Rob.
When we get around to doing them for athas.org, the current thinking is to use the graft and symbiont rules. It seems to me that these were at least partly inspired by the 2e lifeshaped rules, so it makes sense to incorporate them for 3e.
That makes sense and I really don't want to have to learn the incarnum rules. It just seems like a big headache to me, though not as bad as the weapons of legacy. They ripped that idea off of the midnight setting and made it infinately more complicated and retarded in the process. BTW great setting for DS and RL fans.
Some suggested this sometine ago, but the d20 Future rules for cybernetics would be a great system for lifeshaped grafts and what not.
I haven't looked at d20 Future at all yet.
Guess I have an excuse now.
Some suggested this sometime ago, but the d20 Future rules for cybernetics would be a great system for lifeshaped grafts and what not.
I think that was me.
I've picked up cyberscape since then and it has some interesting variants that make the idea even more viable. It has a section on bio-tech that is pretty good.
In my games I've started combining the bio-tech variant with the XP cost for acquiring it (in addition to locating and earning/puchasing it). Only used it for a few sessions so far, but it seems to be working pretty well (only two out five characters have grafts).
I incorporated flavor change for apearance. After all you can almost always see lifeshaped items on a character, but the cybernetics rules don't really cover that.
Yuuzhon Vong biotechnology from the New Jedi Order Sourcebook, for the Star Wars: RPG. for grafts and stuff.... yea, the other suggestions were potentially good ideas.
Thought of DS when I read the 1st vong book back in 2000. Ripoff cough cough.
Thought of DS when I read the 1st vong book back in 2000. Ripoff cough cough.
Not ripoff. Many of the Dark Sun authors/developers migrated to the Star Wars universe, and I swear that the Yuuzhon Vong are the "literary descendants" of the Rhulisti. Troy Denning himself is a major author of the New Jedi Order series. The back story and history of the Yuuzhon Vong even suggests that they could have come from Athas. The similarities are great enough that I simply use the Yuuzhon Vong as my basis for the Rhulisti.
did that tower reach above the water in the blue age??? if so.. it's gotta be incredibly tall!
What makes you think it wasn't erected on dry land?
An unofficial height for the tower is 3000 ft.
That makes sense and I really don't want to have to learn the incarnum rules. It just seems like a big headache to me, though not as bad as the weapons of legacy.
I was mostly thinking of the Soulfoused Construct template and living construct subtype found on pg. 196 of the "Magic of Incarnum" book. Use them with the graft and symbiont rules found in "Fiend Folio", or the cybernetic rules from "d20 Future" as the others have said. As for a Nature Master class if writen right you don't need to know the incarnum rules all that much. Just focus on the ability to create life shaped objects.
I was mostly thinking of the Soulfoused Construct template and living construct subtype found on pg. 196 of the "Magic of Incarnum" book. Use them with the graft and symbiont rules found in "Fiend Folio". As for a Nature Master class if writen right you don't need to know the incarnum rules all that much. Just focus on the ability to create life shaped objects.
Oh. OK. Well, I'm not going to knock it before I see it. That doesn't sound bad.
Maybe you should do a preliminary write-up so that people can get a better idea of what you're talking about.
It could be sort of like the artificer class, but for darksun.
My only request for the Athas.org types in the regards of Lifeshaping abilities, is that the lifeshapes themselves, create a variety of abilities.. there needs to be a 'need' for them.. beyond just that they are organic.. or else I personally would stick to a psion or another class that could already accomplish the same effect... Also, there need to be lifeshape-creatures, and if possible, a class that can be formed in some fashion to create new items.. ( I don't particularly care what system of mechanics as long as its simple, and could conceivably create something like the Pristine Tower. I wouldn't mind if that was done with some variation on the epic spellcasting theme using more than one life shaper of epic levels..) did that tower reach above the water in the blue age??? if so.. it's gotta be incredibly tall!
That makes sense. I'll try and put together a new class, with fluff, item-creation feats, and some example items for everyone to look at to show the system I was thinking of. Try to post it over the next day or two.
My only request for the Athas.org types in the regards of Lifeshaping abilities, is that the lifeshapes themselves, create a variety of abilities.. there needs to be a 'need' for them.. beyond just that they are organic.. or else I personally would stick to a psion or another class that could already accomplish the same effect...
Well I think its a good idea to try to make lifeshaped items very distinct from magic and psionics, but I personally don't see a problem with overlap. Lifeshaping predated psionics and magic so things that can be acomplished with those now had to be acomplished in other ways back then, namely lifeshaping. The psionic artifacts of athas book had a great many lifeshapec items that essentially duplicated the effects of spells or powers, but as living creatures had their own considerations.
For me its a lot cooler to have a breathermask than a waterbreathing spell, because of what it is not just what it does.
That being said, I think that care should be made to come up with interesting rules and explainations for how lifeshaped items work, feed, are grown, etc.
Well I think its a good idea to try to make lifeshaped items very distinct from magic and psionics, but I personally don't see a problem with overlap. Lifeshaping predated psionics and magic so things that can be acomplished with those now had to be acomplished in other ways back then, namely lifeshaping. The psionic artifacts of athas book had a great many lifeshapec items that essentially duplicated the effects of spells or powers, but as living creatures had their own considerations.
