Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jan 08, 2006 15:11:12	all right, so working through the world maps, expanding beyond the Eastern Continent and the Tablelands i've begun to wonder at what other races there may have been before the Cleansing Wars. Races who, being either too insignificant or small in number to be targeted for cleansing, managed to survive beyond the war and begin to thrive. i wanted to pose this to the community and get feedback from everyone. what creatures and races once lived during the Green Age of Athas that are now extinct (besides the known cleansed races of course)? were beasts like unicorns, pegasii, medusa, gorgons, chimera, and hydra once prevalent? were there aquatic races like koa-toa, locathah, sahaugin, mermen, and even sea elves that eventually died out as the oceans and seas dwindled into endless expanses of choking silt? what other races might have existed in small numbers? minotaurs? centaurs? satyrs? other fey races like nymphs, dryads, nixies, and sprites? here are the current semi-intelligent to intelligent races of athas as i see it: Aarokocra Humans Elves Dwarves Muls Half-Giants and Giants Thri-kreen Halflings Pterran Ssuran Tari Tarek Belgoi Gith B'rohg Hej-kin Pyreen Scrab Silt Runners Feylaar Nikaal Slig Yuan-ti Kenku (?) Illithid (?) Cleansed Races: Pixies Gnomes Kobolds Wemics Trolls Lizardmen (sort of) Ogres Orcs Goblins Possible Extinct Races (?): Mermen Sahaugin Koa-Toa Locathah Satyrs Centuars Minotaurs Bugbears Crabmen Gnolls Hobgoblins Sirine Troglodytes all of these are lists compiled off the top of my head. feel free to add or remove or discuss any of the listed races. if you can think of any other possible races please list them as well, and try to think of the locations in which they might have lived or are still living. i'd love to see what everyone thinks about this. also, post up what sort of changes the Dark Sun setting may have wrought upon the various races as well as the societies/cultures they may have or had (tribal, advanced, etc.). looking forward to everyone's feedback.
#2 ruhl-than_sage Jan 08, 2006 15:28:01	This isn't exactly what you were thinking, but your post made me think of something. We know what the cleansed races are supposed to have been like, they might not have been exactly like the standard version, but close. What do common people think of these long bone races? They must have stories and legends about them, I was thinking this could get really funny in some cases, with kolbolds being attributed with the ability to spring forth from the stones and the need to drink the blood of liars, or other wierdness.
#3 zombiegleemax Jan 08, 2006 15:36:11	this is good too! overall i wanted to get an idea of all the races...what sort of societies did they have? where were they located primarily? what areas were their "homelands" or domains? what customs and cultural practices did they have? wemics in standard D&D are tribal and nomadic...but some of the material on Draj suggests they might of had a more advanced culture. having no Gods as a basis for the genesis of various races can really alter the cultural profile of the dead and extinct races of Athas. their development would be radically different than on other worlds. were the ogres of Athas more like Ogre Magii? more intelligent and less brutish? did the kobolds have an advanced society of psionicists? these questions and more i hope to figure out.
#4 cnahumck Jan 08, 2006 16:07:47	I am currently working on a race of "black touched" creatures that came about during the Rebirth. They are based of the Tiefling race, but touched by shadow. They have lost some of the abilities of that normally come from the racial background and have gained a "meld with shadows" ability that gives them slight concealment in in shadows and a large bonus to Hide skills. I am still working out the particulars, and have no name for the race. I figured that they would be naturally connected to the Black, and would tend to be Shadow Wizards and rogues. I really like the idea of this thread, as it allows us to add some depth to the background of the world. It gives us the oppertunity to examine and explore the ways in which the races lived together, what they traded, how they lived. This could then lead to an eventual supplement for the Green Age and the Time of Magic periods.
#5 Sysane Jan 08, 2006 18:34:54	this is good too! overall i wanted to get an idea of all the races...what sort of societies did they have? where were they located primarily? what areas were their "homelands" or domains? what customs and cultural practices did they have? wemics in standard D&D are tribal and nomadic...but some of the material on Draj suggests they might of had a more advanced culture. having no Gods as a basis for the genesis of various races can really alter the cultural profile of the dead and extinct races of Athas. their development would be radically different than on other worlds. were the ogres of Athas more like Ogre Magii? more intelligent and less brutish? did the kobolds have an advanced society of psionicists? these questions and more i hope to figure out. I wrote up a time line history of the tari awhile ago. It revealed a lot of how I pictured their society. If your interest the thread can be found Here.
