They go as follow:
1. Can energy gathering (EG) "pass" through walls and reach plants located beyond a wall?
2. Is line of effect required for EG or can the stream of life energy turn corners, so to speak.
3. At what distance within an area of total defilement (let's say several square miles) does EG stop working?
4. At what height a wizard standing above his source of life energy can no longer use EG?
I understand that most if not all of those points should be left to DMs to decide, but for my needs (in crafting this special material I talked about) I'm interested in getting ideas on point #4.
In my attempts in coming up with mechanics for a special material for the upcoming Guide, I stumbled on mechanical "problems" related to a wizard's energy gathering.
They go as follow:
1. Can energy gathering (EG) "pass" through walls and reach plants located beyond a wall?
Of course. The energy is basically in the ground, in the seeds and underground plants.
2. Is line of effect required for EG or can the stream of life energy turn corners, so to speak.
Same answer as above. It's the radius that counts.
3. At what distance within an area of total defilement (let's say several square miles) does EG stop working?
Immediately I say. In total defilement there's no more energy to be drawn unless your radius as a defiler/preserver supercedes the radius of the previous defiler. Feats would help in this. also spell levels. Higher spells could have bigger radiuses, but again the patch of dead land IN your radius of defilement weakend the spell. Same goes for preservers, or should I say - it's much harder for them.
4. At what height a wizard standing above his source of life energy can no longer use EG?
Judging from the books, the spellcasters always lowered their hands to be as close to ground as possible when gathering energy. Personally I assume the half-giants could also be wizards so with their hand-to-ground distance of 2 meters it would still work. I'd put a limit to some 3 meters.. 10 feet if you wish.
I understand that most if not all of those points should be left to DMs to decide, but for my needs (in crafting this special material I talked about) I'm interested in getting ideas on point #4.
Well, hope I helped.
In my attempts in coming up with mechanics for a special material for the upcoming Guide, I stumbled on mechanical "problems" related to a wizard's energy gathering.
They go as follow:
1. Can energy gathering (EG) "pass" through walls and reach plants located beyond a wall?
I'd say yes, however it generally goes through the ground, rather than a wall I would reckon -- considering what energy gathering does to the surrounding terrain.
2. Is line of effect required for EG or can the stream of life energy turn corners, so to speak.
I'd say straight-line, or a curve where it bends down into the ground and then back up to the spellcaster.
3. At what distance within an area of total defilement (let's say several square miles) does EG stop working?
I'd say it's a function of spellcaster level & spell level. I don't know the specifics right now.
4. At what height a wizard standing above his source of life energy can no longer use EG?
Same distance as #3 I'd reckon.
I understand that most if not all of those points should be left to DMs to decide, but for my needs (in crafting this special material I talked about) I'm interested in getting ideas on point #4.
k.
So, if I understand you all, EG occurs immediately next to the caster and goes as far as the spell requires (a specific number of feet for defilers, and presumably a similar or larger area for preservers). So, a defiler riding the limit of his spell's range (5th-level spell = 25 ft.) by flying up 20 ft. in the air would fail.
Mmm, then I think we do need to add to DS3 that wizards cannot gather energy from plants if they are, say, 5ft. off the ground. This would prevent someone using Fly or Levitate from using magic, while allowing a person on a hill or mountain to still cast. (Could this be the reason why there are plants on top of the Pristine Tower? To allow Rajaat to cast spells at such height?)
Unless someone remembers an occurence when a novel character uses magic while several stories inside a building, or on top of it? (I seem to recall Sadira and Dhojakt spellslinging in a Nibenay building, and a defiler casting a spell in a trading argosy in the short story included in the Boxed Set.)
If one is in a building I'd say it's the same as on the ground, taking Sadira's example when she was in the tower (at Nibenay?) fighting with elves against Nibenay's son. She had no problem gathering nenrgy no matter she was on 3rd floor.
Furthermore if one was flying or levitating close to the ground, again I'd say 10 feet but could be calculated as 5ft x caster level (maximum distance that allows gathering) over the ground, a wizard could still do it.
Edit: I think this 'rule' bears considerable weight and should be addressed, refined, and included in the official 3e rules.
megatherion, I like your building explanation, makes sense.
I'm also finding reasonable the idea that EG takes energy and moves it into the ground (and buildings) until it reaches the space occupied by the caster, and then rises up in the air to reach his palms. That way a caster can syphon energy from plants located on the other side of a wall.
So, to return to the initial reason for this thread: There should be specific rules concerning the special material I want to create, so as to ensure a caster can't gather energy from under a wall made of it.
