Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 sidestepper Jan 12, 2006 17:36:24	Below is a copy of an e-mail sent to Erik Mona, Editor-in-Chief of Dungeon and Dragon Magazines. I am writing because I remember reading somewhere that an upcoming issue of Dungeon or Dragon was to have an article on The Greyhawk Zodiac. I may be wrong. I do seriously see a need to put something on paper somewhere on what is in the sky. I know there is a bit in Spelljammer. I don't know how Spelljammer currently works in the 3.5 world. Has there already been something published on the subject that I missed? I assume that in the world of Greyhawk, on which you are the expert, the druids had the original say on what is in the sky. I would like to see a connection to this and the Druidic Circles. Also, I believe that the sky would have druidic flavor, such as animals versus anything supernatural or extraplanar. That brings me to the subject of the gods. I would assume there is several gods of night or the sky. Perhaps they, and their priest, have much to say about the sky and what is the purpose of the stars. We know the stars and planets are not what we think of in the real world. This has been touched apon in Spelljammer. How would the astronomy or astrology skills apply to the night sky, the moons and the planets? I have wanted these skills to matter more in the game. Thank you, Sidestepper
#2 ripvanwormer Jan 12, 2006 22:27:50	The ancient Oeridians were big on the sky - it's their god, Celestian, who is the god of astronomy and astrology. All of the constellations and planets should be associated with Oeridian gods; these would correspond to their realms in the Outer Planes, and be the genesis for the belief (now common in all cultures but the Olmans) that souls join the realms of their patron deities instead of entering the realm of a common god of the dead. Of course, the stone circle builders were into astronomy long before the Oeridians were, but their culture is mostly forgotten in the present day. The druids of the Old Faith might remember, but the Oeridian names would be the mainstream ones. Anyway, the planets are named in Spelljammer. I don't know if the constellations are. The moons are, as I'm sure you know, Celene and Luna. Next furthest from the Oerth is the sun, called Liga (or, to the Oeridians, Sol). Next are what the WoG boxed set called "the Five Wanderers." Edill, which is similar to Jupiter. The closest Oeridian god to Jupiter/Zeus is Velnius. The closest Suel god is Phaulkon. Gnibile, which is similar to Saturn. Nerull would probably be the best analogy. Among the Suel, Saturn corresponds to Lendor, but in Spelljammer Gnibile is haunted by negative energies and undead, so Beltar would probably be a better choice. Conatha is most like Neptune, and should probably correspond to Procan and Xerbo. Ginsel is something like Mars, so Hextor and Heironeous would be good patrons. Borka is a brutal, barbarous parallel of Ginsel, so Erythnul or Gruumsh might be appropriate. Then there are two more planets not visible from Oerth (though divination spells might identify their location to inquisitive astronomers). These are: Greela, which struck me as a combination between Uranus and Mercury symbolically. I associate it with Boccob. The Spectre, a mysterious void world similar in some ways to Pluto. I associate it with Vecna. The people of Oerth don't use the Spelljammer names for the moons or the sun, so they probably don't use them for the Wanderers either. Here are some other possibilities: Edill: The Dragon Gnibile: The Reaper Conantha: The Sailor Ginsel: The Prince Borka: The Knight Greela: The Magus The Spectre: The Spectre (works for me) I don't know anything