However .......
What happens to one when the SK dies ? (eg Kalak, Ablach-Re etc)
Does the living vortex die ?
If it lives, is there the potential for another creature, champion or "other" to have this vortex attached / bonded in order to grant spells ??
With spidery fingers firmly anchored in all of the elemental planes and the prime material plane, the living vortex is a continuous conduit of magical energy. The sorcerer-kings are, until their deaths, a source of elemental magical power funneled directly to them by their living vortex, a creature they don't even realize exists.
With the passage of centuries, the living vortices have become extinct. Therefore, no future dragons will gain the ability to transfer elemental magic to templars. The original sorcerer-kings will take that privilege with them to their graves.
From this, it sounds like the "living" vortices are all dead. They'll continue channeling magic until the sorcerer-kings are dead as well, but they don't exist as independent creatures anymore.
On the other hand, didn't the recent Dungeon/Dragon Dark Sun adaptation feature new sorcerer-kings who could somehow grant spells?
Unless athas.org changes that.
An idea i came up with was that the lvs are related to lifeshaped products of the blue age. to combat the clerical powers of the fire worshippers, the lifeshapers created something. it wasnt the living vortex itself, but rather something that was alive and produced the LVs and then died. or maybe the naturebenders made it to supplement their fire allies. or made it and joined the fire clerics when the LVs went off and did there own thing. and when the champs were made, rajaat either incited the original LVs still floating around to attach, or re-created the original life-shaped item.
obviously not all agree with it though
You may be a hater of the new update, but it does have some cool ideas worth mining. I'd always thought that Atzetuk would end up becoming a power in his own right anyway.
I'd always thought that Atzetuk would end up becoming a power in his own right anyway.
I always figured Atzetuk to be a complete figurehead who would get removed when he became too much of a nuisance. Goes to show the different views of a setting ;)
I always figured Atzetuk to be a complete figurehead who would get removed when he became too much of a nuisance. Goes to show the different views of a setting ;)
I have to say that I was of the same opinion as darksoulman on this one.
Dragon Kings, pages 10 and 11:
From this, it sounds like the "living" vortices are all dead. They'll continue channeling magic until the sorcerer-kings are dead as well, but they don't exist as independent creatures anymore.
On the other hand, didn't the recent Dungeon/Dragon Dark Sun adaptation feature new sorcerer-kings who could somehow grant spells?
I've always thought of the "Living" Vortices, as over time, having grown and grown, and perished, and become as fossilized creatures, and that by their very nature. That the right Epic Life Shaping / Psionic Seed combination could allow the creation of a new one. Tied to a new Advanced Being.. Dragon or Avangion. But that a new one might have limited powers for many centuries, until it too fossilizes, and reaches full potency as a conduit in doing so. I say add a Psionic Seed in there, because I think a mental component is a must, also, it's the perfect fit for a shaper/telepath to make. And the Athasian Life shaping quality is perfect to give the creature life... (Makes you wonder what Raistlin might have done if he'd gotten ahold of the pristine tower?
)Going by the Dungeon #110 explanation, I'd say one still functions for Atzetuk as he was able to transform himself into a dragon, but also using lots of sacrifices.
You may be a hater of the new update, but it does have some cool ideas worth mining. I'd always thought that Atzetuk would end up becoming a power in his own right anyway.
That is the Dragon version. Personally I go with the box set over the mag. I see him as a puppet as of now, but there is no telling what may happen. He could very well go over to the area on the mudflat that was off-limits and find something there that would reveil the truth, or, and this would make a cool adventure, some interprising group of PC's from Draj free him from the clutches of the psions and help him maintain the city-state.
I always figured Atzetuk to be a complete figurehead who would get removed when he became too much of a nuisance. Goes to show the different views of a setting.
From City-State of Draj, there's an elf lurking in the shadows that could influence Atzetuk's fate - Kael Stormseeker. There is also the Queen of Draj, who could testify that Atzetuk is not her and Tec's son. GMs have a lot of options here, and some meddlesome PCs could definitely stir up a lot of trouble.
First off Raam has a civil war two years before kalak dies, when abalache-re disappears and is considered dead. The war escalates, drawing in urik and draj (m'ke has close ties to both cities, as per dune trader). Also, an elf horde joins the mix. Maraxes of Dakara (see will and the way) uses this as a chance to take over, manipulating all involved. End result is that Maraxes faction joins with the draj, fights off the urikites and elves, and Maraxes becomes ruler of raam. Think tithian but without agis, and more draconian and effective, with aid from draj (it's stated in dune trader draj just wanted stability, but urik wanted conquest).