For me its a lot cooler to have a breathermask than a waterbreathing spell, because of what it is not just what it does.
That being said, I think that care should be made to come up with interesting rules and explainations for how lifeshaped items work, feed, are grown, etc.
Oh I'm not against overlap, I just don't want to have 'only' overlap.. if new lifeshapped items were created, and all the item descriptions said, was something like, as vorpal sword, or as water breathing spell cast by lvl 7 sorceror.. I'd be very dissapointed.. I don't mind, as you said, a water breathing mask, (Personally I'd prefer one, its got style points over a spell, and it'll last longer and cannot be dispelled/nullified) plus it adds some realism to require the players to focus on 'equipment maintenance' ;) so to speak.. I just want to make sure some of the more interesting things from psionic artifacts of Athas make it in.. some of the more uniqe life shaped items.. like that tongue whip, if people like that.. or those shields, the spine and climber style were cool.. and those tails were awesome.. I don't know a spell or power that grants a tail directly.. (unless some variant of polymorph is used ;) )
I hope I'm making sense, I just want to make sure that life shaped items have their own flavor and style to them, much like the artificer does.. he stands out in a world of spellcasters, he's still got a place.. as does what he makes.. lifeshaping should stand out also... and not be drowned by 'modern day' psionics and magic... it 'is' supposed to be ancient and powerful, yes?
Also, in Dragon Magazine #308, there is an article called "Armed to the Tentacle: The Illithid Arsenal". It has a number of ineresting symbionts which feed off of the user's charisma score ate a rate of 1 per day to function. When not active, they undergo an inert hybernative state. I think there is even some type of creature that grants minor psionic talent by replaceing part of your brain! Its an interesting read, especially if you like mind flayers, or are looking to beef them up for your players.
I hope I'm making sense, I just want to make sure that life shaped items have their own flavor and style to them, much like the artificer does.. he stands out in a world of spellcasters, he's still got a place.. as does what he makes.. lifeshaping should stand out also... and not be drowned by 'modern day' psionics and magic... it 'is' supposed to be ancient and powerful, yes?
Totally :D , I'd say we are on the exact same page.
Maybe we should get a sticky on one this lifeshaping thread so we don't have to discuss a lot of these same ideas again and again
Maybe we should get a sticky on one this lifeshaping thread so we don't have to discuss a lot of these same ideas again and again
True Sage, same page indeed
And yes hunter, we should get a sticky on this topic until Athas.org makes official unofficial stuff for us to salivate over. (And I will be very irritated if they leave out a variation of 'any' item in the old books).
Here's a question. if they allow/create a life shaping class... will they allow the creation of buildings and other structures? Keep in mind this could have more of a result than just a new home/base to party in... The pristine tower is more than just a tower.. and Athas is more than just a playground, everyone there who survives long enough does so because they gain a godlike amount of personal power!
If I see a nature master/bender class (and yes there should be both, don't you think?) the class should have epic potential... right down to modifying the sun... though the epic seed for such a thing could be up there in the 400's like that one gaze of god spell or whatever it was... point being.. if we bring back the nature master's.. and lifeshaping into a class.. we've got to include everything..
though it might be wise to include a restriction against multi-classing such a character with any psionicist or wizard classes... (lest we have another rajaat on the horizon :P much fun as that would be for the 'player' ;) )thoughts?
Well I think its a good idea to try to make lifeshaped items very distinct from magic and psionics, but I personally don't see a problem with overlap.
Well, if I get my way, it's definately not going to be anything like psionics or magic.
Though I have considered making them immune to psionics, while magic still affects them, especially defiling, like it does in WRotJC.
I want to also add in a sidebar for a rhulisti writeup, and maybe have a nature master and nature bender PrC or class, haven't decided where those should go yet. I would like to make the rhulisit immune to psionics as well, but we'll see where that goes.
We need to finish ToA and TotDL and get them both out of our hairs for awhile before Kam and I can continue with the lifeshaped stuff.
Has anyone else played the Prince of Persia: The Two Thrones? Well the reason I ask is I think that the chain-like whip thing on his arm would make a sweet life-shaped item. It could be like a living thing that lives in the hosts arm and stuff- anyway, just a random thought.
I watched a bit too much Final Conflict back in the day when it was good (my god there is actually 4 seasons of this bloody show!?), and had an idea for the skreel(sp?) and made it a lifeshapped artifact that got mutated over the ages and was actually able to send out blasts of pure psionic energy by feeding off the host. It was based on Power Points or Con if you weren't psionic-natured in anyway back in the day of 2e.
I would like to recreate it one of these days and make it a bit more workable, it was pretty unbalanced when I initially brought it out and gave it to a player.