But there may be a solution to your problems - if a psion cannot maniphest his powers onto a target shielded by, say, a wall of force (without the burrowing power feat) perhaps the same limitations would apply on draining energy? If a circular wall of force expanding underground would surround a small patch of land, perhaps a defiler without distance raze would be unable to get to the ground behind it? Could use it as an alternate rule, since I don't quite recall reading anywhere that razing had limitations (unless of course the ground was already razed). Perhaps someone at the Bureau should look into it.
As for the distance raze itself - I thing there should be a preserver equivalent - just in case a preserver had to cast on a razed ground (but say, had fertile ground in sight somewhere else)
I wouldn't allow anything to block the gathering of energy (other than special materials intended to have that effect) as this brings balance implications because it weakens the wizard class. If a wall of force can block energy gathering, for example, that spell suddenly gains added effectiveness against wizards, thus moving away from the idea that the DS3 basic wizard should mirror the one in the PHB.
We all know the terrain modifiers when a defiler casts so imagine a setup: a veiled preserver sets out to do battle with a defiler on a small patch of fertile land in the middle of a salt flat. If he ceners himself on that spot and erects a wall of force he stands some chance, but if he is unable to protect the very source for his power - the first spell the defiler casts will raze the ground and the preserver dies the next round, unable to cast anything.
Furthermore. I refuse to believe such or alternate effect (of protecting ground, even oh-so-temporarily) hasn't been made available through preservers or druids for that matter in all the milenia after the cataclysm!
I also agree that spells and other mechanisms could be devised to interfere with energy gathering (like the Grove Masters sacrifice ability). Cool idea. However, those techniques should not be added to existing mechanics (such as the wall of force spell) as this has clear balance implications (not least, in this case, in that the wall of force is now more powerful than another spell of the same level against which it was previously balanced). Come up with new spells or materials.
But if force effects (this is an example, other mechanisms could exist) would not by default protect against razings, then defilers would gain an upper hand in a solo 1 on 1 combat vs preservers in any battle (mage duel). One razes, other has nothing to use. Plus add upon that the defiler feats and we end up quite far from 3.5 rules, where defilers and preservers would be inherently similar in CR.
I dunno. This subject seems very tricky somehow to me. I guess it should be discussed some more only to convince me that defilers aren't by default overpowering against preservers.
Point #3 in my initial post asks the question Does this still occur if you are, say, 3 miles within a vast defiled area? Maybe not.
Same with preserving: Preservers do not need to fear accidentaly defiling the ground because 10 of their numbers are casting in the same spot.
Its like if preservers have a Distance Raze feat built in, allowing them to always have their EG come from an area a few feet outside of a recently tapped area. Same with defilers: if they cast on the spot they defiled a second ago, their current spellcasting causes the existing defiled circle to expand. The defiler does not need to move outside of the circle to cast.
Edit: Oh, to answer your 3 mile question - IMHO there is no difference between a 3 mile patch of defiled ash and 3 mile patch of obsidian. By default there is no spellcasting energy to be gathered on the obsidian flat (unless you carry your wands and staves) so I'd put the same rule here too.
Are you sure that EG on a defiled spot or redefiling wouldn't carry at least terrain penalties? Ie, if one was on a (for example) fertile patch allowing +2 modifier, and razed it, it would be now even more barren than a salt flat or silt sea. I personally would apply a -3 penalty on that patch for the very same reasons - no life is left there at all! Even less than in the normally completely barren silt sea/salt flat.
This thinking of mine is based on the answers of people like Jon and flip (let them tell me I'm remembering incorrectly), their own opinions based on events in the PP: Sadira, IIRC, is seen defiling in the same spot she defiled moments before, and all it does is that the circle of ash is enlarged further.
I'm saying that there could be a ruling that says if you have, say, minimum half-a-mile of defiled ground around you in all directions you cannot enlarge the defiling circle and must move out of it to be able to cast again, and that goes for preservers within the circle as well.
Anyways - that would be the perfect example that defiling was possible but at high penalties, and I dare yet again repeat the -3 modifier that goes witht he dead ground.
I agree with your assessement. Outside even 100-150 yards there would be major problem to drain anything at all. Perhaps every 50 yards after 150 the terrain modifier would drop for another -1?
Jon, we need your wisdom! Please what do you think?
Ok I understand your point - to introduce new mechanics to obitain those functionalities (protecting land from defiling) via new prestige classes/spells.
