This thought process has led me to think up other options for inconsistencies (mainly borys having wings or not) that and just leading to some cool elements in a game. Reading the thread posts on the thread about the Rise and Fall of a Dragon King educated me on the theory of which the SK's were endowed with the first step of their transformation by Rajaat. I like this, and if they were given this first step by him, then at this first step, they could walk in other directions.
While i am not trying to push people away from the idea of them transforming into dragons or even just having someone go through the exact deal...i am trying to put a creative spin on a concept which i think is quite interesting
I think that Dregoth, Borys, Kalid-ma, and Kalak all found the same 'formula' (which i think Dregoth invented...but whatever) and tried to go through it quickly as possible. While Borys is full dragon in a matter of a spell (big one at that) Dregoth becomes close and is killed...now undead. Kalid-ma and Kalak are killed in outside events...so their whole thing didn't turn out as well.
The Oba of Glug might consider being a dragon a tad bit...nasty...she might consider somethign more with a "serpent feel" to her tastes...Looking and combing indian folklore elements, i see a 'Dragon' which is much more like a maralith. This might be as far as she wishes to progress for she might feel she is in the "ultimate" or "form she was born for" or whatever...just a thought though....i could see a jungle queen being a maralith whom was determined to have teh agility, strength, and beauty of a serpent..and thanks to that draconic transformation (which might eventually put her something like the styx dragon)...who knows
HAMANU!!!! man i think he's cool...but yeah, the lion king of Urik Half way through, he migh tlook like a leonel (hairs eventually turn into spins and such). be something more like a fang dragon...aiming for combat prowess
Nibenay - i could see him going for the shadow dragon (wonder where i got shadow from). The pinnacle of arcane power is the shadow...or whatever way you'd wanna look at it.
I would rather see varied transformations then just the run of the mill - well he's gonna turn into borys...yay...
I would rather see varied transformations then just the run of the mill - well he's gonna turn into borys...yay...
both thumbs up to your idea, how do you think it will affect the mechanics? Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 50
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 day
Target: Personal
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
To Develop: 450,000 cp; 9 days; 18,000 XP. Seed: metamorphoss (DC 28), reveal (*). Factors: Change type to dragon (+50 DC), speak/understand/read any language (+115 DC), ageless (+10 DC). Mitigating factor: personal target (-2 DC), sacrifice 1,000 Hit Dice of living creatures (-50 DC), preparation time 1 year (-12 DC), increase casting time to 1 day (-22 DC), 17d6 backlash (-17 DC), 5,000,000 cp structure (-50 DC).
This spell transforms an arcane caster into the first stage of the Athasian Dragon species. The caster’s type becomes dragon; he loses all previous types, and gains all advantages of the new type. The caster no longer can die of old age, and no longer suffers penalties to attributes for aging. The caster gains the ability to comprehend and speak any language of creatures that he interacts with, per the tongues ability. This spell must be cast as a defiler spell. Casting this spell requires the caster to expend his psionic focus and lose 100 power points. If the caster is unable to lose the 100 power points, the spell immediately fails. The spell must be cast within a specialized focus structure designed specifically for the first three defler meamorphoss spells, costing no less than 5,000,000 cp. (50,000 gp.) Physically, the newly formed dragon changes very little, save normally doubling its mass. The dragon not only doubles in mass, but increases in size preportionally (ie the cubed root of 2 which i have no idea of what that is right now...get back to you on that later) and the pupils of the eyes change to that of a serpent (narrow vertical slit). There is a 75% chance that the iris of the newly formed eye is green. Proportions of the human body are also subject to change depending on the individual; however, all experience having their legs being proportionally longer than they were at the beginning of the ritual.
Example: A human defiler’s mass may increase up to 350 pounds.
Lalai-Puy's Defiler Metamorphosis II
Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 53
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 day
Target: Personal
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
To Develop: 477,000 cp; 10 days; 19,080 XP. Seed: metamorphoss (DC 28). Factors: +2 Str (+90 DC), +2 Con (+90 DC). Mitigating factor: personal target (-2 DC), sacrifice 1,000 Hit Dice of living creatures (-50 DC), preparation time 1 year (-12 DC), increase casting time to 1 day (-22 DC), 17d6 backlash (-17 DC), 5,000,000 cp structure (-50 DC).