about the Oeridian (or Flan, or Baklunish, or Rhennee, or Olman, or Suel) zodiac. I don't see why there wouldn't be supernatural animals in it, though; our own zodiac has a centaur and a mer-goat, and the people of Oerth (even the druids) probably wouldn't think those creatures were any more unusual than wolves or geese. But anyway, I thought they could be associated with Oeridian gods (beyond any associations the circle builders might have had). Here are the ones I haven't used yet for planets: Atroa Celestian Delleb Fharlanghn Kurrel Merikka Pholtus Rudd Sotillon Stratis Stern Alia Telchur Wenta Zilchus Celestian and Fharlanghn we have to eliminate, because Celestian wanders the sky as a whole and Fharlanghn forsook the sky to wander the oerth. We also have to eliminate Pholtus, since he's the god of the sun and the moons. That leaves the gods of the seasons, who might be very significant in the sky (the sun seeming to rise in each of those gods' constellations at the beginning of their associated quarter of the year), so they're shoe-ins for the solar zodiac. So that's four of the Lairs right there. That only leaves seven pure Oeridian gods (ignoring hero-deities, who wouldn't have their own realms): Delleb Kurrel Merikka Rudd Stratis Stern Alia Zilchus And there's a good case for Merikka being bound to the surface of the Oerth. Stratis is only known in Western Oerik. But we can also add common gods. Olidammara is an obvious one. Ralishaz and Trithereon are also major Greyhawk deities we haven't mentioned yet. Maybe St. Cuthbert, Ulaa, Tharizdun, Myrhiss, Lirr, Ehlonna, Joramy, Bahamut, and Tiamat, too. I'd avoid Cyndor, as he'd make an awfully good Pole Star. There are also the planar lords (Asmodeus, Demogorgon, Primus, Ssendam, Ygorl, Talisid, Morwel) if we're desperate. Ideally, we should get a combination of eight non-seasonal deities to correspond to the eight alignments of the Great Ring (ignoring neutrality, which is in the center of the Ring): LG, NG, CG, CN, CE, NE, LE, LN, So these are our 8 alignment lairs, maybe, accompanied by generic names for non-Oeridians: LG: Bahamut or Rao (the Shepherd or Platinum Dragon) NG: Myhriss (the Maiden) CG: Trithereon (the Beast-Tamer) CN: Ralishaz or Rudd (the Changer) CE: Demogorgon (the Abomination) NE: Incabulos (the Rider) LE: Tiamat or Asmodeus (the Chromatic Dragon or Serpent) LN: Primus, St. Cuthbert (the Priest) All that's left is to put them in order, then. Telchur's month would be Patchwall, heralding the coming of the cold months. The fierce gods Incabulos (Ready'reat) and Tiamat (Sunsebb) would work well in the lean months to follow. Atroa would arrive just as the days begin getting longer in Fireseek, followed by the industrious St. Cuthbert (Readying) and prudent Bahamut (Coldeven). Next Sotillion would sing of the coming delights of summer (in Planting), followed by sensuous Myhriss (Flocktime) and wild Trithereon (Wealsun). Finally, Wenta arrives in the month of Reaping to begin the harvest, followed by the uncertain fortunes of Ralishaz (Goodmonth) and the destructive nature of Demogorgon (in Harvester) leading into Telchur and the cold. There you go: 12 lairs of the zodiac, as seen by the average soul in the modern Flanaess. If you can parallel each of these with animals for the druids, you're all set. Maybe Telchur could be a bear, Incabulos could be a horse, Tiamat could be a snake, Atroa could be a swan, St. Cuthbert could be a bull (for his bull-headedness), Bahamut could be a ram (for its horns, and because you must always put the ram next to the bull), Sotillion could be a lioness, Myhriss could be a cat, Trithereon could be a hound, Wenta a beetle, Ralishaz a fox, and Demogorgon a mandrill.
