The Known World
Karameikos: Politically, England circa 1100 AD. The Thyatian lords are the Normans, the Traldar are the Saxons. Culturally, it is more like post-classical Romania with Byzantine Empire overlords.
Ylaruam - This represents the entire Arabian caliphate region at its intellectual and cultural height. Geographically, it is a mix of Arabia, the Gulf states, and Persia.
Glantri - ?
Ierendi - a mix of Hawaii, Caribbean, Morocco, and Lebanon. If Mystara had a movie industry, Casablanca would be set here.
Alfheim - umm, elves?
Rockhome - umm, dwarves?
Ostland - vikings as semi-organised raiders and pirates
Vestland - vikings as a civilized unitary kingdom
Soderfjord - vikings as squabbling microstates
Shires - LotR shires. This was itself inspired by an idealized version of pre-industrial rural England.
Minrothad - Venetian Republic
Broken Lands - ?
Darokin - USA circa 1900
Ethengar - Mongolia under Ghengis Khan
Shadow Elves - ?
Atruaghin - Native Americans
Thyatis - Romano-Byzantine Empire
Sind - Indian subcontinent before contact with Europe. Geographically, it is the River Ganges and the Thar Desert.
Heldann - Teutonic knights
Wendar - Elves and humans live side by side in harmony and build towns and cities among the great pine forests, protected by the magic of the fabled Elvenstar. Some stuff about stone circles too.
Denagoth - ?
Norwold - ?
Pearl Islands - Polynesia
Ochalea - mix of China and Japan
----
Any corrections or additions?
Some edits to incorporate the comments. I don't buy the bit about Ylaruam having Egyptian geography. It's missing a rather big river.
Karameikos=post-classical Balkan states... (Greece with Romany, Transylvania, etc influences)... think Eastern Europe circa 1300ad... still had tints of the original culture, but still suffering from the Roman/Byzantine (by this time, Holy Roman Empire) conquest some 200 yrs before.
Karameikos: England circa 1100 AD. The Thyatian lords are the Normans, the Traldar are the Saxons.
Karameikos is Transylvania, occupied by Byzantines. It's a land haunted by vampires and werewolves, most of it wilderness, unlike England post-conquest.
Ylaruam - Arabian peninsula circa 1000 AD
Abbassid Empire period, I'd say, with Egyptian geography.
Glantri - ?
The medieval Balkans, a cauldron of micro-cultures, united in a league.
Alfheim - ?
Rockhome ?
Lorien and Moria writ large
Ostland - viking as semi-organised raiders and pirates
Vestland - vikings as a civilized unitary kingdom
Soderfjord - vikings as squabbling microstates
Ostland = 7th-10th century Vikings
Vestland = Kingdom of Canute
Soderfjord = 10th-11th century Vikings
Shires - ?
The dream of peasant life in Medieval England.
Minrothad - Venetian Empire
That's a good one.
Broken Lands - ?
No close equivalent, really.
Darokin - USA circa 1900
The USA, circa 1900, as imagined by Horatio Alger.
Ethengar - Mongolia under Ghengis Khan
Yes.
Shadow Elves - ?
The Anti-Drow.
Atruaghin - Native Americans
Thyatis - Romano-Byzantine Empire
Sind - Indian subcontinent before contact with Europe
Heldann - Teutonic knights
All right.
Pearl Islands - ?
Ochalea - mix of China and Japan
Pearl Islands = Polynesia.
Glantri - ?
By principality:
Aalban: (southern?) Germany
Nouvelle Averoigne: France
Caurenze: Italian principalities during Renaissance
Fenswick: England
Klantyre: Scotland
Boldavia: Romania
Linden: Flanders
Belcadiz: Spain
Krondahar: Mongol
Silverston and Erewan are not so characterized.
Alfheim - LotR Lorien
Rockhome LotR Moria
I can't see how Mystaran elves and dwarves could be similar to Tolkien ones. As far as *D&D demihumans go, they're quite far from it.
Ostland - vikings as semi-organised raiders and pirates
Vestland - vikings as a civilized unitary kingdom
Soderfjord - vikings as squabbling microstates
Soderfjord is quite like Iceland in the sagas (e.g., Njal's Saga).
Broken Lands - ?