Oh I'm not against overlap, I just don't want to have 'only' overlap.. if new lifeshapped items were created, and all the item descriptions said, was something like, as vorpal sword, or as water breathing spell cast by lvl 7 sorceror.. I'd be very dissapointed.. I don't mind, as you said, a water breathing mask, (Personally I'd prefer one, its got style points over a spell, and it'll last longer and cannot be dispelled/nullified) plus it adds some realism to require the players to focus on 'equipment maintenance' ;) so to speak.. I just want to make sure some of the more interesting things from psionic artifacts of Athas make it in.. some of the more uniqe life shaped items.. like that tongue whip, if people like that.. or those shields, the spine and climber style were cool.. and those tails were awesome.. I don't know a spell or power that grants a tail directly.. (unless some variant of polymorph is used ;) )
I hope I'm making sense, I just want to make sure that life shaped items have their own flavor and style to them, much like the artificer does.. he stands out in a world of spellcasters, he's still got a place.. as does what he makes.. lifeshaping should stand out also... and not be drowned by 'modern day' psionics and magic... it 'is' supposed to be ancient and powerful, yes?
If I get my way and don't run into too many obstacles, you won't be dissappointed in what comes out of this project.
I've always loved the lifeshaped items and artifacts, and I don't plan on re-doing it as a project unless we can do it right.
Here's a question. if they allow/create a life shaping class... will they allow the creation of buildings and other structures? Keep in mind this could have more of a result than just a new home/base to party in... The pristine tower is more than just a tower.. and Athas is more than just a playground, everyone there who survives long enough does so because they gain a godlike amount of personal power!
I'm not sure I want to go that epic with it. I mean most of the ability to do what you are seeking is a Blue Age thing, not a Brown Age thing. So it's going to be limited but still powerful in its own regard when you continue to level.
As far as adding Blue Age mechanics for those that want to bring the Rhulisti back or actually play in the Blue Age? I have thought about incorporating it in the product as well, in sidebars anyways, but it depends on how much leniency I am given.
I want to also add in a sidebar for a rhulisti writeup, aand maybe have a nature master and nature bender PrC or class, haven't decided where those should go yet. I would like to make the rhulisit immune to psionics as well, but we'll see where that goes.
I would have to disagree with you on this point slightly Nyt.
IMO- original life-shaped items, ie those that were actually created during the Blue Age and still exist should be immune to psionics- that just makes sense.
BUT- items that are more recently created would not have this immunity. Why you ask? Well for starters the true lore of the original lifeshapers is lost and what remains is but a shadow of a shadow of its former might and power- meaning that. Also, the marerial and creatures used to make the original life-shaped items were never exposed to psionics, while the ones made today would or could b shaped from critters or things that have been exposed to said energies.
For example- say that a life-shaper today wanted to make an item that would allow him to stick to walls and climb cliffs- well his stock material would most likely come from a creature that has said ability (a lizard or something)- and this creature would have the either active psionic ability or the latent potential for psionics- which almost every living thing on Athas does- and some of the dead ones too. Therefore it would not automatically be immune to psionics.
IMO- original life-shaped items, ie those that were actually created during the Blue Age and still exist should be immune to psionics- that just makes sense.
BUT- items that are more recently created would not have this immunity.
Yeah, I should have clarified that more. That is what I meant in my haste.
Why you ask? Well for starters the true lore of the original lifeshapers is lost and what remains is but a shadow of a shadow of its former might and power- meaning that.
Well, I want to kind of break this a little as one gets into the higher levels, maybe make it an Epic only thing. And you are right, once we do that, then anything newly created would not be immune to psionics.
For the time being though you're mostly going to see conversions of the old stuff and how to repair the old stuff and take care of it like they specify in WRotJC. I would like to add to that though and make them have the ability to create new lifeshaped items once they attain higher levels, though nothing on the scale of building and such, more something along the lines of just shy what is presented in the general items section of WRotJC.
I need to go over that book again though because some things are a little vague still. I did at one point when I was going to get an outline going, but then we had to deal with ToA and TotDL again.
I'm going to try to ponder an outlline sometime soon though and probably post it to my site before I submit it officially to the bureau and then take it from there.
I definately want some fan input on this.
Scientists have located, totally by accident, living stromatolites in a clearwater lake (can't recall name or location). What's great about it, as far as I could gather without reading geology papers, was that the stromatolites no longer occur on Earth and are relegated to geological era sediments. So the enormous colonies of stone-building bacteria in that lake are, for now, totally unique, not mentionning they can do their incredible and still uncracked process of trapping/binding/cementation of sedimentary grains in clear water while their geological ancestors did it in salt water only.
Even though halfling living rock was said to be living, so are corals and 95% of their mass is mineral. So maybe halfling living rock material is really lifeshaped stromatolite colonies, growing buildings bacterial level by bacterial level at an amazing (lifeshaped) rate.
All you need is immersion in water, dissolved and floating minerals in it, sunlight, and you're good to go.
After tax season I will have a bit more time and this is something I think I would be able to help you out with- so when you get around to it let me know where you would want someone to help you out or whatever.
I personally would keep lifeshaping as something truly lost to the years. If anything, I'd have the Zik-Chil having access to the "nature-bender" sort of manipulating existing creatures. I mean, the Ruhl-Than forgot how to lifeshape -- and they'd have the highest chance of knowing the process.
Excluding the three rhulisti reputed to be on the Messenger.
Speaking of halfling living rock material, I saw a BBC reportage that could enlighten the affair somewhat.
Scientists have located, totally by accident, living stromatolites in a clearwater lake (can't recall name or location). What's great about it, as far as I could gather without reading geology papers, was that the stromatolites no longer occur on Earth and are relegated to geological era sediments. So the enormous colonies of stone-building bacteria in that lake are, for now, totally unique, not mentionning they can do their incredible and still uncracked process of trapping/binding/cementation of sedimentary grains in clear water while their geological ancestors did it in salt water only.