This spell transforms an arcane caster into the second stage of the Athasian Dragon species. At this stage the rudimentary nature of the dragon starts taking root and increases the caster’s strength and stamina, granting a +2 enhancement bonus to Str and Con. This spell may only be cast after the defiler metamorphosis I spell has been cast, the caster must be of the dragon type, and the spell may only be cast using the dragon magic class ability. Casting this spell requires the caster to expend his psionic focus and lose 106 power points. If the caster is unable to lose the 106 power points, the spell immediately fails. The spell must be cast within a specialized focus structure designed specifically for the first three defiler metamorphosis spells, costing no less than 5,000,000 cp. (50,000 gp.) At this point the dragon’s physical form changes still further, increasing in both height and weight. Legs of the caster continue to lengthen as well. The legs muscular structure becomes a little different as their hips increase and muscles become tight and enlarged. Bones begin to to increase in density as the skin increases with tensile strength. The tongue of the caster has a 25% of become forked at this point in the transformation and 30% chance of their teeth becoming something similar to that of a carnivore. Not only that, but there is a 10% chance that small contusions form on the sides of the of the caster, showing signs of some changes in the muscular and skeletal structure on the sides of the caster.
Example: A human defiler’s weight may increase up to 450 pounds, and their height can be as tall as 11 foot.
I will get back to this at a later date; however, i will need some help determining the spellcasting dcs for certain abilities further down the road
Oh, this is also based on the works of athas.org Compliments on mechanics and i will not take credit for the base build. I will be altering the spells to how I see fit with contributions of other board members
It seems to have been hinted at in the Prism Pentad that the dragon forms of the various sorcerer-monarchs were far from identical. The scene in Cerulean Storm (iirc) where they are all together on the ship has them appearing in different forms - only Nibenay is openly draconic, I seem to recall. Of course, this could just be the effect of high-level illusions matching equally high-level egotistical self-images, but I have always like the idea that each dragon's transformation was unique.
Judging from the pictures in Marauders of Nibenay, Nibenay chose the HR Giger alien dragon style. :P Seriously speaking though, individual transformations is a nice touch for individual DMs, but I doubt individual transformations will be forthcoming from Athas.org.
The transformation from II to X would be customizable and i recumand to include the mitigating factor to be castable only after reciving the previous stage of the (same customization) spell... (how this factor will mitigate the DC of the spells?)
to Jon:
Probably individual transformations will not be forthcoming from Athas.org but since ths board is quite active maybe we all can come up whit something worth their attention
Some of the SKs are described in book 5 of the PP- and I think that would be a fair represnetation of what their actual forms look like.
The logistics of making the varied transformations was overwhelming. As such, Athas.org went with trying to match the spirit of what was in 2E with the mechanics of 3.5E.
And EVERYONE loves you for it. :bounce: I think that variations are natural though, as each character will end up researching the spells and having their own ideas and wants. The end point will be roughly the same for eveyone, and since the nice people at athas.org have done the hard part, once we know the epic seed for the spell, coming up with minor variations that actually effect the results of the spell will be relativly easy.
And I have to agree with Kal, I don't like the big moth of light idea for Oronis, or anyone really. Peace and light and preservers and big moths just don't seem to go for me. It seems very un-darksun to me, regardless of the fact that it was in the previous editions.
i always thought the SKs appearences were due to powerful illusions weaved about their person, but underneath it all their forms were very much draconic. i would say that each SK would develop different traits and forms unique to them, but always those forms would be reptilian and draconic in nature. i'd imagine variations of color, form, shape and such would exist; but nothing greater than that, i.e. - black vs. red scales, long snout vs. short snout, wider body vs. more elongated, differing spines or horns, etc. in the end they still look like dragons, but the differences would be only as varied as the dragon varieties of other worlds - gold, silver, red, green, blue, etc.
In total agreement here.
to Jon:
Probably individual transformations will not be forthcoming from Athas.org but since ths board is quite active maybe we all can come up whit something worth their attention
Good luck getting concensus. :P
Good luck getting concensus. :P
we all comprehended you also oracular humorist :D
Defilers> Dragons
Preservers> Avangions
Druids> Spirit of the Land
Clerics> their chosen element
Psionicists> Have to become part of the Order; crap end of the stick, considering no more Order worth getting excited about.
