Taken to an extreme, this would probably be a non combatant scholar, but lets assume that combat training is also included in the education of monks from Known World countries based on european countries. This will allow us to make fewer crunch-type modifications to the class, sticking mainly to fluff-type modifications:
The Western Monks
Unlike their eastern counterparts, western monks are devoted to the Immortals. There are as many Monastic traditions in the Known World as there are Churches, if not more. Western Monks are not so much concerned about inner harmony, as they are concerned with achieving harmony with their pantron immortal. They consider their special abilities gifts from their immortal, a gift that may be lost if they do not remain ascetic. Western Monks are also trained in combat, though not with oriental weapons. The Quarterstaff is their favored weapon, though they can also be deadly with a kick or punch.
Comments?
Håvard
I can see them being a "Friar Tuck" type. If you don't mind tinkering more to make it truly separate from the Oriental Monk- maybe give them a paladin's spell advancement with the cleric's spell list, while modifying the unarmed advancement of the SRD monk so it is less powerful- after all they probably are more brawler (if they fight) than martial artist.
If you have the Book of Exalted Deeds, there is a pacifist class, which may give you some ideas on how to de-emphasize combat and keep the class useful. That book also has a bunch of applicable feats- Vow of Poverty, Vow of Chastity, etc... regardless of how you handle it class-wise.
I'll be interested in where this thread goes.
I suppose we could make a non-combatant western monk class, but I have doubts about how fun it would be to play.
I dont see anyone asking for an eastern style paladin. Not everything has to have an equivalent. Thats part of what makes campaigning in different areas interesting. Why travel to distant locations to meet people with exotic skills if you have that right on your doorstep?
Interesting idea, havard!
I can see them being a "Friar Tuck" type. If you don't mind tinkering more to make it truly separate from the Oriental Monk- maybe give them a paladin's spell advancement with the cleric's spell list, while modifying the unarmed advancement of the SRD monk so it is less powerful- after all they probably are more brawler (if they fight) than martial artist.
If you have the Book of Exalted Deeds, there is a pacifist class, which may give you some ideas on how to de-emphasize combat and keep the class useful. That book also has a bunch of applicable feats- Vow of Poverty, Vow of Chastity, etc... regardless of how you handle it class-wise.
I'll be interested in where this thread goes.
Friar Tuck was exactly what I had in mind for this class! While most Christian Monks were more pacificstically oriented that Tuck, basing the class on him would make it more interesting to players (as Rhialto points out), and I could easily see a justification of it for monastic types of the Known World.
I don't have BoED, but it certainly sounds like that is the book to use for this sort of class. I was thinking not to give them spells, because that would make them too similar to the Cleric, and part of my reason for introducing this class is actually to make the class useful for native Known World characters.
As to why I would want to do this in the first place, I suppose I never cared much for Culture Specific Core classes. I prefer classes like the Fighter and Rogue who easily fit into any culture. Wizards, Sorcerers, Bards and to a certain extent Clerics and Druids work fine too. I'm having more of a problem with Barbarians and Monks, Monks being the toughest to accept.
Håvard
It seems to me that wandering monks of this sort were largely found in the post-Roman/Byzantine Empire era of western Europe (ie, "the Dark Ages") when the more "centralized" center of the orthodox church had moved to eastern Byzantium, and away from its former homes (in Italy and then France). To oversimplify things, as I understand them, these monks were very instrumental in keeping the history and religious practices in societies that were now far removed from their major patron.
In that vein, the sort of monks you describe would probably fit best in areas of similar "religious" discord. Thyatis, with its churches and cults, then, wouldn't be a good fit. Karameikos, at least in its earlier "pre-Stefan" period, might make a good fit- as (perhaps) Thyatian monk/missionaries set up monasteries among the "heathens" of Traladara. Some of those monasteries could exist to this day (perhaps having inspired such monastic movements as the elvish Siswa?)
Another location might be Darokin- it has a long tradition of being a very war torn area, with lots of isolated communities. Monks of this sort (again, probably Thyatian in origins) may have been instrumental in keeping these widespread communities connected and helping to bring a sense of unified identity to them.
Of course, it may be these same sorts of monks that so upset the Glantrians and setting off the 40 Years' War.
The problem, as you mention earlier, is that the line between friar/monks and clerics gets somewhat blurred.
As for locations of known monks in the Known World- there are the monks of Lhamsa (who are probably of Ethengarian origins, and thus "oriental" style), and the monks of Blackrock Island in Minrothad (which might be an "occidental" order of monks.)
Mystara's history is different from the RW in many significant ways. I don't think there's anything wrong with having different monkish orders established around the world with different ethics and beliefs, but all with a common way of training their members and leading their lifestyle...