Even though halfling living rock was said to be living, so are corals and 95% of their mass is mineral. So maybe halfling living rock material is really lifeshaped stromatolite colonies, growing buildings bacterial level by bacterial level at an amazing (lifeshaped) rate.
All you need is immersion in water, dissolved and floating minerals in it, sunlight, and you're good to go.
Cool- this is kind of like the material that I have made for my book I am writing- brief notes for it are in my multiply site- but it does not live in the water, but instead floats in the sky. The process of it growing has to do with these things called life krystals, add dust, sun, and water, and boom: you have my sky-coral (for lack of a better name at this point). This material floats in the air because while it is growing it gives off a gas (helium or something like it) that collects in the stone, which is very porous. Like I said- this is all in my notes at home and on my website- talk about art reflecting life- kinda.
Excluding the three rhulisti reputed to be on the Messenger.
That will probably be another sidebar as well. Along with dealing on changes to the metaplot if one wishes just to make the non-metaplot lovers happy, and fits well with what WotC doesn't want us to do.
Speaking of halfling living rock material, I saw a BBC reportage that could enlighten the affair somewhat.
Scientists have located, totally by accident, living stromatolites in a clearwater lake (can't recall name or location).
Cool!
I will definately have to read up on this later.
Wouldn't the githizeri "mind bomb" have effected the lost/hidden life-shaped creations just like it did to the rest of the living matter on Athas?
In regards to psionics and blue aged crafted life-shapes.
Wouldn't the githizeri "mind bomb" have effected the lost/hidden life-shaped creations just like it did to the rest of the living matter on Athas?
Yeah, that's why I need to re-read WRotJC and see what the specifics are when the lifeshaped items aren't being used. Can't remember if they go dormant or not and whether or not something like that would effect them.
If it does, then it would be just another sidebar saying that they were once immune to psionics in the Blue Age, but not anymore sort of thing.
Here are some links:
http://www.astrobio.net/news/article113.html
http://supercritical.civil.ubc.ca/~pavilion/ (check out "Information")
http://www.radio-canada.ca/Medianet/CBFT/Decouverte200601151830_2.asx (for those able to understand french, its a video from our BBC equivalent here in Quebec)
Yeah, that's why I need to re-read WRotJC and see what the specifics are when the lifeshaped items aren't being used. Can't remember if they go dormant or not and whether or not something like that would effect them.
If it does, then it would be just another sidebar saying that they were once immune to psionics in the Blue Age, but not anymore sort of thing.
Man, that tidbit detail is not even part of the timeline, its relegated to the adventure itself. Yet somehow people keep bringing it up, like the Mists...keep creeping back into Athas where it doesn't belong. ;)
Did i mention i hate that freakin' psibomb? :P
Man, that tidbit detail is not even part of the timeline, its relegated to the adventure itself. Yet somehow people keep bringing it up, like the Mists...keep creeping back into Athas where it doesn't belong. ;)
Did i mention i hate that freakin' psibomb? :P
The time line does mention the Githyanki & Queen Trinth and the Black Spine connection though.
In regards to psionics and blue aged crafted life-shapes.
Wouldn't the githizeri "mind bomb" have effected the lost/hidden life-shaped creations just like it did to the rest of the living matter on Athas?
If you subscribe to the psibomb theory then you would have to think this- the life-shaped item were immune or sealed off from the effects somehow having been fully formed and functional at that point. The reason that the races of the Rebirth and such were effected was due most likely to the fact that they were still in a state of flux casued by the Rebirth or the residual effects of the Brown Tide- making them vulnerable to the effects of the psibomb- where as the life-shaped items were fully formed.
There are also several lifeshaped items in Psionic Artifacts of Athas, as well as some pretty cool advice and several options on introducing them into the game.
Yeah, I need to read up on it as well again.
I want to make sure I read WRotJC first though because I remember (as always) some inconsistencies between the two in regards to lifeshaping.
Man, that tidbit detail is not even part of the timeline, its relegated to the adventure itself. Yet somehow people keep bringing it up, like the Mists...keep creeping back into Athas where it doesn't belong. ;)
Did i mention i hate that freakin' psibomb? :P
Eh, as far as I'm concerned it's canon.
If you subscribe to the psibomb theory then you would have to think this- the life-shaped item were immune or sealed off from the effects somehow having been fully formed and functional at that point. The reason that the races of the Rebirth and such were effected was due most likely to the fact that they were still in a state of flux casued by the Rebirth or the residual effects of the Brown Tide- making them vulnerable to the effects of the psibomb- where as the life-shaped items were fully formed.
How would you explain the kreen race who were not part of the Rebirth without speculating as you did above. ;)
Eh, as far as I'm concerned it's canon.
Ditto :D
The explanation that psionics appeared with the Rebirth - thus must be linked to it - sounds a lot better and is Athasian related at least.
Personal rantings is what it is.
How would you explain the kreen race who were not part of the Rebirth without speculating as you did above. ;)
They may very well have been altered slightly by those ancient halflings and/or effected by the changing caused by the Rebirth.
