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Fairwain Province

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
OleOneEye
Jan 22, 2006 2:07:17 Fairwain Province is proving difficult to fit within the Marklands map. I am torn between two methods:

1. Fairwain Province merely represents the personal land holdings that Svinri/Thrommel I held. As such, it only includes the present site of Chendl and perhaps 10-20 miles in each direction from the city. Due to being the personel holdings of King Thrommel I, it was accorded official status as equal to the other provinces.

2. Fairwain Province includes the lands bordered from the Crystal River in the north to the Att River in the south, the boundary with Kalinstren goes in a line from the headwaters of the Crystal River to the headwaters of the Att River, the boundary with the Viscounty of the March runs from the bend of the Crystal River down to Free Borough. This essentially cuts the Viscounty in half and places Brancast and Worlende within Fairwain.

Any thoughts on Fairwain's borders are highly welcome.
#2
zombiegleemax
Jan 22, 2006 7:06:05 Having looked through Marklands ("This gazetter divides the kingdom into seven provinces plus Chendl") and the LGG (which notes Fairwain as containing Chendl, the "royal capital"), I'd say that the bounds of Fairwain are limited to within about 10 leagues or less of the walls of Chendl.

It's possible (though unlikely) that Belvor might have extended the bounds of the province after the Wars, but given the power of the Seven Families, I doubt they'd welcome such exercise of central power - so I think that unlikely.

Fairwain is obviously royal land, but whether it's the extent of the royal estates is another matter. It's possible the king has personal lands scattered across the country under the supervision of local reeves responsible to him directly.

As a complete aside - I'd forgotten that biologically Belvor is only 59 as of 595 CY (thanks to those potions of longevity). A great age for Middle Ages Europe, but not atypical for other Flanaessi rulers (Grenell and Reydrich, for example, are older IIRC). There's life in that old dog yet...

P.
#3
crag
Jan 22, 2006 11:37:36 Woe is right looking at the Marklands "Fairwain Province" consists of the capital Chendl and surrounding land. The furyondy portion of the gazetter compares the relative weakness of the Kings of Furyondy and Nyrond mentioning the lack of "Royal holdings" to highlight a major difference in the two lands and explain the political strength of the "seven families" of Furyondy.

Simply put: Belvor has in theory near absolute royal power but due to his lack of land holdings which provide revenue, resources and men, in practise he must gain a consensus among his nobles to get anything done.

Think of it this way, the Aerdi had a mistrust of royal power in practise and it is interesting to note that as one gets further west from Rauxes the position of the King get more precarious, perhaps as the GH broke up the farthest flung provinces wanted to insure that their "Kings" didn't become Overking tyrants. Given the distance between the rebellious nobles and the Overking, the nobles simply siezed as much land and power as possible, the "royal arguments of central government and possible Overking retaliation was obviously less compelling within Furyondy then within Nyrond.

Rauxes Overking - largest holdings so the most independent action
Rel Mord (Nyrond) - Some holdings (Royal Province)
Chendl (Furyondy) - Least holdings (Capital and surrounding environs)

Just a thought...
#4
OleOneEye
Jan 23, 2006 1:05:58 It certainly makes sense that Fairwain province would only include the lands immediately surrounding Chendl. I like your hypothesis that royal lands diminish as one moves westward from Rauxes. As Dyvers was the Imperial capitol of the Viceroyalty of Ferrond, the provincial ruler would have lived in that city. Dyvers was part of the Gold County. Perhaps Svinri, the last provincial ruler, did not have any personal lands. He ruled with the authority of the Overking and Imperial gold. He would not necessarily need personal holdings. However, after Furyondy declared independence, Thrommel I soon discovered the need for his own holdings. Chendl was built within a couple decades of independence and the capitol moved there. Maybe Kalinstren and the Viscounty of the March donated the lands to become Fairwain province to the king in order to have the capitol bordering their provinces, somewhat similar to Washington D.C.'s founding.
#5
zombiegleemax
Jan 23, 2006 5:40:53 That's a good rationale Crag! And I like the thinking about Stinvri and Dyvers, OOE.

