000 years before the present day, Borys and most of the Champions
betrayed Rajaat and imprisoned him in the Hollow. In exchange for the help they
provided, Borys gave the Champions that were now loyal to him the following benefits:
First, he allowed each Champion to claim one of the city-states of the Tyr Region
as his or her own domain, elevating each to the title of sorcerer-king. Then he taught
them the process for taking the next step up the ladder of existence: Borys taught the
sorcerer-kings how to become dragon kings.
Using the Dark Lens to focus their combined magic and psionic energy, Borys
began the transformations of the sorcerer-kings. The resulting storm of energy as the
initial metamorphosing spells were cast connected each of the sorcerer-kings to ail of
the elemental planes, thereby creating magical conduits through which elemental
priestly magic could be cast, This magic could not be used by the sorcerer-kings
themselves, but it could be imbued upon their loyal servants, the templars, the
humans who helped in the Cleansing Wars.
Now the sorcerer-king were like gods, but Bbrys did not stop there. “One of us
must complete the full transformation to dragon if the spells holding Rajaat are to
remain in place,” Borys explained. “One of us must become his warden for the rest
of time.,, Borys, of course, was to be that warden. Using the Dark Lens again, the
sorcerer-kings transformed Borys into the Dragon.
The Age of the Sorcerer-Kings began with betrayal and was marked by tyranny
and slavery. The world was turned into a wasteland by the sorcerer-kings’, defiling
magic, and that has been its state through to the present dayThe Dragon Kings, page 10:
Essentially, the seven sorcerer-kings are the first
defilers who matched their great magical skills with
ultimate psionic power. When they attained this
level of magic is unclear though rumors about
their age range into the thousands of years, they are
probably much older than that. On attaining the
first stage toward dragon form, the seven delved
deeper into research to understand what they had
begun.
Each had mysteriously become the focus of unlimited
elemental magic. Though they couldn´t tap this
power themselves, the sorcerer-kings could impart
that power to their followers, the templars.
After this, in my opinion is clear as water:
- That Rajaat began the transformation of his students into Dragons, giving them the first step, and that Champions were not awared of the full extension of the transformation until a lot of time after this.
- That Borys discovered and shared the secret of the other steps of the transformation with his comrades.
- That Borys used the Dark Lens to give his companions the ability of granting spells to their templars, and did it on purpose and not as "an accident" of any kind. "You were bitten by an spider? Sucker! My 12 companions and I were vinculated to a Living Vortex!"
F.F.
F.F.
Arguing this matter without the proper quotes is a nonsense:Campaign Setting Expanded, Page 12:
Of these students, he kept watch for powerful mindbenders,
for his ultimate plan required those who could combine psionics with defiling
magic to transform themselves into a new type of being . . . a being of dark power.
Eventually, Rajaat sent all but fifteen of his students away With the naturemanipulating
powers of the Pristine Tower, he turned these fifteen students into his
Champions. Drawing energy from the yellow sun, Rajaat imbued each of his
Champions with immortality and the ability to draw magical energy from living crea-
tures through the use of obsidian orbs. This, combined with their own psionic
powers and defiling magic, would have made them nearly invincible. But Rajaat did
not stop there. He hinted that there was a level of existence beyond that which he
had granted them. “Through sorcery and psionics, you can become as gods!” Rajaat
promised, and his Champions believed him.
After this, in my opinion is clear as water:
- That Rajaat began the transformation of his students into Dragons, giving them the first step, and that Champions were not awared of the full extension of the transformation until a lot of time after this.
- That Borys discovered and shared the secret of the other steps of the transformation with his comrades.
- That Borys used the Dark Lens to give his companions the ability of granting spells to their templars, and did it on purpose and not as "an accident" of any kind. "You were bitten by an spider? Sucker! My 12 companions and I were vinculated to a Living Vortex!"
F.F.
F.F.
Note that it doesn't actually say Rajaat made them into Dragons though.
"Drawing energy from the yellow sun, Rajaat imbued each of his Champions with immortality and the ability to draw magical energy from living creatures through the use of obsidian orbs".
That's it. Nothing else. Nowhere does it state that he carries out any other transformation besides this one.
He may well have intended to show them the path to dragonhood (his "ultimate plan") and even hinted at it to his Champions, but nowhere does it state that he carries it out. In fact, the suggestion is quite the opposite: dragonhood is "a level of existence beyond that which he had granted them". The only thing he has granted them is immortality and the ability to use obsidian orbs to drain magical energy from living beings. Dragonhood is the next level beyond this.