It may just come down to intelligence. If you think about it- live-shaped items are not actually intelligent self-sufficient things- and kind of going against my own argument a bit- the life-shaped items were not effected due to their lack of intellignece and the fact that they were already made. Now items made today would come from creatures decended from those effected by the psibomb.
Just theorizing here.
It may just come down to intelligence. If you think about it- live-shaped items are not actually intelligent self-sufficient things- and kind of going against my own argument a bit- the life-shaped items were not effected due to their lack of intellignece and the fact that they were already made.
Actually, if I remember correctly, life-shaped items did have an Int score back in 2e, however low it may be (I think at most they went as high as 3?).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty positive that is the case.
Eh, as far as I'm concerned it's canon.
Agreed. I personally like the idea of the Psibomb -- of all of the races/people who could have broken through the Gray, I'd expect the Githyanki to have been able to. The Psibomb helps provide a link to the psionics, their proliferation throughout Athas, while keeping it separate from the Blue Age itself (which I feel is better than having Psionics be widespread or even around in the Blue Age), and also a link between the Athasian Gith and the Githyanki/Githzerai. In my games, I actually make all the races be "naturally psionic" in that they have between 1 & 3 power points by virtue of their race. All expect the Gith, which I have them specifically listed as not being "naturally psionic" -- reflecting what had happened because of the psibomb, and also giving a small detail about every race being "psionic" (like many parts of the flavor of Athas tended to have)
Agreed. I personally like the idea of the Psibomb -- of all of the races/people who could have broken through the Gray, I'd expect the Githyanki to have been able to. The Psibomb helps provide a link to the psionics, their proliferation throughout Athas, while keeping it separate from the Blue Age itself (which I feel is better than having Psionics be widespread or even around in the Blue Age), and also a link between the Athasian Gith and the Githyanki/Githzerai. In my games, I actually make all the races be "naturally psionic" in that they have between 1 & 3 power points by virtue of their race. All expect the Gith, which I have them specifically listed as not being "naturally psionic" -- reflecting what had happened because of the psibomb, and also giving a small detail about every race being "psionic" (like many parts of the flavor of Athas tended to have)
While this has merits, I'm with Pennarin :D
Going by the official timeline we see psionics coming into being with the Pristine Tower a long time ago. The Black Spine book suggests a millennium and even that's not consistent with the Timeline.
8th World's Age (-14,014)
-Guthay's Agitation
First use of psionic powers by the races of The Rebirth.
IMO the creation of the Pristine Tower and focus of world/sun altering energies is more in keeping with the history of Athas than being caught up in another races war.
This goes back to a long argument about the Gray, the Astral and probably gods...
Actually, if I remember correctly, life-shaped items did have an Int score back in 2e, however low it may be (I think at most they went as high as 3?).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty positive that is the case.
Those with inteligence score was producents. Those lifeshaped animals that were creating items. Like this lizard, from whom scales were made arrowheads.
BTW: From whitch accessory commes psi-bomb?
BTW: From whitch accessory commes psi-bomb?
Hi,
The 'Black Spine' adventure! Some good ideas (for Planescape ;) ) and great cover artwork.
Those with inteligence score was producents. Those lifeshaped animals that were creating items. Like this lizard, from whom scales were made arrowheads.
Ok, so those that were acutal weapons and items, like the tongue whip, etc. did not? Makes sense actually.
BTW: From whitch accessory commes psi-bomb?
Combination of Black Spine
and
Dragon's Crown
Its one of many "little" accidents that have shaped Athas through out its history. :D
I don't view it that the mind bomb alone bestowed Athas its psionic potential. I feel it was the detonation of the bomb coupled with energies emanating from the Pristine Tower that inadvertently altered the genetic make up in all living matter. The end result being the side effect of psionics.
Its one of many "little" accidents that have shaped Athas through out its history. :D
Ahmen brother, ahmen.
I don't view it that the mind bomb alone bestowed Athas its psionic potential. I feel it was the detonation of the bomb coupled with energies emanating from the Pristine Tower that inadvertently altered the genetic make up in all living matter. The end result being the side effect of psionics.
Its one of many "little" accidents that have shaped Athas through out its history. :D
Fair point. It's just that by the end of the Green Age, Athas was a high psionic setting, which suggests a wider use and spread of psionics at a genetic level than your average world.
Can't help but think that the use of a psi-bomb at a world effecting level would have annoyed the SK's a little :D
Fair point. It's just that by the end of the Green Age, Athas was a high psionic setting, which suggests a wider use and spread of psionics at a genetic level than your average world.
Can't help but think that the use of a psi-bomb at a world effecting level would have annoyed the SK's a little :D
I like the psi-bomb, but I have to agree, the timing in it sucks. I actually usually try to place it as after the start of the Green Age (the Rebirth), but before civilization got reformed (a sort of "interregnum" (sp?) period where people had to gather together, regroup, develop cultures, etc.) I do like the idea that it was a combination of the Psi-Bomb & the Pristine Tower (at that period, probably at the Tower's peak of it's power) that resulted in the Psionic "infusion".
Fair point. It's just that by the end of the Green Age, Athas was a high psionic setting, which suggests a wider use and spread of psionics at a genetic level than your average world.