#6 Pennarin Jan 09, 2006 12:01:51	Meth wants to bring to life RaFoaDK's centaurs, and has found a location for them, somewhere in the region he created. I have latched on to dopplegangers as the cleansed race of the Champion Pennarin, as per some minimal information found in RaFoaDK. Dopplegangers would have been peaceful, ordinary folk, until they were hunted down by Pennarin, a process that - not unlike the trolls in RaFoaDK - would have turned them into the infiltrators, assassins, and terrorists that they became.
#7 zombiegleemax Jan 09, 2006 12:07:33	well chimeras, basilisks, medusae, pegasi, Hydras ecc. are classical greek monsters that would likely to being spawned by the Pristine Tower an being not descendants of the halfling they myght have extinguished or adapted to the Brown Age Aquatic races were not assigned to any champion, probably the destruction of the (current) oceans was forseen or even planned by Rajaat and the task was superfluos (note that there are still small seas around the map and some races could have survived to present age) Troglodytes were likely to fall under Keltis competence wile Satyrs, driads and other fey races could fall under Sasha's but that's less likely. Centuars, Minotaurs, Bugbears, Gnolls, Hobgoblins, are all races that would be eligible for clenansing (quite to veri prolific, halfling descent, likely to roganize and defend themselves) and strongly suggest the existence of forgotten champions. The idea of forgotten or even secert champions grows in strenght if you consider more subtle races prepared and capable to hide among humans like the Yuan-ti and the dopplegangers
#8 zombiegleemax Jan 09, 2006 12:48:59	i was also thinking that some races could have been brought to the brink of extinction prior to the Cleansing Wars via wars between different cultures. perhaps hobgoblins were destroyed by the elves or subterranean races like the troglodytes were killed by the dwarves of the Green Age. i also thought that perhaps variants of Bullywugs and Grippli may exist somewhere. also creatures like the Grimlock may make for interesting modified races that developed after the Cleansing Wars...
#9 kalthandrix Jan 09, 2006 13:02:56	Its kind of funny, but with every race that was killed out, Athas had spawned two more to replace them- usually meaner and harder to kill then the last race. Kind of makes me think of a fire that burns down a forest- it may be gone but the new growth with be stronger then the last.
#10 zombiegleemax Jan 09, 2006 13:10:31	Its kind of funny, but with every race that was killed out, Athas had spawned two more to replace them- usually meaner and harder to kill then the last race. Kind of makes me think of a fire that burns down a forest- it may be gone but the new growth with be stronger then the last. Yup! Athas is quite heavy in the "natural" selection sector of evolution. Sod the creationist faction!
#11 squidfur- Jan 09, 2006 19:42:48	Meth wants to bring to life RaFoaDK's centaurs, and has found a location for them, somewhere in the region he created. Hmmmm, gonna have to check this out. Been curious about the ol' Centaur Crusher bit for some time. I have latched on to dopplegangers as the cleansed race of the Champion Pennarin, as per some minimal information found in RaFoaDK. Dopplegangers would have been peaceful, ordinary folk, until they were hunted down by Pennarin, a process that - not unlike the trolls in RaFoaDK - would have turned them into the infiltrators, assassins, and terrorists that they became. Oooh, I'm diggin' on this Penn...Me likes. :D As for my own ideas, I've kinda picked up on ol' Aphgan's idea of there having been a goblin empire based around the Silt Archipelago region (Penn built upon this as well, with his Screaming Maw write-up). This to me meant that the goblins of Athas were much more intelligent, and taking up some advice from Nyt IIRC (about the goblins of Eberron), I've slowly began to work toward a history for them. I had the idea that there might have possibly been distinct subraces of the goblins that would basically match up to the differences between goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears - so as to incorporate all 3. I've even had ideas to present a smaller ancestor of mekilotts to have a similar feel to the worg riders of other worlds. As for these ideas, though, I'm not quite sure how I want to handle them, as they can very easily become quite cheezy. Ideas?