The Viceroy would have ruled with Imperial writ and need not have owned extensive lands himself in Ferrond, since he was, in effect, an office holder (and the overkings probably didn't want to appoint someone with a strong territorial powerbase, for fear they'd get ideas of independence - not that that precaution really worked).

As the Rax grew decadent with the ascension of Overking Zelcor (who in effect bought the Crown of Aerdy in 213 CY) and his heirs, they began to levy heavier taxes to fund their lavish lifestyles. As they were also extremely corrupt, their favourites and nobles in the heartlands could buy exemptions from these taxes. However, nobles in the far provinces (such as Ferrond) could not or did not. So the burden of the Imperial taxes fell disporportionaltely on them. This might have been tolerated if the Overking returned benefits in kind by investing in defending the western frontiers against increasingly troublesome Kettite raiders or in maintainance of roads etc. However, they didn't and resentment of Rauxes grew.

There's an interesting line in Marklands where it says that there were "many skirmishes" between Ferrondi forces and the Aerdi in reign of Stinvri. So it seems that it's not the case that Thrommel suddenly took it into his head to break way - but that his father was already bucking against Aerdi corruption (while trying to keep the empire intact) - or perhaps Stinvri was trying to keep a lid on things, while local Ferrondi magnates peroidically rebelled against central authority. Where Thrommel differed from his father was that he saw that the Great Kingdom had grown so corrupt at its core that it could no longer remain whole.
And so he broke it.

So Thrommel emerges as king of a sprawling realm, but with very little in the way of personal lands or power base (since all he inherited was his father's small estates (if he actually had any) as an imperial office holder). This means he has to rule with the consent of his vassals. And his vassals are very happy to make sure it stays this way - given their fears about him becoming another overking.

The move to Chendl makes sense if you consider how sprawling Old Ferrond was. Chendl would have been far more central than Dyvers. It also removed any associations with Aerdi rule that would have clung to the Viceroy's Palace in Dyvers. So the magnates grant the new city and the crown a small parcel of land. This allows them to keep a firm rein on the powers of the king, since if he gets uppity, they can (a) starve the city through blockade and (b) raise their own landed vassals and levies to resist any tyrannical moves by the king (who would only possess his own household guard and a standing army, whose pay depends on...taxes from the provinces).

The Marklands also mentions something about when Furyondy was freshly minted and quite far flung, the king needed strong nobles at home to counterbalance the size of the mini-empire. I'd interpret this as meaning that he had to keep the Seven Furyondy Families sweet so that they'd cooperate and bankroll his rule of the other provinces. There were probably tensions in early Furyondy between the selfish interests of the Seven Families and the Furyondi crown and the instincts of liberty and just and fair rule that had given birth to the kingdom in the first place.

While starting off idealistic, the Seven Families might have quickly gotten used to the power and wealth they had, standing as they did at the heart of the kingdom. This might have bred resentment in places like the Shield Lands, Perrenland, the Northern Reaches etc. We know that (like Nyrond) Furyondy had a short expansionist phase - when it annexed Bissel, no doubt to grab the vital trade nexus of Thornward, which would have been in the interests of the southern Furyondi nobles and the Gentry of Dyvers - since it cut out a middle man (and a layer of mark up) in the Great Western Road.

Given the libertarian foundations of the realm, this may have precipitated the calving off of Veluna (which ended Furyondy's adventure in Bissel) and the other fiefs. Faced with the prospect of becoming a new overking or letting the Velunese etc go, the king did the right thing. While the southern families would have been unhappy to lose Bissel, the others would have realised that establishing a precedent of the crown using force to crush dissent would be bad for them in the long run. Better to keep the king weak and lose some gold in the short term than be wealthy and unfree in the long term.

The weakness of the Furyondy kings may have kept them honest and true to the spirit of Thrommel I - since they seem, by and large to have ruled fairly and justly, letting provinces (such as Dyvers) calve off without the bloodshed seen in Aerdy (or Nyrond) for example.

P.
#6
OleOneEye
Jan 23, 2006 15:54:58 I am, quite simply, going to have to use that as the political basis for the founding of Furyondy. Very well thought out.