#3 ripvanwormer Jan 12, 2006 23:07:41	All that's left is to put them in order, then. Telchur's month would be Patchwall, heralding the coming of the cold months. The fierce gods Incabulos (Ready'reat) and Tiamat (Sunsebb) would work well in the lean months to follow. Atroa would arrive just as the days begin getting longer in Fireseek, followed by the industrious St. Cuthbert (Readying) and prudent Bahamut (Coldeven). Next Sotillion would sing of the coming delights of summer (in Planting), followed by sensuous Myhriss (Flocktime) and wild Trithereon (Wealsun). Finally, Wenta arrives in the month of Reaping to begin the harvest, followed by the uncertain fortunes of Ralishaz (Goodmonth) and the destructive nature of Demogorgon (in Harvester) leading into Telchur and the cold. On second (actually third) thought, I'd rather bump the cycle of alignments up by one, so that Bahamut/Rao is in Flocktime. Sotillion (Planting) LG: Bahamut or Rao (Flocktime) NG: Myhriss (Wealsun) Wenta (Reaping) CG: Trithereon (Goodmonth) CN: Ralishaz or Rudd (Harvester) Telchur (Patchwall) CE: Demogorgon (Ready'reat) NE: Incabulos (Sunsebb) Atroa (Fireseek) LE: Tiamat or Asmodeus (Readying) LN: Primus, St. Cuthbert (Coldeven) The stern tyrants ensure all is ready, while He of the Cudgel maintains discipline until the days of warmth. Bahamut or Rao watch the flocks, then Myhriss relaxes under the aegis of Sotillion's full bloom. The chaotic good Trithereon defends liberty during bright midpoint of chaotic good Wenta's reign, while Ralishaz presides as things start to fall apart (or Rudd presides over the well-earned wealth of the harvest). Finally, the destructive Demogorgon and Incabulos frolic under Telchur's icy gaze. I think that works better.
#4 Mortepierre Jan 13, 2006 2:41:11	I could be wrong, but wasn't this the standard GH's Zodiac? (as published in http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/gh/gh-pg.htm ) Fireseek -- Tiger Readying -- Bear Coldeven -- Lion Planting -- Frog Flocktime -- Turtle Wealsun -- Fox Reaping -- Snake Goodmonth -- Boar Harvester -- Squirrel Patchwall -- Hare Ready’reat -- Falcon Sunsebb -- Wolf
#5 zombiegleemax Jan 13, 2006 6:10:17	Those are the names that the Flan and or the northern barbarians use for the months...but the might be tied to the houses of the Zodiac too...
#6 ripvanwormer Jan 13, 2006 9:21:38	Hm, yes, it might well be. I think I would go with that as far as animals go, but I still like my deity associations.
#7 max_writer Jan 13, 2006 10:06:04	I sent an article on this very thing to Oerth Journal after it got rejected by Dragon some time ago. Oerth Journal seemed interested in the article, which included a diagram of the night's sky. My last letters to them were in August 2005.
#8 robbastard Jan 13, 2006 17:57:40	The only canon GH source that mentions constellations by name that I know of is in Idid the Undying, in the chapter on North Province: "Zwingell, who makes all manner of predictions pertaining to "The Dancer of Swords in the Heavens," "The Singing Sisters of Revenge in the constellation of the Druid," and the like." The only specific constellation is the Druid, which may or may not be part of the zodiac. Though I like the idea of using the nomads' month names for the zodiac, it's easy to assume that the Druid is part of the zodiac (perhaps an alternate name for the Lion, or Wolf, etc), as the above passage refers to prophecy, which historically is intertwined with the zodiac. The Dancer of Swords could be a planet, constellation, star, comet, or other heavenly body. The Singing Sisters, though perhaps two or more planets, seem most likely to be stars--perhaps an asterism within the Druid (as the Big Dipper is to Ursa Major). They could also be another name for the Sisters, which are described in the Spelljammer supplement Greyspace: "The Sisters is the name given to a group of nine bright starlike objects that orbits Oerth at a distance of 7,500 million miles, just 500 million miles from the crystal sphere. When viewed from the direction of Oerth, the nine objects form a perfect octagon, with the ninth star in the exact center. The entire octagonal structure is 500 miles across, while the objects comprising it are spheres one mile in diameter." I like the idea of associating Oerth's planets with her gods. Especially if you associate the mythical Anti-Liga with Nerull. IIRC, the WoG boxed set states that there are 5 "wandering stars," which would account for all but the 2 most distant planets. One could say that Greela & the Spectre weren't discovered until after 576, perhaps because the first five are visible with the naked eye--but then we have a problem. I compared the distances from Oerth & its planets to those in the real world, and IIRC, only Edill, Gnibile, & Conatha sould be visible to the naked eye. Ginsel, perhaps, but I believe it's even farther from Earth than Uranus at its closest (Uranus is just barely visible to the naked eye under the right conditions, but you have to really look for it). If the explanation is that the telescope was invented prior to 576 (which I believe quite possible), then why weren't Greela & the Spectre found until after? If the telescope was invented post-576, how did the Savant-Sage know about Ginsel & Borka? does magic make them brighter? Or was the S-S just sleepy & wrote down "5" when he meant "3" (or "7," if he had access to a telescope)?