The end result is that within a couple years raam is stable and closely allied to draj. it begins to prosper.
fast-forward and tec dies and atzetuk is put on the throne.
Maraxes is pretty entrenched and powerful and raam has gotten strong again. With tec gone, Raam invades (could argue that maraxes had tec's favor and could be considered an heir, or just that maraxes is greedy and sees a chance to flex raam's muscles without ******* off a sorcerer-king). Atzetuk loves his draj and wants to save it. he's also found out about tionaca and the two've been talking. the two flee the city together to find a way to drive out the occupiers.
enter a modified troll's grave chasm adventure, but at the core is atzetuk travelling to the chasm to become a full draogn by using the library there. tionaca is helping him. in the end, she stabs him in the back, becomes the full dragon herself, returns to draj, ices the invaders, and sets herself up as Tionaca, Empress of Draj and the Two Moons.
maraxes' forces are either totally destroyed or flee back to raam. just in time for dregoth's invasion.
atzetuk is dead, enslaved, or whatever.
your mileage may vary
the way i have my notes set up, sorcerer-monarchs may die, disappear, or get deposed, but they're almost always replaced by someone just as bad or powoerful. or at the very least where a city becomes free like tyr, another tyrant appears somewhere else to balance it out.
gone:
kalak, abalache-re, nibenay, lalali-puy, tectuktitlay, borys
new:
farcluun in dasaraches, maraxes in raam, temmnya shom in nibenay and gulg, tionaca in draj, sadira kalid-ma in kalidnay (sadira used the orbs), tithian in ur draxa.
those are just the core tablelands peoples.
nic
Going by the Dungeon #110 explanation, I'd say one still functions for Atzetuk as he was able to transform himself into a dragon, but also using lots of sacrifices.
You may be a hater of the new update, but it does have some cool ideas worth mining. I'd always thought that Atzetuk would end up becoming a power in his own right anyway.
That is the Dragon version. Personally I go with the box set over the mag. I see him as a puppet as of now, but there is no telling what may happen. He could very well go over to the area on the mudflat that was off-limits and find something there that would reveil the truth, or, and this would make a cool adventure, some interprising group of PC's from Draj free him from the clutches of the psions and help him maintain the city-state.
I don't see what a living vortex would have to do with Atezuk becoming a dragon. The vortices, or at least the connection they provided, are necissary to power the spells of templars, not successfully cast defiler metamorphosis. I havent seen dragon #110 so if a vortice is needed for something else there, I don't know.
Anyway, the unlikely often happens. I don't see what is so far fetched about his surviving the plot of the priests, and eventullay becoming a dragon. In the 2e revised boxed set, he is already seen as king and is a relitivly accomplished psionicist. They also mention how he already getting out of hand. I say the priesthood throws a coup, and attempts to have the king assasinated, but they fail.
Anyway, the unlikely often happens. I don't see what is so far fetched about his surviving the plot of the priests, and eventullay becoming a dragon. In the 2e revised boxed set, he is already seen as king and is a relitivly accomplished psionicist. They also mention how he already getting out of hand. I say the priesthood throws a coup, and attempts to have the king assasinated, but they fail.
Every day, the youth gains more and more confidence. Every day, his belief in his own divinity strengthens. Add to this the youth’s increasing mastery of the Way and it spells trouble for the secret leaders.
Note that although he's gaining in power, he's still a youth - and as such, can hardly be too powerful [in level terms]. Also note that he has exactly zero magical power, which is the biggest part of becoming a dragon. If you ignore advancement rules completely, sure you can make him into a dragon...but at least the way I see it, a youth can't do that, he needs many years in order to get the power necessary. There is simply no way for him to gain the needed magical and psionic power to start the transformation in quite a few years.
Note that although he's gaining in power, he's still a youth - and as such, can hardly be too powerful [in level terms]. Also note that he has exactly zero magical power, which is the biggest part of becoming a dragon. If you ignore advancement rules completely, sure you can make him into a dragon...but at least the way I see it, a youth can't do that, he needs many years in order to get the power necessary. There is simply no way for him to gain the needed magical and psionic power to start the transformation in quite a few years.
Lets not forget that if you were to follow that he becomes a dragon its within the span of 300 years. That would be more than enough time to master magic and achieve the first level of the metamorphosis.