Friar Tuck is a priest before everything else. He may also have Monk's levels, but that doesn't mean the western monk has to be devoted to some Immortal to be considered a Monk. And also, does this mean that Alphatia, being east of the Sundsvall meridian) qualifies as an Oriental Campaign, while Ochalea (being WEST of the Sundsvall meridian) is instead a Western Campaign? ;) :P
Don't apply the western-eastern tag to Mystara so lightly ;)
IMO there are many different monkish orders: Elven orders, Sindhi orders, Ylari orders, Alphatian orders, OChalean orders, Thyatian orders, Ethengarian orders, tortle orders, etc.. all share the basic idea of training their members both in their body and in their mind, strengthening the soul and muscles together. the religious aspect of the order is something less important and it is not even present in some of these orders (some of them may just be martial leagues where one is trained to become a killing machine serving a certain cause..)
I don't get it: why couldn't there be monks' orders in the KNown World which are exactly similar to the class described in the PHB for 3E? Where do you get the idea that all monks shall have asian features and eastern names?
Mystara's history is different from the RW in many significant ways. I don't think there's anything wrong with having different monkish orders established around the world with different ethics and beliefs, but all with a common way of training their members and leading their lifestyle...
Ideally, I am actually more interested in rewriting the fluff (non-rules text) of the class, and keeping as much as possible of the crunch (rules) for the Monk class to represent some sort of parallell to a west european medieval monk. There are many similarities between asian monks and Christian monastic orders, though it is clear that the 3E Monk class is based on the former.
Friar Tuck is a priest before everything else. He may also have Monk's levels, but that doesn't mean the western monk has to be devoted to some Immortal to be considered a Monk.
When looking for differences (non-rules wise) between western and eastern monks, my idea was that one important difference is that western monks would always be tied to religion. The idea of striving towards inner enlightenment without neccesarily any divine element is a very asian ideal.
And also, does this mean that Alphatia, being east of the Sundsvall meridian) qualifies as an Oriental Campaign, while Ochalea (being WEST of the Sundsvall meridian) is instead a Western Campaign? ;) :P
Hair-splitter! :P
When I'm using the terms Western and Eastern I am referring to R/W Eastern and Western traditions/cultures. Known World countries based on Asian or middle eastern cultures would not concern my search for a Western Monk. Alphatia could go either way really. The countries I am looking at in particular are Thyatis, Karameikos, Darokin and Heldann.
It is possible that Christian Monks (or Mystaran counterparts) would be better modelled as Clerics, although it could be interesting to use the Monk class, since it would make that core class much more playable in campaigns centered around the countries mentioned above. Hugins point that Monks are primarily an academic class is an interesting one.
I dont suggest removing their combat skills however. Although few western monks were seen as fighter types (Friar Tuck being an exception), I think allowing for combat skills, both armed and unarmed would make for an interesting class. However proficiency in oriental weapons would have to go. Their other abilities could still be included IMO as long as the Monks themselves view these as gifts for being in harmony with the immortals as much as with themselves.
Thoughts?
Håvard
I know the info is right, even if the source is wrong, forgive me for being too lazy to look it up--I work for the gov't!
When looking for differences (non-rules wise) between western and eastern monks, my idea was that one important difference is that western monks would always be tied to religion. The idea of striving towards inner enlightenment without neccesarily any divine element is a very asian ideal.
Say what? I'm not aware of any asian monastic groups that are not tied into an asian religion at least as closely as any western monastic group. Different religions, to be sure, and given teh nature of asian religions, not ones that would necessarily even be classified as religions given the traditional narrow definitions, but definitely religions.
Say what? I'm not aware of any asian monastic groups that are not tied into an asian religion at least as closely as any western monastic group. Different religions, to be sure, and given teh nature of asian religions, not ones that would necessarily even be classified as religions given the traditional narrow definitions, but definitely religions.
You are right. Please disregard what I wrote about Eastern Monks not being tied to the religions.
How about this: Western Monks have a significantly different religious philosopy from those described in the Core Rules. Although both gain abilities from rigorous training and an ascetic lifestyle, Western Monks attribute their abilities as much to the grace of their patron deities (Immortals) as to their way of life.
So, how about this...
These "monks" can only use edged weapons, similar to 2E UA cavaliers. They are also restricted to "noble" armour, in a similar fashion. With one specific weapon (as in lose the weapon, you have to make a new one, explain to your monastery why you lost it, go on a quest for forgiveness etc), you get bonuses similar to the traditional monk's unarmed attack. Monks cannot use magical weapons or armour.
With their chosen consecrated (as per their weapon) armour, they get no movement penalty at all. To compensate for not getting the level based AC bonus, they get hit dice as a fighter.
I think this would work for a western monastic group of warriors. Heldannic Knights could definitely take this, as could various smaller hero cult orders, such as Halav.
The whole problem with western monks trained in unarmed martial arts is that, except for Friar Tuck (and Cadfael I think), there just any literary characters that fit the archetype.
I would say the whole problem is that the relationship between the monk/mystic class and actual Buddhist monks, is about as distant as the relationship between actual western (Christian) monks and a typical boxer that happened to also be a monk. That both are found so often in the movies says a good deal about the comparison.
