On the one hand, they can obviously deal a lot more damage than the average party. On the other hand, each individual character (and especially the psions and wizards) have low hit points, leading to a greater chance of characters dying (which I really don't like at lower levels, since my players tend to put a lot of effort into them) if I raise the EL too much.
Anyone got some good advice on how to handle the situation? Obviously, I don't want encounters with zero chance of dying, but throwing e.g. CR 6 monsters at them will probably be too deadly. At the same time, I definitely want that gritty Dark Sun feeling, keeping the players on edge and not expecting any quarter. Any help is appreciated
I'm new at DMing, although I was a player in a 3.0 campaign for 3 years and played AD&D for 7-8 years. As such I have a decent grasp of the system, but (surprisingly... ) I've discovered that there are a few areas I have little to no idea of. The sheer amount of knowledge needed and preparation time is a little baffling (doesn't really help that I'm a bit of a perfectionist...). Anywho, my group is slightly abnormal: 7 characters, with stats a bit better than the 'high-powered' point buy system. All the characters are ECL 3. I'm finding it rather hard to set an EL for the party.
On the one hand, they can obviously deal a lot more damage than the average party. On the other hand, each individual character (and especially the psions and wizards) have low hit points, leading to a greater chance of characters dying (which I really don't like at lower levels, since my players tend to put a lot of effort into them) if I raise the EL too much.
Anyone got some good advice on how to handle the situation? Obviously, I don't want encounters with zero chance of dying, but throwing e.g. CR 6 monsters at them will probably be too deadly. At the same time, I definitely want that gritty Dark Sun feeling, keeping the players on edge and not expecting any quarter. Any help is appreciated
As for the "gritty Dark Sun feeling", I would actually recommend that you capture that through methods other than the rules. Use the setting and society to their fullest - bring it home that way. If you throw harder challenges at the PCs, what you will actually do is make them advanec faster and become more powerful in shorter time (assuming that you don't kill them, that is). Higher CRs give more XP, which means faster advancement.
Going back to your question about CRs and ELs, the DMG notes that a party can be expected to deal with 4 encounters of their level in a given day. Furthermore, about 50% of encounters in a given adventure should also match their level, with other encounters ranging from lower than their party level to as much as +5 above their party level.
What this means is that you don't need to remain completely on the nose for the EL of every encounter. It's expected that you will deviate from that standard for fully 50% of the encounters. Which is a way of saying don't sweat it. If you get it right only half the time, you are bang on target ;)
That said, you can get an idea of the average party level of your group. The standard formula assumes a 4-person party. You have 7 PCs, all of ECL 3. Thus, your average party level is just over 5. (3 x 7 = 21; you have 21 levels in your party, divided by a standard group size of 4 gives an average party level of 5.25).
That's not a fool-proof fomula, as the systems break down the further you deviate from the norm. But you should find that your party of 7 PCs of ECL 3 is about the same strength as a party of 4 PCs of ECL 5. There will be certain encounters (chiefly those requiring high skill or save DCs, those with high AC monsters or those with monsters that can deal lots of damage with a single strike) that will be more challenging. The lower levels of individual PCs means that they are less likely to survive such encounters. However, where coordination, cooperation, group numbers and collective skills are a factor, you should be OK around EL 5 for a good 50% of your encounters.
So if there is 7 and they are all 3rd level and have higher than normal stats then you are looking at least at an EL 6 encounter to challenge them going by what Kamelion said as well. If not a bit higher like an EL 7, depending on how much point buy you gave them.
The tables mentioned by Kal are also very useful. Table 3-1 allows you to determine how many creatures of a given CR will make an approriate encounter for a group of a given level (so, if you had a group of average level 6, then a single creature of CR 5, 6 or 7 would be a standard challenge, for example). Table 3-2 shows how you should break the encounters down within an adventure.
As for the "gritty Dark Sun feeling", I would actually recommend that you capture that through methods other than the rules. Use the setting and society to their fullest - bring it home that way.
I guess I explained myself poorly - what I meant was, the players should be nervous about dying, even though I don't particularly like killing off characters they've spent tons of time on and gotten attached to. I've spent insane amounts of time researching all the fluff of DS - personally, I put way more weight on the fluff than on the rules. Particularly since Dark Sun is a world with such a strong and different flavor, accurately portraying this to the players is a big part of making the campaign fascinating (to me). The amounts of hours I've used finding appropriate pictures of mountains, deserts, storms, scrub plains and so on...
Thanks for all the great advice on CR and EL - I've found (and used) tables 3-1 and 3-2, the part I had a problem with was assigining an ok group level. Since the party isn't too good at min/maxing (apart from two guys), I'll probably stay around EL 5-6 at first, so they don't get wiped and go upwards from there ;)
On a side note I've always felt that including some encounters the PC are supposed to run from increases the realism of the world - if they're too stupid to run, they deserve it (but make it rather obvious at first of course) :D
Thanks again, really appreciated, all of you!
You can't tell me that you know people that seriously are like that. If so, you would never find anyone that could do anything noteworthy. You can look at it however you want, but i'm against the 25 standard
Solving the issue presented at hand (because i personally ALWAYS play with higher rolls), i just adjust the encounters to fit so that they are about the same statistics wise
Personally I only use the CR system as an inaccurate guildline. If you really want to know whether you characters can handle an encounter you need to estimate their abilities on the whole and compare them to the challange. There are a lot of things that CR just won't tell you.
Its a very inprecise science, but it gets better with expirience.
These are some of the most important guidelines and considerations.
1. How much damage can the monster do in one round? Is this number larger than the total number of hit points that any character in the party who is likely to be hit by the monster has?
2. How likely is the monster chance of hitting? What is the average damage they would do?
3. How much damage can the party dish out in one round? How does this compare to the hit points of the monster(s)? How long will this encounter probably last?
4. Does the monster have any serious weaknesses that the party can easily exploit? Do members of the party have any serious weaknesses that the monster can exploit? Are either of them smart enough to exploit these weaknesses?
5. Is there a way for the party to escape from this encounter without defeating the challange? Is there a way for the enemy to retreat? How easily would they give up?
Since your dealing with a large group of lower level characters they will tend to do better against larger groups of relatively weak enemies adding up to a CR 7, then they will against a couple of CR 5 monster or a single CR 7 monsters.
Personally I only use the CR system as an inaccurate guildline. If you really want to know whether you characters can handle an encounter you need to estimate their abilities on the whole and compare them to the challange. There are a lot of things that CR just won't tell you.
Its a very inprecise science, but it gets better with expirience.
These are some of the most important guidelines and considerations.
1. How much damage can the monster do in one round? Is this number larger than the total number of hit points that any character in the party who is likely to be hit by the monster has?
2. How likely is the monster chance of hitting? What is the average damage they would do?
3. How much damage can the party dish out in one round? How does this compare to the hit points of the monster(s)? How long will this encounter probably last?
4. Does the monster have any serious weaknesses that the party can easily exploit? Do members of the party have any serious weaknesses that the monster can exploit? Are either of them smart enough to exploit these weaknesses?
5. Is there a way for the party to escape from this encounter without defeating the challange? Is there a way for the enemy to retreat? How easily would they give up?
Excellent post - this is some very sound advice here
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