So how about:
Shadow Wizards> Shadow Giants
Cerulean Wizards> Living Cerulean Storm
Something I've toyed with for awhile.
Well, looking at Dragon Kings HC:
Defilers> Dragons
Preservers> Avangions
Druids> Spirit of the Land
Clerics> their chosen element
Psionicists> Have to become part of the Order; crap end of the stick, considering no more Order worth getting excited about.
So how about:
Shadow Wizards> Shadow Giants
Cerulean Wizards> Living Cerulean Storm
Something I've toyed with for awhile.
I have been working on Shadow wizards, and the focus has been on them being beings of both darkness and light, because one does not exist without the other. personally I think shadow giants should remain Rajaat's helpers, and the Shadow wizards should be something different, i just haven't figured out what is DS enough to make it so.
Well, looking at Dragon Kings HC:
Defilers> Dragons
Preservers> Avangions
Druids> Spirit of the Land
Clerics> their chosen element
Psionicists> Have to become part of the Order; crap end of the stick, considering no more Order worth getting excited about.
So how about:
Shadow Wizards> Shadow Giants
Cerulean Wizards> Living Cerulean Storm
Something I've toyed with for awhile.
What's Jon's (or was it Flips, or Kam's.... or all of them?) favorite catch-phrase... "Compulsive Symmetry". That's what this looks like.
Honestly, there is a flaw in the idea. The Advanced Beings seem to work around the premise of a magic/spellcaster who then in turn uses Psionics to push Magic to a new, greater level -- almost like a tool. Thus, Dragons are not "just" Defilers. They are Defilers & Manifesters. Avangions are not "just" Preservers, they are Preservers & Manifesters, and so on. When you look at the Psionicist, there is nothing about them that would make sense for an Advanced Being -- because Psionicists (or rather Psions, or just Manifesters in general) are not magical spellcasters.
Further, it appears that it's not just any spellcaster who can become an Advanced Being. It looks like those who are capable of casting 9th level spells -- which is why a Ranger is just right out. While the same could be said about Psychic Warriors, as I mentioned, it appears through the 2E books, and more to the point, the mechanics of 3/3.5E seem to dictate that it's not important to be a "master" of psionics (9th level powers). As such, I've worked with the notion that Psychic Warriors could concievably develop into Advanced Beings -- they would not really be the best choice, as their psionic abilities would be weaker than a Psion or Wilder (or Erudite like I allow in my campaigns), and it would require more levels for the Psychic Warrior to achieve the same results, the possibility would be there all the same.
And for Templars -- yes, they can reach 9th level spellcasting ability. But honestly, I view it like this -- the Sorcerer-Kings aren't exactly going to let one of their followers potentially become a rival. Templars are completely reliant on their respective Sorcerer-King for power. As it is, Divine Advanced Beings don't quite work like the Arcane ones -- I lean more towards the idea that the source of a Divine spellcaster's power grants them access towards becoming an Advanced Being (rather than the spellcaster developing a personal series of spells to advance through and become a self-made Advanced Being like the Avangion or Dragon). As such, I don't see any of the Sorcerer-Kings granting that privalege to any of their followers. For all except Oronis, it would be a possible threat to their power (and the Dragon Kings would probably see it as suicide to pretty much create such a threat to their own power), while Oronis would probably just feel too guilty over it, and would worry endlessly that his Templar who is becoming an Advanced Being could be easily killed by his rivals (and reveal who and what he is to them). He's already very adamant against teaching anyone else how to become an Avangion (since everyone he did, is dead now).
So, that means that for the Advanced Beings, you end up with:
- Defiler + Psionic Manifester => Dragon
- Preserver + Psionic Manifester => Avangion
- Cleric + Psionic Manifester => Elemental
- Druid + Psionic Manifester => Spirit of the Land
The only other possibility would be Templar, and as I mentioned, it doesn't make any kind of sense for them to exist.
Any other connection with any other combination of classes is smacking hard of "Compulsive Symmetry".
That said, there is a route for the psion that hasn't been touched on, which is that taken by Tarandas of Raam, who is said to have left her mortal shell behind and passed into other realms. In my games, I use the Psion Uncarnate prcl for that, but I guess there is room for some epic-level development in that arena, should an individual DM be so inclined...
I don't really buy the line about Tarandas, sounds to me more like she managed to escape Athas for the outerplanes. Either that or she died somehow and no one found out about.
