Am I missing something incredibly awesome about defiling that makes a defiler fundamentally more powerful than a preserver who doesn't have to spend feats to kill plants that's in the normal Dark Sun 3.5 write up from Athas.org or what? I know part of it's flavor but c'mon, there must be a mechanical advantage for defiling because otherwise why bother?
Has anyone else come up with any concrete systems that they use that are different? Thanks for reading this far :P
-X
Just to summarise the benefits of the athas.org defiler, though:
1) Creatures except the defiler caught within the defiling radius at casting time experience pain and suffer a -1 penalty to attack rolls, skill checks and saves, lasting one round. Plant creatures also suffer 2 hp damage x spell slot level expended (A 0-level spell inflicts 1 hp damage).
2) When defiling, a wizard can extend the casting time of her spells to 1 round and gain a +1 bonus to caster level. Her defiling radius increases by 5 ft.
3) The defiler can take feats that do more than just "hurt plant creatures mildly and make some people uncomfortable"
. Destructive Raze, Efficient Raze and Fast Raze all add punch to a defiler's spells, for example, and Controlled Raze and Distance Raze allow the defiler to determine where their defiling radius falls, to one degree or another, maximising its potential as a weapon.4) The defiler can take some trule unpleasant prestige classes that are unavailable to other casters (who have no similar options available to them).
(That said, I do agree that Dave Noonan's system from Dragon #315 is a fine piece of work. I use a combination of that and the athas.org system in my home DS games).
There was something about +1 caster level in Athas.org material when it goes to count spell eficiency, etc.
But i think that the specialists should write something about it first
There is a section in the DS3 FAQ at athas.org that covers why there are such differences between the athas.org defiler and the 2e defiler. I'll refer you to that, rather than repeat it here.
Yeah, and some of us still don't think that is enough. Thankfully there are other options that are just as good, if not better.
(That said, I do agree that Dave Noonan's system from Dragon #315 is a fine piece of work. I use a combination of that and the athas.org system in my home DS games).
Same here, though I am using the modifications that xlorepdarkhelm did to Noonan's system along with athas.org's.
Same here, though I am using the modifications that xlorepdarkhelm did to Noonan's system along with athas.org's.
Shei-Nad also had some really cool tweaks to that system. Makes for a very flexible approach.
Shei-Nad also had some really cool tweaks to that system. Makes for a very flexible approach.
Yeah, I think xlorep is using some of those tweaks too and adding on to them a bit if I remember his system correctly.
I definitely appreciate the tactics and such that you showed me as an example Kamelion, in regards to the defiling techniques to use your defiling radius as a secondary weapon to your actual spellcasting. To be honest the thoughts had not crossed my mind outside of the vein of "this makes my party unhappy to be around me" logic. Definitely something I should have thought more into and I appreciate you giving me such advice.
And yes, the David Noonan work on the defiling system is what I was talking about.
The reason why I came up with this thread was so I could talk to my DM about what my options were as far as my playing a psion / wizard and what I'd need to know to do when it came time to write Defiler or Preserver on the character sheet. There is a fairly apathetic to the environment Silt Cleric in my group as of right now and I'm not at all sure as to where I should stand on his future goals outside of his own creature comforts.
Thanks again!
-X
Defiling Rules
It blends both athas.orgs and noonan's mechanics into one.
. It helps having used these techniques on players from time to time, heh heh...This is the current system I use for defiling:
Defiling Rules
It blends both athas.orgs and noonan's mechanics into one.
I've been thinking about modifying the defiling rules in my campaign - I too think the benefits of defiling are too weak in DS3 (although I understand why). Maybe I'm thick or something Sysane, but could you explain how to apply the modifiers in your system? Preferrably through an example? I don't quite get it :embarrass
I've been thinking about modifying the defiling rules in my campaign - I too think the benefits of defiling are too weak in DS3 (although I understand why).
Well I've tried a different approach from the official one:
defiling and preserving are tecniques related to energy so the only real difference in the output is energetic (in input we have defiled soil and pain but this is a different matter)
when you chose to defile you can cast a spell he has ready (studied or charged slot since I use also sorcs) losing another spell of equal level or of one level less instead of the casted one.
This is really a powerful wariant, I know, but it represent a costant lure for preservers, since on Athas it happens freqently to run dry of resources....
naturally a preserver could defile if he wants, he can even mantain his preserver ability for a while.... But the evil D.M. has a secret metod
to determine when he lose his status.
Is it too unfair?
I've been thinking about modifying the defiling rules in my campaign - I too think the benefits of defiling are too weak in DS3 (although I understand why). Maybe I'm thick or something Sysane, but could you explain how to apply the modifiers in your system? Preferrably through an example? I don't quite get it :embarrass
This is kind of tough to explain thru a post, but I'll give it a shot.
There are two sets of modifiers for each metamagic effect on the chart. The first number is the modifier for wizards that have the corresponding metamagic feats. The second number is for wizards that don't have the corresponding metamagic feats. Keep in mind that the metamagic effect's modifier can not exceed the character's arcane spellcasting level.