#12 zombiegleemax Jan 09, 2006 21:05:46	This is my take on it: During the Green Age, Athas was almost exactly like the classical medieval fantasy world, with all the races as you've listed above. A look at the Meorty pic in the DS Monstrous Compendium II shows this to be the case as she's dressed in medieval regalia. Then there's that other undead spirit dressed like the classical paladin. Now, since Greyhawk is the original and the default DnD setting, I'd probably go with the idea that Athas was once near identical to Oerth, with it's own political climate, and the most important aspect- psionics. Since martial arts exists in Athas' current timeline, I'd also say that there was an oriental culture once thrived on Athas, and so I'd toss in creatures from Oriental Adventures as well, for long extinct or cleansed races. Certain types of undead, like Yuki-on-na could still be haunting ruins on some eastern land on your maps. Also, as it's said in the Mind Flayer entry, Mind Flayers have seeded a lot of worlds across the multiverse, and there could still be an Illithid colony and Elder Brain thriving in some subterranean region. Perhaps this was the true purpose of the Black Spine adventure- the Githyanki have learned of this colony and have come to eradicate it, but took a wrong turn at the Ringing Mountains somewhere. Let's suppose that the Illithids have come here, because Athas is so rich in psionic power and slaves are much tastier here, plus it augments their own powers. With mind flayers comes half-illithid creatures and voidmind creatures. Add the phrenic creature template to these and you've got some nasty challenging encounters.
#13 Pennarin Jan 09, 2006 21:35:10	Squid, I remember quicky typing up info on the goblin empire in Eberron for the boards, so if Nyt did also mention it on his side it only indicates that that detail struck a chord with fans who are fed up with primitive goblinoid empires populated by brutes and reinforced by high reproduction rates. The model of a plague, basically. If the other races weren't there to cull their numbers, they'd eradicate themselves. I believe that on Athas every race had a chance at nobility, or failing that had a chance to be radically different from their classic D&D counterparts: trolls as hill-dwelling sun-worshiping farmers, tall, gray-skinned, and proud; goblins as element-worshipers (as per Afghan's project) who create empires with high levels of societal structure. I'm seeing the old goblin civilization as a cross between amerindians, polynesians, egyptian priests (for the religious side), and mongols. Proudness, facial tattoos, bloodlines, achievements, closeness with the elements and their daily worship, the creation of powerful element-related artifacts (as per Afghan's project).
#14 Zardnaar Jan 09, 2006 22:08:13	If some managed to ressurect and Athasian Troll I would probably use the stats for a skull crusher ogre than the classic regenerating monster we all know and love/hate. Then again that Grave Circumstances Adventure from Dungeon magazine circa 1996 had a Troll in it that regenerated. I figured it was a mutant one created with left over body parts and was a side effect of defiling.
#15 Oninotaki Jan 10, 2006 15:25:31	ok here is my take on the races you listed below...... all right, so working through the world maps, expanding beyond the Eastern Continent and the Tablelands i've begun to wonder at what other races there may have been before the Cleansing Wars. Races who, being either too insignificant or small in number to be targeted for cleansing, managed to survive beyond the war and begin to thrive. i wanted to pose this to the community and get feedback from everyone. what creatures and races once lived during the Green Age of Athas that are now extinct (besides the known cleansed races of course)? were beasts like unicorns, pegasii, medusa, gorgons, chimera, and hydra once prevalent? were there aquatic races like koa-toa, locathah, sahaugin, mermen, and even sea elves that eventually died out as the oceans and seas dwindled into endless expanses of choking silt? what other races might have existed in small numbers? minotaurs? centaurs? satyrs? other fey races like nymphs, dryads, nixies, and sprites? here are the current semi-intelligent to intelligent races of athas as i see it: Aarokocra-have wings from their backs, not their arms, otherwise the same Humans-same Elves-same Dwarves-same Muls-same Half-Giants and Giants-same, been debating on getting rid of the +2 natural armor bonus athas.org gives them and instead giving them powerful build in addition to large(remember folks they used to be signifigantly bigger then hill giants)am thinking of storm giants being the base that giants all come from Thri-kreen-like the new art for them better, otherwise the same Halflings-same Pterran -same, but they are descendants of lizardmen Ssuran-same but they are descendants of lizardmen Tari-same, but not a lot of thought given too Tarek-same, might be descendents of orcs Belgoi-same Gith-same B'rohg-same Hej-kin-same, maybe descendants of gnomes Pyreen-same Scrab-same Silt Runners-same, maybe descendants of goblins Feylaar-same Nikaal-same Slig-same Yuan-ti-same Kenku (?)-yes in my campaign, otherwise same Illithid (?)-dont know yet Cleansed Races: Pixies-same, but include all sprites Gnomes-same as phb Kobolds-need to be different, to much dragon heritage, maybe treat as marruspawn from sandstorm or perhaps just bugbears Wemics-have them as centaurs, wemics are their descendants Trolls-treat as goliaths Lizardmen (sort of)-same as mm1 Ogres-actually orge mage, created martial arts and are the source for any ancient oriental things in my darksun campaign Orcs-treat as halfgiants in xphb Goblins-either hobgoblins or blues, havent decided yet, but leaning towards hobgoblins lead by blues Possible Extinct Races (?): Mermen-did not exist Sahaugin-existed, alive in one of the last bodies of water Koa-Toa-existed/dead Locathah-existed/dead Satyrs- Centuars-where the ancestors of wemics/cleansed Minotaurs-did not exist Bugbears-possible what I use for kolblds, if not then they did not exist Crabmen-?? where are they from?? Gnolls-did not exist Hobgoblins-what I will most likely use for basic goblins Sirine-did not exist Troglodytes-existed as subspecies of lizard men/cleansed all of these are lists compiled off the top of my head. feel free to add or remove or discuss any of the listed races. if you can think of any other possible races please list them as well, and try to think of the locations in which they might have lived or are still living. i'd love to see what everyone thinks about this. also, post up what sort of changes the Dark Sun setting may have wrought upon the various races as well as the societies/cultures they may have or had (tribal, advanced, etc.). looking forward to everyone's feedback. Those are my rough ideas. My basic concept of athas in the begining of the green age is of every race being regal, noble, intelligent, and civilized. The standard D&D concept of them mostly being stories told during the cleasning wars.