So the question should be less about finding some western literary equivalent, as you noted, you could just go with the paladin, and deciding whether you want to have a bunch of western-style, semi- or quasi-religious types, leaping about, and laying the bare-handed smackdown on people.
Once you get past that, the rest is pretty simple.
Karameikos - doesn't really work
Ylaruam - a valid interpretation of some dervish/sufi groups
Glantri - theres that monastery in the mountains, yes?
Ierendi - the source material is sufficiently silly that anything could be a valid interpretation.
Alfheim - I can certainly imagine some elf groups doing this in a big way, but it certainly wouldn't be the primary cultural tradition for Alfheim. Maybe a fringe Alfheim group, or some other group of elves elsewhere. But not Alfheim as a mainstream group. Alfheim is all about the bow and the sword.
Rockhome - me love axe long time.
Northern Reaches - umm, no.
Shires - You're a halfling, not a ninja. :D
Minrothad - I think any Minrothad campaign would be based more on the mercantile aspects than on fighting, so a warrior monk wouldn't quite mesh in well. Like Ierendi, it would be an appropriate area to place a hidden monastery though.
Thar - You're an orc, not a ninja. :D Of course, trolls fight without weapons, but that's because they are too stupid to use them.
Darokin - cf. Karameikos
Ethengar - possible
Atruaghin - can definitely work
Sind - can definitely work
Empire of Thyatis - definitely in Ochalea, and if the Ochaleans have exported their culture at all, you can bet there'll be a warrior monk group competing in the colloseum. But home grown unarmed warrior monks seem out of character, same as Karameikos and Darokin.
Empire of Alphatia - Big enough that it could appear somewhere. But Alphatian law pretty much limits these guys to second class citizens at best.
Heldannic Freeholds - Unless the native freeholders have established some martial arts schools (knights have presumably disarmed entire communities to enforce control), I can't see anything here.
Norwold - cf. Northern Reaches
All the above of course goes out of the window if you want to change any region drastically from the source material.
Ylaruam - a valid interpretation of some dervish/sufi groups
Although I would have to ask whether the followers of Al Kalim would tolerate such practices?
Glantri - theres that monastery in the mountains, yes?
Lycanthrope mystics sound fun
Ierendi - the source material is sufficiently silly that anything could be a valid interpretation.
Isn't there one officially placed there in the Gaz?
Northern Reaches - umm, no.
You can't see a shamanistic, bezerker style mystic fighter?
Ethengar - possible
This is one that really doesn't work for me. These guys are warriot horsemen with an entirely nomadic tradition; a monastery doesn't really fit with that.
Atruaghin - can definitely work
Again, I don't see this. How?
Empire of Thyatis - definitely in Ochalea, and if the Ochaleans have exported their culture at all, you can bet there'll be a warrior monk group competing in the colloseum. But home grown unarmed warrior monks seem out of character, same as Karameikos and Darokin.
I would see mystics in Thyatis as particular warrior orders, which are pretty much okay in Thyatis. I've got one in Hattias in my campaign.
Empire of Alphatia - Big enough that it could appear somewhere. But Alphatian law pretty much limits these guys to second class citizens at best.
But being second class (gentry) is much better than being third class (commoner). A well run, established monastery would be able to put investments in a characters name such that its members would gain that rank in Alphatia. And a mobile, unarmed, unarmoured fighter (looks rather like a mage!) would be very, very useful in Alphatia.
We cannot say "I wanna create a Western type Monk to fit in Darokin or Karameikos", because Darokin and Karameikos are not the same as England or France or America in RW. They've got a different history, society and above all religious habits.
That's why I'm telling you leave that "Western vs Eastern" tag out of the discussion, and start labelling the monk using typical Mystaran areas or cultures. The Monk figure should be stripped down to the essential basics that all monks (as per PHB Class) share:
1. they follow the philosophy of "mens sana in corpore sano" (which afaik is a typical Roman idea that was also shared by the Greeks and by the Chinese), so they train their body and mind to become keener and more resistent to assaults on their body and soul.
2. they are literate and follow the philosophy of "food for the body, food for the mind". They are trained to be healthy through a balanced nourishment as well as to be knowledgeable of the ways of the world around them. They study nature and philosophy, history and religion, in order to achieve an inner balance with the Multiverse.
3. they are very attached to their ethics and to the common philosophy of their order, which is always LAWFUL. If they stray from this path, they consider themselves unworthy and strive to gain forgiveness and cleanse their own conscience.
I do think these three points are common enough to ALL mystic orders in the KW to form the backbones of the class.
THEN each culture creates a certain shape and skin to wrap onto this canvas and originates different Mystic Orders of Monks, tied to a specific race, region or belief.