But if force effects (this is an example, other mechanisms could exist) would not by default protect against razings, then defilers would gain an upper hand in a solo 1 on 1 combat vs preservers in any battle (mage duel). One razes, other has nothing to use. Plus add upon that the defiler feats and we end up quite far from 3.5 rules, where defilers and preservers would be inherently similar in CR.
I dunno. This subject seems very tricky somehow to me. I guess it should be discussed some more only to convince me that defilers aren't by default overpowering against preservers.
From a game balance perspective, the two characters are on an equal footing, as the preserver can spend his own feats to boost his abilities to such a degree that he is on a par with the defiler. Purely within the context of defiling magic vs non-defiling magic, however, yes - the defiler is more powerful. This is intentional and is precisely how the relative power of defiling is represented in athas.org's rules. In the bigger picture, preservers and defilers are more or less equal, however.
As to whether you can still draw energy from defiled ground, the current rules say that defiler's ash is totally devoid of life-giving properties but do not explicitly state whether this means that the defiled area cannot support energy gathering. By comparison, it is explicitly noted that obsidian plains do prevent energy gathering. I agree - it needs a line or two of clarification.
Under the 2e system, a defiler could defile over and over again on the same patch of ground. The only result was that his defiling radius got larger each time, expanding the circle of ash. This implies that there is precedent to allow energy gathering on defiled ground.
(As a house rule in my own games, I allow wizards to gather energy from defiled ground, with the modification that such terrain is treated as being Desolate. Defilers still expand the radius of destruction, as per the 2e rules).
Ash is ash, especially when a defiler razes it, killing billions of microbes per square feet that are the essence of life and allow plants to grow. Without it, ie. without "life", it's simply ash.
Basically defiler razing is not so different than the dragons - killing living cells, but only less powerful since the plants structure is much more fragile (read: simple) than animal/demihuman. It's just that noone in Athas knows much about microbiology so they keep refering to it as "drawing energy" while in fact it's a simple process of drawing the actual life force from the very microbes, and more complicated structures up to and including plant cells. Ask any avangion, they'll tell you the same.
Errrm.. no. sterilized ground is sterilised ground, nothing more. Defile a 20ft radius of land, dig up that ash and replace it with normal earth and it will be fertile again.
Ash is ash, especially when a defiler razes it, killing billions of microbes per square feet that are the essence of life and allow plants to grow. Without it, ie. without "life", it's simply ash.
Basically defiler razing is not so different than the dragons - killing living cells, but only less powerful since the plants structure is much more fragile (read: simple) than animal/demihuman. It's just that noone in Athas knows much about microbiology so they keep refering to it as "drawing energy" while in fact it's a simple process of drawing the actual life force from the very microbes, and more complicated structures up to and including plant cells. Ask any avangion, they'll tell you the same.
Rofl. Well put. Honestly, that's an intriguing counterargument.
I was actually thinking of the negative energy connection there had been before with Dark Sun's arcane spellcasting, as well as something that I can remember Anne Rice describing when her Vampires fed on people (for those, the blood was a transport for the life-force of the individual, which is what they really were after -- reflected in the images, feelings, etc. that were drawn in upon feeding). It's a really off-beat tangent, but what you described doesn't necessarily contradict my idea. The Arcane Spellcaster draws the actual life force from the palnts and microbes within an area. When they defile they end up drawing all of it -- sort of like sucking the last drops of a Coke through a straw.
What if the essence of the death of these things actually gets pulled through the process as well -- something like a negative energy surge at the end, possibly the "addictive" quality of Defiling even (I know, in 3.5e there's really no "defiling addiction" persay). This essence of the death itself permiates the land, leaving a sort of "radiation" effect in the ground, making it incapable of supporting life at all for a long time (until that effect fades over time). Yes, everything in the soil was dead, yes you could transplant the land with fertile soil to make it fertile again (or rather just take the soil that's "corrupted" and make it fertile).
I know it's a little off-kilter, and not quite a fully-developed idea. It's also more or less just a rambling series of thoughts that has no real purpose or point in the mechanical scheme of things. It's just a fluff/flavor idea I had come to me while reading this thread. Take it or leave it, add to it or discard it. I'd be intrigued by people's expansion of this idea, but it's not really all that important.
Just an idea...
Remember the scene in Tribe of One (book 1) when that silly silly templar goes to the graveyard and raises 30HD of zombies? It's exactly as you described it - pure energy, addicrive to the bone, but if he didn't stop sucking it he'd burn and self-combust.