The actual initial steps of transformation into dragonhood are carried out by Borys: "Borys began the transformations of the sorcerer-kings". Note it says "began", not "continued".
(As an aside, City by the Silt Sea suggests that Dregoth discovered the dragon transformation on his own first, because of the apparent evidence that he was already an early stage dragon when he overthrew Taraskir. Of course, that "evidence" comes in the form of tapestries, inscriptions and the like and so may only be propaganda and not an actual historical record.)
The connection of the SKs to the elemental vortices is most definitely an accident and not on purpose. Again, there is no suggestion anywhere that it was done on purpose - to the contrary, all references make it clear that it was an accidental side-effect of the transfomation process. The partial quotes you cite from Dragon Kings go on to make this clear:
"In actuality, with the casting of their first metamorphosis spells, the sorcerer-kings each attracted the attention of a very powerful and rare creature - a living vortex... a creature they don't even realize exists." (DK p11).
Oh well. This is a pet peeve of mine*, I guess, as I seem to get rather quote-happy every time it comes up. It all seems rather black-and-white to me.
(* Right alongside the "How Many Champions Were There?" issue. But don't start me on that - I've managed to keep my head about that one for ages now... ;) ).
My view is:
A) An accident during a process which occurs thirteen times in a row during thirteen different processes and leaves thirteen identical "side-effects" cannot be an accident.
B) When the purpose of the above proccess is unclear and the thirteen identicals side-effect of the thirteen accidents are indeed highly beneficial for the -supposeddly- victims, it must be seen rationally not as an accident, but as the purpoused effect of the process.
I´m not sure about my current level of english, but I think my points are, at least, two good ones.
F.F.
excerpt from Defilers and Preservers: The Wizards of Athas pg. 35
under paragraph heading "Advanced Beings and Magic"
"...Although the avangion can cast these [10th level] spells without using any sort of focus, dragons must utilize obsidian orbs in their spellcasting. The orb becomes, in essence, the foci or material component necessary for the casting of the [10th level] spell..."
...and under paragraph heading (same page) "Becoming a Dragon" -
"...Once an individual becomes a dragon by reaching 21st level, he is immune to the effects of age and will never die of natural causes..."
i always just assumed that the champions were made into 21st level dragons by Rajaat at the open of the Cleansing Wars...i assumed this when i first read the Dragon Kings sourcebook back in the days. to me, it's what made them incredibly formidable opponents capable of decimating entire races from the face of Athas forever. not to mention giving them the immortal age necessary to undertake such a task.
what i don't understand is WHY NOT 21st level dragons? why should they be JUST powerful psi/mages?
they were the first and only of their kind and SHOULD be feared as inhuman fiends of unholy magical power and might. if they were just really, really, really powerful psionicists/defilers to me that just sort of loses its edge and makes them relatively mundane. i mean, they're THE 15 CHAMPIONS of Rajaat (barring any pontification as to the existence of MORE champions outside the published 16 - including Myron) they should be MORE than just psionic/magical badarses, they should be DRAGONS. even a first stage dragon could wipe his bum with a high level party...but a psi/mage is still just that, a psi/mage...NOT immortal, NOT able to cast 10th level spells, and certainly a CHALLENGE; but not to be as feared as a budding GOD.
just my (final) two cents.
what i don't understand is WHY NOT 21st level dragons? why should they be JUST powerful psi/mages?
Apparently because the last published source stated that they weren't. By that logic, we should all be playing bearded dwarves who worship Sorcerer Kings.
I´m not sure about my current level of english, but I think my points are, at least, two good ones.
F.F.
Your English is fine - your reasoning of the matter at hand is, imho, less so
. Of course, as your own point of view, the above is fine. As an interpretation of the published game material, it is not.A) An accident during a process which occurs thirteen times in a row during thirteen different processes and leaves thirteen identical "side-effects" cannot be an accident.
Yes it can, especially if the one carrying out the process is ignorant of its side-effects. To assume that ignorance of a process' side effects implies a desire for those side effects to take place is wholly mistaken.
We do not even know if the transformation rituals were cast one after the other or simultaneously through the power of the Dark Lens. We are told that the "resulting storm of energy as the initial metamorphosing spells were cast connected each of the sorcerer-kings to all of the elemental planes, thereby creating magical conduits...". Clearly, the connection of the SKs to the vortices is an accidental side effect of the transformation spells. Nowhere does it state that the intention of the process was to attach the SKs to the vortices - we are explicitly told that draconic metamorphosis was the purpose of the process - thus argument A is untenable.