#9 ripvanwormer Jan 13, 2006 21:20:17	Especially if you associate the mythical Anti-Liga with Nerull. I think Tharizdun seems more appropriate. Pelor is known to have opposed him in the past, and Anti-Liga is no longer in the sky - perhaps since the time of Tharizdun's own banishment? Nerull, on the other hand, is as active as ever. Probably more active now, since he's come out of Tharizdun's shadow. how did the Savant-Sage know about Ginsel & Borka? Divination magic? Or maybe we should ignore the Greyspace distances so that five of the Wanderers can be seen.
#10 sidestepper Jan 14, 2006 0:02:06	Thank all of you for replies and serious answers to my questions. I am amazed that Ripvanwormer did a thesis instantly! I thank everyone for this serious love of Greyhawk. I do remember the mention of the animals of the barbarians and other things listed in the World of Greyhawk boxed set. I feel that there are varied answers for the sky. I was surprised to get them all. The mention of some constellations in Ivid the Undying was surprising. I believe this was "unpublished" and unfinished. I could wonder where the writer of this work got his information. This was most likely never edited. And, the mention of the crystal sphere and the things between it and Oerth is something to ponder as well. Please tell me, if you are running a Greyhawk Campaign, does the Spelljammer ships and cosmology fit into your version of Greyhawk? In my campaign, I am not allowing time travel, gunpowder, and psionics. I have not given my players a reason for this. They would have to research it if they care. I feel the average citizen cares about such things as much as they would think about gravity or airpressure. I don't feel the need to eliminate Spelljamming vessels. But, I don't know if this should be a thing that was popular in the past and is now in decline. I suppose I could read my copies of Spelljammer in detail. But there is enough of old First Edition Greyhawk to convert to 3.5 as it is. I wish I had the pure drive of Ripvanwormer to do all this on reflex. Thanks again!
#11 Mortepierre Jan 14, 2006 4:24:30	Please tell me, if you are running a Greyhawk Campaign, does the Spelljammer ships and cosmology fit into your version of Greyhawk? It does. I was always rather fond of the SJ system, if only because it provided a simple explanation about how some "stuff" from one setting ended up on another (much better than the old "well, he plane shifted!"). So, I am still using it (and the Greyspace accessory in particular). That said, 99.9% of Oerth's population knows nothing about SJ, so it's not likely to turn their world upside-down. Moreover, the Grinder does make it difficult to reach Oerth. Add neogi, illithids, scro, etc.. and you've got a lot of reasons why spelljamming vessels don't land in the middle of Chendl every day. One particular tidbit of SJ lore I've always liked is the myth of Anti-Liga. I worked it into my GH cosmology/history by deciding that eons ago Oerth had indeed two suns, each associated with a god (Pelor and his brother). Since they circled the planet continuously, there was no night to speak of. Thus, creatures who hated the sun(s) had to dwell 24/7 beneath the surface. Illithids tried to remedy the situation by opening a gate to the Negative Energy Plane within the suns. Their first attempt failed (Liga) but the second succeeded only too well (Anti-Liga). It had two dramatic consequences: 1) Oerth now knew a night (which, ironically enough, made it possible for cults such as Celestian to develop) 2) Pelor's brother, which had a symbiosis with Anti-Liga was "inverted" (so to speak). From a life and light-giving deity, it became obsessed with darkness and death. Thus was born.. Nerull!