#16 Sysane Jan 10, 2006 16:05:21	It could be that the rhulisti did change themselves into other races beyond "The 15" but they may not have survive past those early centuries before Rajaat and the Cleansing Wars. There could have been wars, plauges, famines, and natural disasters which could have wiped out or decreased the numbers of entire species in those early times.
#17 kalthandrix Jan 10, 2006 22:06:09	True Uh, I guess I got nothing else- Long day at work.
#18 zombiegleemax Jan 10, 2006 22:40:51	just to give you an idea on my take of the various possible races... Aarokocra - original Rebirth race Humans - original Rebirth race Elves - original Rebirth race Dwarves - original Rebirth race Muls - specific to the current age (descendad from human/dwarf hybrid, sterile) Half-Giants - specific to the current age (descended from human/giant stock) Giants - original Rebirth race Thri-kreen - a Blue Age race Halflings - a Blue Age race (progenitors of all species) Pterran - original Rebirth race Ssuran - may have evolved from troglodytes Tari - original Rebirth race (or perhaps a delineation of early human stock) Tarek - original Rebirth race Belgoi - another delineation of Green Age humans (developed in the early part of the Age of Sorcerer Kings?) Gith - 3 schools of thought - 1) a transplanted extraplanar race (not for the hard-core purist); or 2) - original Rebirth race; or 3) - perhaps a later delineation of the elves B'rohg - some form of Giant kin perhaps? a new race? Hej-kin - perhaps a degenerate form of dwarves Pyreen - guardians of the Rebirth races Scrab - a variant of Thri-kreen geneology? Silt Runners - their hatred of elves may point to some sort of goblinoid ancestry? Feylaar - a new race Nikaal - descendants of the lizardmen, a Rebirth race, OR a Blue Age race. Slig - perhaps from humans? maybe dwarves? Yuan-ti - mutated new race, or a branch from human stock Kenku (?) - cousins to aarokocra, perhaps a common ancestor Illithid (?) - some might say a Rebirth race, others might say a sentient life-shaped creation, others an extraplanar transplant Cleansed Races: Pixies - original Rebirth race Gnomes - original Rebirth race Kobolds - original Rebirth race Wemics - original Rebirth race Trolls - original Rebirth race Lizardmen (sort of) - original Rebirth race Ogres - original Rebirth race Orcs - original Rebirth race Goblins - original Rebirth race Possible Extinct Races (?): Mermen - a relatively short-lived human offshoot, died out due to the seas drying up. Sahaugin - a nasty elven offshoot, also extinct due to the receding of the world's oceans Koa-Toa - a cousin to the Sahaugin, extinct for the same reasons Locathah - same as the Koa-Toa above, or maybe killed by mermen. Satyrs - an odd human offshot, relatively short lived, dwindling of forests forced them into arid areas they couldn't adapt to. Centuars - allied with the Satyrs, but ran into the same problems, maybe killed by another race that invaded the Green Age forests long ago (Orcs or Ogres) Minotaurs - an offshoot or maybe early predacessor to the beasthead giants Bugbears - a delineation of the goblin bloodline, probably had a hard time competing with the other goblinoids, maybe some sort of war between orcs or something. Crabmen - a water dwelling offshoot of the original Blue Age Thri-Kreen, died out with the oceans. Gnolls - a human offshoot, too small in number, and poor reproductive survival rates. Hobgoblins - larger relatives to goblins, perhaps not a big enough population to qualify as a race, but mixed in with goblin societies and thus were annihilated alongside them. Sirine - water dwelling brethren of the pyreen, didn't really become extinct, just became regular pyreen (maybe representative or gaurdians of the water-dwelling races). Troglodytes - subterranean offshoot of lizardmen, hunted to extinction by dwarves. as far as beasts go, i remember a thread debating the existence of horses and such, everyone can still play around with that idea. overall horses are sort of redundant, and if they did exist, they're extinct now. related equine like pegasi and unicorns weren't native (the non-magic nature of athas during the Green-Age isn't condusive to such creatures). gorgons might have been hunted to extinction due to their hides if they did