B) When the purpose of the above proccess is unclear and the thirteen identicals side-effect of the thirteen accidents are indeed highly beneficial for the -supposeddly- victims, it must be seen rationally not as an accident, but as the purpoused effect of the process.
The purpose of the above process is not unclear. It is very clear. Borys uses the Dark Lens to begin the transformation of the SKs into dragons. Dragon Kings further makes it clear that this was the intention when it tells us again that it was during the casting of their first metamorphosis spells that the SKs became attached to the vortices.
Moreover, to assume that beneficial side-effects must be intentional and cannot be accidental is not rational at all.
We know from Dragon Kings that the SKs are, even to this day, ignorant of both the existence and function of the living vortices: "The end result was clear, but why this transference of power became possible remains a mystery, even to the sorcerer-kings". There is no way that one can suggest that they intentionally took advantage of a phenomenon of which they were completely ignorant. Therefore, I would suggest that argument B is equally untenable.
(I trust that you don't take my disagreement with your argument personally - I just enjoy a good debate
...)call me crazy, but isn't immortality and the use of obsidian orbs part of the first stage of dragonhood?
(...snip for brevity...)
Well, we're free to adopt and adapt whatever rules and setting elements as we see fit, according to our individual tastes. As far as the published materials go, however, it's laid out pretty clearly for us. Yes, there seems to be an overlap between the powers of a Champion and the powers of a Dragon, but it does not follow that they are one and the same, especially when clear distinctions are made between the two states. Rajaat clearly states that dragonhood lies beyond championhood, and it is equally clearly stated that Borys begins, not continues, the transformation of the SKs into dragons.
Yes, dragons are immortal, as are Champions. Yes, both use obsidian orbs. Dragons, however, use orbs as foci for their epic spells. Champions do not, instead using orbs to drain magical energy from living beings (which they can later use to offset XP costs for epic spells). Dragons can defile life when casting spells, but cannot store its energy in obsidian orbs as Champions can. Champions cannot defile life when casting spells. (As an aside, under 2e rules, dragons only defiled life when casting 10th-level spells - this has changed under 3e to allow them to defile life when casting spells of any level). While there are distinct similarities, there are equally distinct differences.
So, it is pretty much as Sysane says. Except for the daft remark about the Paizo conversion, that is... ;)
overall IMO champions as a class outside dragonhood is rather redundant and greatly reduces the might associated with such a title. i wouldn't argue the existence of other generals or warlords or even "proto-champions" outside the big 15 that were just really powerful psi/mages who had the potential to advance; but those chosen by Rajaat were given the gift of dragonhood because they were his most favored and apt pupils. which is what makes them so special, memorable and unique to Athasian history. furthermore, to me, it also supports the reason why there aren't a ton of other dragons out there, the champs had the luxury of being transformed using the power of the lens but when Rajaat was gone, and the lens hidden away, they had to research the rest of the transformation themselves and that information was HIGHLY regarded and hidden from other magic users. thus it also explains why any other aspiring dragon must research the means for transformation on his/her own and why doing so is such a long and ardous task.
So, it is pretty much as Sysane says. Except for the daft remark about the Paizo conversion, that is... ;)
Sorry, I couldn't resist. :D
I honestly do feel that those involved on the revised box set were a little off with their interpretation of what Rajaat did to the Champions, but hey, its canon now.
Sorry, I couldn't resist. :D
I honestly do feel that those involved on the revised box set were a little off with their interpretation of what Rajaat did to the Champions, but hey, its canon now.
I'd have to agree with you there. The whole DS setting is a mess of contradictions - the revised boxed set does a good job of sorting many of them out, but at the cost of some of the cooler possibilities that had been around up until that point. I personally hated the whole "Rajaat, King Of The Hobbit-Friends" storyline when I first ran across it in the revised set. Oh well, that's canon for you. My own games depart from established canon in a number of radical ways, but my players drop by here from time to time, so I tend to keep those changes under my hat. Still haven't decided whether I want to go with the rhulisti angle, even after all these years. Maybe something cool involving the dhowar would be a better idea. I'd probably find it less silly, at any rate... :D
...i wouldn't argue the existence of other generals or warlords or even "proto-champions" outside the big 15 that were just really powerful psi/mages who had the potential to advance; but those chosen by Rajaat were given the gift of dragonhood because they were his most favored and apt pupils...
This old thread might interest you.
Champion Prototype Thread