Variable: each domain is more or less based on one of the neighbouring human nations (or vice versa), though usually cruder and more barbaric.
Specifically:
Red Orcland: Atruaghin Clans
Yellow Orcland, Hobgobland: Ethengar
South Gnollistan: Ylaruam
Ogremoor: Sind
Kolland: Thyatis
Orcus Rex, Trollhattan, Bugburbia and High Gobliny are less characterized.
Shadow Elves - ?
From the linguistic and political point of view they do not fit with specific human model. Their religion (and their conflict with Alfheim) may be inspired by modern middle eastern models.
Thyatis - Romano-Byzantine Empire
Also, some details from British Empire.
The Hinterlands (and partially the IoD) are celtic.
Wendar - ?
Like Norwold, these are based on Iceland and Scandinavia, though more idealized then the (quite realistic) Northern Reaches.
Denagoth - ?
One of the few LotR-like things in Mystara, I'd say -- a Dark Lord with a goblinoid army ruling lands inhabited by both goblinoids and "dark" humans, near to the ruins of a noble kingdom (Essuria) as well as lost elven lands (Lothenar).
Some edits to incorporate the comments. I don't buy the bit about Ylaruam having Egyptian geography. It's missing a rather big river.
It's there, just dig under the sand [;)]
Seriously, there's the old Nithia river running underground from Rockhome through the Ust-Urt valley (in Makistan) to the Barimoor complex under the oases.
Ylaruam models the whole arabian caliphate, different (perhaps too much given the size) areas fitting into a single nation (e.g., Ylaruam is Baghdad more than Mecca, Makistan models the muslim areas of central Asia, and so on).
I can't see how Mystaran elves and dwarves could be similar to Tolkien ones. As far as *D&D demihumans go, they're quite far from it.
They are derived from Tolkien, as are their countries, though they certainly have a flair of their own. The elves also have alot of ElfQuest in them.
Soderfjord is quite like Iceland in the sagas (e.g., Njal's Saga).
I'd say all of the Northern Reaches have some from each of the Scandinavian countries in them, though reflecting different time periods more than one specific country.
One of the few LotR-like things in Mystara, I'd say -- a Dark Lord with a goblinoid army ruling lands inhabited by both goblinoids and "dark" humans, near to the ruins of a noble kingdom (Essuria) as well as lost elven lands (Lothenar).
I'd add Wendar to the list of Tokienesque countries since X11 was in general very inspired by Tolkien.
By the way this thread is more interesting than I thought it would be. And we still havent covered the Hollow World, The Savage Coast or Myoshima...
Håvard
Just out of curiosity, what are teh canonical reference works for Denagoth and Wendar? They never did get round to publishing a gazeteer.
they were introduced in the module X11 Saga of the Shadow Lord and then in the Almanacs since then 1010-1013 for Wendar and 1011-1012 for Denagoth.
Ostland - vikings as semi-organised raiders and pirates
Vestland - vikings as a civilized unitary kingdom
Soderfjord - vikings as squabbling microstates
I'd say that:
Ostland (
Vestland - Vestlund, pron: VEST loond, literally "west land"
Ostland -
My dad, who speaks Danish, Sweedish, and Norwegan in varying degrees of fluency. once described to be precisely which of the Noreach nations correspond to which real-world cultures. I don't remember which is which, but I do remember the spelling he used for each, being
Vestland - Vestlund, pron: VEST loond, literally "west land"
Ostland -
I'd say all of the Northern Reaches have some from each of the Scandinavian countries in them, though reflecting different time periods more than one specific country.
I would agree with this statement myself. It is a situation that is similarly reflected among some of the Savage Coastal nations (and, if I ever get around to it, will be the case with certain Sindhi states as well as Ochalean ones).
They are derived from Tolkien, as are their countries, though they certainly have a flair of their own. The elves also have alot of ElfQuest in them.
Of course, but then all demihumans in *D&D derive from Tolkien. my point is that Mystaran demihumans are much less Tolkienesque than, say, Birthright dwarves and elves (though certainly more than, say, Dark Sun demihumans).
E.g., I don't see the dwarven politics, as described in the GAZ, as anywhere like Tolkien's dwarves.
I'd add Wendar to the list of Tokienesque countries since X11 was in general very inspired by Tolkien.