Example: A 6th level wizard without the maximize spell feat can not use defiling in order to maximize a fireball because the modifier to maximize a spell without having the actual feat is 10. However, if the 6th level wizard had the maximize spell feat he would be able to apply the maximize effect to the fireball thru defiling due to the modifier, being a 4, which is lower than 6th level. A wizard without the maximize feat wouldn't be able to cast a maximized spell till they were at least 10th level
Hi, anyone see the rules from Dragon Magazine #315 and #319, also Dungeon #110 and #111, about DS, they have same good ideas. :lightbulb
... yes, we've seen them
:headexplo Let's just say that not everyone likes what those magazines did to Dark Sun. The Defiler rules were OK, those are the David Noonian rules mentioned above. Most everything else... well...:hoppingma :hoppingma :hoppingma :hoppingma
The reason why I came up with this thread was so I could talk to my DM about what my options were as far as my playing a psion / wizard and what I'd need to know to do when it came time to write Defiler or Preserver on the character sheet. There is a fairly apathetic to the environment Silt Cleric in my group as of right now and I'm not at all sure as to where I should stand on his future goals outside of his own creature comforts.
Thanks again!
-X
You can alway switch over to "the darkside" later on in your career as a wizard, but it's much harder to go back (and doing so comes at a price). Just thought I would mention that.
Go defiler and show them the true power of the dark side.
Use my method, go preserver, find a devious defiler menthor posing as a force of good and than slowly fall from grace, being cast in a lake of fire is optional :D
I've been thinking about modifying the defiling rules in my campaign - I too think the benefits of defiling are too weak in DS3 (although I understand why). Maybe I'm thick or something Sysane, but could you explain how to apply the modifiers in your system? Preferrably through an example? I don't quite get it :embarrass
I always though the defiler feats were powerful espicialy for the low level wizard/defiler. Gaining +3 caster levels for example can do wonderful things to spells like magic missile or scorching ray.
I always though the defiler feats were powerful espicialy for the low level wizard/defiler. Gaining +3 caster levels for example can do wonderful things to spells like magic missile or scorching ray.
Eh...how do you get the +3 levels? +1 from defiling, +2 from ?? Granted, the Destructive Raze feat is pretty good. However, wizards have a lot of feats they want to have (Maximize, Empower, Quicken, Creation feats, Spell Penetration, Spell Focus etc etc), so requiring feats to power up seems too excessive to me.
Eh...how do you get the +3 levels? +1 from defiling, +2 from ?? Granted, the Destructive Raze feat is pretty good. However, wizards have a lot of feats they want to have (Maximize, Empower, Quicken, Creation feats, Spell Penetration, Spell Focus etc etc), so requiring feats to power up seems too excessive to me.
+2 levels from defiling in a fertile area (or with efficent raze in a less fertile region)+ Fast Raze, Path Sinister can add another level (+4 total). Not to bad for 1 maybe two feats.
+2 levels from defiling in a fertile area (or with efficent raze in a less fertile region)+ Fast Raze, Path Sinister can add another level (+4 total). Not to bad for 1 maybe two feats.
Actually, the terrain modifiers only apply to caster level checks, not caster level. Though with Destructive Raze and Fast Raze, a 6th level caster can squeeze out 7d6+7 damage with a fireball or 4d4+8 with a magic missile..
Wizard 5/Arch Defiler 5
Feats: Agonizing Radius, Destructive Radius, Distance Raze, Empower Spell, Fast Raze, Great Fortitude, Maximize Spell, Scribe Scroll.
The defiler using his raze feats can cast an empowered fireball for 15d6+15 damage. With casting time metamagic, the defiler can also maximize the spell. That amounts to 92,5 points of damage on average. Using distant raze, the defiler imposes a -3 penalty to the victims' saves. In abundant or fertile terrains, the save DC also increases.
Use my method, go preserver, find a devious defiler menthor posing as a force of good and than slowly fall from grace, being cast in a lake of fire is optional
It would require your mother being kidnapped by gith. :P
It would require your mother being kidnapped by gith. :P
keep in mind to assure cooperation of your former mentor in the lake of fire jumping :D
An example defiler to show some of the potential that lies in the defiler.
Wizard 5/Arch Defiler 5
Feats: Agonizing Radius, Destructive Radius, Distance Raze, Empower Spell, Fast Raze, Great Fortitude, Maximize Spell, Scribe Scroll.
The defiler using his raze feats can cast an empowered fireball for 15d6+15 damage. With casting time metamagic, the defiler can also maximize the spell. That amounts to 92,5 points of damage on average. Using distant raze, the defiler imposes a -3 penalty to the victims' saves. In abundant or fertile terrains, the save DC also increases.
Hmm....that is pretty nice...pretty nice indeed! :evillaugh
Hmm....that is pretty nice...pretty nice indeed!
I should probably stick it in the FAQ.
I should probably stick it in the FAQ.
Yeah, good idea. I'd venture that seeing the potential of a defiler through an example would go a long way towards keeping the whining to a minimum :angelhide