What I have really wanted to get stuck into for ages is a revision of the Challenge Ratings and Level Adjustments of the creatures in ToA. Some of these are slightly off (and some are wildly inaccurate) and need amending. Most of the initial CRs and LAs were ball-park figures that would be adjusted after playtesting and feedback. This has worked out fine for some creatures, but some others are still in need of a look.
So, if you have any thoughts or suggestions regarding revisions to the Challenge Ratings or Level Adjustments of the creatures from Terrors of Athas, please post them in this thread or drop me an email. This is one area where accurate playtesting can produce reliable and useful results, so feedback on this topic would be of great use and immediate value to the next release of ToA.
Please also try and give some thought to LA for creatures that would make good cohorts as well - this is one area where the DS setting gives no additional options and I think that including DS-specific cohorts would be a good move.
Wherever possible, please list the rationale for your suggestion, as this helps when assessing any possible revisions to the document. Many thanks!
The Silk Wyrm has a CR of 4, but I when I was running my group through their first few gaming sessions (all level 4 characters) they were almost wiped out and I could have killed two or three of them. IMO this critters CR should be more like 5 or 6. I also think the fly speed of this critter is wrong too- I think it should be at least twice its land movement rate, but right now it equals its base land speed.
Okay, here is the first one that I think needs some increasing.
The Silk Wyrm has a CR of 4, but I when I was running my group through their first few gaming sessions (all level 4 characters) they were almost wiped out and I could have killed two or three of them. IMO this critters CR should be more like 5 or 6. I also think the fly speed of this critter is wrong too- I think it should be at least twice its land movement rate, but right now it equals its base land speed.
Its fly speed is accurate - it was the same as its land speed back in 2e as well. I also had a party of 4 characters (also 4th level) go up against a silk wyrm, but it sounds like they fared better than your group. We had one PC close to death, but the party was able to deal with the creature without losing anyone. Has anyone else had experience with running the silk wyrm?
Its fly speed is accurate - it was the same as its land speed back in 2e as well. I also had a party of 4 characters (also 4th level) go up against a silk wyrm, but it sounds like they fared better than your group. We had one PC close to death, but the party was able to deal with the creature without losing anyone. Has anyone else had experience with running the silk wyrm?
Well it could be an anomaly- my players are constantly complaining that I roll abnormally high with my red killer d20 (I have even come out from behind the DM screen to show them I am not fudging my dice rolls)- but then again I have a player who rolls abnormally low so it all evens out on the standard bell curve
. These women also do not like it when I laugh after I deal a huge critical to their characters, but hey, I gotta have some fun too. But you have to agree that it is a damage dealing machine- on average it will do 18 pts of damage + posion with a single attack that has a better then average chance to hit with that +12 to attack. This is enough to kill or at least take out any psion or wizard with one hit (they will most likely fail their Fort save vs. the posion too). A hit like this will also take at least a third of a healthy fighters hp in one go too.
IMO this critters CR should be more like 5 or 6.
From what I have seen it could probably use at least a bump to CR 5.
Sorry to threadjack slightly, but I could use some help with EL and appropriate CRs...
Open up a new thread on this and I am sure I as well as others will be able to give you some good info.
I just don't want to have this thread hijacked too much.
Thanks.
Open up a new thread on this and I am sure I as well as others will be able to give you some good info.
I just don't want to have this thread hijacked too much.
Sure thing, sorry for intruding on what looks to be a helpful thread for DMs as well as athas.org
The Gaj should probably be CR 7 or have its hit points/hit dice upped to be CR 9. My PCs kiled one at level 4 without to much hassle because of its low hit points. DCs on its psi abilities are about right for CR 9 though. I gave xp as a CR 7 creature.
Guardian orbs have very few hit points for their challenge rating. Haven't actually playtested them though so its an observation rather than testing them.
My 2 Cp.
The elemental Drakes have wonky CR. Without spells or spell resistence they're not that high in CR. Their ACs are also low, and so are their hit points (for CR 15-19 critters).
Yeah. I want to go back through the drakes and re-design them, but not sure that will happen or not. The CR's should at least be adjusted, I agree.
Yeah. I want to go back through the drakes and re-design them, but not sure that will happen or not. The CR's should at least be adjusted, I agree.
Hey- if you are looking to do this drop me a line and I will be more then willing to give you some aid for these beasties
Hey- if you are looking to do this drop me a line and I will be more then willing to give you some aid for these beasties
I might hit you up on that since I am not at all happy with the way they turned out.
I might hit you up on that since I am not at all happy with the way they turned out.
Cool- if you have the info in a word doc shoot it to me and I will start in on it.
Well it could be an anomaly- my players are constantly complaining that I roll abnormally high with my red killer d20 (I have even come out from behind the DM screen to show them I am not fudging my dice rolls)- but then again I have a player who rolls abnormally low so it all evens out on the standard bell curve
But you have to agree that it is a damage dealing machine- on average it will do 18 pts of damage + posion with a single attack that has a better then average chance to hit with that +12 to attack. This is enough to kill or at least take out any psion or wizard with one hit (they will most likely fail their Fort save vs. the posion too). A hit like this will also take at least a third of a healthy fighters hp in one go too.
I think Monte Cook, in one of the last few issues of Dungeon stated that a single monster with a CR appropriate for a four person party (i.e. a CR 4 monster versus a party of four 4th level characters) should last for two rounds of combat. I think that's a handy guideline.