So it's interesting to see how the Alasyian Dervish may be a Monk tied to the worship and study of nature and natural balance, while the Elven Monk is without doubt the essence of the elvish philosophy which values peace, harmony and imitation of the natural ways (can you imagine different fighting techniques for the elves based on natural elements, like the Falling Leaf or the Hungry Wolf ? ;) )
So I would say that the Monks' orders can always be linked to some kind of philosophy (religious or ethical) depending on the region where it originates. Take for example the Glantrian monks of Lhamsa: they live in a country where it is forbidden to worship immortals, so their tradition probably comes from the more "mystical" group of Glantrians, the Ethengarians of Singhabad. These monks strive to achieve oneness with the universe and nature, to unveil the mystery of the Rad, and certainly do not go around preaching the deities (even if some of them MAY be followers of the Ethengarian immortals Tubak or Yamuga).
What I want to stress is IMO that Monks Orders are certainly not orders of clerics fighting barehanded (also because monks CAN use appropriate weapons - remember, we're not talking about the origin of Asian monks here)! :P Monks are monks, clerics are something else. And Heldannic KNights are NOT Monks. We may have Heldannic Monks, but that's another thing :embarrass
What I want to stress is IMO that Monks Orders are certainly not orders of clerics fighting barehanded (also because monks CAN use appropriate weapons - remember, we're not talking about the origin of Asian monks here)!
Well, that's pretty variable. In real world, unarmed fighting is only a complement to armed fighting -- most martial arts usually associated with "monks" actually teach weapons, not necessarily those that D&D associates with monks.
Even in Chinese fantasy literature, monks do use weapons, including swords.
On the other hand, highly effective unarmed fighters are cool to play, and are part of the fantasy genre.
To get back specifically to Mystara, the Fighting Monk and the Mystic were both described as types of (mostly) unarmed fighters -- and, by the way, the Fighting Monk is actually a cleric, while the Mystic is almost a fighter/thief.
So, IMO there are two or three different points of view to consider:
1) "Monk" as in follower of a monastic/cloistered order
2) "Monk" as in (unarmed) martial artist
3) "Monk" as in seeker of enlightenment
Not all people living in monasteries need to be martial experts, and not all martial experts need to live in monasteries. The same goes for seekers of enlightenment, unless you decide that enlightenment brings as a natural consequence an increased effectiveness in unarmed combat.
Back to the point, we can find "monks" that fulfill all three requirements in Sind and in Lhamsa (BTW, there's little evidence of martial artists or monks in Ethengar, so Lhamsan mystics are likely to be influenced by Sindhi mystics), which makes the the status of the Known World quite different from Middle Age or Renaissance Europe -- there are sources of martial arts lore at Darokin's doorstep, for example.
On the other hand, monastic orders as in the european history will have developed as well -- Heldannic Knights are indeed monks, in this sense, but the two are likely to be totally different, both in terms of abilities and in terms of reputation.
Finally, here is a repost of an old MML message listing canon references to Martial Arts. Now that I'm thinking of it, the Siswa from Rahasia do have some monastic traits, though I don't think there was any mention of them being especially trained in unarmed fighting (or any type of fighting at all, actually).
Here is a list of the canon references to Martial Arts (not only unarmed) in Mystara:
Mystic Order of Saffron Glantri GAZ3
*Ten Thousand Fists of the Khan Ethengar GAZ3
*Torasta Bellayne SCS
Dervishes Ylaruam GAZ2
Fakirs Sind, Ylaruam CoM
Keis Sind CoM
Jashpurdhanas Sind CoM
Shehids Sind CoM
Svamins Sind CoM
Yogins Sind CoM
*Yellow Orkian Martial Arts Yellow Orkia GAZ10
Shadow Elves Martial Arts SE Territories GAZ14
Dominguez Fencing School Torreón SCS
Cavalcante Fencing School Vilaverde SCS
Moncorvo Fencing School Texeiras SCS
Verdegild Fencing School Eusdria SCS
Darokin Rapier Fighting Darokin GAZ11
Thyatian Gladiators Thyatis DotE
*Shar-Pei Polearm Fighting Ochalea DM237
I've added a '*' before those martial arts or groups that can be related to Chinese and Japanese MA.
Specifically, Rakasta MA should parallel RW Japanese MA, while Ochalean MA would match Chinese MA.
Yellow Orks and Ethengar are culturally related and generally Asian (specifically, Mongolian).
Regarding the militancy aspect, there are three possible flavours:
- pacifist. No one seems to be seriously discussing these as a player class. It would be entirely appropriate for these to exist almost everywhere any significant level of urbanisation has developed - as NPCs.
- unarmed. This is the stereotypical image for 'oriental' mystic/monk classes. They do of course use weapons when useful, but they get real training in unarmed styles, and the rules generally favour unarmed combat at higher levels.
- armed. This is the typical role for western style militant knightly orders (ie militant monks). The classic example in the real world is the knights of st John. I'd place the Heldannic knights in this group too. While they may have varying abilities in brawling, unarmed combat is seen as a last resort approach with these groups.
The final variable is the cause that is served. Possibilities that have been discussed are listed below. Of these, I'm not sure the two last items should be given a special class. Government schools shouldn't be able to churn out warrior monks in my opinion. It takes some of the mystique away from the mystic class. I also like the implication that, with the first options, the mystic is getting that extra ability from an external source, rather than from mere physical and mental training.