Well, Wendar happears also in other, less Tolkien-inspired, Mystaran resources. And the current Wendar is somewhat different, in feeling at least, from the X11 nation.
Of course, but then all demihumans in *D&D derive from Tolkien. my point is that Mystaran demihumans are much less Tolkienesque than, say, Birthright dwarves and elves (though certainly more than, say, Dark Sun demihumans).
E.g., I don't see the dwarven politics, as described in the GAZ, as anywhere like Tolkien's dwarves.
Agreed.
Well, Wendar happears also in other, less Tolkien-inspired, Mystaran resources. And the current Wendar is somewhat different, in feeling at least, from the X11 nation.
You are probably right, especially if we take fan-based creations into consideration. I haven't looked at the Joshuan Almanac in a while.
Håvard
Of course, but then all demihumans in *D&D derive from Tolkien.
Dwarves and Elves have been around for centuries before Tolkien ever wrote about them. Further, the versions Tolkien used were themselves derived from previous mythological archetypes, so "copying" Tolkien is also "copying" traditional European versions, and it would be rather difficult to separate the two.
Gnomes, while not a PC race in OD&D are mentioned in it, and appear nowhere in Tolkien.
Halflings have the strongest direct connection, but that is primarily a choice of individual DMs and later authors. The Hin of the Five Shires for instance are known pirates, something Tolkien Halflings would never even contemplate doing.
So while it has become "common" to try and trace everything in fantasy to Tolkien, it is simply not true for Dwarves, Elves, or Gnomes, and often limited to little more than a name and a height for Halflings.
Tolkien's elves look like tall, beautiful, immortal, glowing humans.
D&D elves are short, beautiful, not immortal, not glowing, pointy-eared faery humans. They seem more chaotic and less serious, less burdened by the long centuries.
Gygax always claimed his dwarves weren't based on Tolkien's, but it's harder to point out meaningful differences. Except for the female dwarf beards.
Geographically, the shires are an idealised England, and owes much to Tolkein. Rockhome is Switzerland. Alfheim, dunno.
Politically, both Alheim and Rockhome are fairly standard very old absolute monarchies, along the lines of France and Russia (pre-revolution).
The Hin are fearsome defenders of the home, with weird Lewis Carroll style monsters and a navy that switches to piracy in times of relative peace. This is almost as if it were an Alice in Wonderland re-interpretation of England.
Geographically, the shires are an idealised England, and owes much to Tolkein. Rockhome is Switzerland. Alfheim, dunno.
The Kogolor dwarves, certainly, are modeled after Switzerland, but I don't so much see the Rockhome dwarves in that vein. Nothing in the Gaz really screams out "Swiss" to me.
Culturally and politically, I agree they are nothing alike.
Also Rhialto, why don't you update the list with the additions? It's quite a useful list.
Hollow World
Antalia
Azca
Beastmen
Blacklore Elves
Brute-Men
Gentle Folk
Hutaaka
Icevale Elves
Jennites
Kogolors
Krugel Hordes
Kubitts
Malpheggi
Merry Pirates
Milenia
Neathar
Nithia
Oltecs
Oostdok
Schattenalfheim
Shahjapur
Stonecarvers
Tanagoro
Traldar
Savage Coast
City States (Slagovich, Hojah, Nova Svoga, Zvornik, Zagora)
Hule
Vilaverde
Torreón
Texeiras
Narvaez
Gargoña
Saragón
Almarrón
Guadalante
Cimarron
Tortles
Eusdria
Robrenn
Renardy
Bellayne
Herath
Ator
Shazak
Cay
Wallara
Jibarú
Nimmur
Dark Jungle Orcs
Aeryl
Eshu
Did I forget any?
Minrothad - Venetian Empire
As I'm Italian, I know better Venetian Republic. It interesting to note that Venetians ships (as it was a REPUBLIC) were state propriety. Ships capitains were state officials.
It is quite different than Minrothad, where ships are captain's own thing.
In Genoa, instead, ships were private's.
Guild system maybe is inspired to Italian Republics of Venice, Genoa, Pisa and Amalfi, the 4 sea powers from Italy.
I see also some Dutch flavour in Minrothad: remember of West India Company. And Minrothad names are not Italian sounding.