exist, but instead of a PETRIFYING breath weapon, a potent paralytic one instead. medusa never existed. owlbears, maybe at one time but they died out with the forests. bulettes might still be around, but they might end up as food for drakes. any aquatic creature is long gone now. worms of different sorts might still exist in deep subterranean caverns under the tablelands and beyond. no drow...well...at least none catalogued. elves make good magic-users, and there is the slight possibility a large group went into hiding during the Cleansing Wars beneath the surface, lead by a powerful wizard...some might say that the Dark Spider (ToA pg. 100) is a degenerate mutated descendant of these original elves...or not. what else? i could spend days, but my basic rule of thumb is any creature that has NATURAL spell-like abilities is NOT a native or natural creature to athas, and if it IS, then those spell-like powers are replaced by psionic abilities or more mundane attack forms (petrifying to paralytic, etc.). wyverns may still hang around somewhere too.
#19 squidfur- Jan 11, 2006 0:06:58	just to give you an idea on my take of the various possible races... >>> Ssuran - may have evolved from troglodytes >>> Troglodytes - subterranean offshoot of lizardmen, hunted to extinction by dwarves. hmmm. kinda diggin' this for some reason Illithid (?) - some might say a Rebirth race, others might say a sentient life-shaped creation, others an extraplanar transplant still gotta say I like Penn's version the best. you can find some of that material here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=449117 Sahaugin - a nasty elven offshoot, also extinct due to the receding of the world's oceans Koa-Toa - a cousin to the Sahaugin, extinct for the same reasons >>> for some reason it has always felt right to me to have these two species to existing on athas, at least at one time. i could definately see some few survivors in some distant body of water, though. just a thought. bulettes might still be around, but they might end up as food for drakes. seems like these are specifally mentioned in one product or another, so i'd say they definately exist.
#20 zombiegleemax Jan 11, 2006 1:29:19	i'm actually a big fan of the "illithid on athas school". :P :D back in the days i had developed an athasian illithid uncannily like the illithid idea that penn developed. though my version lived in the series of cave systems that run beneath the tablelands from the jagged cliffs to the silt sea. penn's is much more refined and has much better historical detail. i'd cast my vote in favor of illithids on athas. i also like the idea of Green Age elves being primarily sea-faring in nature with some inland cities for royalty and the privileged (i think someone had mentioned this idea before). each could have been from the two different factions of elves, the sea-farers and the city-folk. the more cosmopolitan elves, after the fall of Alaron (i can never remeber the elven kings name completely) were chased from their destroyed and burning cities by Albeorn; and joined the nomadic maritime elves, lead by Corannu Starunner (a fairly fitting name for a pirate or privateer, eh?). these survivors eventually became the tribes and clans of modern athas when the seas and oceans faded...and Corannu and Alaron faded to myth and legend...
#21 Sysane Jan 11, 2006 8:22:11	Crazy theory. Some of the newer race may have come about do to inter racial breeding. During the time of the Cleansing Wars some of the now extinct races could have gathered together in desperation which may have caused unlikely cross or half breeds. Tareks may have been the result of the coupling of dwarves and orcs. Silt runners the result of kobolds and lizardfolk.
#22 kalthandrix Jan 11, 2006 17:48:25	Crazy theory. Some of the newer race may have come about do to inter racial breeding. During the time of the Cleansing Wars some of the now extinct races could have gathered together in desperation which may have caused unlikely cross or half breeds. Tareks may have been the result of the coupling of dwarves and orcs. Silt runners the result of kobolds and lizardfolk. That is not an unreasonable idea. It is a better idea then just assuming that all of the races were either rebirth races or chance freaks of nature.