The act of defiling is that which is so seductive as the raw unlimited energy syphons into the defiler (and this is reflected in the rules with the ever-increasing will DC to permanent corruption), while the life-force itself is as neutral as fire or electricity - only a tool that can be used both for good or evil.
I would not say there is a negative energy surge, just the surge. Energy, after all, is eternal delight.
You're right on top of it and you don't even know it. :D
Remember the scene in Tribe of One (book 1) when that silly silly templar goes to the graveyard and raises 30HD of zombies? It's exactly as you described it - pure energy, addicrive to the bone, but if he didn't stop sucking it he'd burn and self-combust.
The act of defiling is that which is so seductive as the raw unlimited energy syphons into the defiler (and this is reflected in the rules with the ever-increasing will DC to permanent corruption), while the life-force itself is as neutral as fire or electricity - only a tool that can be used both for good or evil.
I would not say there is a negative energy surge, just the surge. Energy, after all, is eternal delight.
Believe me, I understand what you're saying, and what you are saying is basically the way I had been seeing it all before this little "side trail" in my mind opened up. I was just thinking about the concept that the Defilers not only take the life-force of the things around them, but overextend beyond it a little bit. Like sucking ALL of the molecules of air from a steel can, and then applying more pressure beyond that, collapsing the can and possibly even pulling some of that can itself into the device that was applying the pressure, clogging the device.
Or, for those who are familiar with the Vampire: the Masquerade (or Vampire: the Requiem) game -- the concept of Diablarie -- not only sucking all of the blood from a vampire victim, but then sucking out it's soul. I'm talking about an after-effect that permiates the land, corrupting it so that it's incapable of supporting life, not just taking all of the energy that there was.
In the various flavor texts, it's explained that when a Defiler destroys the vegitation in the area, that land is incapable of supporting life for as much as centuries -- tending to the land, working it, and revitalizing it can slowly reverse this process, but it seemed to not be able to fully restore the land real quickly; the only "immediate" solution is the non-solution -- transplanting fertile soil in the place of the defiled soil (this doesn't really fix the land, it just makes it someone else's problem). Maybe this has a physical quality of the Defiler's Ash, but I'm thinking on a more metaphysical aspect of everything.
Think carefully on that.. also.. balance it with arcane casting of other worlds too..Should it be Caster Level x 50 feet? or x 100 feet?
Should it be a set amount?
or
Should there be a progressive penalty, like a range increment to EG?
Besides, wouldn't it be cool if one of the SK's was building a giant Death Star out in space to suck all the remaining life energy from Athas as a source of eternal spell-energy fuel, or as a weapon of last resort against the other SK's...or against Rajaat himself? (Hehehe)
"I have built myself a paradise, once activated, I and my chosen children will ascend into the heavens leaving all to perish utterly behind us while I exist forever in eternal bliss!"
I mean, that is the sort of egomaniacal craziness you would expect from an incredibly bored immortal god-king with thousands of years of free time and incredible supernatural powers, plus a newly awakened fear of the only thing in the world more evil, crazy, and powerful than itself: "Put the Blue Age back into THIS, Rajaat!" HRRMMMMM-BZZZZZZZZZZZZZAAAPT!
"There is a disturbance in the force, as of millions of voices crying out and then suddenly silenced!"
Oh, and then you could have a war between the Sphere and rebellious SPACE HALFLINGS! (and their genetically modified Giant Space Hamsters)
WHAT? Stop looking at me like that...
Ok, but seriously, for energy-drawing, I think that the atmosphere thing is reasonable. I like the idea that a defiler can stand in one spot and create these massive circles of devestation around him, and that this is basically what happened during the Cleansing Wars as they sucked the life-energy out of huge areas, killing the land further and further away from where the battles were being fought.
Of course if you want there to be areas where the land has been so badly ravaged that energy simply isn't available to be drawn and spellcasters are put at a disadvantage (such as in the Deadlands), then a distance maximum is definitely a good idea. I would not make it feet, however. I would make it miles. Perhaps a maximum of 1 mile per level.
That is, if you are in a place where there is no life energy to draw, if you are also within one mile of a place that has available life energy, you can draw that to you across the barrens. That would apply for up in the air as well.
Of course if you want there to be areas where the land has been so badly ravaged that energy simply isn't available to be drawn and spellcasters are put at a disadvantage (such as in the Deadlands), then a distance maximum is definitely a good idea. I would not make it feet, however. I would make it miles. Perhaps a maximum of 1 mile per level.