Can't help but think that the use of a psi-bomb at a world effecting level would have annoyed the SK's a little :D
I would think the mindbomb was well before the time of the SKs. If I were to place it, I'd say it was detonated shortly after the Rebirth races emerged from the Pristine Tower.
Inconsistent canon may prove otherwise, but it would only make sense if it were around this period.
I would think the mindbomb was well before the time of the SKs. If I were to place it, I'd say it was detonated shortly after the Rebirth races emerged from the Pristine Tower.
Inconsistent canon may prove otherwise, but it would only make sense if it were around this period.
Agreed. I was going to either place it in the end of the Blue Age right before the Rebirth started, right at the exact time the Rebirth started or a short time afterward.
I haven't decided yet.
The bomb, IMO, was used to kill off psionic powers of the others by unleashing a huge psionic explosion- which resulted in psionic radiation fallout on the newly created races of the Rebirth- which had the effect of giving them huge psionic potential. Now thousands and thousands of years later, the energy has saturated most every creature on Athas, which would allow for kreen, halflings, and the gith survivors to get psionic powers too.
If we really want the githyanki githzerai fight on Athas, then psi-bombs (or an epic powers equivalent) with wide spread effects could have possibly created null or potent psionic zones on Athas, could lead to interesting places.
Or if the fight took place on the Astral with the gith being the result of githyanki caught within the effects of the Astral being severed from Athas... a result of a psi-bomb/epic psi power gone out of control, that would be fun...
Thinking along the lines of epic power gone wrong rather a psi-bomb, I guess the latter just feels wrong.
Hate being picky, the Black Spine states that the githyanki settled on Athas about a millennia ago, placing it within the SK's time period. Rather than the Rebirth at 14,000 years.
Heh, yep. That is why we are talking about changing the timeframe a little. ;)
Or at least that is why I am talking about it anyways.
Hate being picky, the Black Spine states that the githyanki settled on Athas about a millennia ago, placing it within the SK's time period. Rather than the Rebirth at 14,000 years.
If we really want the githyanki githzerai fight on Athas, then psi-bombs (or an epic powers equivalent) with wide spread effects could have possibly created null or potent psionic zones on Athas, could lead to interesting places.
Yes, in agreement here. The time differential is too great for the bomb to have been the factor behind the predominence of psionics in all living things.
Also, saying that the bomb is indeed the factor sounds like a legend, from people who found out about the bomb and who think the world is pretty young (one or two thousand years old, certainly not 14,000). That's a possibility.
I also like Bell's idea of the bomb having some major impact on local psionics, like null psionic fields and stuff.
I'll definately be using that one.
Heh, yep. That is why we are talking about changing the timeframe a little. ;)
Or at least that is why I am talking about it anyways.
agreed.
Sounds like a great reason to rewrite the timeline. The idea really helps to tie the githyanki invasion to the development of the world.
I'll definately be using that one.
Out of curiosity, why do we need a githyanki invasion to explain the development of the world, when Athas has it's own unique events (bearing in mind that the Rebirth just preceded the first uses of psionics and that the Pristine Tower is one of the greatest artifacts I can think of)?
Don't get me wrong I have nothing against the githyanki/githzerai, they are great high level fun for DMs to work with, and their interaction with Athas does have merits, but to base one of the premise for the setting on this...
Out of curiosity, why do we need a githyanki invasion to explain the development of the world, when Athas has it's own unique events (bearing in mind that the Rebirth just preceded the first uses of psionics and that the Pristine Tower is one of the greatest artifacts I can think of)?
My main issue is tying everything to the Pristine Tower, it gets old and I want something unique. Black Spine gives us that, and if we can just simply tweak the timeline a little, then so be it.
Kinda like the way some like to tie everything to Rajaat (and yes, even I fall into this trap sometimes).
Thanks for info
Combination of Black Spine
and
Dragon's Crown
Out of curiosity, why do we need a githyanki invasion to explain the development of the world, when Athas has it's own unique events (bearing in mind that the Rebirth just preceded the first uses of psionics and that the Pristine Tower is one of the greatest artifacts I can think of)?
Don't get me wrong I have nothing against the githyanki/githzerai, they are great high level fun for DMs to work with, and their interaction with Athas does have merits, but to base one of the premise for the setting on this...
Well, we don't.
Its just an interesting event in athasian history that could have much wider impications and connection to the setting, rather then just being were the gith came from.
Besides like Nytcrawler said, tying everything directly to Rajaat and the Pristine tower gets a little boring.
Besides like Nytcrawler said, tying everything directly to Rajaat and the Pristine tower gets a little boring.
I don't feel that way. Besides, it can be attributed to the yellow sun, and how it changed every living thing. Now its passed on lineages even though the sun no longer is yellow.
I don't feel that way. Besides, it can be attributed to the yellow sun, and how it changed every living thing. Now its passed on lineages even though the sun no longer is yellow.