#23 zombiegleemax Jan 11, 2006 18:31:10	i'd definitely agree as well, especially when it comes to the goblinoid races and such.
#24 zombiegleemax Jan 11, 2006 19:45:43	i'm actually a big fan of the "illithid on athas school". :P :D back in the days i had developed an athasian illithid uncannily like the illithid idea that penn developed. though my version lived in the series of cave systems that run beneath the tablelands from the jagged cliffs to the silt sea. penn's is much more refined and has much better historical detail. i'd cast my vote in favor of illithids on athas. i also like the idea of Green Age elves being primarily sea-faring in nature with some inland cities for royalty and the privileged (i think someone had mentioned this idea before). each could have been from the two different factions of elves, the sea-farers and the city-folk. the more cosmopolitan elves, after the fall of Alaron (i can never remeber the elven kings name completely) were chased from their destroyed and burning cities by Albeorn; and joined the nomadic maritime elves, lead by Corannu Starunner (a fairly fitting name for a pirate or privateer, eh?). these survivors eventually became the tribes and clans of modern athas when the seas and oceans faded...and Corannu and Alaron faded to myth and legend... Illithids totally fit with the whole look/theme of Dark Sun. Psionics, slavery, aberrations... I like the idea of the subterranean cave system. However, I'd probably go with the setup of Oryndoll in FR's Underdark, where it's not a network of caves that leads directly to the city, but rather that psionic teleport is needed to get there, and to the Elder Brain. Their primary race of slaves here could be Gith, but with the Voidmind creature template from MMIII. I'd probably also make Belgois their other primary slaves. Some of the nasty plant varieties could also serve as guardians for their cave systems, just say that the roots of these plants, which are visible from below ground animate and grab trespassers. Since Illithids also came from way far away, you could also drop some other, more conventional DnD races here, saying the Illithids brought them with them and they just bred over the years. Races like say, Grimlocks and Gibberlings.
#25 Silverblade_The_Enchanter Jan 11, 2006 21:35:09	I take a different view of Athas entirely but... In regard to Underdark creatures, if you consider that the waters of Athas have retreated to deep underground, it maybe likely that many subetteranean creatures were DROWNED en masse?
#26 zombiegleemax Jan 11, 2006 22:32:50	That puts a funny image in my head of the oceans and seas going all "oh noes! the sun got red! there's a dragon! quick everyine, flow to the caves!" anyway, no. if the caves were caves when there was a lot of water, they would still be caves when there is a whole lot less water. but invading water . . . heh hee "give us your women and valuables, or we'll get your toes wet!"
#27 Silverblade_The_Enchanter Jan 12, 2006 21:13:01	Desertification causes water to retreat underground, it doesn't simpyl vanish (well not without a whole load of magic), that's mentioned in one of the Wanderer's passages IIRC that the water retreated below ground. Since subterranean races didn't come out and conquer the now pathetic surface world (only the SKs and dragon would be any challenge to illithids drow etc), this suggests they drowned or were badly affected by troubles, seems logical?
#28 Oninotaki Jan 12, 2006 23:43:22	thats not a bad idea......
#29 zombiegleemax Jan 12, 2006 23:55:23	true, water does recede beneath the surface in most instances; but other processes such as evaporation and absorption also play a role (at least in real-world processes, but in real-world processes the sun is a red giant before it is a blue dwarf). eventually precipitation would cease and most water would be stuck un pockets underground. the silt would probably soak up large amounts of water as well and trap it which would case a slow "sinking" of liquid water into caverns and such beneath Athas' surface rather than a fast flash-flood of water. some areas might have experienced something like this but it certainly wouldn't be widespread. just for fun, i did a quick lil mock-up of where i would imagine caches of water to be beneath the surface of Athas. these various cisterns would be pretty deep below and networks of watery caverns probably connect some of these resorvoirs together with smaller branching dry caves and tunnels interweaving them all as a whole...that is assuming you use an Athasian equivalent of an "underdark".
#30 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jan 12, 2006 23:55:38	I take a different view of Athas entirely but... In regard to Underdark creatures, if you consider that the waters of Athas have retreated to deep underground, it maybe likely that many subetteranean creatures were DROWNED en masse? Actually, I tend to work with the idea that the Brown Tide is what did in the Oceans. The Pristine Tower didn't really do it's job completely right, and merely slowed the process, as well as made the Brown Tide more or less sink below the surface. After the oceans were finally consumed, the algae-like thing that is the Brown Tide died off, and its remains became a fine dust, what is now known as Silt. What did the Brown Tide do with the oceans? Who knows, odds are it was a lifeshaped thing, and could have done any number of things. And yes, this means I believe that even without Rajaat and the Sorcerer-Kings, Athas was doomed -- because the Brown Tide was something that was initiated before Rajaat was even born... it's something from the Blue Age.