...)For the Drakes I would compare them to a normal MM Dragon. Fire Drake compared to say a Red Dragon of its CR. Bring the AC, hit points, and ability scores up to something similar and lower the CR since they don't have spell resistence or sorceror spells. Tweak HD to fit and viola Elemental Drake (or not
They definately need to be beefed up some that's for sure.
I'm going to try and take a look at these tomorrow and over the weekend depending on when I get the doc from flip since he has ultimate power right now.
I'm look at it in between applying for a new job, heh. Will give me a nice breaker.
I think Monte Cook, in one of the last few issues of Dungeon stated that a single monster with a CR appropriate for a four person party (i.e. a CR 4 monster versus a party of four 4th level characters) should last for two rounds of combat. I think that's a handy guideline.
Hmm, someone else has found out that this is a cool avatar. I had mine first - you should change. :P
I think Dolphins shouldn't have a CR at all, since they should be extinct. The dolphins become curious when the druids come surfing and accidentally get hit by surf boards when they surface to investigate. Or at least, they should become twisted and evil towards all other races due to this molestation caused by the surfers. In that case they are warranted a CR, but an aligment change is necessary. I'd say lawful evil at least. :P
Nevar. Going. To. Happen.
You leave my dolphins alone, you flensing bolt junkie!!
I'll change them when I get permission to include my cactal drake in ToA, and not a moment sooner...
:P
I'll change them when I get permission to include my cactal drake in ToA, and not a moment sooner...
:P
Sweet- would he be called a poke-drake
I'm willing to concede on that. Those dolphins are the most unathasian of all creatures. Give 'em sharp teeth and evil alignment I say. :P
Don't forget the dorsel mounted lazer! ;)
Is it OK to post "revised" creatures here if you have an idea. I have a few regarding the elemental drakes. Also having the blue on the list of acceptable creatures from the Psionics handbook seems odd.
Is it OK to post "revised" creatures here if you have an idea. I have a few regarding the elemental drakes. Also having the blue on the list of acceptable creatures from the Psionics handbook seems odd.
Sure, go ahead and post any suggested revisions here - if it gets too messy, we can start another thread. We are currently discussing the drakes on our in-house mailing list, so any input on that front is bound to be helpful.
Yes, the blue is a slightly odd choice. Don't forget, though, that the "acceptable creatures" are only lists of creatures that (in the humble opinion of the designers) would fit the Athasian feel. The idea is not that they are all automatically present on Athas, just that they could be, depending upon the DM's desires. The blue, for example, might prove useful in a Green Age game, or one featuring Green Age creatures in the modern era through whatever plot device. It's listed as a nudge for the DM's creativity, rather than a suggestion that it should be included regardless. And, as always, the DM is free to add or remove any creatures to or from his game as he sees fit.
Hit Dice 32d12+224 (407hp)
Initiative:+6
Speed: 30 ft, Fly 200 (good)
Armor Class: 37 (-4 size, +2 dex,+ 29 natural) touch 8,flat footed 35
Base Attack: + 32/Grapple+57
Attack:Bite +40 melee (4d6+18*), or tail slap +40 melee (2d6+24*)
Full attack: Bite +40 melee (4d6+18*) and 2 claws +38 melee (2d8+11*) and tail slap +38 melee (2d6+24*)
Space/Reach 20 ft/15 ft
Special Attacks: Improved grab,psionics,swallow whole, whirlwind,
Special Qualities: Darkvsion 60', DR 15/metal,dragon traits,low light vision
Saves: Fort +27 Ref +24 Will +23
Abilities: Str 37, Dex 14, Con 24,Int 7,Wis 13,Cha 12
Skills: Appraise +11, Climb +13, Concentration +22, Hide +8, Intimidate +13, Jump +14, Listen +13,Move Silently +10, Psicraft +9,Search +9,Spot +18,Survival +11
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative,Improved Natural Armor,Iron Will,Flyby Attack,Hover, Lightning Reflexes,Multiattack,Power Attack, Snatch,Wingover,
Enviroment: Mountains
Organistaion: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 19
Treasure: Double Standard
Alignment: Always Neutral
Advancement: 33-50 HD (Colossal)
Level Adjustment:-
* Includes -5 power attack adjustment.
Improved Grab (Ex) To use this ability, an air drake must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can swallow as a free action.
Swallow Whole (Ex): The air drake can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of size Large or smaller size by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent takes 2d8+13 points of crushing damage plus 2d8+6 points of acid damage per round from the air drakes digestive juices. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by dealing 30 points of damage to the air drakes digestive tract (AC 16). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. The air drakes gullet can hold2 Large,8 Medium,32 Small, or 128 Tiny or smaller creatures.
Heres my revised effort.I haven't included its psionics as I wasn't sure how you guys calculated the DCs etc of its psi like abilities. I also didn't include the whirlwind attack as I wasn't sure on the mechanics behind that either. Its slightly ahead of the average CR 19 monster manual dragon in HD and physical ability scores but lacks Int/Wis/Cha, breath weapons, fear radius,spells and probably several other abilities of the true dragons. If anyone has advice on how to present the creature better let me know as I'm not to familar with the boards table functions etc. I may have calculated the saving throws incorrectly as well as Dragons use monk saving throws I used monk 20+monk 12 saves as the base saves.Monsters seem to be an exception on the ELH rules on BAB and saves above level 20/HD. Added a couple of feats, adjusted the skills.