- A patron immortal, or group of immortals
- nature, the universe, harmony, the planet, or some aspect of that
- an element, or a sphere, or some combination of them
- nationalism
- no ideals. These guys are doing purely to be better killing machines.
A fourth variable no one has mentioned yet is the physical structure of the monastery. truly nomadic monasteries aren't really possible given the levels of organisation implied.
- A fixed permanent building. This is the traditional view.
- Semi-permanent camps. This is the likely state of any such monasteries in Ethengar and Atruaghin.
- Dispersed. An elven monastery with a nature focus might have a number of clearings scattered throughout a wide area, each of which has a designated function similar to individual rooms of a more traditional monastery. This might also be the structure for a banned monastic order operating illegally in a city.
----
Now, to answer some earlier queries...
Ethengar monasteries would certainly be semi-nomadic in nature, and favour armed combat. I imagine the Ethengar traditions to be based on their religion, while the Atruaghin one might be more attuned to nature. Atruaghin monasteries could be either semi-nomadic or dispersed.
I'll admit teh idea of Ethengar monasteries is pushing things a little. This might be partly due to my interpretation of Ethengar. I see it more as based on Kublai's rather than Ghenghis' Mongolia. The leadership has a semi-nomadic capital, and is on the edge of urbanisation.
Ylari monasteries could be permanent or semi-nomadic. They are almost certainly associated with al-Kalim. While their method of worship is visibly different, their obvious devotion, stronger than most laymen, keeps them clear of the religious police. In some cases, they might even *be* the religious police.
The Glantri mystic tradition could be based off Ethengar or Sindi traditions, or it might even be a corrupted version than has more to do with the radiance.
I can't imagine a northern reaches mystic/monk at all, not even a shamanistic, bezerker style mystic fighter. I recall there is NR magic that can induce that effect in a warrior, but going berserk is an inherently chaotic style of fighting, which is pretty much the antithesis of the lawful alignment concept. The idea of a monastery full of berserkers just seems paradoxical.
Thyatian monastic orders? Sure, just not ones that favour unarmed combat. Thyatians are too great lovers of efficiency, and I'm not aware of any published mystic class that makes unarmed combat absolutely more effficient that armed combat at levels below 4th, which is where 90% of the order would be at.
Ochalea and Sind should have dozens of different monastic orders.
Alphatian monastic orders of all types could exist. The background suggests they wouldn't be any more common than Thyatis though. I don't think there would be any danger of them being mistaken for a wizard though. Alphatia is noted for having some very strict sumptuary laws. A noble is free to dress down as a commoner, but while an approximation could be made, it woudl be easy for anyone with savoir-faire to tell a commoner from a noble by dress.
That class is the 3E translation of the Mystic class for D&D, although I think the term Mystic was probably more apt for describing this class, thus leaving the term monk to be used in the common Christian sense of "priest belonging to a certain order associated to an enclosed monastery".
Since we are left with Monk as a PC Class and the common term to describe a priest dwelling in a monastery, we may differentiate the two types using the capital letter for the PC class :P
That said, I still believe that the Ethengarians may have some Monks among them, probably trained by Keshak specialists in the camps of the Great Khan. That's why I thought the Lhamsa monks are of ethengarian origin, since I do not see ANY trace of Sindhi in Glantri that could explain the existence of a Sindhi monastery in the heart of the Principalities.
However, it could very well be that some Glantrians went to study in Sind and later came back influenced by the Sindhi mystics and mystic orders enough to build their own monastery. Yes, it's probably more likely :D
As I have previously explained, we are referring here to the term MONK that describes the PC Class introduced in D&D 3Edition Player's Handbook.
That class is the 3E translation of the Mystic class for D&D, although I think the term Mystic was probably more apt for describing this class, thus leaving the term monk to be used in the common Christian sense of "priest belonging to a certain order associated to an enclosed monastery".
Indeed. This is why I haven't commented on the idea of Knightly Orders being considered Monks. Although an interesting concept, they are better handled through the Paladin Class or one of the classes from Complete Warrior.
Since we are left with Monk as a PC Class and the common term to describe a priest dwelling in a monastery, we may differentiate the two types using the capital letter for the PC class :P
Okay.
What I initially wanted to ask was: Can we make use of the Monk Class to represent a type of character that would be found in a Christian Monastery? (With possible flavour-wise or even rules-wise modifications if neccesary). If so, could such an archetype exist in countries such as Karameikos, Darokin and Thyatis (Western-based countries IMO)?
I am sensing that most people here would say no, and recommend that I use the Cleric class for these types of monastic orders if they exist at all. I'm not so sure I agree though. Looking at Eberron, that setting allows for Monks following the various Churches of that setting. I think something similar could be interesting for Mystara.
Also, a recent issue of Dragon had rules for Chaotic Monks, though that is a different story.
Håvard
Okay.