#31 zombiegleemax Jan 12, 2006 23:58:26	Desertification causes water to retreat underground, it doesn't simpyl vanish (well not without a whole load of magic), that's mentioned in one of the Wanderer's passages IIRC that the water retreated below ground. Since subterranean races didn't come out and conquer the now pathetic surface world (only the SKs and dragon would be any challenge to illithids drow etc), this suggests they drowned or were badly affected by troubles, seems logical? Drow are only native to forgotten realms. And if you check out the Wake of the Ravager Pc game Illithids are a part of the storyline. I believe Wake of The Ravager is also a 2e box set. My asumption would be that very few races were wiped out. The ones that did get wiped out were only a few that and they were the ones that matched a couple of the champion of Rajaat's Genecidal ability. Other wise it would be pretty freaking hard! The fact that ORCs got wiped out is a huge task in itself. It would pretty much be assumed that a lot of races that exsist on other worlds simply never exsisted on this world. Drow are very good examples of this.
#32 ruhl-than_sage Jan 13, 2006 0:50:15	When desertification occurs water doesn't retreat underground. Its allready underground, the desertification occurs on the surface and underground aquifers remain. Future rain fall soaks into the ground and feed the aquifers. There is no flooding effect. If there wasn't water their allready it doesn't aquire water because of desertification.
#33 ruhl-than_sage Jan 13, 2006 0:54:06	Actually, I tend to work with the idea that the Brown Tide is what did in the Oceans. The Pristine Tower didn't really do it's job completely right, and merely slowed the process, as well as made the Brown Tide more or less sink below the surface. After the oceans were finally consumed, the algae-like thing that is the Brown Tide died off, and its remains became a fine dust, what is now known as Silt. What did the Brown Tide do with the oceans? Who knows, odds are it was a lifeshaped thing, and could have done any number of things. And yes, this means I believe that even without Rajaat and the Sorcerer-Kings, Athas was doomed -- because the Brown Tide was something that was initiated before Rajaat was even born... it's something from the Blue Age. I've never understood that interpretation of the brown tide. From the descriptions I always thought that during the blue age there was very little land , basically just where the mountian ranges are now. Then when the brown tide occured it was basically land spreading out absorbing the sea. When they stoped the brown tide something more resembling the current athas was left, but all the areas that are now silt were water. Then through the process of the cleansing wars and borys rampage the sea of silt was created.
#34 Kamelion Jan 13, 2006 4:36:17	Drow are only native to forgotten realms. No they aren't. They are also native to Greyhawk (where they actually first appeared) and feature in Eberron now as well. I believe Wake of The Ravager is also a 2e box set. No, it was just a PC game. It never featured as an RPG product.
#35 Sysane Jan 13, 2006 9:03:49	If you subscribe that water retreated beneath Athas' surface perhaps the Athasian underdark is more aquatic than other worlds. Instead of vast dry and open tunnels and cave complexes there are enormous interlinking water filled caverns. Instead of drow, perhaps all manners of aquatic races and beings would populate this subterranean sea realm. An interesting concept if you ask me.
#36 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jan 13, 2006 9:36:08	I've never understood that interpretation of the brown tide. From the descriptions I always thought that during the blue age there was very little land , basically just where the mountian ranges are now. Then when the brown tide occured it was basically land spreading out absorbing the sea. When they stoped the brown tide something more resembling the current athas was left, but all the areas that are now silt were water. Then through the process of the cleansing wars and borys rampage the sea of silt was created. I always viewed the Brown Tide as a sickly-looking life-shaped algae that was consuming the oceans. And that the Nature-benders could have easily been the responsible parties for this devistation. Basically, the Rhulisti had developed a technology that doomed their world (you know, like humans have developed technology that could easily doom this world). The Brown Tide spurned the need for the Pristine Tower (which altered the sun drastically), and the Rebirth (which indirectly is the leading cause for things like Rajaat).