Venetians, Genoeses and Dutches, all had colonies all over the world, to act as ports. The Venetian world is "fondaco". A fondaco is something like a port, a colony, an embassy and a storehouse.
As that, I think there would be some Minrothaddan fondaco somewere in the world. In my Mystara Minrothad owns some fondacos in Davania, in Qeodhar, in Aegos, Kastr (south of Slagovich) is a Minrothaddan fondaco and Richland (north of Trident Bay) is one too.
We never did get around to doing the Hollow World cultures, nor the Savage Coast.
Interesting that you should bring this up, as this section/thread is one that I am referring to in my revision of the FAQ!
Antalia: These seem to be pre-viking era peoples (the Germanii, or Germanic Tribes, I'd say would be the best fit).
Azca: Quite obviously the Aztec.
Beastmen: They don't seem to have a direct correspondence. Some thoughts would be the Inuit, or other northern Native American tribes, or possibly (even further back) some Siberian tribal groups (pre-Bering migration).
Blacklore Elves: No real correspondence to the RW, if only due to the futuristic technology. Havard has made some suggestions before, and one that came to mind with his (admittedly not quite canon) portrayal of them as decadent and cruel overlords was the Melniboneans of Moorcockian fame (with advanced technology replacing the Melnibonean sorcery). That's actually a take that I sort of like. Maybe someone else has some sci-fi or fantastic cultural comparison suggestions, though?
Brute-Men: Neanderthals
Gentle Folk: Again, they don't seem to have any correspondence. I'd like to see something more than just "uber-pacifists" done with them myself, though. That is so one note, they don't have any real use beyond a one-time curiosity factor.
Hutaaka: Egyptian of some sort. I'd suggest Ptolemaic-era Egyptians, perhaps, as that era represented a time when outsiders ruled over the Egyptians). I'm not enough of an Egyptian historian, though, to know what really fits the best.
Icevale Elves: No real correspondence. Maybe some of the Russian tribal groups? Avars, maybe? (Though the naming conventions are strictly Nordic/Germanic).
Jennites: Scythians
Kogolors: Seem to be Swiss (yodelers, leiderhosen, etc.)
Krugel Hordes: Patagonian gauchos
Kubitts: Nothing. Anyone have some ideas?
Malpheggi: Dunno. Don't think they have anything really beyond "swamp dwelling lizard-men", although I think we can come up with something better ourselves. Maybe something along the lines of the Okavongo Delta peoples of Botswana, or something?
Merry Pirates: A melange of other piratical cultures.
Milenia: Classical Greeks
Neathar: Early tribal mankind, pre any really distinguishing features, at least in theory. In practice, they are really standard fantasy "cave man" cultures- featuring eagle riders, dinosaur tamers, etc.
Nithia: Pharaonic Egypt.
Oltecs: Toltecs, in theory, although their location and description seems more Inca-like to me.
Oostdok: No real culture, although the gnomes of Oostdok have a definite Swiss sort of feel, with their naming conventions and their "banker" culture. Since we know that gnomes were created from Outer World dwarves that weren't changed by Kagyar, it is reasonable to assume that their Swiss-like cultural elements are holdovers of the Kogolor dwarves, and the Oostdokers, then, seem to possess a more direct lineage to the Kogolors than do the Rockhome dwarves.
Schattenalfheim: Nothing that I can think of. Very Aztec like in many ways (a bit too Aztec like, IMO).
Shahjapur: Mughal-era India.
Stonecarvers: Not sure. These are the Colimans, right? I think they were supposed to be Aztec originally, but they don't seem to have any RW correspondence that I can recall.
Tanagoro: Seem to consist of a variety of different tribal groups of African origin, with none particularly standing out as singularly "Tanagoro", at least to me (but my knowledge of African history/cultures is somewhat lacking). I think that there is a lot of room to expand this area with all the various tribal cultures/kingdoms in pre-European African history.
Traldar: Seem to be bronze-age Greeks, in the Hollow World, although the Outer World Traldar are distinctly more Slavic.
Stonecarvers: Not sure. These are the Colimans, right? I think they were supposed to be Aztec originally, but they don't seem to have any RW correspondence that I can recall.
Easter Islanders? There seems to be some suggestion out there that they might even be South American in origin.