If you want variant transformations, start at second stage, not first. Assuming you buy the line that Borys made everyone 1st-stage dragons. Cuz they would all share the same spell at that stage (except i guess dregoth and hamanu). So the unique transformation spells should begin with the stage-2 spell.
Like others have said before, even if defilers can only go the route of a dragon and preservers the route of an avangion, nothing says that they all have to be the same kind of dragon / avangion.
Here are some thoughts on various transformations for each SM:
Lalai-Puy: Her transformation has been slowed down because she doesn't like the physical transformation which is entailed in becoming a dragon. She is looking for ways to gain the powers of a dragon without necessarily losing her human form. She floundered at this process for King's Ages, but now she is investigating a transformation which will allow her to freely polymorph from one form to the other and she is making much more rapid progress. She still hasn't figured out a way to completely control the process, however.
Hammanu: I like the ideal of Hammanu transforming into a lion-like dragon. Ultimately I imagine him with a lion-like mane (perhaps of spikes or quills), powerful feline limbs, a long serpentine body, and of course, a serpentine tail.
Tectuktitlay (or Azutek, depending on what continuity you use...): He encountered a great deal of trouble binding the life essence of living creates to the obsidian orbs through magic / psionics alone. He discovered a way around this problem, but it requires that he physically and individually kill each and every one of the thousand people that he will use to power his metamorphasis spell. Tectuktitlay's transformation is changing him into a very serpentine dragon with an extremely long and slender body. Another unique characteristic of Tectuktitlay's metamorphasis is the presence of feathers on his body. Currently, they are sprouting up around his elongated neck.
Daskinor: The dragon metamorphasis spell isn't simply hit or miss. Tampering with such high-powered magic and psionics, immortality, and the very substance of life itself is extremely dangerous. When attempts at transformation fail, defilers rarely maintain their current state without penalty. Daskinor's transformation went terribly wrong. He was the greediest of the Soceror Kings and he charged ahead with his transformation without caution. The slow progression that other Soceror Mages have made is a reflection of their fear about what is happening to Daskinor.
Nibenay: Nibenay believes the dragon transformation is deeply tied to the live-shaping ability of the Blue Age. He spends countless hours researching that era, along with the powers of the Pristine Tower in hopes of mastering his transformation. Nibenay experimented with the Pristine Tower powers of transformation, turning his own son, Dhojakt into a powerful (albiet hideous) man-beast. Nibenay has also researched the dark lens and the role it played in Borys' transformation. He believes that the plane of Shadow played a great role in Borys' metamorphasis and he is attempting to power his own transformation with forces from that Plane. The Shadow King, has, however, stumbled onto a completely unique process and his transformation will not only change him physically, but it will also permanently link him to the plane of shadow.
More on other transformations later.
itf
I say ruvoka, for one.
I like XploreDarkhelm's ideas about transformation.
Like others have said before, even if defilers can only go the route of a dragon and preservers the route of an avangion, nothing says that they all have to be the same kind of dragon / avangion.
Here are some thoughts on various transformations for each SM:
Lalai-Puy: Her transformation has been slowed down because she doesn't like the physical transformation which is entailed in becoming a dragon. She is looking for ways to gain the powers of a dragon without necessarily losing her human form. She floundered at this process for King's Ages, but now she is investigating a transformation which will allow her to freely polymorph from one form to the other and she is making much more rapid progress. She still hasn't figured out a way to completely control the process, however.
Hammanu: I like the ideal of Hammanu transforming into a lion-like dragon. Ultimately I imagine him with a lion-like mane (perhaps of spikes or quills), powerful feline limbs, a long serpentine body, and of course, a serpentine tail.
Tectuktitlay (or Azutek, depending on what continuity you use...): He encountered a great deal of trouble binding the life essence of living creates to the obsidian orbs through magic / psionics alone. He discovered a way around this problem, but it requires that he physically and individually kill each and every one of the thousand people that he will use to power his metamorphasis spell. Tectuktitlay's transformation is changing him into a very serpentine dragon with an extremely long and slender body. Another unique characteristic of Tectuktitlay's metamorphasis is the presence of feathers on his body. Currently, they are sprouting up around his elongated neck.