Note that although he's gaining in power, he's still a youth - and as such, can hardly be too powerful [in level terms]. Also note that he has exactly zero magical power, which is the biggest part of becoming a dragon. If you ignore advancement rules completely, sure you can make him into a dragon...but at least the way I see it, a youth can't do that, he needs many years in order to get the power necessary. There is simply no way for him to gain the needed magical and psionic power to start the transformation in quite a few years.
At the time of Kalak's death Tithian was very weak psionically (wild talent at best), and had no magic.
Less than 10 years later he was a very powerful mindbender and a potent defiler, potentially powerful enough to use defiler metamorphosis, if he had known about it.
300 years is plenty of time for Atzetuk.
In free year 10 he is a 6th level psionicist, and critical part of the moon priest's plans. By the time they decide to cut their losses and eliminate him, he could easily have enough popular/political support, and enough personal power to make that a very difficult proposition.
At the time of Kalak's death Tithian was very weak psionically (wild talent at best), and had no magic.
Less than 10 years later he was a very powerful mindbender and a potent defiler, potentially powerful enough to use defiler metamorphosis, if he had known about it.
For the record, Tithian wasn't anywhere near the level(s) he would have needed to be in order to cast the first metamorphosis spell.
For the record, Tithian wasn't anywhere near the level(s) he would have needed to be in order to cast the first metamorphosis spell.
Indeed. Let's not go too far with the level orgy.
300 years is plenty of time for Atzetuk.
I didn't read your original post properly - I wasn't aware that you were talking about that time period in question, I was thinking about Free Year 10-11. Obviously I agree that 300 years is enough, sorry about that
In free year 10 he is a 6th level psionicist, and critical part of the moon priest's plans. By the time they decide to cut their losses and eliminate him, he could easily have enough popular/political support, and enough personal power to make that a very difficult proposition.
That's one interpretation, and perfectly valid (although I think the popular/political support is far more important than personal power). I don't agree personally, but that's besides the point.
Instead, why not just make the sorcerer-kings demigods in 3rd edition terms? That gives them the power to grant spells as well as a host of other useful abilities without making them completely unkillable. PC dragons or avangions wouldn't gain any divine ranks for centuries, which would nicely establish how the millennia-old sorcerer-kings are more powerful than newly created advanced beings.
Also, it would be wierd retroactively making sorcerkings demi-gods. It would make alot of the events that happen in 2e products impossible. Demi-gods had inferior power to grant spells, but had far more personal power than any sorcerer king. If the socerer kings were actual gods, it sorta blows what Dregoth has been trying to do for the last 2,000 years out of the water.
A few changes have to be assumed when moving to 3/3.5E, but huge changes, that require rewritting tons of old canon material, produce far more inconsistences than they are worth, in my opinion.
I didn't read your original post properly - I wasn't aware that you were talking about that time period in question, I was thinking about Free Year 10-11. Obviously I agree that 300 years is enough, sorry about that
I probably should have been more clear, but if I was talking about FY 10-11, wouldn't the bigger problem be Atzetuk alignment, which is NG?
People can be corrupted (or enlightend, depending on your take), but going from NG, to the kind of evil necissary to be willing to drain the life forces from hundreds or thousands of people to power a spell doesn't seem plausible in a few years.
I think ripvanwormer is suggesting we use the 3E god rules without actually making the SKs gods. Sounds good, but lots of the basic capabilities of the gods are too far-fetched, too god-like to correctly represent what the SKs can do. Also, and this may not be evident at first glance, but fans are not gonna like it if we use rules for gods but attach a warning sign to it saying "Does not actually mean SKs are god, just that thay have the exact same powers."
Yes, that's what I meant, but you bring up a good point.
At the time of Kalak's death Tithian was very weak psionically (wild talent at best), and had no magic.
Less than 10 years later he was a very powerful mindbender and a potent defiler, potentially powerful enough to use defiler metamorphosis, if he had known about it.
Also, lets not forget that Tithian was tutored extensively by Sacha and Wyan in both psionics and sorcery.
I think ripvanwormer is suggesting we use the 3E god rules without actually making the SKs gods. Sounds good, but lots of the basic capabilities of the gods are too far-fetched, too god-like to correctly represent what the SKs can do. Also, and this may not be evident at first glance, but fans are not gonna like it if we use rules for gods but attach a warning sign to it saying "Does not actually mean SKs are god, just that thay have the exact same powers."
The Champion Template infers several Divine Rank 0 abilities, in case you weren't aware of that.
The Champion Template infers several Divine Rank 0 abilities, in case you weren't aware of that.
Thanks Jon, hadn't noticed that, but I think I made my point earlier.