That is, if you are in a place where there is no life energy to draw, if you are also within one mile of a place that has available life energy, you can draw that to you across the barrens. That would apply for up in the air as well.
I agree that the distance should be nonaxial dependant. Distance up or in any other direction, it shouldn't matter. I wouldn't be opposed to say 500ft per level, but a mile/level seems a little large to me. At 500ft per caster level, you still end up gaining the ability to draw energy for miles away eventually. About 1 mile/10 caster levels, so the champions would have been able to draw from around 3-4 miles away (if you estimate their caster levels during the cleansing wars to be 30-40) and could easily have artifacts and abilities that allowed them to reach further.
Honestly though I guess it doesn't matter to me too much, what the official limit is.
1. Can energy gathering (EG) "pass" through walls and reach plants located beyond a wall?
Yes. Energy gathering can penetrate stone, iron, crystal, force etc.
2. Is line of effect required for EG or can the stream of life energy turn corners, so to speak.
Line of sight is not required for energy gathering. It can turn corners.
3. At what distance within an area of total defilement (let's say several square miles) does EG stop working?
Suggestion: 100 feet per spellcaster level.
4. At what height a wizard standing above his source of life energy can no longer use EG?
2E never addressed the implications of flying defilers. I would link this to question #3. Suggestion: 100 feet per spellcaster level.
Note that the defiling radius and its effect on creatures (penalties for those caught in the radius) would still be centered on the caster and follow the standard rules for defiling, even if the energy gathered is from further away. The same applies to an airborne caster.
Are you sure that EG on a defiled spot or redefiling wouldn't carry at least terrain penalties? Ie, if one was on a (for example) fertile patch allowing +2 modifier, and razed it, it would be now even more barren than a salt flat or silt sea. I personally would apply a -3 penalty on that patch for the very same reasons - no life is left there at all! Even less than in the normally completely barren silt sea/salt flat.
I would rule that it doesn't carry any terrain penalties to cast a spell more than once from the same spot, as you would simply pull energy from farther away. Most spells have a 1-action casting time, and a defiler could simply take a move-equivalent action to walk to a fresh spot and cast a spell there, albeit losing the benefit of razing to gain a caster level increase. Your rule could also become problematic in an overlapping defiled and fresh area.
Something to think about is how all this relates to arcane spellcasting while in salt flats or on the silt sea - does the increased difficulty of drawing energy in these locations come from the fact that there's very little, if any, life in the immediate area to draw the energy from, or is it because the energy is being drawn from farther away? Or both?
Did 2nd edition ever explain this?
Did 2nd edition ever explain this?
Good question. I just flipped through Defilers & Preservers, and it basically says that life energy is the "spirit" that gives things the ability to grow. The soil contains a little bit of life energy, having absorbed some from the plants that are growing in it, and it is this energy that seeds use to germinate. Hence, the reason why nothing grows on defiled land - it no longer has that "energy reserve" that new seeds need to start their growth.
It also lists a "Defiler Magical Destruction" radius table, which is broken down by spell level and terrain type - the defiling radius in a forest starts at 1 yard and goes up to 3 yards for a 10th level spell, stony barrens begin at 5 yards for a 1st-level spell and go up to 16 yards for a 10th level spell, and the silt sea goes from 12 yards up to a whopping 34 yards. It also says that any spell cast within defiled land increases the overall radius by 1 additional yard if it's spell level is equal to or less than that of previous spell(s) cast, or if it's higher the radius increases to the appropriate radius for the new spells level.
So anyway, as far as explaining things...that sorta sounds like it's both - the silt sea is difficult to gather energy in because there is very little life energy in the silt itself (there must be some since there are still some plants that grow in it), and so the wizard is forced to gather the energy from a much larger radius in order to "get enough."
As a side-note, 2e didn't impose any penalties for defiling in a previously-defiled area - the radius just keeps explanding.
It also lists a "Defiler Magical Destruction" radius table, which is broken down by spell level and terrain type ...
snip
As a side-note, 2e didn't impose any penalties for defiling in a previously-defiled area - the radius just keeps explanding.
Fascinating, I did not recall that.
We do need a maximum distance. So what do people think?
Should it be Caster Level x 50 feet? or x 100 feet?
Should it be a set amount?
or
Should there be a progressive penalty, like a range increment to EG?
if there is a modifier based on character or class level.. being an advanced being should greatly magnify that..
As a side-note, 2e didn't impose any penalties for defiling in a previously-defiled area - the radius just keeps explanding.
Just as in the 3.5 rules. ;)