Sorry, we're not talking about a planet full of Kryptonians, so I'm going to say "cheesy" if we attribute the psionics to the Yellow Sun. Honestly, I like the idea that a number of different events in history affected each other and built up to the conditions we have today, rather than only 2 events (the use of the Pristine Tower, and Rajaat's development of Arcane Magic) being attributed to the cause of every problem. What's the harm in the notion that Githyanki had broken through the Gray once or twice -- especially as there is materials already published claiming just that. The timing more or less sucks for the "firt" one which had the psi-bomb, so we can adjust the scale a bit and move it to a timeframe that works better -- we're talking about the Githyanki -- if ANYONE was to figure out a way to breach into the Gray from the Astral Plane, it would be the race that LIVES in the Astral Plane and spends their entire existence invading worlds.
I like the idea that both the Pristine Tower and the Psi-Bomb could have interacted with each other to make Psionics work. If the Psi-Bomb went off and the energy from that explosion got close enough to the Pristine Tower -- it could have introduced an "unknown" element to the Pristine Tower's makeup -- and the Tower itself then altered the biochemistry of the beings in the world granting Psionics inadvertently (sort of a side-effect).
Sure, the Black Spines adventure was fun, and well written, yet to me it was horribly marred with non-DS stuff, i.e. the gythianki themselves, the origin of the gith, and all those otherwordly creatures and PC races trapped within the prisons of the gythianki city. The psibomb was the ultimate killer, positionning itself as a major event in athasian history. To me its the same as if an adventure had said that Orcus was the source of the obsidian flow in the Dead Lands.
Thank God the dates don't match and the athas.org team probably won't be able to make the psibomb into the psionic-inducing worldwide event that it was hinted at in Black Spines. Which leaves the psionics in the same boat as the growing silt sea: their origins are mysteries, but we know the relevant dates and can determine that they probably are related to other events that occured at the same time (psionics: Rebirth; turning of the sea into silt: use of defiling during the Cleansing Wars or the turning of the sun crimson by the Champions' creation).
That's about it. Now go on and have fun without me! :D
To me its the same as if an adventure had said that Orcus was the source of the obsidian flow in the Dead Lands.
STOP READING MY MIND FROM THE PAST!!!!
:D
If Orcus had indeed created the Dead Lands, I probably would have loved it...back then.
Why, if spelljamming had been included I would have jumped at the chance to marry the two sets of materials I owned...back then.
I like the idea that both the Pristine Tower and the Psi-Bomb could have interacted with each other to make Psionics work. If the Psi-Bomb went off and the energy from that explosion got close enough to the Pristine Tower -- it could have introduced an "unknown" element to the Pristine Tower's makeup -- and the Tower itself then altered the biochemistry of the beings in the world granting Psionics inadvertently (sort of a side-effect).
Anyone remember the last episode of Star Trek the Next Generation? This idea would sort of works in that same vein. A quasi-cosmic accident that inadvertently lead to the phenomena known as psionics on Athas.
Its true! I loved the adventure...back then. Now i'm a Purist. I voted for Rajaat and the Pristine Tower in the last elections.
If Orcus had indeed created the Dead Lands, I probably would have loved it...back then.
Why, if spelljamming had been included I would have jumped at the chance to marry the two sets of materials I owned...back then.
Well, Penn, you gotta admit -- you have some controversial stuff you cling to that others don't agree with, like Pennarin, or more specifically, a number of the elements from Rise & Fall. Everyone does. I'm not advocating making the Psi-bomb idea I've mentioned here as "official" -- just that I don't see a problem with it being there. In fact, I like how it can be used to color in some of the weirdness that is Dark Sun. I don't like external elements brought into Dark Sun, and I like to keep it more or less separated from things, but the occasional little slip of something from outside Athas brought in to me is intriguing -- and the idea of the Githyanki/Psi-bomb provides such an element for me. See, I don't like things completely cut-and-dry all the time. I like a little rough edges, things that seem a little out of place, but can be incorperated into the setting. Things that my players may never, ever deal with personally, but color how I present the world, to add a level of mystery to it all.
One way I look at it is... the official timeline explains that Rajaat was attempting to breach the Gray, and get beyond it -- that's what spurned the whole process that led to the Deadlands, if I remember correctly. Now, for him to even comprehend that there is something beyond the Gray (which as a plane of it's nature, I'd figure that within the Gray, it's an infinitely-sized plane of existance anyway). It would be a foreign concept to anyone living within the Gray to even recognize what a plane outside of the Gray could be, or even that there is anything outside -- especially when everything in the Gray is the whole of existence. So, if he was attempting to get outside the Gray, I figure he had to somehow have found out there was something outside the Gray -- and that means, most likely, that there would have to be something he found to suggest there is more to the universe than he had access to. So, things like the Githyanki Psi-bomb, things like the Psurlions (sp?), etc. Creatures or things that are not native to Athas would be around to spark this idea.
I'm just saying that for my campaigns, I like the idea of the Psi-Bomb. I like integrating it in there, it adds an additional color to the setting's history without affecting the setting any more than that. It makes the world have an additional detail that is pleasing to my view of Athas, while still keeps Athas in a "pure" and separate existence. I'm not advocating full access to the rest of the D&D Cosmology, I'm not advocating a full re-merging of Athas into everything else D&D. I'm stating it's an anomaly that sparks curiosity.