Daskinor: The dragon metamorphasis spell isn't simply hit or miss. Tampering with such high-powered magic and psionics, immortality, and the very substance of life itself is extremely dangerous. When attempts at transformation fail, defilers rarely maintain their current state without penalty. Daskinor's transformation went terribly wrong. He was the greediest of the Soceror Kings and he charged ahead with his transformation without caution. The slow progression that other Soceror Mages have made is a reflection of their fear about what is happening to Daskinor.
Nibenay: Nibenay believes the dragon transformation is deeply tied to the live-shaping ability of the Blue Age. He spends countless hours researching that era, along with the powers of the Pristine Tower in hopes of mastering his transformation. Nibenay experimented with the Pristine Tower powers of transformation, turning his own son, Dhojakt into a powerful (albiet hideous) man-beast. Nibenay has also researched the dark lens and the role it played in Borys' transformation. He believes that the plane of Shadow played a great role in Borys' metamorphasis and he is attempting to power his own transformation with forces from that Plane. The Shadow King, has, however, stumbled onto a completely unique process and his transformation will not only change him physically, but it will also permanently link him to the plane of shadow.
More on other transformations later.
itf
Your thought process runs Somewhat close to mine
I do like the idea of the slowed transformation process; I myself was standing on the position between making her become all nasty at all because she obviously prizes her beauty, or turning her into something which she thinks not only "enhances" her beauty, but shows her as the Oba. I drew off of some Indian and other asian cultures which they might deem as beautiful...and i would picture something akin to a maralith as being her people's paragon of power and beauty (sheba mixed with the cobra). Now...that's just a guess..but that idea is cool as well
Hamanu...the lion thing just works for me...i picture him looking like a leonel sometime through his transformation, then his hair becomes more spiney then hair, and he grows scales underneath that. In the end he'd end up being something like a fang dragon (the breath weapon and the increased natural damage all add up to me) Pluss, give him the look of the lion king. I could see him stopping midway however...to retain the use of weapons...but that's just a thought.
Tectuktitlay...he's dead...didn't worry about him, but the feather bit is cool
Nibenay - Shadow dragon all the way
As for Nibenay, I'll agree with what I think is the general consensus among the more knowlegable fans, in that Shadow Wizard is just not appropriate.
Also, to note, IIRC Hamanu's lion form is NOT identifiable within his TRUE form. It is just an ILLUSION (although perhaps "very incatrite glamour" is more appropriate?).
It has been stated that there are different approaches to dragonhood (recalling Kalak's very insectile approach, and Borys's more avian-like form). These however, simply state a cosmetic difference. As such I'd say keep it simple as far as the actual transformation goes. This doesn't mean that in an indivdual campaign, players can't spice up the "look" of the casting - as well as the end result.
As for Nibenay, I'll agree with what I think is the general consensus among the more knowlegable fans, in that Shadow Wizard is just not appropriate.
Also, to note, IIRC Hamanu's lion form is NOT identifiable within his TRUE form. It is just an ILLUSION (although perhaps "very incatrite glamour" is more appropriate?).
Or it could be an adaptation of metamorphois or shape change that he has made permanent.
I say leave the first stage the same for all SK, excluding cosmetics their are all in the same can!
The Dread and the Lion Kings are special cases whorth a mechanical difference IMHO
That'll work too...whatever. Just so that his lion form is NOT HIS NATURAL FORM. :D
Agreed. The Lion appearance is a facade of Hamanu's. I actually use the image that is on the front of the book Rise & Fall of a Dragon King as a basis for what he really looks like, but thinner and more starved-looking.
Or Hamanu is undergoing a special transformation (RaFoaDK) in to somethimg mor similar to a Dragonne....
I say leave the first stage the same for all SK, excluding cosmetics their are all in the same can!
The Dread and the Lion Kings are special cases whorth a mechanical difference IMHO
One of the things we were trying to provide at Athas.org with the Dragon write-up was the concept that the cosmetic differences are up to the individual Dragon. We gave relatively broad and generalized descriptions, allowing for various interpretations as to what they really appear as. This way, we have a simple set of rules for Dragons, while at the same time have the freedom there for people to have different cosmetic appearances.
itf
Compulsive symmetry... not one of mine, your honour . Gotta agree that there's some of that going on, though. It seems to be something of a feature of 3e design, but a bit of asymmetry here and there is probably a good thing, imho.