One thing that must be considered is the absolute weakness of the Furyondian kings. With holdings consisting of Chendl, the immediately surrounding territory, and scattered manors here and there, the king would be quite weak. I imagine each of the Seven Families being able to garner larger forces for the field than the king, but for the 2 months they must pledge their forces to the king each year. Further, by law of the land, the king have consent of the Noble Council for permission to do any royal act. Also, even the minor nobles of the Knightly Conclave have significant influence over the power of the king. It is likely that the kings of Furyondy wanted to keep the greater kingdom intact, but were unable to do so.

In fact, it appears there were only three kings in Furyondy's history that were of any consequence. Thrommel I was able to forge a unified concensus to overthrow the Overking's grip - though as Woesinger pointed out, he may not have been terribly influential in this regard. Whomever was king during the Short War was able to aggressively expand and push Keoland back - though this is only after Keoland had held half of Veluna (still a Furyondian province at the time) for nearly a century and the grim rule of Berlikyn made military action an absolute necessity. And finally Belvor IV - in response to the invasion of an evil demi-god that walks the earth, and he is only barely keeping the families in line at that.

Maybe the Families had a hand in the disappearence of Crown Prince Thrommel. With marriage to Jolene, he would have significant holdings from which to draw upon. Having significant personal holdings, King Thrommel would have been able to chip away at the power of the nobles in a manner that king had previously been able.

An incomplete history of the weakness of Furyondian kings:

