I had a few questions about Orcs in Greyhawk
1) Are Orcs LE or CE?
2) Is Grummish their Deity 100%- do some worship Iuz instead?
3) Is there any Orcs who are not savage, wild brutal etc?
4) Are all Half Orcs dispised etc. Have any grown up to be Heroes (in published material?)
5) Has anyone out there changed the Orcs situation? Made a lawful or good nation, made them civilized etc?
Thanks!
I had a few questions about Orcs in Greyhawk
1) Are Orcs LE or CE?
2) Is Grummish their Deity 100%- do some worship Iuz instead?
3) Is there any Orcs who are not savage, wild brutal etc?
4) Are all Half Orcs dispised etc. Have any grown up to be Heroes (in published material?)
5) Has anyone out there changed the Orcs situation? Made a lawful or good nation, made them civilized etc?
1) Same as anywhere else, "often" CE
2) No - yes (WGR5 p.19-20 has more info on this topic, as well as on a sect of Grummsh worshippers that actively oppose the veneration of Iuz)
3) Sure, some are semi-civilized though they still retain the violent instincts of their ancestors. But, yes, there are even orc "cities" (i.e. Garek Enkdal). The one example that comes to mind is the Uruzary Corps, an elite force of orcish infantry serving the sultan of Zeif.
4) As a "race", usually yes. There are a few locations where they have been gradually "accepted" (the Wild Coast for instance) but they aren't exactly "welcomed with open arms" either.
Some are well-known (famous instead of infamous, I mean). An example? Quij, the henchman of the legendary Robilar (although this one was a full orc IIRC). Most are infamous though (i.e. Turrosh Mak of the Pomarj).
5) Not in my campaign (apart from what was already "canon", that is)
5) Has anyone out there changed the Orcs situation? Made a lawful or good nation, made them civilized etc?
Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil has a hamlet called Rastor just southwest of Hommlet in the Lortmil Mountains. Rastor is a small mud-soaked village that of primarily humans and dwarves, but observers will quickly notice orcs living among them as well. The orcs are more civilized than most and the humans are a bit more crude than most humans.
These orcs come from a nearby tribe located in a camp three miles southwest of Rastor and in the steep hills at the edge of a mountain they call the Foot of Gruumsh.
Oh and Iuz the Evil (and other Carl Sargent work) mentions different sub-races of orcs (often incorrectly given names given in the 83 boxed set to other goblinkin races such as jebli ho-jebline etc), among them the Urzun orcs of the lands of Iuz.
P.
3. There is also a village of quite peaceful orcs thriving in the ruins of Medegia.
4. My take on half-orcs is that they are viewed as second-class citizens in most areas, but can operate openly. There are generally half-orc enclaves in the larger cities. Areas like northern Furyondy or the Principality of Ulek which have recently had big-time orc problems will likely lynch a half-orc on sight.
3) Is there any Orcs who are not savage, wild brutal etc?
5) Has anyone out there changed the Orcs situation? Made a lawful or good nation, made them civilized etc?
3)Of the Sargent-era sub-races Woesinger mentioned, the Kazgund orcs are smarter, more civilized if not less brutal. They can hunt, sail and fish pretty good. This doesn't mean they are good though.
5)I'll mention the unmentionable...Dragon Annual #2 Map of Oerth shows a land called Orcreich far far west of Zeif. Draw your own conclusions ;)
I think 3e's alignment change was too extreme. However, I like that it stirred reflection on humanoid alignments. IMC most orcs are NE, and their gods generally inhabit Gehenna.
I agree with OleOneEye that orcs worship many gods. In addition to those already mentioned, in the Pomarj many orcs worship the Earth Dragon.
Mortepierre mentioned Garen Enkdal but didn't explain it. In case folks don't know, it is reportedly the largest orc city of the Flanaess. I forget which 2e module introduced it, but it was one that focused on the barbarians of Rhizia (the Thillonrian Peninsula).