Easter Islanders? There seems to be some suggestion out there that they might even be South American in origin.
For some reason Easter Islanders were also in my mind, although I don't know if there's any validity in the comparison.
Well, other than the big stone heads. :P
Schattenalfheim: Nothing that I can think of. Very Aztec like in many ways (a bit too Aztec like, IMO).
They have German namings.
Hutaaka: Egyptian of some sort. I'd suggest Ptolemaic-era Egyptians, perhaps, as that era represented a time when outsiders ruled over the Egyptians). I'm not enough of an Egyptian historian, though, to know what really fits the best.
Indeed the hutaaka have names and culture similar to the theocratic model of early Mesopotamian societies. IMHO the Ptolemaic-era Egyptians are the Thotians in the IoD.
Just a couple of thoughts on your Wiki entry- Bruce Heard has said that the Robrenn were Gauls, not Celts (admittedly, both very closely related/tied together, but there are differences).
There's no difference between gauls and celts, the first one is the name given by the latins (Galli), the last by the greeks (Keltai), even though we use to call gauls only the inhabitants of the roman provinces, and celts all the others (especially those of the British Islands).
Quote:
Just a couple of thoughts on your Wiki entry- Bruce Heard has said that the Robrenn were Gauls, not Celts (admittedly, both very closely related/tied together, but there are differences).
There's no difference between gauls and celts, the first one is the name given by the latins (Galli), the last by the greeks (Keltai), even though we use to call gauls only the inhabitants of the roman provinces, and celts all the others (especially those of the British Islands).
The Celts were a group of indo-Europeans who shared a common language and similar culture which spread across all of Europe at their height, covering an area only slightly smaller than the Roman Empire (larger, if you count land-mass only). Among them are the well known P-Celts (referring to their language) Scots, Irish; the C-Celts, Welsh, Manx, Britons (north France); and G-Celts, the Gauls (France & Germany) and Iberians (Spain)... There were other unconnected tribes scattered throughout Europe.
(Not that it matters, the only real difference that would transfer to game-terms is so insignificant, you'd have to be a Celtic archiologist to notice.
Roger
(Not that it matters, the only real difference that would transfer to game-terms is so insignificant, you'd have to be a Celtic archiologist to notice.
Be careful what assumptions you make, Roger. Anyone who grew up in one of the areas you just described would I am sure disagree that the differences are insignificant.
For example, I myself come from the Orkney Isles, which were Pictish before the Vikings moved in. In all likelihood my ancestors belong more to the latter, but the Picts are nonetheless a part of my heritage. In theory they are part of the Celtic culture, and yet there is not a huge amount known about them, including even such basic things as what language they spoke. To say that it's not that important is the same as saying that it's not important which tribe of Native Americans you are talking about.
Among them are the well known P-Celts (referring to their language) Scots, Irish; the C-Celts, Welsh, Manx, Britons (north France); and G-Celts, the Gauls (France & Germany) and Iberians (Spain)... There were other unconnected tribes scattered throughout Europe.
I know only P-Celtic and Q-Celtic, but it's a linguistic difference, not cultural. The Gauls was the Celts who were in touch with Romans in France, Germany and Italy (Galli Senoni and Galli Boi), so called in latin. Obviously some difference was, but all the tribes had the same cultural origins ;) .
In theory they are part of the Celtic culture, and yet there is not a huge amount known about them, including even such basic things as what language they spoke.
IIRC there's no certainty, the picts indeed seems were not celts, and they were influenced by the Scotii later.
Indeed the hutaaka have names and culture similar to the theocratic model of early Mesopotamian societies. IMHO the Ptolemaic-era Egyptians are the Thotians in the IoD.
Hadn't noticed the names being similar to anything Mesopotamian, though I've been reading a book about linguistics recently, so it's something to keep an eye out for. I'll look into it more- could be you've discovered something there (which would be sweet, to be able to pin them down a bit more fully).
As far as "insignificant differences", I was referring to the over-simplification that would generally be required for describing the cultures in game-terms. A Spanish-speaker, for instance, would immediately notice the difference in language between Spanish, Mexican dialect and Argentine.... but to an English-speaking American like me, it's all Greek.
But going back to the original topic--it would be true to state that all Gauls are Celts but not all Celts are Gauls...
Roger