#37 Sysane Jan 13, 2006 9:49:30	Good stuff on the brown tide in this old thread. Brown Tide
#38 zombiegleemax Jan 13, 2006 10:21:11	In my never-to-see-the-light-of-day Blue Shrine expansion I had the Pixies split into two main groups, one in the now-vanished forests stretching from the Shrine into what is today the Dead Lands and the other group on the far shores of the Sunrise Sea. I honestly hadn't given any thought at all to nixies and grigs, having read "pixies" literally as being the only fey race, but I'm sure they could fit in somewhere.
#39 zombiegleemax Jan 17, 2006 3:20:14	BTW, looking in the Dungeon 110 issue, Dark Sun DM's Guide, the procession pic shows some kind of centauroid leading the procession...what kind of creature is that? I thought centaurs didn't exist in Dark Sun.
#40 Kamelion Jan 17, 2006 3:51:01	BTW, looking in the Dungeon 110 issue, Dark Sun DM's Guide, the procession pic shows some kind of centauroid leading the procession...what kind of creature is that? I thought centaurs didn't exist in Dark Sun. :D Apparently... that is Hamanu. The artist was allegedly told that Hamanu has the appearance of half-man, half-lion, and chose the wrong halves. If you look closely, you'll see that he has the body of a lion - you can see the bottom of what would be his mane poking from beneath his armour...
#41 ruhl-than_sage Jan 17, 2006 9:30:53	BTW, looking in the Dungeon 110 issue, Dark Sun DM's Guide, the procession pic shows some kind of centauroid leading the procession...what kind of creature is that? I thought centaurs didn't exist in Dark Sun. Wemics did, though they were cleansed.
#42 kalthandrix Jan 17, 2006 10:25:36	Wemics did, though they were cleansed. They were- this is once again an example on how this setting has so many issues- one han is not talking to the other- or in this case the artist did not care enough about what he was doing to do the research and the person who OKed the picture also was lacking in the knowledge of the setting.
#43 squidfur- Jan 18, 2006 2:58:57	I thought centaurs didn't exist in Dark Sun. If you subscribe to RaFoaDK, they actually did exist, but were destroyed by the Centaur Crusher. IIRC he's never actually named as a Champion, so IMO he very well might be a pre-Cleansing War conquerer who helped to destroy one the fewer numbered races.
#44 zombiegleemax Jan 18, 2006 4:52:23	If you subscribe to RaFoaDK, they actually did exist, but were destroyed by the Centaur Crusher. IIRC he's never actually named as a Champion, so IMO he very well might be a pre-Cleansing War conquerer who helped to destroy one the fewer numbered races. Well, that's the key word- did exist. I dunno, without completely dismissing the picture out of hand, can anyone provide an in-game explanation for that? Here's my take: He's leading the procession, and this version of Dark Sun is the one that takes place 300 years later, in the 194th King's Age (though wouldn't actually be closer to the 193rd King's Age, doing the math?). So maybe he was a Wemic, descended from a tribe long thought extinct, and he's leading a slave tribe into a city to openly challenge the ruling authority by saying "You thought your Cleansing Wars were successful? Ha! I have at thee!" And this picture could be a representation that said long-forgotten, mythical, cleansed and what-have-you races are beginning a slow comeback. Not the best explanation, but it fits with the thread. If anyone's got something better, let's hear it, could end up becoming a starting point for a new campaign.
#45 huntercc Jan 18, 2006 7:24:20	Actually, as Kamelion mentioned earlier, it was meant to be Hamanu but the artist got the half-lion half-man parts reversed. So instead of looking closer to a minotaur-thing, we got more of a centaur-thing.
#46 Pennarin Jan 18, 2006 7:59:14	huntercc is right, its kinda silly to seek an "in-game explanation" for that, there isn't one: its an artist/coordinator screw-up. It was confirmed by Paizo.
#47 zombiegleemax Jan 18, 2006 11:39:24	I always viewed the Brown Tide as a sickly-looking life-shaped algae that was consuming the oceans. And that the Nature-benders could have easily been the responsible parties for this devistation. Basically, the Rhulisti had developed a technology that doomed their world (you know, like humans have developed technology that could easily doom this world). The Brown Tide spurned the need for the Pristine Tower (which altered the sun drastically), and the Rebirth (which indirectly is the leading cause for things like Rajaat). This is rather how I saw it. Simply a virulent type of algae, that needed a bit more ultraviolet light to cook. It really seemed to be an exageration real world red tides that happen now and again.
#48 Kamelion Jan 18, 2006 13:39:55	It really seemed to be an exageration real world red tides that happen now and again. This is my exact take on the Brown Tide. Aggressive life-shaped phytoplankton run madly amok.