What I initially wanted to ask was: Can we make use of the Monk Class to represent a type of character that would be found in a Christian Monastery? (With possible flavour-wise or even rules-wise modifications if neccesary). If so, could such an archetype exist in countries such as Karameikos, Darokin and Thyatis (Western-based countries IMO)?
Well, let's dissect the Monk:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Armor is fine, most weapons can be changed to western equivalents with only a minor loss of utility. (Mostly in disarming bonuses.)
AC Bonus
Well, Friar Tuck seemd pretty nimble despite his girth, and avoiding the blows of the heathen seems reasonable.
Flurry of Blows
Perhaps more appropriate for teachers when armed with rulers (+2 modifier on Intimidate checks vs unruly students!), but not outrageous.
Unarmed Strike
The essence of the smackdown effect, and again not unreasonable just on face value.
Bonus Feats
This would be most subject to modification by culture, but various settings have already established this as "reasonable" within the structure of the rules., so it isn't a problem.
Evasion
Now we start getting into the more extreme effects, but this is still not that outrageous. Our holy westerner should be just as able to avoid being blown up as our holy easterner.
Fast Movement
Again, Friar Tuck seemed to manage a pretty decent hustle, so I don't see this as overtly out of character.
Still Mind
This is definitely in-character, for any holy type.
Ki Strike
Now this one is difficult. Ki is a very eastern concept. As it happens, I have some significant issues with the use of the term overall, but that is a major digression. At most, I think a minor revision of the term would be sufficient.
Slow Fall
This one seems more out of character. Perhaps it should be replaced with something else.
Purity of Body
Like Still Mind, this is completely in-character.
Wholeness of Body
Again, completely in-character.
Improved Evasion
Well, this might be pushing things a bit. Perhaps replacing both this and Evasion with Mettle and Improved Mettle would be better.
Diamond Body.
Still in-character.
Abundant Step
Now this is definitely off-beat, and is a good candidate for change.
Diamond Soul
In-character like the other body related abilities.
Quivering Palm
This could use a name change, but works fine as a super-holy-smackdown.
Timeless Body
Still OK as a physical bonus.
Tongue of the Sun and Moon
Needs to be renamed, but is in-character for a western holy type.
Empty Body
Like Abundant Step, this should be changed.
Perfect Self
Another in-character quality.
So overall, out of 21 class features, I see 12 that are fine as they are, 3 that just need a name change, 1 that is established as being variable by DMs, 2 that might need a shift in the save they affect, and 3 that are probably out of character and should be outright replaced.
I think it can be done.
- hero cult
- one or more patron immortals, perhaps acting as a pantheon
- nature, universe, the planet, universal brotherhood, harmony, radiance, etc
- an element, immortal sphere, or some combination of them
Basically, the same sources that have been cited as powering a cleric can power a mystic. The main difference is in how they channel that energy. This mystical channelling requirement removes mundane martial schools from the picture, keeping mystics suitably unusual.
I've also come to the conclusion that the mystic class needs a complete re-write for Mystara, not just adapting it. The original monk class was written specifically for Greyhawk's Scarlet brotherhood, and fit it well. Later uses were either "they have it so we want it" or shoehorning the class into a campaign ad hoc.
So a lot of the original monk class is relevant, but let's not kid ourselves. It's needs a proper redoing. I'd also suggest that just as clerics of individual immortals have specific modifications, monks of specific orders should likewise have changes. Speak with animals might be appropriate to an Atruaghin mystic, but not to a Heldannic knight. Their weapons and armour allowance would likewise be very different.
To answer the original question of how to get a Friar Tuck type character in Karameikos...
Mystara's strength is the close proximity of multiple settings. It would be churlish to ignore that.
Our brother Kwanus is a native of Karameikos, but he is no stranger to travel. He started life as a warrior, and ended up travelling to Sind fighting against the armies of the Master of Hule. He settled there for many years, accepting the tutelage of a Sindian mystic guru. But he never lost his original faith, religious conversion being deemed unnecessary by his guru. perhaps he just imagined Halav to be yet another aspect of an obscure Sindi immortal. He is now back in Karameikos, teaching this exotic style of fighting and mental training, but blended with his own religious philosophies under Halav.
With a decent backstory, the possibilities are almost limitless.
As I have previously explained, we are referring here to the term MONK that describes the PC Class introduced in D&D 3Edition Player's Handbook.
That class is the 3E translation of the Mystic class for D&D, although I think the term Mystic was probably more apt for describing this class, thus leaving the term monk to be used in the common Christian sense of "priest belonging to a certain order associated to an enclosed monastery".
Then, it should be limited to whatever instances of the Mystic class are present in the various areas. Consider that Mystics, rule-wise, have always been available, since we find them in the Gazetteers of Glantri and Minrothad. In both Gazetteers, though, these are marginal elements of the society -- individual monasteries, one of them only recently established.
Other than that, we know that there are many monasteries in Sind, Ochalea, and, considering what the Minrothad gazetteer says, Alphatia.