I'm liking the idea of there being a kind of outer planar universe out there, reachable from Athas. I think it could be accessible only through Rajaat's Gray-piercing experiments or through the mirror artifact, or it could be that this universe is probabilistic, a characteristic of the Black (like Greyorm proposed back when), i.e. the Black is filled with parallel universes and other dimensions, popping in and out, and accessible to those tuned to it.
What I don't like - for myself - is when this "outer planar universe" I mention above is the D&D great wheel, with Oerth, Toril, Sigil, and the phlogistion in it. Githyanki included.
I hope I've expressed a bit more clearly my...feelings about all this talk. Go ahead and have fun with discussing it further, just like I have fun discussing the more unorthodox parts of Rise and Fall in other threads. :D
I shouldn't even be discussing this further, since I've already stated I have no prob with people unofficialy discussing this stuff. It just seems I cannot say no to a good discussion on meta-elements! :P
P.S. I should not even have problems with people discussing this stuff in an official capacity either, but like everyone else I don't like people telling me what consensus the boards have reached on a particular subject when I know this consensus is about 5 guys and too many beers. (Here I'm not talking about you but about other people I've come across. They come in, speak in a few threads, and then think they have the pulse of the boards under their fingers.)
On a serious note, I agree with what xlor, sage, etc are saying about this event making for a more interesting history of Athas, but at the same time I dislike the idea of trying to incorporate Dark Sun into the rest of the D&D multiverse.
I prefer to believe that the gith had much difficulty breaking into Athas and several damaging events occurred together which led to the drastic/catastrophic changes in Athas' history.
Edit: Agreed, Sysane - there's always a way to turn things around to something more along the lines of what you're comfortable with
Look, to me its simple (I'm gonna expose my position and then shut up): Gythianki, astral, ethereal, outer planes, and demons, are all stupid elements that TSR should never have incorporated into DS. It doesn't need any of it.
Sure, the Black Spines adventure was fun, and well written, yet to me it was horribly marred with non-DS stuff, i.e. the gythianki themselves, the origin of the gith, and all those otherwordly creatures and PC races trapped within the prisons of the gythianki city. The psibomb was the ultimate killer, positionning itself as a major event in athasian history. To me its the same as if an adventure had said that Orcus was the source of the obsidian flow in the Dead Lands.
Thank God the dates don't match and the athas.org team probably won't be able to make the psibomb into the psionic-inducing worldwide event that it was hinted at in Black Spines. Which leaves the psionics in the same boat as the growing silt sea: their origins are mysteries, but we know the relevant dates and can determine that they probably are related to other events that occured at the same time (psionics: Rebirth; turning of the sea into silt: use of defiling during the Cleansing Wars or the turning of the sun crimson by the Champions' creation).
That's about it. Now go on and have fun without me! :D
This sums up my position perfectly.
Sysane's right, these discussions are pretty moot in that they do not have an effect on modern day events. Moot, but fun nonetheless.
Agreed
In the end does it really matter? The results are the same for modern day Athas regardless of the origin of psionics.
It matters to me...
Its alright. Here have a chicken
Ya the psibomb had to have been right at the beginning of the Rebirth- the githyanki came to Athas (via the Planar Gate would be a great explanation for it being able to allow Dregoth access to the other planes) and something happened that caused some huge fight- the psibomb was used on one of the gith types while the user of the bomb made their escape through the Gate- leaving the psionically stripped suriviors behind to degenerage into the gith of today.
The Planar Gate's description in Psionic Artifacts states that it was made during the Green Age by psionicists so powerful that not even a sorcerer-king could build a duplicate - Dregoth figured out how to get it to work, but that's as far as his knowledge of the thing goes. So if the psi-bomb had an influence on Green Age psionics, it would have had to occur long before the Gate was made...which as others have stated, causes a lot of problems, timeline-wise.
The bomb, IMO, was used to kill off psionic powers of the others by unleashing a huge psionic explosion- which resulted in psionic radiation fallout on the newly created races of the Rebirth- which had the effect of giving them huge psionic potential. Now thousands and thousands of years later, the energy has saturated most every creature on Athas, which would allow for kreen, halflings, and the gith survivors to get psionic powers too.
The Wanderer's Chronicle says that it was the Rebirth + the Pristine Tower that caused all creatures to become wild talents, and from there the psionics was developed and taken to an extreme level.
However, you gave me a good thought - what if the psi-bomb, rather than having "kick-started" the psionics of the Green Age, instead helped "repopulate" Athas with psionic creatures following the Cleansing Wars? By the time the Cleansing Wars came to a close, the world's ecology was so changed that there wouldn't have been many non-humanoid creatures left, and those that were left would probably just have filled specific niches here and there. So if it was then - 2000ish years ago - that the psi-bomb went off, it could explain how there are now all sorts of desert-adapted creatures roaming around, many/most of whom have psionic powers: the psi-bomb in essence created a "mini-Rebirth" of non-humanoid creatures, allowing the ecology of Athas to restructure itself in an amount of time which, on an evolutionary timeframe, is totally nonsensical. The bomb could have interacted with the Pristine Tower as well, or not, doesn't really matter...in either case it allows for keeping the psi-bomb a part of the actual timeline, expains something that has bothered me for a long time (wasteland being populated with all sorts of nasties in only a few millenia), and doesn't cause any conflicts with the Green Age psionics being a result of the Rebirth + Pristine Tower's influence.