Orcs of the Flanaess tend to be "savage," but they've organized beyond the tribal "level" or "stage" noted in the MM. In places like the Bone March, Empire of Iuz, Horned Society (when it existed), and Pomarj, the orcs (and other humanoids) developed supra-tribes that might be imagined as analogous to Earth's ethnic "nations."
Carl Sargent (mis)named many of these, as noted by Woesinger and Mortellan. Rather than understanding these groups as biologistic "sub-races," however, I suggest that Sargent was highlighting cultural differences between geographically rooted orc "nations" (or proto-nations).
Even these nations, however, are considered savage by the humans and demi-humans of the Flanaess, and only in the Bone March and Pomarj have the humanoids been able to develop their societies relatively free of human domination.
Half-orcs are not all despised in the Flanaess. However, the Greyhawk Wars included an event called the Night of Terror, when those humanoids that had been previously tolerated were murdered throughout the Domain of Greyhawk City. I don't know of any canonical half-orc hero of Weal (good).
Turrosh Mak, mentioned above, has probably done the most to organize orcs (and other humanoids) into a political group approximating a kingdom (although he called it "the Empire where none before has stood"). Reports conflict, but he seems to be a male half-orc from the Nedla tribe of the Pomarj. However, although his kingdom may be Lawful, it is not Goodly.
Mortepierre mentioned Garen Enkdal but didn't explain it. In case folks don't know, it is reportedly the largest orc city of the Flanaess. I forget which 2e module introduced it, but it was one that focused on the barbarians of Rhizia (the Thillonrian Peninsula).
That would be "The Five Shall Be One" and "The Howl From the North" that seemed to kick off the Greyhawk Wars. The city is located in the mountains of the Thillonrian peninsula somewhere around where the Griff and Corusk mountains meet.
Max_Writer, I think you're thinking of Montesser--mentioned by Woesinger and OleOneEye--which is located in the former Great Kingdom (near the old See of Medegia).
Nope - he's talking about Nume Eor (sp?). It's a frontier fief of Keoland down near Saltmarsh (below Dreadwood and east of the Javan). It was first mentioned in Holian's Keoland (I thinK) and was certainly developed further by LG Keoland as a place where h-orc PCs could hang out and not be kicked around the place by the authorities (AFAIK).
P.
Thanks for all the replies. I have a few more quiries if you can help please!
1) Euroz = Orcs? I was terribly confused by seeing the 2 terms, but are they are effectivly the same thing?
2) I looked up the village/settlement in Montesser several of you mentioned. most info was in the Ivid the Undying book (p105). However I was wondered if anyone knew when it was founded?
3) I thinking of expanding on Montesser (suprise the hell out of a bunch of players!) and was wondering if this idea Abbey could be linked to the Montesser settlement? Would that be viable? Sane?
4) Reading around I came across a doc which crossed Runequest and Greyhawk; this Book (Warning: PDF!!) has a Deity Called Torva who is a rebel against Gruumsh and taught magic to the Euroz after an apprentiship with Zagyf- is this offical? His followers are called Nalshaval- they and Torva also turned up in the Oerth Journal (No 17 Oct05) which I found here: PDF!
5) Woesinger- you mentioned Nume Eor (sp?) how likely this village is still there given the Orcish 'Empire' just round the corner?
Nope - he's talking about Nume Eor (sp?). It's a frontier fief of Keoland down near Saltmarsh (below Dreadwood and east of the Javan). It was first mentioned in Holian's Keoland (I thinK) and was certainly developed further by LG Keoland as a place where h-orc PCs could hang out and not be kicked around the place by the authorities (AFAIK).
P.
Nume Eor was wholly created and developed for LG Keoland by players of the region. (Whose names elude me at the moment as I'm still recovering from an impromptu attack by Incabulos.)
It was created as a place where half-orcs and half-elves could live and not be face constant prejudice just walking down the street. And so they could qualify for the Tribal Protector prestige class. (Which of course was dropped when 3.5 was released, and the Builder Books became obsolete.)