254 CY Veluna is largely independent after Thrommel I throws off the Overking's rule, even though it is part of the kingdom.
254 CY The petty nobles of the Shield Lands refuse to acknowledge sovereignty of the king, he does nothing.
~300 CY The king seems to take no part in the trade war between Dyvers and Veluna.
320 CY The king was unable to prevent the Quaglands from declaring independence.
350 CY Keoland invades and conquers half of Veluna with no Furyondian opposition, holding it for nearly a century before Furyondy responds.
446 CY Veluna alowed to declare full independence from Furyondy.
479 CY The king does nothing about the growing power of Iuz during the next 26 years, despite the horrendous depredations committed on his subjects.
513 CY The king does nothing to halt the formation of the Horned Society.
526 CY Dyvers declared full independence, no action by the king.
570 CY The king does nothing about the return of Iuz.
Highfolk Even though highfolk has always officially been a part of Furyondy, no king has ever tried to exert his authority over it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 OleOneEye Jan 22, 2006 2:07:17	Fairwain Province is proving difficult to fit within the Marklands map. I am torn between two methods: 1. Fairwain Province merely represents the personal land holdings that Svinri/Thrommel I held. As such, it only includes the present site of Chendl and perhaps 10-20 miles in each direction from the city. Due to being the personel holdings of King Thrommel I, it was accorded official status as equal to the other provinces. 2. Fairwain Province includes the lands bordered from the Crystal River in the north to the Att River in the south, the boundary with Kalinstren goes in a line from the headwaters of the Crystal River to the headwaters of the Att River, the boundary with the Viscounty of the March runs from the bend of the Crystal River down to Free Borough. This essentially cuts the Viscounty in half and places Brancast and Worlende within Fairwain. Any thoughts on Fairwain's borders are highly welcome.
#2 zombiegleemax Jan 22, 2006 7:06:05	Having looked through Marklands ("This gazetter divides the kingdom into seven provinces plus Chendl") and the LGG (which notes Fairwain as containing Chendl, the "royal capital"), I'd say that the bounds of Fairwain are limited to within about 10 leagues or less of the walls of Chendl. It's possible (though unlikely) that Belvor might have extended the bounds of the province after the Wars, but given the power of the Seven Families, I doubt they'd welcome such exercise of central power - so I think that unlikely. Fairwain is obviously royal land, but whether it's the extent of the royal estates is another matter. It's possible the king has personal lands scattered across the country under the supervision of local reeves responsible to him directly. As a complete aside - I'd forgotten that biologically Belvor is only 59 as of 595 CY (thanks to those potions of longevity). A great age for Middle Ages Europe, but not atypical for other Flanaessi rulers (Grenell and Reydrich, for example, are older IIRC). There's life in that old dog yet... P.
#3 crag Jan 22, 2006 11:37:36	Woe is right looking at the Marklands "Fairwain Province" consists of the capital Chendl and surrounding land. The furyondy portion of the gazetter compares the relative weakness of the Kings of Furyondy and Nyrond mentioning the lack of "Royal holdings" to highlight a major difference in the two lands and explain the political strength of the "seven families" of Furyondy. Simply put: Belvor has in theory near absolute royal power but due to his lack of land holdings which provide revenue, resources and men, in practise he must gain a consensus among his nobles to get anything done. Think of it this way, the Aerdi had a mistrust of royal power in practise and it is interesting to note that as one gets further west from Rauxes the position of the King get more precarious, perhaps as the GH broke up the farthest flung provinces wanted to insure that their "Kings" didn't become Overking tyrants. Given the distance between the rebellious nobles and the Overking, the nobles simply siezed as much land and power as possible, the "royal arguments of central government and possible Overking retaliation was obviously less compelling within Furyondy then within Nyrond. Rauxes Overking - largest holdings so the most independent action Rel Mord (Nyrond) - Some holdings (Royal Province) Chendl (Furyondy) - Least holdings (Capital and surrounding environs) Just a thought...
#4 OleOneEye Jan 23, 2006 1:05:58	It certainly makes sense that Fairwain province would only include the lands immediately surrounding Chendl. I like your hypothesis that royal lands diminish as one moves westward from Rauxes. As Dyvers was the Imperial capitol of the Viceroyalty of Ferrond, the provincial ruler would have lived in that city. Dyvers was part of the Gold County. Perhaps Svinri, the last provincial ruler, did not have any personal lands. He ruled with the authority of the Overking and Imperial gold. He would not necessarily need personal holdings. However, after Furyondy declared independence, Thrommel I soon discovered the need for his own holdings. Chendl was built within a couple decades of independence and the capitol moved there. Maybe Kalinstren and the Viscounty of the March donated the lands to become Fairwain province to the king in order to have the capitol bordering their provinces, somewhat similar to Washington D.C.'s founding.
#5 zombiegleemax Jan 23, 2006 5:40:53	That's a good rationale Crag! And I like the thinking about Stinvri and Dyvers, OOE. The Viceroy would have ruled with Imperial writ and need not have owned extensive lands himself in Ferrond, since he was, in effect, an office holder (and the overkings probably didn't want to appoint someone with a strong territorial powerbase, for fear they'd get ideas of independence - not that that precaution really worked). As the Rax grew decadent with the ascension of Overking Zelcor (who in effect bought the Crown of Aerdy in 213 CY) and his heirs, they began to levy heavier taxes to fund their lavish lifestyles. As they were also extremely corrupt, their favourites and nobles in the heartlands could buy exemptions from these taxes. However, nobles in the far provinces (such as Ferrond) could not or did not. So the burden of the Imperial taxes fell disporportionaltely on them. This might have been tolerated if the Overking returned benefits in kind by investing in defending the western frontiers against increasingly troublesome Kettite raiders or in maintainance of roads etc. However, they didn't and resentment of Rauxes grew. There's an interesting line in Marklands