That's Flip's catchphrase. I use it occasionally, but Flip's the source.
Teminus Vortexa mentioned some of his ideas about high-level transformations for Thri-Kreen (something like a Thri-Kreen dragon). It would be nice if he could post some information about that.
His high-level transformation for kreen is a dragon. His Vortexa character is a dragon kreen.
I don't seem to remember Kreen tranforming into Dragons as a part of the original rules. Is this info in Athas.org's expanded rules? I'd like to hear more.
itf
Penn,
I don't seem to remember Kreen tranforming into Dragons as a part of the original rules. Is this info in Athas.org's expanded rules? I'd like to hear more.
itf
It was not in 2E, because in 2E, only Humans (and occasionally Half-Elves) could become Advanced Beings. with the 3/3.5E mechanics we developed, we took out the racial restrictions. As such, a Thri-Kreen could become a Dragon. So could a Half-Giant, a Tari, a Mul, a Halfling... etc. They just need to meet the requirements we have in the rules. Check out the Dragon rules on Athas.org sometime
It was not in 2E, because in 2E, only Humans (and occasionally Half-Elves) could become Advanced Beings. with the 3/3.5E mechanics we developed, we took out the racial restrictions. As such, a Thri-Kreen could become a Dragon. So could a Half-Giant, a Tari, a Mul, a Halfling... etc. They just need to meet the requirements we have in the rules. Check out the Dragon rules on Athas.org sometime
yup it also have som logic since all, a part of the kreen are reborn races.
So why, under the 3.5 machanics, Rajaat preferred the humans as his champions?
why he discarded the halfling?
why the kreen?
yup it also have som logic since all, a part of the kreen are reborn races.
So why, under the 3.5 machanics, Rajaat preferred the humans as his champions?
why he discarded the halfling?
why the kreen?
The Kreen aren't part of the Rebirth races -- they existed prior to the Rebirth. I still think that they were genetically altered by lifeshaping techniques (presumably the nature-benders) but that doesn't mean they were part of the Rebirth. Rajaat wanted to protect the Halflings -- and he could have easily felt in his delusional mind that putting them in charge of the massacre of the Rebirth races would taint or corrupt the Halflings -- so instead he used a malleable, easily manipulated race, one which he could control and then wipe out himself -- Humans. He protected and shielded the Halflings from the Cleansing Wars (I forget which book covers that detail). Some of the Halflings did go into service with him and became the Shadow Giants.
The Kreen aren't part of the Rebirth races -- they existed prior to the Rebirth. I still think that they were genetically altered by lifeshaping techniques (presumably the nature-benders) but that doesn't mean they were part of the Rebirth. Rajaat wanted to protect the Halflings -- and he could have easily felt in his delusional mind that putting them in charge of the massacre of the Rebirth races would taint or corrupt the Halflings -- so instead he used a malleable, easily manipulated race, one which he could control and then wipe out himself -- Humans. He protected and shielded the Halflings from the Cleansing Wars (I forget which book covers that detail). Some of the Halflings did go into service with him and became the Shadow Giants.
a part of the kreen would mean all excep the kreen, i apology if I wasn't clear on that.
Now, while i was thinking quite on the same lines about both halflings (to be protected) and Humans (guillable) I cannot rationalize why Rajaat didn't choose the Kreen as his champions
they where:
1 a blue age race
2 quite willing tho eat any humanoid to start with
3 capable of defiler magic (under 3.5 rules)
a part of the kreen would mean all excep the kreen, i apology if I wasn't clear on that.
Now, while i was thinking quite on the same lines about both halflings (to be protected) and Humans (guillable) I cannot rationalize why Rajaat didn't choose the Kreen as his champions
they where:
1 a blue age race
2 quite willing tho eat any humanoid to start with
3 capable of defiler magic (under 3.5 rules)
Simply put, Rajaat assumed that they were little better than beasts. He didn't realise that they were a fully sentient species, mistaking them for big bugs, and so didn't deem them worthy of cleansing.
I cannot rationalize why Rajaat didn't choose the Kreen as his champions
Its just a thought, but maybe he chose humans because they comprise the majority of Dark Sun readers? :P (Baring a few dedicated alien fans who hack the net for the very puprose of acquiring DS pdfs.)