That said, I still believe that the Ethengarians may have some Monks among them, probably trained by Keshak specialists in the camps of the Great Khan.
I find it very odd, for several reasons.
1) There are no known monasteries in Ethengar, and Ethengar doesn't lend itself to building Mystic monasteries at all, given the culture and the features of the land.
2) Oddly, you seem to be confusing "Mystic" with "martial artist". :P
While certainly the Bratak practice some form of martial arts, and "wrestling" is mentioned (though, oddly, not described) as a skill in the Ethengar gaz, Ethengar PCs are limited to the classes offered in the gaz, which do not include the Mystic.
3) Sind is never mentioned in GAZ 3 for the simple reason that it did not exist at the time. Still, we know from later sources that Sind borders with Glantri, and there's at least on trade route (through Sablestone) linking Glantri with Sind. So a Sindhi influence is entirely possible. Consider that there are Sindhi orders that require the initiate to travel far, and that there are thousands of Mystics in Sind.
4) The chief Mystic of Lhamsa is called "the Great Saffron Mystic" -- saffron is the colour of Buddhist monk dresses, and Lhamsa itself reminds Lhasa (in Tibet); all of this seems to point to a Sindhi rather than Ethengarian origin.
Now, this doesn't mean that there can't be Ethengarian influences in Lhamsa -- OTOH, that's almost certain. Rather, those influences will not be related to the cloistered monk lifestyle or with the search of enlightenment -- which is per se quite far from the Ethengarian mindset, IMO.
(re: Ethengar mystics/monk)
I find it very odd, for several reasons.
1) There are no known monasteries in Ethengar, and Ethengar doesn't lend itself to building Mystic monasteries at all, given the culture and the features of the land.
In my interpretation of Ethengar mystic orders, they live a semi-nomadic lifestly.e The "monastery" is a central collection of yurts, which is moved on a seasonal (or more) basis in line with availability of grazing lands for the herds. This semi-nomadic style could also be used for Atruaghin, Elven, and Sindi monasteries, although more traditional styles could also exist.
2) Oddly, you seem to be confusing "Mystic" with "martial artist". :P
While certainly the Bratak practice some form of martial arts, and "wrestling" is mentioned (though, oddly, not described) as a skill in the Ethengar gaz, Ethengar PCs are limited to the classes offered in the gaz, which do not include the Mystic.
The mystic class was only introduced to Mystara in the rles Cyclopaedia, which was published after the Ethengar gazetteer.
4) The chief Mystic of Lhamsa is called "the Great Saffron Mystic" -- saffron is the colour of Buddhist monk dresses, and Lhamsa itself reminds Lhasa (in Tibet); all of this seems to point to a Sindhi rather than Ethengarian origin.
Kublai Khan was also a Buddhist. The Mongol empire was unusually tolerant of multiple faiths, but the religion of the elite was Buddhism. The colour of the robes doesn't point to either Sindi or Ethengar roots, as both are inspired by real world groups that had a Buddhist background.
- pacifist. No one seems to be seriously discussing these as a player class. It would be entirely appropriate for these to exist almost everywhere any significant level of urbanisation has developed - as NPCs.
- unarmed. This is the stereotypical image for 'oriental' mystic/monk classes. They do of course use weapons when useful, but they get real training in unarmed styles, and the rules generally favour unarmed combat at higher levels.
- armed. This is the typical role for western style militant knightly orders (ie militant monks). The classic example in the real world is the knights of st John. I'd place the Heldannic knights in this group too. While they may have varying abilities in brawling, unarmed combat is seen as a last resort approach with these groups.
I'd say that the difference is mostly in whether the fighting ability is based on mobility or punch. The "unarmed" type would be mostly an unarmored type, the "armed" would be a mounted knight or heavy infantry type.
Pacifist monks are not that unlikely. Their pacifism can be either limited to self-defense and non-killing, which still makes the character quite useful in combat, or lead to a lack of skill in combat -- then the character should compensate with other abilities, so this option is better suited to spellcaster.
The final variable is the cause that is served. Possibilities that have been discussed are listed below. Of these, I'm not sure the two last items should be given a special class. Government schools shouldn't be able to churn out warrior monks in my opinion. It takes some of the mystique away from the mystic class. I also like the implication that, with the first options, the mystic is getting that extra ability from an external source, rather than from mere physical and mental training.
- A patron immortal, or group of immortals
- nature, the universe, harmony, the planet, or some aspect of that
- an element, or a sphere, or some combination of them
- nationalism
- no ideals. These guys are doing purely to be better killing machines.
I think the last two are rather unlikely, for the same reason as the government-sponsored monks. The first is possible, but not as likely as the second and third. Immortals already sponsor priests of various types: why would they sponsor monks, who are more focused on self-perfection than carrying out the will of the immortal(s)?
A fourth variable no one has mentioned yet is the physical structure of the monastery. truly nomadic monasteries aren't really possible given the levels of organisation implied.