where it says that there were "many skirmishes" between Ferrondi forces and the Aerdi in reign of Stinvri. So it seems that it's not the case that Thrommel suddenly took it into his head to break way - but that his father was already bucking against Aerdi corruption (while trying to keep the empire intact) - or perhaps Stinvri was trying to keep a lid on things, while local Ferrondi magnates peroidically rebelled against central authority. Where Thrommel differed from his father was that he saw that the Great Kingdom had grown so corrupt at its core that it could no longer remain whole. And so he broke it. So Thrommel emerges as king of a sprawling realm, but with very little in the way of personal lands or power base (since all he inherited was his father's small estates (if he actually had any) as an imperial office holder). This means he has to rule with the consent of his vassals. And his vassals are very happy to make sure it stays this way - given their fears about him becoming another overking. The move to Chendl makes sense if you consider how sprawling Old Ferrond was. Chendl would have been far more central than Dyvers. It also removed any associations with Aerdi rule that would have clung to the Viceroy's Palace in Dyvers. So the magnates grant the new city and the crown a small parcel of land. This allows them to keep a firm rein on the powers of the king, since if he gets uppity, they can (a) starve the city through blockade and (b) raise their own landed vassals and levies to resist any tyrannical moves by the king (who would only possess his own household guard and a standing army, whose pay depends on...taxes from the provinces). The Marklands also mentions something about when Furyondy was freshly minted and quite far flung, the king needed strong nobles at home to counterbalance the size of the mini-empire. I'd interpret this as meaning that he had to keep the Seven Furyondy Families sweet so that they'd cooperate and bankroll his rule of the other provinces. There were probably tensions in early Furyondy between the selfish interests of the Seven Families and the Furyondi crown and the instincts of liberty and just and fair rule that had given birth to the kingdom in the first place. While starting off idealistic, the Seven Families might have quickly gotten used to the power and wealth they had, standing as they did at the heart of the kingdom. This might have bred resentment in places like the Shield Lands, Perrenland, the Northern Reaches etc. We know that (like Nyrond) Furyondy had a short expansionist phase - when it annexed Bissel, no doubt to grab the vital trade nexus of Thornward, which would have been in the interests of the southern Furyondi nobles and the Gentry of Dyvers - since it cut out a middle man (and a layer of mark up) in the Great Western Road. Given the libertarian foundations of the realm, this may have precipitated the calving off of Veluna (which ended Furyondy's adventure in Bissel) and the other fiefs. Faced with the prospect of becoming a new overking or letting the Velunese etc go, the king did the right thing. While the southern families would have been unhappy to lose Bissel, the others would have realised that establishing a precedent of the crown using force to crush dissent would be bad for them in the long run. Better to keep the king weak and lose some gold in the short term than be wealthy and unfree in the long term. The weakness of the Furyondy kings may have kept them honest and true to the spirit of Thrommel I - since they seem, by and large to have ruled fairly and justly, letting provinces (such as Dyvers) calve off without the bloodshed seen in Aerdy (or Nyrond) for example. P.
#6 OleOneEye Jan 23, 2006 15:54:58	I am, quite simply, going to have to use that as the political basis for the founding of Furyondy. Very well thought out. One thing that must be considered is the absolute weakness of the Furyondian kings. With holdings consisting of Chendl, the immediately surrounding territory, and scattered manors here and there, the king would be quite weak. I imagine each of the Seven Families being able to garner larger forces for the field than the king, but for the 2 months they must pledge their forces to the king each year. Further, by law of the land, the king have consent of the Noble Council for permission to do any royal act. Also, even the minor nobles of the Knightly Conclave have significant influence over the power of the king. It is likely that the kings of Furyondy wanted to keep the greater kingdom intact, but were unable to do so. In fact, it appears there were only three kings in Furyondy's history that were of any consequence. Thrommel I was able to forge a unified concensus to overthrow the Overking's grip - though as Woesinger pointed out, he may not have been terribly influential in this regard. Whomever was king during the Short War was able to aggressively expand and push Keoland back - though this is only after Keoland had held half of Veluna (still a Furyondian province at the time) for nearly a century and the grim rule of Berlikyn made military action an absolute necessity. And finally Belvor IV - in response to the invasion of an evil demi-god that walks the earth, and he is only barely keeping the families in line at that. Maybe the Families had a hand in the disappearence of Crown Prince Thrommel. With marriage to Jolene, he would have significant holdings from which to draw upon. Having significant personal holdings, King Thrommel would have been able to chip away at the power of the nobles in a manner that king had previously been able. An incomplete history of the weakness of Furyondian kings: 254 CY Veluna is largely independent after Thrommel I throws off the Overking's rule, even though it is part of the kingdom. 254 CY The petty nobles of the Shield Lands refuse to acknowledge sovereignty of the king, he does nothing. ~300 CY The king seems to take no part in the trade war between Dyvers and Veluna. 320 CY The king was unable to prevent the Quaglands from declaring independence. 350 CY Keoland invades and conquers half of Veluna with no Furyondian opposition, holding it for nearly a century before Furyondy responds. 446 CY Veluna alowed to declare full independence from Furyondy. 479 CY The king does nothing about the growing power of Iuz during the next 26 years, despite the horrendous depredations committed on his subjects. 513 CY The king does nothing to halt the formation of the Horned Society. 526 CY Dyvers declared full independence, no action by the king. 570 CY The king does nothing about the return of Iuz. Highfolk Even though highfolk has always officially been a part of Furyondy, no king has ever tried to exert his authority over it.