This make alot sense!
when you posted that statement. Personally I don't have that thri-kreen are technically incapable of magic in my setting, just that magic wasn't developed with thri-kreen in mind. Some may have tried to teach kreen how to cast spells, grown very frustrated with their inability to preform the verbal and somatic components and given up. Basically a kreen would have to reinvent magic and then begin teaching it to other kreen which simply put, has not happened.
I'm seriously consider making that into a plotline for my game now.
They weren't as good at magic because of the Level Adjustment.
........
Need I really say more?
this alone would suffice to discard the kreen as a champion race! :P
Thus, a Kreen Dragon wouldn't entirely be out of the question.
Once they reach a certain stage of transformation, they become immortal, eliminating the issue of the short life span- I'd just make the save # a bit higher to stave off dragon madness.
As a side note, I love the Thri-Kreen in 3/3.5E.
To me, the 2E version looked too much like a Vrusk from Star Frontiers which really wasn't my favorite race in that game either.
...Which seems to me like the perfect opportunity to create some new rules for 'Kreen Magic', that takes their extra limbs and differently-jointed fingers into account for casting spells. It could give players another reason for wanting to play a Thri-Kreen.
Thus, a Kreen Dragon wouldn't entirely be out of the question.
Once they reach a certain stage of transformation, they become immortal, eliminating the issue of the short life span- I'd just make the save # a bit higher to stave off dragon madness.
As a side note, I love the Thri-Kreen in 3/3.5E.
To me, the 2E version looked too much like a Vrusk from Star Frontiers which really wasn't my favorite race in that game either.
Your players need more incentives to play Kreen? Wow. The race is already rather powerful. Making additional set of rules just for them to use magic I think is extraneous at best. The 3.5e rules already allow for Kreen Dragons.
I wasn't advocating different rules for kreen magic, just that they would have to learn to cast their spells differently. There doesn't need to be any mechanical system other than the requirement that they initial learn the secrets of magic from another kreen and have to take a little extra time to adapt spells meant for humaniod (halflingiod) casrers.
Like so (this is a rough draft seeing how I just came up with the idea)
Multicasting
Prerequisits: Four or more arms, Combat Casting, Int 20, Dex 20.
Benefit: With this feat a spellcaster with multiple arms is able to cast an additional spell by utilizing their other set of hands. Doing this requires an extreme amount of concentration and time. As a full round action, the spellcaster must succeed in a concentration check with a DC equal to 15 + the combined level of both spells being cast. Failure in results in the loss of both spells.
Normal: A spellcaster can only cast one spell per round using a standard action.
Here is a thought- since they have 4 arms, would it be out of the question to think that with the proper feats they would be able to cast two spells at once.
Like so (this is a rough draft seeing how I just came up with the idea)
Except they don't have two mouths, or two brains to focus on. Having 4 arms doesn't really, IMO, preclude the ability to cast two spells at once which could be horribly unbalancing.
Except they don't have two mouths, or two brains to focus on. Having 4 arms doesn't really, IMO, preclude the ability to cast two spells at once which could be horribly unbalancing.
Neither do Dragons nor spellweavers- but they have an ability similar to multicasting. In fact spellweavers can cast up to 6 spells with only one mouth and one brain.
Thri-kreens are not human, so the potential of their brain function is somewhat unknown. It could be that one reason their mental make-up is so different is that they have a type of hive-mind which allows them to kind of piggy-back on other thri-kreens subconscious to aid in this type of spell completion- this could in theory allow them to do this.
As for unbalancing, well it does have high requirements: 20 Int and Dex, and the concentration check, but what about as an epic feat? Or add an additional new feat that could effectively be part of this chain- one that I could make would be something like segmenting your mind (only for thri-kreen) so that a portion could maintain concentration on spells for you.
As for unbalancing, well it does have high requirements: 20 Int and Dex, and the concentration check, but what about as an epic feat? Or add an additional new feat that could effectively be part of this chain- one that I could make would be something like segmenting your mind (only for thri-kreen) so that a portion could maintain concentration on spells for you.
yes but.......
the fearsome MULTIVOCE of S.S. requies 2 or more heads, dex and int 15 and 4 different feats
ok,3 of them are in the multiattack tree (but this way the requiement goes up to 4 or more arms and 3 or more natural weapons)
And even the infamousThrall of Demogorgon has a daily limit on his capacithy of taking 2 full round action in a round...
What next? Dwarves?