Note that monasteries are not really necessary, IMO. They are stereotypical of both the "oriental" and the "western" monk, but, depending on their philosophy, seekers of enlightenment may be reclusive hermits as well.
The way monks are organized will depend on their region of origin. What is truly important (for the pseudo-oriental monk, at least, the western monk has different focus) is IMO that:
1) The local culture supports the ideal of self-perfection via meditation and physical exercise
2) The local culture either supports a variety of religious and philosophical trends or does not emphasize Immortal worship
3) The local economy produces a surplus that can be used to support monks (otherwise there will be only individual hermits)
Alphatian monastic orders of all types could exist. The background suggests they wouldn't be any more common than Thyatis though. I don't think there would be any danger of them being mistaken for a wizard though. Alphatia is noted for having some very strict sumptuary laws. A noble is free to dress down as a commoner, but while an approximation could be made, it woudl be easy for anyone with savoir-faire to tell a commoner from a noble by dress.
An Alphatian mystic tradition is mentioned in GAZ9. Note that, since all original Alphatians were natural spellcasters, it is not likely that they have developed this tradition before the Landfall.
Moreover, since non-spellcasters in Alphatia have few rights, there are pretty limited chances that they can establish monasteries, or even go about their businness unhindered (most are slaves anyway, or must work hard to keep whatever rank they have).
We have two hints at cultures where Mystics are present and that are related to Alphatia: Thotia and Ochalea.
We can assume that, after arriving on Mystara, Alphatians who were born without magical abilities could have looked for ways to cope with what they would see as a disability -- some became clerics, for example.
Others might have adopted Thotian training techniques, hoping that physical exercise and meditation would "awaken" their magical potential.
Since at some point the non-magical Alphatian started to be discriminated and moved away to the Isle of Dawn, Ochalea and other regions, these schools would have moved as well. So Alphatian mystics would be more common in the Isle of Dawn and in the Alphatian nations that are more friendly to non-spellcasters.
Pacifist monks. Strictly speaking, that should be labelled peaceful monks. Of course, all pacifist monks are peaceful, but I didn't mean to imply that all such monks would avoid combat any any cost. I simply meant to highlight that there are mystics whose regimen does not include rigorous combat training. And while they could be PCs, I'd discourage it, as they would be very underpowered relative to their peers, unless you allow some truly bizarre skills and poweres to compensate.
It's not necessary for the local economy to be supporting a monastery. Indeed, in medieval times, it would not be unusual for a monastery to provide meaningful employment for a small village, or even cause a small village to arise around the monastery. It's well worth noting that historically, monasteries tended to control the brewing industry in many areas.
The mystic class was only introduced to Mystara in the rles Cyclopaedia, which was published after the Ethengar gazetteer.
Not at all. As I said, the Mystic class was already present in both GAZ3 and GAZ9, which are both older than GAZ12!
This is because the Mystic class was actually introduced in the Master Set (Black Box) much earlier, way before the Ethengar Gazetteer was published.
So I won't buy the usual "it wasn't possible by those old rules" excuse this time :P
Kublai Khan was also a Buddhist. The Mongol empire was unusually tolerant of multiple faiths, but the religion of the elite was Buddhism. The colour of the robes doesn't point to either Sindi or Ethengar roots, as both are inspired by real world groups that had a Buddhist background.
That Kublai Khan was a Buddhist has little relevance here: it is plain clear that Ethengar as described in the GAZ is a representation of the Mongols right after Genghis Khan took over, but before his campaigns in China.
Indeed, the Ethengars as presented in the Gaz are confined in their homeland, and there is no Empire at all.
Kublai Khan ruled much later, and his empire was much larger than Mongolia, being mostly centered on China.
Ethengar doesn't represent this kind of multi-cultural empire, so your point doesn't seem strong enough to me.
Pacifist monks. Strictly speaking, that should be labelled peaceful monks. Of course, all pacifist monks are peaceful, but I didn't mean to imply that all such monks would avoid combat any any cost. I simply meant to highlight that there are mystics whose regimen does not include rigorous combat training. And while they could be PCs, I'd discourage it, as they would be very underpowered relative to their peers, unless you allow some truly bizarre skills and poweres to compensate.
Ah, ok. I do agree, though these may be more likely to be priests or even psionicists.
It's not necessary for the local economy to be supporting a monastery. Indeed, in medieval times, it would not be unusual for a monastery to provide meaningful employment for a small village, or even cause a small village to arise around the monastery. It's well worth noting that historically, monasteries tended to control the brewing industry in many areas.
Well, those monks did not spend all their time practicing kung fu, did they?
These were non-combatant monks. If they had to train in combat skills as well as philosophical/religious activities, they would be left with little time to manage breweries.
The Mystic, as a character class, is one of the few who have no real means of self-supporting outside adventuring life. While the thieves and warriors can simply live by their trade, and priests are definitely useful to the community, Mystics (and wizards, to a certain extent) are not that useful. They can serve as backup healers, but priests outclass them -- that's why you find Mystics in Glantri: the Glantrians have no clerics to provide magical healing.