For the cold, heartless, sadistic Triad member who approved it, it began development of the local ruler - Viscount Richart Jorgos Lizhal, opened the province for greater use - a good number of Keoland regionals have been set in Nume Eor, and set up a long term plot - which led to a 3-year long set up of all the inhabitants of Haven to learn that they had to work with their chosen "tribal enemy" to save the Kingdom. All in all, a very good deal. :D
1) Euroz = Orcs? I was terribly confused by seeing the 2 terms, but are they are effectivly the same thing?
Yes - Euroz is the Flan name for orcs, just as Jebli are goblins, Ho-jebline (or hocbebi in Suel) are hobgoblins, Eiger are ogres etc. Cark Sargent got these terms mixed up and named subgroups of orcs after them (where as they are in fact different species of goblin and giant kin).
2) I looked up the village/settlement in Montesser several of you mentioned. most info was in the Ivid the Undying book (p105). However I was wondered if anyone knew when it was founded?
584 CY IIRC. Just after the Sack of Medegia.
3) I thinking of expanding on Montesser (suprise the hell out of a bunch of players!) and was wondering if this idea Abbey could be linked to the Montesser settlement? Would that be viable? Sane?
An Abbey to Lutic could work alright - though I ahven't looked carefully at that piece. There's a LG metaregional scenario called "The Lance of Osson" (from 2003 IIRC) where the PCs go to Montesser to deal with the Orcs to recover the lance of the legendary Almorian general.
4) Reading around I came across a doc which crossed Runequest and Greyhawk; this Book (Warning: PDF!!) has a Deity Called Torva who is a rebel against Gruumsh and taught magic to the Euroz after an apprentiship with Zagyf- is this offical? His followers are called Nalshaval- they and Torva also turned up in the Oerth Journal (No 17 Oct05) which I found here: PDF!
It's not GH canon AFAIK - but if it works for you, then use it!
5) Woesinger- you mentioned Nume Eor (sp?) how likely this village is still there given the Orcish 'Empire' just round the corner?
See Sam's response above. Yeah - it's still there - the Pomarj is a looong way east - with the dwarves of Ulek and the metropolis of Gradsul (and a good chunk of the Dreadwood) between it and Nume Eor.
P.
5) Woesinger- you mentioned Nume Eor (sp?) how likely this village is still there given the Orcish 'Empire' just round the corner?
To expand, as Woesinger said, Haven is quite far from the Pomarj.
It was also founded in 591 CY, so people already knew about the Orcish Empire. For the most part, they didn't care where the half-orcs lived, as long as it wasn't near them. Viscount Richart took them in because he needed someone to live on the edge of the swamp and protect everyone from the things living there. If a bunch of half-breeds were willing to volunteer for the greater glory of him and his family, he wasn't going to deny them the opportunity. (That they did so well was something he figured he'd deal with in the future. Given certain other developments, it became to his advantage politically to acknowledge their success.)
And yes, it is spelled Nume Eor, meaning New Eor, after the county in Tomb of the Lizard King.
Tolkien was vague about what orcs looked like, and D&D was too before the MMI came out. As a result, most of the orc miniatures in circulation in the early days of D&D (and later too, as Games Worshop and others never adopted the pig look) didn't look remotely piggish. See "Will the real orc please step forward?" in Dragon #25.
I see Orcs more like they are in Earthdawn, and Shadowrun; big, husky with tusks, wide jaws, heavy brows, pointed ears and proper noses! The D&D Orcs with upturned nose slashs? Yuk!
The Lord of the Rings movie Uruk-Kai is how I see Orcs behaving; disaplined, organized and capable of taking orders well. My Orcs are not Chaotic.
One reason I disliked FR Orcs is their hopeless subjegation to Grummsh, the God's desires and wants kept the race locked into a certain pattens of behavior; his domination stoped the Orcs thinking- perhaps in a very Sauron kinda way, but for me it sucks! Greyhawk Orcs on the other hand seem capable of thinking and working without that need of a mental Overlord. Strong leaders are one thing, being unable to think for yourself is something else.
This does not mean I want all my Orcs goody goody- I am happy to have evil or good or nuetral Orcs- I want them to have ability to be anything, any alignment or class- just like the other player races. Apart from Outsiders I dont belive in inherant good or evil races.